how to create sentient life & massive demiplane pre-epic

[taltamir]

When discussing the ultimate wizard sanctum, I came up with a demiplane which contains breathable air, water, and lush soil (specified on casting of the genesis spell) into which you imported vegetation and wild animals, and then create sentient life in who worships you as a god... naturally you teach them magic so they are wizards... and clerics of you once you attain godhood (@2000 worshipers you become a god)

The problems are:
1. each casting of genesis costs 5000XP, how can this be avoided?
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/genesis.htm
(although, if you absolutely have to you can afford to pay it).
To maximize efficiency, I think it should have radial gravity... that is, gravity is pointing outwards, light and heat comes from the exact center of the plane, and the outmost portion is soil and water. Essentially, you are making a dyson sphere.

2. How do you create a unique truebreeding sentient race?
So far I am thinking Polymorph any Object of a non sentient creature into a sentient version of itself... maybe humanoid or at least with opposable thumbs and vocal chords. It will have a permanent duration (since they are related +2, same kingdom +5, same size +2, same family +2 = +11) and essentially "uplift" an animal into human-like state. You should focus on really small creature to maximize the amount of follower "souls" you have and maximize use of terrain size (when you are a true god you can go crazy with the design). Being really small means less HP and carry capacity, but they are capable of casting spells easily (in fact, magic will be even more vital to their society)... a mere cantrip will insta gib any of them, lifting cantrips such as mage hand will enable "flight" and massive "construction" and so on and so forth.

This raises an interesting issue about DnD biology of course, can you make sentient ants? because it should be extremely easy to get the 2000 followers that way in a single casting of demiplane

A big issue is whether or not the descendants of two PaO creatures retain some aspects of their PaO status... that is, if you PaO two rabbits into dragons, and have then breed, do they birth dragons, or rabbits, or half dragon rabbits?

EDIT: Assuming that creatures do not inherit their parents PaO stats... how can you maximize your PaO castings per day? Because even if two Ant-men give birth non sentient ants, if you their god personally gives each baby ant the gift of sentience you can still reach 2000 followers and ascend to godhood as long as they:
1. Live long enough.
2. you can cast it enough times per day to accumulate 2000 followers in a reasonable amount of time.

[LichPrinceAlim]

I, to be honest, haven't a clue. Maybe build a golem as a demiplane?

[Eldariel]

The problems are:
1. each casting of genesis costs 5000XP, how can this be avoided?
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/genesis.htm
(although, if you absolutely have to you can afford to pay it).
To maximize efficiency, I think it should have radial gravity... that is, gravity is pointing outwards, light and heat comes from the exact center of the plane, and the outmost portion is soil and water. Essentially, you are making a dyson sphere.

By paying it, mostly. You can avoid it with Thoughtbottle or Dweomerkeeper, but there's a reason nobody in their right minds thinks about those. Besides, XP is cheap.


2. How do you create a unique truebreeding sentient race?
So far I am thinking Polymorph any Object of a non sentient creature into a sentient version of itself... maybe humanoid or at least with opposable thumbs and vocal chords. It will have a permanent duration (since they are related +2, same kingdom +5, same size +2, same family +2 = +11) and essentially "uplift" an animal into human-like state. You should focus on really small creature to maximize the amount of follower "souls" you have and maximize use of terrain size (when you are a true god you can go crazy with the design). Being really small means less HP and carry capacity, but they are capable of casting spells easily (in fact, magic will be even more vital to their society)... a mere cantrip will insta gib any of them, lifting cantrips such as mage hand will enable "flight" and massive "construction" and so on and so forth.

A big issue is whether or not the descendants of two PaO creatures retain some aspects of their PaO status... that is, if you PaO two rabbits into dragons, and have then breed, do they birth dragons, or rabbits, or half dragon rabbits?

EDIT: Assuming that creatures do not inherit their parents PaO stats... how can you maximize your PaO castings per day? Because even if two Ant-men give birth non sentient ants, if you their god personally gives each baby ant the gift of sentience you can still reach 2000 followers and ascend to godhood as long as they:
1. Live long enough.
2. you can cast it enough times per day to accumulate 2000 followers in a reasonable amount of time.

