Redcloak vs Crazy Theurge [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Thomar_of_Uointer

2010-03-23, 10:59 AM

Redcloak, of course. Redcloak has more cleric levels, which means he can probably command any undead she has, turning them against her. And in a straight-up magical fight, Redcloak can dust her with a few level 9 spells (she probably doesn't have anything higher than 6th level.)

The reason Redcloak let her verbally beat him was because she brought up his brother, Right-Eye, ("Wrong-Eye") which is a sore spot for him. Redcloak has principles, but he's being forced to sacrifice them for the sake of the plan to control the gates.

DBJack

2010-03-23, 11:14 AM

If Redcloak has his army, she's got Xykon. Xykon probably trusts her more than Redcloak and if he flipped out and attacked her, he'd probably step in. Especially now that she knows the ritual too. She just needs to level a little.

pendell

2010-03-23, 11:25 AM

I don't see Xykon standing up for Tsukiko. If she can't defend herself from Redcloak, she doesn't deserve her place on Team Evil. Xykon would probably sit back and bet on their life or death.

Redcloak can cast 'harm' while Tsukiko's best clerical spell is 'inflict critical wounds'. Redcloak is also the Bearer of the Crimson Mantle, a divine artifact whose known powers include:

1. Protection from magical disease (see SOD).
2. Prolonged life.

This isn't even a contest. Redcloak can probably make any saving throw she dishes out, command her undead, and hit her with Destruction or Plane Shift or whatever. I'm surprised he hasn't already, in fact.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Forever Curious

2010-03-23, 11:28 AM

Starbuck_II

2010-03-23, 11:30 AM

pendell

2010-03-23, 11:56 AM

From issue 1 of the comic to the present, has anyone below epic level managed to hit Redcloak with a spell and made it stick?

I suspect he's got saving throws out the wazoo.

The correct antidote to Redcloak is a melee monster + some kind of anti-magic shell to prevent him escaping with word of recall or whatever. He doesn't seem to have nearly the melee capability of , say, a Durkon. O-chul almost killed him with an iron bar. Miko would have killed him if Xykon hadn't intervened.

So have a melee fighter tackle redcloak, but I don't think going spell-to-spell is a doable proposition unless you're epic.

So Tsukiko's best strategy is to dominate another Thanh or what not and sic 'em on Redcloak.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Optimystik

2010-03-23, 11:59 AM

O-chul almost killed him with an iron bar. Miko would have killed him if Xykon hadn't intervened.

To be fair, O-Chul and Miko could have probably laid the smack down on Tsukiko also.

I too think Redcloak would win, and I think having him rebuke some of her 'children' and force them to tear her limb from limb would be extremely poetic justice. :smallamused:

Kobold-Bard

2010-03-23, 12:03 PM

Is this a Start of Darkness reference, or did I miss something?

Also, agreed with the consensus that Redcloak wins. But Tsukiko's still awesome...(is a shameless Tsukiko fan).

Yes it is. Widely known, but should probably still have been spoilered.

+1 for Tsukiko, I love the Mystic Theurge, so anyone who makes them look good is ok in my book.

Still think she should be a True Necromancer, but that's just me.

Roderick_BR

2010-03-23, 12:12 PM

Ms. T can Enervate the heck out of Redcloak: each negative lv = 1 highest lv spell slot lost from Redcloak.
If she lacks metamagic than oh well, otherwise: she can totally blast the spells out of him.
That would be every 2 negative levels, but yeah. And after that, RedCloak uses a single death ward (giving his level and experience, he may keep one for emergencies, either prepared or in scroll,wand,etc). Losing his highest level spells still doesn't weaken him enough, though the lost action to use it may give Tsukiko an advantage.

Worira

2010-03-23, 12:32 PM

Redcloak is smart enough to have Death Ward cast before fighting Tsukiko.

Kobold-Bard

2010-03-23, 12:34 PM

Redcloak is smart enough to have Death Ward cast before fighting Tsukiko.

And probably Spell Resistance too, which would be particularly potent against her if she hasn't bumped her CL up to normal levels.

Shale

2010-03-23, 12:36 PM

It would be smart for Redcloak to always have Death Ward active, given who he hangs around with most of the time.

mucat

2010-03-23, 12:49 PM

Who would be the winner in a fight between Tsukiko and Redcloak?

In a fight between yourself and your most bitter professional rival, who would win? The answer (I hope) is that you never gave it any thought because it doesn't matter; that's not how this kind of thing works.

Now, Redcloak and Tsukiko deal with a slightly more cutthroat work environment than most people, and assassination really is an option for them...but right now, neither of them can afford the consequences. Redcloak is definitely stronger in a fright, but if he had just blasted Tsukiko to dust in the prison courtyard, Xykon might well have decided that was the last straw, and forced Redcloak to resurrect her as his last living act.

