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Angry Bob
2010-03-23, 10:23 AM
The idea: A character that can 'draw aggro' away from the fragiler team members, survive things that would kill the rest of the party twice, conserve the healbot's spell slots, and kick ass while Minor Change Shape'd into something incongruous, like a Disney Princess.

The build goes something like this, to eighth level:

1: Changeling Warblade, Able Learner
2: Lion Totem Barbarian
3: Fighter, Power attack, Improved Initiative
4: Fighter, Improved Toughness
5: Warshaper
6: Warshaper, Iron Will
7: Warshaper
8: Warshaper

Its will save leaves something to be desired, but it looks otherwise like it would work well.

That's to eighth level. After that, I don't know what class works best to keep doing what he's doing. Warblade seems best, but I'd like to see what the playground thinks. Assume standard WBL.

unre9istered
2010-03-23, 10:30 AM
If he's got a level of warblade, then he can use the maneuver to replace his will with a concentration check.

Angry Bob
2010-03-23, 11:03 AM
... I guess he can. Moment of perfect mind. Concentration's a warshaper class skill, and his constitution bonus should be absurd by the time dominate person rolls around.

What about other classes to keep advancing as? Prestige classes? Or is warblade the most logical choice?

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-23, 11:05 AM
You could be a shifter instead and go into weretouched master if you don't mind not looking like a disney princess. The capstone gives you crazy good stat boosts, and it has a bunch of nice other abilities. Just beware though, some crazy people will try and tell you that there was errata for the alternate form ability. Don't let them! It's all a conspiracy designed to kick puppies! :smalltongue:

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-03-23, 11:09 AM
While a Changeling can qualify for Warshaper with their Shapechanger subtype, consider the following from the beginning of the Warshaper's Class Features section:

"All of the following are class features of the warshaper prestige class. The class features function only when the warshaper is in a form other than her own."

Here is the ability that most would expect to enable the above:

"Minor Change Shape (Su): Changelings have the
supernatural ability to alter their appearance as though
using a disguise self spell that affects their bodies but not
their possessions. This is not an illusory effect but a minor
physical alteration of a changeling’s facial features, skin
color and texture, and size, within the limits described
for the spell. A changeling can use this ability at will,
and the alteration lasts until she changes shape again. A
changeling reverts to her natural form when killed. A true
seeing spell reveals her natural form. Using this ability is a
full-round action."

Note that if you made a Draconic Changeling character, you would gain two claw attacks. If that character used Minor Change Shape to appear as though they didn't have claws, they would not lose the use of their claw attacks, because they would still be in their own form. That is just one of many examples which illustrate that Minor Change Shape cannot be considered "a form other than (your) own" and so a Changeling could not benefit from any of the Warshaper's class features via this ability alone.

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-23, 11:11 AM
While a Changeling can qualify for Warshaper with their Shapechanger subtype, consider the following from the beginning of the Warshaper's Class Features section:

"All of the following are class features of the warshaper prestige class. The class features function only when the warshaper is in a form other than her own."

Here is the ability that most would expect to enable the above:

"Minor Change Shape (Su): Changelings have the
supernatural ability to alter their appearance as though
using a disguise self spell that affects their bodies but not
their possessions. This is not an illusory effect but a minor
physical alteration of a changeling’s facial features, skin
color and texture, and size, within the limits described
for the spell. A changeling can use this ability at will,
and the alteration lasts until she changes shape again. A
changeling reverts to her natural form when killed. A true
seeing spell reveals her natural form. Using this ability is a
full-round action."

Note that if you made a Draconic Changeling character, you would gain two claw attacks. If that character used Minor Change Shape to appear as though they didn't have claws, they would not lose the use of their claw attacks, because they would still be in their own form. That is just one of many examples which illustrate that Minor Change Shape cannot be considered "a form other than (your) own" and so a Changeling could not benefit from any of the Warshaper's class features via this ability alone.

Hmm, debatable of course. Do you think a shifter would qualify?

Angry Bob
2010-03-23, 11:13 AM
It's come up, but the DM okay'd it, saying I can consider Minor Change Shape an actual change of form as long as I don't leave everyone in the dust and murder every encounter on my own. When that happens, the character will dissolve into a pile of amorphous goo and be irretrievably dead.

Last Laugh
2010-03-23, 11:14 AM
take the racial emulation feat and take 2 levels of deepwarden. You may need to shuffle around your base classes to fit in some ranger to meet prereqs.
Inhuman reach and abberant blood are good. (15 ft range WITH YOUR ARMS.) why yes, you can reach the top shelf.

Angry Bob
2010-03-23, 11:22 AM
Sadly, Racial Emulation only lets you be treated as a member of that subtype for the purpose of using magic items keyed specifically to that type. And make babies with other humanoids that are guaranteed to be of the other race. But yeah.