Forced breeding with some magical tinkering is probably the easiest longterm solution. Research some spells, etc. By RAW, PAO helps but doesn't really create new creatures normally. Still, since like 50% of the stranger creatures are rationalized as "Wizard did it" and you are the damn Wizard, it shouldn't be much of a stretch to do just that.


This raises an interesting issue about DnD biology of course, can you make sentient ants? because it should be extremely easy to get the 2000 followers that way in a single casting of demiplane

Awakening isn't much of a trick for anyone on those levels. Wish, etc.

[Lysander]

You can develop an epic spell to create whatever creatures you wish. Want loyal winged humans with sorcerer powers? There's an epp for that.

Or save time and effort by creating life the old fashioned way: find a bunch of impoverished families with pregnant wives and offer them a life of comfort in a new universe. They give birth, raise children who revere you as a ruler, and presto your private plane has a growing population. And all it takes is a single gate spell and a little bit of construction and agriculture.

[Eldariel]

You can develop an epic spell to create whatever creatures you wish. Want loyal winged humans with sorcerer powers? There's an epp for that.

Or save time and effort by creating life the old fashioned way: find a bunch of impoverished families with pregnant wives and offer them a life of comfort in a new universe. They give birth, raise children who revere you as a ruler, and presto your private plane has a growing population. And all it takes is a single gate spell and a little bit of construction and agriculture.

That's a tad harder pre-epic though.

[taltamir]

alright, just finished a detailed writeup in word, lemme copy paste it:

My Ascension:
1. Create a Demiplane modeled after a dyson sphere, with soil and water on the sides, air in the middle, radial gravity (pushing out of the center of the plane in all directions equally) and light and heat coming from the center.
2. Import plants and non sentient animals into your dyson sphere demiplane
3. Write scripture
4. Use PaO to transform really small creatures into sentient versions of themselves with vocal cords and fine manipulators. (you might just go ahead and make them humanoid)… Example, Ant-men… why small?
A. Their society will be based on magic, which makes them useful followers later on.
B. They consume very little resources allowing you to reach the 2000 pop goal without casting genesis more than once (since it costs 5k XP per cast)… naturally you can expand the universe once you are a god, or with your followers contributing XP.

Polymorph Any Object:
PAO is a level 8 spell which allows you to transmute a non sentient object or creature into a sentient one. A level 20 wizard has 4 SL8 and 4 SL9 slots, plus bonus slots from int and specialization. If he focus specialized in another school (and didn’t ban transmutation… because anyone who did is obviously too stupid to warrant ascension), then you have 3 of each, if you specialized in transmutation 5 of each, and if you focused specialized in transmutation then 6 of each.

Assuming you started with 16 int, +5 from levelup, +6 from headband… no inherent bonus because you wish to become a god ASAP and don’t have the XP to burn on wishes/tomes. So you have an int of 27, that’s one bonus SL8 slot… If you assume starting int 20, +5 levels, +5 tome, +6 headband that’s 36, which gives +2 SL8 and +2 SL9.

So an average generalist wizard of average intelligence bonuses should have 9 castings a day of PaO, 7 if focused specialized in another school, 0 if banned transmutation, and an ideal wizard will have 16 castings a day. Of course, pearls of power and the like could help, but they are VERY costly. So could special class features and feats (ex: archmage ability to sacrifice SL5 + SLX to get 2xday SLA of a spell of SLX.) but let us not take these into account.

A quick Google search yielded the following result: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Life_expectancy_of_an_ant
1-2 months for the pesky black ant, 6 months for pet ants in an ant farm (if you feed them), 6-7 years for carpenter ants.

Ok then, you could EASILY sustain 2000 ants in your 180 foot radius dyson sphere. So you need only waste one single 5000xp casting of genesis to get started. Afterwards its simply a matter of “ascending” ants daily. Make sure to come up with a pretty good religious explanation for how the mythology of you (the creator and granter of sentience) works, and grant sentience to max amounts of ants a day.

At a maximized 16 castings a day rate you will take 125 days to reach 2000 ants. Each lives for 6-7 years so not a single one will die before you ascend… and once ascended you can give them true sentience, expand your dyson sphere, and so on… since obviously your first divine power is the “wish at will at no XP cost”.