If Tsukiko did decide to kill Redcloak, she would have to time her move when he's vulnerable enough to take down (have some sneaky undead take him out while he sleeps, for example.) Difficult, but she's clever, and might just pull it off...but again, Xykon probably would not tolerate anyone but himself killing Redcloak.

So the real answer to "who would win" is: whoever first maneuvered themself into a strong enough political position that they could afford to try.

Optimystik

2010-03-23, 12:51 PM

factotum

2010-03-23, 01:09 PM

And in a straight-up magical fight, Redcloak can dust her with a few level 9 spells (she probably doesn't have anything higher than 6th level.)

There's zero evidence that Redcloak is high enough level to have 9th level spells--the highest we've seen him cast is 8th (the Extended Summon Monster he used at the Battle for Azure City).

Ancalagon

2010-03-23, 02:28 PM

There's zero evidence that Redcloak is high enough level to have 9th level spells--the highest we've seen him cast is 8th (the Extended Summon Monster he used at the Battle for Azure City).

Yes, but he already had 7th level spells at the end of SoD, which means he was at least (including) level 15 when the Order entered the Dungeon of Dorukan.
He needs to be level 17 to cast two Level 9 spells (one normal, one domain-spell). It's not unlikely to assume he has gotten two levels in between.

As I said several times before: If he does not have level 9 spells, he should be very close to getting them.

There is no way Tsukiko can beat a level 18 cleric (with an artefact cloak that might have some interesting effects beyond what we do know). All Redcloak had to do was to turn one of her wights before the first wight reaches him and Tsukiko can kiss her levels goodbye - even before Redcloak cast something.

As for Xykon... he would probably order them to wait with the fight until he has organised some popcorn.

Ferrous

2010-03-23, 03:08 PM

Let us not forget at least two notable encounters previous to this one that would shed some light on the matter.

Redcloak vs. High Priest of the southern gods? Redcloak is the winner (with apparently making a lot of saving throws, and eventually overcoming the priest's ability to resist his attacks.

T vs. Haley? Haley put up a damn good fight, and I'd wager that it'd be even if T didn't have help from Thanh. Granted, Haley had magic items to help her in combat, but T had plenty of allies.

sihnfahl

2010-03-23, 03:11 PM

Redcloak vs. High Priest of the southern gods? Redcloak is the winner (with apparently making a lot of saving throws, and eventually overcoming the priest's ability to resist his attacks.
It would have gone on longer if the HPOTSG didn't forget his save modifiers... :smallwink:

The Pink Ninja

2010-03-23, 03:38 PM

Redcloak would destroy Tsu. He was adventuring before she was born. I'd say the gaps between them is bigger than the one between Xyclops and Darth V

But if he did kill Tsu then Xyclops would have butchered hundreds of Goblins to punish him.

factotum

2010-03-23, 03:44 PM

But if he did kill Tsu then Xyclops would have butchered hundreds of Goblins to punish him.

More likely, he'd just force Redcloak to raise her from the dead. Having to resurrect his hated enemy that way would be far more irritating to Redcloak than a few hundred goblin deaths.

Rin_Hunter

2010-03-23, 03:46 PM

Still think she should be a True Necromancer, but that's just me.

:smalleek:

Dread Necromancer if we're going to give her variant classes, but I'll save that for another time...

---

And despite how much I love the undead, Redcloak would win easily. People have been pointing out how high his saves are, so maybe the Crimson Mantle is also a Cloak of Resistance +5 or something.

Kobold-Bard

2010-03-23, 03:48 PM

:smalleek:

Dread Necromancer if we're going to give her variant classes, but I'll save that for another time...

---

And despite how much I love the undead, Redcloak would win easily. People have been pointing out how high his saves are, so maybe the Crimson Mantle is also a Cloak of Resistance +5 or something.

I know it's terrible, but it's literally what she is; a Necromancy-obsessed dual caster.

Deca

2010-03-23, 03:53 PM

Redcloak would win. Really, the only reason Tsukiko is still alive now is because Xykon currently favours her over Redcloak.

salinan

2010-03-23, 09:26 PM

Zevox

2010-03-23, 09:29 PM

(Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought most offensive cleric spells were touch range only?)
Most are. But not all. Flame Strike, for instance, which we saw Redcloak use in Start of Darkness.

Or Disintegrate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0480.html), which Redcloak has from one of his domains, and which would probably smoke Tsukiko all on its own since two of her classes have poor fortitude saves and hp.

Zevox

salinan

2010-03-23, 09:37 PM

Thanks - I'd forgotten about both of those. :smallsmile:

Optimystik

2010-03-23, 09:47 PM

Or Disintegrate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0480.html), which Redcloak has from one of his domains, and which would probably smoke Tsukiko all on its own since two of her classes have poor fortitude saves and hp.

What's interesting is that the same spell can even smoke Xykon - if he gets lucky. Foreshadowing?