Aberrant reach is also a good idea. Combine with mage slayer, perhaps? Since I don't have a caster level it doesn't inconvenience me, and I can now tank vs. casters.

AbyssKnight
2010-03-23, 08:29 PM
While a Changeling can qualify for Warshaper with their Shapechanger subtype, consider the following from the beginning of the Warshaper's Class Features section:

"All of the following are class features of the warshaper prestige class. The class features function only when the warshaper is in a form other than her own."

Here is the ability that most would expect to enable the above:

"Minor Change Shape (Su): Changelings have the
supernatural ability to alter their appearance as though
using a disguise self spell that affects their bodies but not
their possessions. This is not an illusory effect but a minor
physical alteration of a changeling’s facial features, skin
color and texture, and size, within the limits described
for the spell. A changeling can use this ability at will,
and the alteration lasts until she changes shape again. A
changeling reverts to her natural form when killed. A true
seeing spell reveals her natural form. Using this ability is a
full-round action."

Note that if you made a Draconic Changeling character, you would gain two claw attacks. If that character used Minor Change Shape to appear as though they didn't have claws, they would not lose the use of their claw attacks, because they would still be in their own form. That is just one of many examples which illustrate that Minor Change Shape cannot be considered "a form other than (your) own" and so a Changeling could not benefit from any of the Warshaper's class features via this ability alone.

If it is not "a form other than (your) own," then why would the ability include the following (all from your quote above):

"This is not an illusory effect but a minor physical alteration"
"reverts to her natural form when killed"
"true seeing spell reveals her natural form"

If you can "revert" or "reveal" a natural form, then logically you are not in your natural form while using the ability. Thus, Warshaper abilities would applly.

comicshorse
2010-03-23, 10:46 PM
Posted by Tinydwarfman

You could be a shifter instead and go into weretouched master if you don't mind not looking like a disney princess. The capstone gives you crazy good stat boosts, and it has a bunch of nice other abilities. Just beware though, some crazy people will try and tell you that there was errata for the alternate form ability. Don't let them! It's all a conspiracy designed to kick puppies!
Yesterday 04:03 PM

The Errata extends to the Stat. bonus at the final level, no more +16 Str

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-03-24, 12:02 AM
If it is not "a form other than (your) own," then why would the ability include the following (all from your quote above):

"This is not an illusory effect but a minor physical alteration"
"reverts to her natural form when killed"
"true seeing spell reveals her natural form"

If you can "revert" or "reveal" a natural form, then logically you are not in your natural form while using the ability. Thus, Warshaper abilities would applly.

Minor Change Shape has no effect on game mechanics, it is a cosmetic change and nothing more. Mechanically a character without that ability active is completely identical to when they have that ability active. Flavor text =/= rules, and cosmetic changes =/= mechanical changes. Mechanically the character is still in their own form, even if their outward appearance has been physically altered to appear differently. That their 'natural form' is reverted to or revealed under certain conditions is irrelevant. It could mean that if a Changeling character shaves her legs and armpits, there's still hair there when viewed by True Seeing and it instantly grows back upon her death.

PinkysBrain
2010-03-24, 01:09 AM
It gives you a bonus on your disguise checks.

HunterOfJello
2010-03-24, 01:36 AM
Why are you taking Lion Totem Barbarian? doesn't that just give you Run?

Whirling Frenzy alternative from UA might be more effective. With the one feat that lets you rage an extra 2 times per day you'd have extra attacks 3 times /day.

~~

For the record, the flavor of the warshaper states, "Warshapers must have some ability to change their form, and many are shapechangers such as doppelgangers and lycanthropes."

Changelings are by definition, "evolved from the mixing of doppelgangers and humans" and should therefore be able to qualify for the class.

~~

Which maneuvers and stance were you going to use? Are you using 2 weapons or one?

If you're using 2 weapons then Bloodclaw master could be good for you.

~~

Taking more levels of warblade could be useful. Uncanny dodge could be useful. And if you dip for 2 levels outside of warblade after your first level then take it at lvl 4 or later (for an IL of 3) you'd be able to grab either

Emerald Razor (turn melee strike into a touch attack)
or
Mountain hammer (+2d6 damage and overcome all DR and hardness).

Either of those maneuvers would be excellent to use against different enemies.

~~

Improved Toughness is great, Improved Initiative might not be worth taking a whole extra level of Fighter for though.

Greenish
2010-03-24, 01:43 AM
Why are you taking Lion Totem Barbarian? doesn't that just give you Run?Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian gives Pounce, which is what he meant.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-03-24, 01:49 AM
You can also use a Shapeshift Variant Ranger for all your shapeshifting needs. Sprinkle with Master of Many Forms to taste.