An average wizard getting mere 9 castings a day will take 223 days to get 2000. Someone who focused specialized in another school will take 286 days… still well within reason.

But what if you are not willing to risk adventuring from level 17 to 20? Well… a level 17 wizard gets access to genesis. At this point you are limited by your daily PaO castings. An average wizard then with 16 starting int, +4 from levels, +6 from headband gets +1 SL8, and a base of 2 SL8 and 1 SL9. So that is 4 a day for a generalist. He will take 500 days to ascend. Not a single ant should perish in that time period.

[taltamir]

By paying it, mostly. You can avoid it with Thoughtbottle or Dweomerkeeper, but there's a reason nobody in their right minds thinks about those. Besides, XP is cheap.
XP is priceless... How would you get it cheaply?


Forced breeding with some magical tinkering is probably the easiest longterm solution. Research some spells, etc. By RAW, PAO helps but doesn't really create new creatures normally. Still, since like 50% of the stranger creatures are rationalized as "Wizard did it" and you are the damn Wizard, it shouldn't be much of a stretch to do just that.
The thing is, there has to be some by the RAW method that isn't up to DM interpretation... RAW says you can "research spells" but is very dickish about what spells are allowed and the methodology... basically researching custom spells is a losing prospect... however my method includes:
1. No XP mitigations whatsoever, I pay XP in full.
2. No custom spells.
3. No iffy interpretations.


Awakening isn't much of a trick for anyone on those levels. Wish, etc.
Awakening would be awesome, but awakening costs XP.


You can develop an epic spell to create whatever creatures you wish. Want loyal winged humans with sorcerer powers? There's an epp for that.

Or save time and effort by creating life the old fashioned way: find a bunch of impoverished families with pregnant wives and offer them a life of comfort in a new universe. They give birth, raise children who revere you as a ruler, and presto your private plane has a growing population. And all it takes is a single gate spell and a little bit of construction and agriculture.

the goal is explicitly to do so pre-epic. I know you can do it post epic easily.

[Yuki Akuma]

XP is priceless... How would you get it cheaply?

The more you spend, the more you earn in return. XP is a river.

[taltamir]

The more you spend, the more you earn in return. XP is a river.

This requires you to be adventuring... adventuring is risky, you can die... heck your very soul can be unmade and you are impossible to resurrect.
I always advocated that XP is indeed a river, but it takes time and risk to acquire, and you have a propensity for neither while trying to ascend.

[thubby]

iirc, you can use people's souls to pay xp costs. if you have a way to contain them you get like 100 per level of the person.

so trap 50 commoners and you're set. just don't be surprised when a bunch of adventurers show up.

[Flickerdart]

You...can't PAO something into "itself but better". Creating a new species is Epic spell territory, and magically augmented creatures wouldn't breed true. Furthermore, ants are vermin and don't have an INT score. So you could polymorph them into a sentient creature, but that would defeat the point.

[taltamir]

You...can't PAO something into "itself but better". Creating a new species is Epic spell territory, and magically augmented creatures wouldn't breed true. Furthermore, ants are vermin and don't have an INT score. So you could polymorph them into a sentient creature, but that would defeat the point.

this is a potentially valid argument... PaO does allow you to polymorph anything into anything. But if you follow this argument then just PaO your original creature into an existing sentient species... so just choose the smallest sentient creature in DnD and PaO a non sentient animal into it.

[Lysander]

the goal is explicitly to do so pre-epic. I know you can do it post epic easily.

In that case I think the best bet is just to find people willing to live in your dimension. You can recruit them from anywhere in the multiverse.

Or hire a few trainers and buy eggs of sentient magical creatures like Giant Eagles and Pegasi. When those hatch breed them together and you can have a self-perpetuating supply of loyal intelligent monsters.

[taltamir]

In that case I think the best bet is just to find people willing to live in your dimension. You can recruit them from anywhere in the multiverse.

Or hire a few trainers and buy eggs of sentient magical creatures like Giant Eagles and Pegasi. When those hatch breed them together and you can have a self-perpetuating supply of loyal intelligent monsters.

that is a rather simple solution... but natural reproduction and education can take a while. If you bring humans then they will have recollections of the world before and the knowledge might spread among your followers and prevent them from truly believing in your divinity. If you bring eggs only then you have to go through the process of rearing them... both cases your "converts per day" count is limited...