Thanatosia

2010-03-23, 09:48 PM

Why is everyone assuming that Tsukiko would a) stay on the ground (she is able to fly) and b) stay within touch range of Redcloak in a fight? (Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought most offensive cleric spells were touch range only?)
Or he could just dispell her fight and laugh as she goes SPLAT, one of the best things about having a huge caster level advantage is nearly guaranteed dispell checks.

Zevox

2010-03-23, 09:50 PM

What's interesting is that the same spell can even smoke Xykon - if he gets lucky. Foreshadowing?
Considering the results when epic V tried that (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html), I wouldn't be so sure. Plus Xykon has several advantages on Tsukiko here, including d12 hit die from being a Lich and higher fortitude saves from not multiclassing and being epic level.

Zevox

salinan

2010-03-23, 09:55 PM

What about counterspelling? we know that Tsukiko goes to bed with more spells prepared than Redcloak starts the day with (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html).

I'm guessing that the level of the spells available to Redcloak is the issue there though.

Zevox

2010-03-23, 09:58 PM

That, and counterspelling isn't easy to begin with. She needs to either have prepared the exact spell he uses or burn a Dispel Magic on it, and in the latter case it only works if she makes her dispel check. Which is unlikely since she's both lower level than him and at least 3 caster levels below her actual level, being a Mystic Theurge and all. Not to mention she needs to ready an action to do it each round, leaving her unable to do anything else aside from move.

Zevox

multilis

2010-03-23, 10:01 PM

Depends on details, eg O'Chul beat Redcloak. No holy symbol, no spells, power of ambush/surprise.

Word of recall is less effective if the attacker knows where you are recalled to and prepares a trap ahead of time.

Optimystik

2010-03-23, 10:05 PM

Considering the results when epic V tried that (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html), I wouldn't be so sure.

If you'll recall, V's problem was trance deprivation (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0629.html) screwing up his aim. (The disintegrate went wonky because of Xykon's deflection AC.)

So RC just needs a good night's sleep first :smalltongue:
(He also has higher BAB.)

Plus Xykon has several advantages on Tsukiko here, including d12 hit die from being a Lich and higher fortitude saves from not multiclassing and being epic level.

Zevox

The fort saves from Epic are cancelled out by his massive penalty to fort saves from having no Con score. Disintegrate is a lich-killer.

mucat

2010-03-23, 11:55 PM

Which is unlikely since she's both lower level than him and at least 3 caster levels below her actual level, being a Mystic Theurge and all.
Naw, she'll have Practiced Spellcaster to avoid the lost caster levels. A Mystic Theurge without that feat would be like a druid without Natural Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0354.html)!

factotum

2010-03-24, 02:19 AM

If you'll recall, V's problem was trance deprivation (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0629.html) screwing up his aim.

Once he became spliced he was fully replenished, as far as we can tell--certainly he showed no signs of trance deprivation when Durkon removed the paralysis Xykon left on him, so poor aim had nothing to do with anything that happened during the fight with Xykon.

thubby

2010-03-24, 02:47 AM

Elfey

2010-03-24, 03:45 AM

Like this, but less saving throws for our favorite boat-eyed necrophiliac

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html

lord_khaine

2010-03-24, 04:31 AM

i actually think tsukiko could win if they were just stuck in a room together. she knows his opening spells, which means she can counter them easily enough, and with her monstrous s/d, she can cast quickened spells after the counter is set up.
she could even enervate his high power stuff away with a little help from a quickened spell metamagic rod.

No, in the case of a sudden deathmach-locked room scenario RC would proberly win in first round, all it would take is a singel destruction or disintegrate from RC to end the fight, and there really isnt anything she can do to counter that, nor is there anything she can cast that would realisticly take RC down in a singel round.

pendell

2010-03-24, 07:40 AM

Check me on this, but if Tsukiko wants to assassinate Redcloak, she's going to need high-level, living allies. She won't find them among the fanatical goblinoids of Azure City.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Ancalagon

2010-03-24, 07:56 AM

Actually, I think the best move Redcloak, from his point if view, could do was to kill Tsukiko. Right now.

They never liked each other but now he can deduct that Xykon tells her things she really, really should not know (from his point of view). If Xykon gives her psychological leverage over him he should really worry what's up.

The logical step he should go for self-preservation would be to set a trap in a dark ally, get some goblins and simply kill Tsukiko and disintegrate her body.
He IS evil after all.

Xykon might not like it but what can he do afterwards? Hell, Redcloak can even admit directly to him he disintegrated her. "You knew I did not like her and you knew I already had tried to kill her.
We are Team Evil, so if you wanted to keep her, you should have told me. Now she's dust and I like it that way... Sir".

That Xykon-Tsukiko-Relationship (no, not in the way she wants it!) is something Redcloak should "end" as soon as he can.

(And before a new debate arises: yes, it'd be evil and yes, it'd probably be murder. But Redcloak IS an evil guy.)