HunterOfJello
2010-03-24, 01:52 AM
Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian gives Pounce, which is what he meant.

ah! now that makes sense!


you can also get a pounce ability from Bloodclaw Master 3. you'd get low-light vision and an extra bloodclaw shift, but the pounce has limitations. spirit lion totem barbarian might be better

Angry Bob
2010-03-24, 06:16 AM
I've already said that my DM has already okayed the character, so whether or not he can actually qualify for warshaper by RAW is not in question.

Also, this character hasn't actually seen play yet, so the levels you see in the first post are just potential levels/feats that could change.

The maneuvers I'm looking at are definitely the one that gives you a concentration check as your will save, probably emerald razor and mountain hammer. At first level, I don't really know what stance to pick. I'm not dual wielding, so Bloodclaw Master doesn't look that great for this character.

Where's the Wildshape Ranger originally from?

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-24, 06:40 AM
Posted by Tinydwarfman


The Errata extends to the Stat. bonus at the final level, no more +16 Str

*gasp* You're part of the conspiracy too! They're everywhere! AAAAHHH!
Seriously, it was a joke. This is a classic case of over-nerfing.


Where's the Wildshape Ranger originally from?

Unearthed Arcana, Ranger trades combat style for wildshape like a druid.

AbyssKnight
2010-03-24, 08:23 AM
Minor Change Shape has no effect on game mechanics, it is a cosmetic change and nothing more. Mechanically a character without that ability active is completely identical to when they have that ability active. Flavor text =/= rules, and cosmetic changes =/= mechanical changes. Mechanically the character is still in their own form, even if their outward appearance has been physically altered to appear differently. That their 'natural form' is reverted to or revealed under certain conditions is irrelevant. It could mean that if a Changeling character shaves her legs and armpits, there's still hair there when viewed by True Seeing and it instantly grows back upon her death.

Minor Change Shape does have a mechanical effect, namely a skill bonus.

Mechanically, they are not in their own form, as the mechanics say that you can be "revealed" or "revert" to a different "natural" form. It doesn't matter if your statistics don't change. If I polymorph a human into another human, it is still a "form other than (his) own" even though mechanically he would be the exact same.

Warshaper simply states you must be in a form other than your own for its abilities to work. There is no requirement that this other form has different mechanical stats from you natural form. Minor Change Shape specifies it is a physical transformation, ergo Warshaper abilities work. Nothing in your post is a RAW argument against it.

Critical
2010-03-24, 08:27 AM
Feral Changeling, freeing up the Lion Totem Barbarian slot for something else. Also, if you want to tank, a Crusader is your best bet, even better - get a reach weapon, combat reflexes and Thicket of Blades stance and kill everything that moves.

unre9istered
2010-03-24, 08:38 AM
Feral doesn't get pounce without racial HD.

Critical
2010-03-24, 08:48 AM
Feral doesn't get pounce without racial HD.
Ow, right, for some reason I thought it was character's HD... :smallredface: Anyways, a good choice as it gives major stat boost and natural weapons.

Tokiko Mima
2010-03-24, 09:02 AM
If Changeling isn't an option, consider the fun of taking 6 levels of Dragonfire Adept, and choosing the Humanoid Form invocation. If you combine this with the Entangling Exhalation feat (RoD) you obtain the ability to annoy, damage and impede large swarms of enemies, every round. The only problem is your BAB will suck, so you might want to wait till level 8 to stop taking DFA and go into Warshaper. On the bright side, it really doesn't matter that your attack bonus is awful, since you probably won't be using it as a your primary attack.

Another plus is that, while DFA's don't gain any proficiency with armor.. the penalty for wearing armor you aren't proficient with is to your attack bonus, which DFA's don't need and can dump. So pump up that armor, shield and deflection AC as much as you want! Though I recommend wielding a weapon, if only so monsters can see that you threaten.

Angry Bob
2010-03-24, 03:42 PM
Also, for the sake of argument, it notes in Races of Eberron that changelings' minor change shape lets them be functionally male or female, something disguise self definitely doesn't do, another point for allowing it in other games.

subject42
2010-03-24, 03:49 PM
Sadly, Racial Emulation only lets you be treated as a member of that subtype for the purpose of using magic items keyed specifically to that type. And make babies with other humanoids that are guaranteed to be of the other race. But yeah.

What about stoneblessed? Or is that what you're discussing?

Angry Bob
2010-03-24, 03:57 PM
Racial Emulation is a feat from Races of Eberron. Stoneblessed is Races of Stone prestige class that, at third level, lets you count as a Goliath, Gnome, or Dwarf for any reason.

jiriku
2010-03-24, 05:58 PM
I would also be inclined in the direction of wildshape ranger, if only for the greatly increased versatility of form that you get (free pounce in cat and raptor forms doesn't suck either). You can also beef up your damage potential by wildshaping into a form that has multiple natural attacks, then using warshaper to beef up the damage dice on those attacks. This provides me with an amusing mental image.