DeltaEmil

2010-03-24, 08:19 AM

Sheesh, Xykon doesn't care at all what happens with Tsukiko. He also doesn't care at all what happens with Redcloak, for that matter. Xykon want's a bunch of high-level undead to accompany him to the next gate. It's Tsukiko's and Redcloak's job to create them, so that once the phylactery has been found, they can immediately depart from this city. If Tsukiko bites it, then Redcloak has to create them himself per Xykon's command. Xykon wouldn't waste his time to hear any excuses from Redcloak. He'll just order him to make a bunch of Death Knights, Wraiths, Devourers, Nightgaunts and other undead monstrosities asap. And if there aren't any human slaves and high-level adventurers to make these from their corpses, then a bunch of goblinoids will have to do. Fresh corpses...
In fact, talking back to Xykon and boring him with such details will only ensure that the lich will dismember him and make a new goblinoid the subservient bearer of the crimson mantle who will obey every whim of the sorceror.

Ancalagon

2010-03-24, 08:32 AM

Sheesh, Xykon doesn't care at all what happens with Tsukiko.

Actually, I'm not that sure about that anymore.
He'd at least annoyed by Redcloak killing as he surely knows that Redcloak can assume Xykon would not want her to lose such a valuable asset. Or, to simplify it: Xykon would know it'd be an act of revolution by Redcloak and he might not ignore that.

Also, we do have some reason to believe Xykon at least wants to find out about the ritual and maybe re-create it or have a way to replace Redcloak at all.

But this question how Xykon would react only distracts from the point that Redcloak does have a problem and that he can already know about it.

Kobold-Bard

2010-03-24, 08:38 AM

If RC kills Tsukiko then Xykon will line up every goblin in the city by force and execute them one by one until RC falls back in line.

He doesn't give a damn about RC or Tsukiko, but he knows that the welfare of the Goblins is all RC cares about, and considering the thousands of them that there are in azure City, that's a hell of a sword hanging over RC's head.

Ancalagon

2010-03-24, 08:42 AM

If RC kills Tsukiko then Xykon will line up every goblin in the city by force and execute them one by one until RC falls back in line.

Like... Redcloak un-kills her again? Remember, she's disintegrated.

Note I did not say "He should abandon Xykon". I said "He should kill Tsukiko".

Snake-Aes

2010-03-24, 08:48 AM

Xykon does not have to exercise any kind of force to coerce redcloak into doing anything he wants. As long as Xykon's attitude does not directly threaten the Plan, redcloak will swallow anything.

DeltaEmil

2010-03-24, 08:53 AM

Like... Redcloak un-kills her again? Remember, she's disintegrated.

Note I did not say "He should abandon Xykon". I said "He should kill Tsukiko".Redcloak would have to use True Ressurection.

As long as Xykon gets bothered by Redcloak's actions, whatever they may be (talking without being allowed to do so, wasting more time in occupied Azure City, hindering Xykon's undead-recruitment), Redcloak pays for it.

Kobold-Bard

2010-03-24, 08:57 AM

Like... Redcloak un-kills her again? Remember, she's disintegrated.

Note I did not say "He should abandon Xykon". I said "He should kill Tsukiko".

Why would he revive her? Xykon needs a Divine Caster, he seems to be moving towards Tsukiko but if needsbe he can just crush RC's soul into even littler pieces.

Zherog

2010-03-24, 09:09 AM

Redcloak would have to use True Ressurection.

No, he can use resurrection.

The condition of the remains is not a factor. So long as some small portion of the creature’s body still exists, it can be resurrected, but the portion receiving the spell must have been part of the creature’s body at the time of death. (The remains of a creature hit by a disintegrate spell count as a small portion of its body.) The creature can have been dead no longer than 10 years per caster level.

Ancalagon

2010-03-24, 09:15 AM

Why would he revive her?

My point is: He would not. He killed here in the first place. Which he probably should do before it's too late.

Kobold-Bard

2010-03-24, 09:19 AM

My point is: He would not. He killed here in the first place. Which he probably should do before it's too late.

But he can't kill her. Because if he does then Xykon fills hundreds of Goblins as punishment. Unless the Goblins can be guaranteed safety he will never risk moving against Xykon, which includes killing his new pet Mage.

Ancalagon

2010-03-24, 09:27 AM

But he can't kill her. Because if he does then Xykon fills hundreds of Goblins as punishment.

We do know that?

The question if that would happen is still one that can be debated. And quite some people seem to think Xykon does not care about Tsukiko at all.

Unless the Goblins can be guaranteed safety he will never risk moving against Xykon, which includes killing his new pet Mage.

We all do know (from SoD to all that happened today) that it is quite likely Redcloak WILL grow some spine before the end. And it has to start somewhere.
A quite valid point to start that would be a scene when someone Redcloak really hates starts to bring up the "Eye-thing"... oh...

As I see it, Xykon is so sure about Redcloak being his bitch that he pushes and pushes and pushes and we all know that pushing and pushing and pushing is not always a good idea.
Redcloak IS going to act someday. And Tsukiko would just be an awesome stand-in-target for whom he actually wants to - but cannot! - hit!

Scorpions__

2010-03-24, 09:27 AM

:elan: Redcloak is a more major character, he wins with his superior status on the plot hierarchy.

DM[F]R

pendell

2010-03-24, 09:31 AM

As long as Xykon gets bothered by Redcloak's actions, whatever they may be (talking without being allowed to do so, wasting more time in occupied Azure City, hindering Xykon's undead-recruitment), Redcloak pays for it.

We don't know that Xykon would especially care if Redcloak killed Tsukiko. Tsukiko has put a great deal of effort into sucking up to Xykon, but I suspect that has very little impact on him. Xykon gets enjoyment only from the suffering of others. He could end her in a moment if he got bored enough.

I have to wonder how much of their rivalry Xykon encourages. If one kills the other, well and good. If they kill each other, Xykon will simply give another goblin priest the Crimson Mantle, and another Redcloak will exist in another body.

Ultimately, so long as the wearers of the Mantle are replaceable, Xykon can afford to expend either of them. I suspect his sole interest is the entertainment their rivalry provides him. If one kills the other, that is well; another would-be rival will be along soon enough.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Ancalagon

2010-03-24, 09:35 AM

:elan: Redcloak is a more major character, he wins with his superior status on the plot hierarchy.

Well, THAT reasoning worked out quite reliably for Roy... or did it? Dun Dun DUN...

Eldariel

2010-03-24, 09:49 AM

Well, THAT reasoning worked out quite reliably for Roy... or did it? Dun Dun DUN...

All that means is that Xykon is actually the main character and the whole OOTS is a red herring. Which makes sense; bunch of wannabe-good aligned misfits (and Belkar) traveling the world doing not much vs. a crazy, undead epic caster with unclear goals? Of course the epic caster is more interesting!

Souhiro

2010-03-24, 09:58 AM

Well, Tsukiko can teleport herself and six writght as wasseen here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0513.html). So, she has a friggin arcane CL 18. But she could have used some metamagic feat to achieve that feat:

Empower Spell, so she could have teleported four wrights, for a CL 12, but that would have needed a Lvl7 Spell Slot, making her efective arcane level 13 or 14)

Tsukiko MAY BE at CL18, but don't have enough INT to learn high level spells. And while RedCloak sticks to core spells, Tsukiko seeks help in non-core material.

About raw power, I think that Tsukiko can gain the upper hand of redcloak (Just fireball-Quicken fireball at him, and keep it until that red blanket of him burns) but at the Evil Ladder is

( :xykon: > :redcloak: > Tsukiko ) < :belkar: (in a non-roy timeline)

My vote would go for redcloack, for his +5 plot armor

Souhiro

2010-03-24, 10:06 AM

Well, THAT reasoning worked out quite reliably for Roy... or did it? Dun Dun DUN...

Well, that's the matter: If Xykon gets destroyed, nobody would raise him back. If RedCloak is killed, outside of Gobbotopia, nobody would resurrect him. If tsukiko gets slaughtered, nobody would resurrect her (perhaps Xykon would animate her, but without free will)

But when Roy get's himself killed, he still had his companions, his friends, who went through MANY hells to resurrect him.

Herald Alberich

2010-03-24, 10:18 AM

Well, Tsukiko can teleport herself and six writght as wasseen here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0513.html). So, she has a friggin arcane CL 18.

Actually, it seems like Teleport has less-stringent requirements for taking people with you in OotS than in straight D&D. The no-name Azurite wizard who couldn't see any purpose in life could also teleport six people besides himself (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0340.html). I highly doubt a level-18 wizard would be so depressed and relegated to courier duty.

Doug Lampert

2010-03-24, 10:27 AM

To be fair, O-Chul and Miko could have probably laid the smack down on Tsukiko also.

I too think Redcloak would win, and I think having him rebuke some of her 'children' and force them to tear her limb from limb would be extremely poetic justice. :smallamused:

Rebuke undead can't take control of a powerful created undead, not even from a much much weaker character. You only get to rebuke HD<=1/2 your cleric levels. But you can animate a 20 HD creature at level 5 with minimal effort. And Testuko regularly casts teleport. She can escape anything undead that Redcloak can throw at her and she can create undead that Redcloak can't Rebuke.

Rebuke and turn don't scale well since they depend on target HD and undead HD are some of the crappiest out there.

(Which is also a partial answere to the "who wins" question. No one. T isn't a total idiot, she'd teleport away from anything like a fair fight, and R has no way to follow, unless R starts the fight with a dimensional binding or has nineth level spells for Miracle.)

Doug Lampert

2010-03-24, 10:35 AM

Like... Redcloak un-kills her again? Remember, she's disintegrated.

Note I did not say "He should abandon Xykon". I said "He should kill Tsukiko".

From the SRD description of the SEVENTH level cleric spell Resurrect. One we absolutely KNOW RC can cast:

The condition of the remains is not a factor. So long as some small portion of the creature’s body still exists, it can be resurrected, but the portion receiving the spell must have been part of the creature’s body at the time of death. (The remains of a creature hit by a disintegrate spell count as a small portion of its body.) The creature can have been dead no longer than 10 years per caster level.

What's left from a disintigrate is specifically and explicitely enough that all you've done is cost yourself 5,000 extra GP in diamonds when forced to bring her back.

Redcloak would have to use True Ressurection.

No he wouldn't. Which is GOOD since we don't know if he has that spell. But we absolutely know he has Ressurection, and it's good enough.

SoC175

2010-03-24, 01:59 PM

Naw, she'll have Practiced Spellcaster to avoid the lost caster levels. A Mystic Theurge without that feat would be like a druid without Natural Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0354.html)!
Well, she would need to take it twice, that would be two feat slots less than redcloak before factoring in the level difference.

Lupy

2010-03-24, 03:18 PM

Redcloak, hands down. He's probably 3 levels higher than her, he went toe to toe with Miko for several rounds, and she was ~18 at the time.

Asta Kask

2010-03-24, 03:23 PM

he went toe to toe with Miko for several rounds, and she was ~18 at the time.

Yeah, but two of her levels were monk levels...

Kobold-Bard

2010-03-24, 04:17 PM

Yeah, but two of her levels were monk levels...

Two Monk Levels are amazing. AC bonuses, +3 to all Saves, Evasion plus other stuff. They more than make up for a single lost BAB.

It's after those two levels where things start to go downhill. Monk is great as long as you get out quick.

PallElendro

2010-03-24, 05:29 PM

Tsukiko is a theurge, so she needs to cast divine and arcane spells, as shown by Cure Critical Wounds, Fireball, Acid Orb, Fire Orb, Cold Orb, Create Undead, Dominate Person, Flame Strike, etc., evidently, if she put some divine power in, she'd be at least half as powerful in the terms of divines, and pretty good at the terms of arcana. She has an undead army pretty much able to be Commanded.

Redcloak is a pure cleric, and can cast a bunch of spells, particularly those that can max out as well as Flame Strike, Harm, Slay Living, Animate Dead, and Heal. As a result, he can do anything within the domains of Evil, and something else, I'm not sure. This way, he can do some serious damage, as well as his own healing if he conserves some spell slots for heals. He has a hobgoblin horde at 1 HD, easily can be killed with some area-effect spells, and Xykon's right-hand man.

As a result, Tsukiko can do major damage with her arcana and harming divine power, and owns some pretty deadly undead, (wights, ghasts, ghouls) and some good power in her bones.

Redcloak has some spell slots, but has to be conserved should he need to heal himself in the Tsukiko-Redcloak fight, but has very deadly attacks, and pretty well-rounded Inflict Wounds or Destruction attacks, but has a 1 Hit Dice hobgoblin army, Tsukiko having a 6+ HD undead army in her command.

It's a pretty fair tie, I'd say, unless Xykon intervenes and sides with another, which I'd deem to be an impossibility.

Herald Alberich

2010-03-24, 09:40 PM

As a result, he can do anything within the domains of Evil, and something else, I'm not sure.

I'm not sure if it's known that Evil is one of his domains, but the other is Destruction. He wouldn't get Disintegrate otherwise. Plus, he used the Smite power in SOD.

Red XIV

2010-03-24, 10:35 PM

T vs. Haley? Haley put up a damn good fight, and I'd wager that it'd be even if T didn't have help from Thanh. Granted, Haley had magic items to help her in combat, but T had plenty of allies.
It's also mentioned that Haley and Tsukiko had fought before, with Tsukiko having to flee on account of none of her spells being able to hit Haley. Hence her adding a non-core spell to her repertoire that didn't give Haley a reflex save opportunity.

Chainsaw Hobbit

2010-03-29, 07:37 PM

Tsukiko would win, shes wwaaaayyy more awesome and totaly hot!

Kewpa

2010-03-29, 08:25 PM

Tsukiko would win, shes wwaaaayyy more awesome and totaly hot!

Heck yeah, stick figures are hot.

I wouldn't side with the gobbos, but out of the somewhat honorable(some things aside) goblin fighting for his people and the necrophiliac psychopath, Id hope Redcloak was the one that got out alive.

Sholos

2010-03-30, 02:32 PM

Tsukiko would win, shes wwaaaayyy more awesome and totaly hot!

These are not traditionally signs of being a good fighter. Redcloak is obviously higher level, and I would wager it's a significant difference. That means his spells are going to be hitting harder, and more often. It also means he's got a lot more HP to get through, and since Tsukiko seems to like the damage spells....

Chainsaw Hobbit

2010-04-06, 05:48 PM

Heck yeah, stick figures are hot.

I know, that I think a stick figure is hot sometimes freaks me out.

Procyonpi

2010-04-07, 08:13 PM

"Whoever Rich wanted to win" is the obvious answer. But based on game mechanics, Redcloak, hands down.

Lupy

2010-04-07, 08:45 PM

Redcloak is a high level, has an artifact for a cloak, and is a major character.

The Supreme Leader has this.

Emanick

2010-04-07, 08:54 PM

From the SRD description of the SEVENTH level cleric spell Resurrect. One we absolutely KNOW RC can cast:

The condition of the remains is not a factor. So long as some small portion of the creature’s body still exists, it can be resurrected, but the portion receiving the spell must have been part of the creature’s body at the time of death. (The remains of a creature hit by a disintegrate spell count as a small portion of its body.) The creature can have been dead no longer than 10 years per caster level.

What's left from a disintigrate is specifically and explicitely enough that all you've done is cost yourself 5,000 extra GP in diamonds when forced to bring her back.

No he wouldn't. Which is GOOD since we don't know if he has that spell. But we absolutely know he has Ressurection, and it's good enough.

He could merely destroy her body.

Shhalahr Windrider

2010-04-07, 11:18 PM

We don't know that Xykon would especially care if Redcloak killed Tsukiko. Tsukiko has put a great deal of effort into sucking up to Xykon, but I suspect that has very little impact on him. Xykon gets enjoyment only from the suffering of others. He could end her in a moment if he got bored enough.
He certainly doesn’t care about Tsukiko as a person. But he’s spent some time grooming her and placing her in a position to boss around Redcloak. He has plans for her; he is certainly not going to take interference with those plans lightly, especially if that interference comes from that rebelling goblin that has yet to be put back in his proper place. Xykon doesn’t take challenges to his authority lying down.

I have to wonder how much of their rivalry Xykon encourages. If one kills the other, well and good. If they kill each other, Xykon will simply give another goblin priest the Crimson Mantle, and another Redcloak will exist in another body.
Keep in mind that handing the Crimson Mantle to a new goblin requires starting from square one with breaking the new second-in-command in. It’ll cause more delays and trouble, particularly if it turns out the newbie has a much stronger spine than Redcloak. I get the feeling that Xykon would have gotten rid of Redcloak and given the Crimson Mantle over to Jirix already if he were willing to put up with that.

One of the things that makes Tsukiko so valuable is that she doesn’t need any breaking in; she’s already loyal to Xykon without him needing to hold either past misbehavior or a thousand hostages over her head.

Rebuke undead can't take control of a powerful created undead, not even from a much much weaker character. You only get to rebuke HD<=1/2 your cleric levels. But you can animate a 20 HD creature at level 5 with minimal effort.
Except you need a 10 HD base creature to get that 20 HD undead. Most of Tsukiko’s undead are formed from 1 HD humanoids, which result in 2 HD zombies, 2 HD ghouls, 4 HD wights, or 4 HD ghasts. There is no evidence yet that she has had the opportunity to create anything more powerful than those.

Underground

2010-04-08, 04:28 AM

Actually, it seems like Teleport has less-stringent requirements for taking people with you in OotS than in straight D&D. The no-name Azurite wizard who couldn't see any purpose in life could also teleport six people besides himself (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0340.html). I highly doubt a level-18 wizard would be so depressed and relegated to courier duty.
He probably had some PrC which gave him access to better Teleportation spell.

I dimly remember reading about some such sometimes.

Morthis

2010-04-08, 05:47 AM

He probably had some PrC which gave him access to better Teleportation spell.

I dimly remember reading about some such sometimes.

It seems far more likely that teleport is simply less strict in oots. V was also able to epic teleport the entire fleet with one spell. Considering the travel seed can move 1000 lb and +50 lb per 2 DC, that would be a DC well into the ten thousands.

hamishspence

2010-04-08, 06:45 AM

I'm not sure if it's known that Evil is one of his domains, but the other is Destruction. He wouldn't get Disintegrate otherwise. Plus, he used the Smite power in SOD.

From SoD, we see him use Hold Monster- a Law domain spell.

Though it could have been granted by the Mantle, it's simpler for it to be him having the Law domain.

We never see him cast an Evil Domain Only spell. We do see an anonymous white-cloaked goblin cleric cast one (Unholy Blight) in strip 11.

Morthis

2010-04-08, 07:04 AM

From SoD, we see him use Hold Monster- a Law domain spell.

Though it could have been granted by the Mantle, it's simpler for it to be him having the Law domain.

We never see him cast an Evil Domain Only spell. We do see an anonymous white-cloaked goblin cleric cast one (Unholy Blight) in strip 11.

Oddly enough, here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html) RC is surprised that clerics get hold monster.

factotum

2010-04-08, 07:41 AM

I was about to point that out--if Redcloak himself has the Law domain, why would he have been so surprised that the Azure City high priest has a spell which is part of that domain?

Shhalahr Windrider

2010-04-08, 08:25 AM

Oddly enough, here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html) RC is surprised that clerics get hold monster.
Nah, he said, “Wait, you get that spell?” (emphasis mine), not, “Wait, clerics get that spell?” He’s just used to being the only cleric he knows that can cast hold monster and was momentarily taken aback by another cleric using it.

I was about to point that out--if Redcloak himself has the Law domain, why would he have been so surprised that the Azure City high priest has a spell which is part of that domain?
Simple. He didn’t expect the priest to have access to that particular domain.

Mitth'raw'nuruo

2010-04-08, 09:34 AM

:-)....0:smallsmile::smallsmile::smallsmile:

Morthis

2010-04-08, 09:58 AM

Nah, he said, “Wait, you get that spell?” (emphasis mine), not, “Wait, clerics get that spell?” He’s just used to being the only cleric he knows that can cast hold monster and was momentarily taken aback by another cleric using it.

It's possible, however I read it as him being shocked clerics get it. Of course he does use it in SoD, which is why it's strange.

Simple. He didn’t expect the priest to have access to that particular domain.

This is where it gets confusing. Why would RC be surprised that a lawful good cleric who is part of an order of lawful good paladins has the law domain? That doesn't strike me as even the slightest bit surprising.

Shhalahr Windrider

2010-04-08, 11:24 AM

This is where it gets confusing. Why would RC be surprised that a lawful good cleric who is part of an order of lawful good paladins has the law domain? That doesn't strike me as even the slightest bit surprising.
Well, first of all, the Twelve Gods are an entire pantheon. One wouldn’t necessarily expect all twelve of them to be so united on the Law/Chaos axis that Law would be an available domain. Even if they do sponsor paladins. Note that Pelor, a classic sponsor of paladins is neutral good, and therefore does not grant the Law domain.

Second, just because the Law domain is available doesn’t mean the cleric took it. If most clerics Redcloak has encountered take, say Good and Protection instead, then running into one with Law would be enough to turn his head.

Third, it was a comment made in the heat of the moment. He’s not thinking about all the details. Not even the first bit above about unity on the Law/Chaos axis. All that’s required for surprise is that Redcloak has not encountered any clerics of the Twelve Gods with the Law domain.

Vinyadan

2010-04-08, 11:50 AM

About the wizard: to me, he seemed so depressed because of being nothing else than some nameless NPC, unworthy of any attention. Here Shojo says that he was his best wizard, so he could actually be level 18. I know that Shojo was joking and never had any problem in lying, but the fact that he needed the wizard to be resurrected makes me think that it was the only wizard in town which could do something like that.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0379.html

Forever Curious

2010-04-08, 12:08 PM

Tsukiko would win, shes wwaaaayyy more awesome and totaly hot!

Sig'ing this, if I may?

Dr.Epic

2010-04-08, 12:12 PM

Red Cloak already pwn'd her once. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0457.html)

Herald Alberich

2010-04-08, 01:10 PM

He probably had some PrC which gave him access to better Teleportation spell.

I dimly remember reading about some such sometimes.

The Wayfarer Guide? Skimming over it, it would explain his skills quite handily (both the number of people and the distance between Azure City and Cliffport), but Morthis's simpler explanation is also attractive. Besides, Tsukiko certainly doesn't have that class.

About the wizard: to me, he seemed so depressed because of being nothing else than some nameless NPC, unworthy of any attention. Here Shojo says that he was his best wizard, so he could actually be level 18. I know that Shojo was joking and never had any problem in lying, but the fact that he needed the wizard to be resurrected makes me think that it was the only wizard in town which could do something like that.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0379.html

True, but if he were two levels away from Epic, it seems unlikely he would be so ignored. On the other hand, that probably just makes the joke funnier.

I would think "Shojo's personal wizard" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0306.html) would be more powerful, anyway.

Morthis

2010-04-08, 03:09 PM

By itself, it's reasonably possible that the wizard might have been level 18+ and it's part of the joke, but when you look at all the other stuff as well, it just seems far more likely teleporting is simply easier in oots.

Tsukiko having an arcane level of 18 would be hard to believe. Even if she has practiced spellcaster so that she only needs to be 18, it seems highly unlikely. So far it seems implied that RC is higher level than Tsukiko (the way he first treats her for example), and we don't even know for sure if RC is 18.

Then there's epic teleport, as I've already mentioned. There's absolutely no way that someone could normally cast that, if teleporting wasn't easier in oots. This isn't even a DC that's slightly higher than normal, it's a DC that's like 100 times higher than what is reasonably attainable.