You can, for example, have your scriptures indicate that during "genesis" "God" (that is, you) shall create 7 (mystic number... ooh; or if it is 16, then 16 is a mystic number for your religion) "women" (females that is, of whatever race you use) a day for a year. After which you create 7 "men" a day for a year. After 223 days of creating womenfolk you will transform from a mortal wizard to a god and as a god you can ensure they are true breeding.

The key advantage to this approach is that you do not rely on them being true breeding to ascend. Instead, you personally create each of the 2000 worshipers. This gets around the uncertainty of whether or not PaO makes them true breeding or not (it doesn't matter, they could all be sterile)


iirc, you can use people's souls to pay xp costs. if you have a way to contain them you get like 100 per level of the person.

so trap 50 commoners and you're set. just don't be surprised when a bunch of adventurers show up.

what a callous but effective solution... heck, kidnap 500... it will take a mere 10 days to convert them into 10 castings of genesis; then you can just escape into that demiplane... heck, adventurers showing up means more XP, since each one has levels they are worth more than commoners; and if you want to make sure nobody cares, kidnap goblins or orcs for use in that spell... this will certainly make things easier. And you could PaO any mammel into a human... if you have enough space for 2000 humans to live.
this does mean more risky time during the prime material... but you could also convert 255 commoners into a +5 tome of int... which will accelerate the process.

very mean though.

[Lysander]

Just find a plane with the fast time trait and leave your colony of people/sentient magical beasts there to grow. Check in every day or so, which to them is every twenty years. When you arrive perform wondrous magical feats for them to gain a reputation of the apparent centuries.

[taltamir]

Just find a plane with the fast time trait and leave your colony of people/sentient magical beasts there to grow. Check in every day or so, which to them is every twenty years. When you arrive perform wondrous magical feats for them to gain a reputation of the apparent centuries.

is there such a plane by the RAW? would it be completely empty of other sentients while maintaining all the necessities of life? AFAIK I don't know of any such plane existing, which is why I suggested creating my own. Naturally if it already exists then it saves you some work... and if "fast time" demiplane creation is allowed that makes the whole thing more efficient, but there is some argument on that front, and my goal was to eliminate any possible argument or obstacle on interpretation.

[Lysander]

By RAW there are planes with varying time, relative to each other. Personally I disagree (though many people do think this) that Genesis can create a fast time plane since that's technically not the environment "within the plane" but how time passes relative to other planes. But simple matter. move everyone to a fast time plane, let a few centuries go by, then relocate them to your private demiplane via gate.

[deuxhero]

For XPless demiplane, you can always sub in 5 times as much gold per the transference rules.

Sentient life is very easy. Make a statue, cast stone to flesh then animate dead. They are aware of their surroundings, therefore sentient (Sapient is a little harder, isn't there a spell that makes undead intelligent?)

[Taelas]

Transference (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060526a) is for Item Creation only -- they cannot replace the XP material component for Genesis, at least as far as I am aware.

[Yuki Akuma]

For XPless demiplane, you can always sub in 5 times as much gold per the transference rules.

Sentient life is very easy. Make a statue, cast stone to flesh then animate dead. They are aware of their surroundings, therefore sentient (Sapient is a little harder, isn't there a spell that makes undead intelligent?)

Undead are not life. They are pretty much the opposite of life.

[herbe]

For XPless demiplane, you can always sub in 5 times as much gold per the transference rules.

Sentient life is very easy. Make a statue, cast stone to flesh then animate dead. They are aware of their surroundings, therefore sentient (Sapient is a little harder, isn't there a spell that makes undead intelligent?)

There is a spell which mekes undeads intelligent for 200xp per casting(area spell so its effective aginst more undead) and they get a little skill and feat based on its HD. If you are a necromancer this is a compulsory spell.

Awaken Undead:
Savage species pg 63
Libris Mortis pg 62

[Flickerdart]

Which book states that once you have 2,000 people thinking you're a god, you become one? I'm pretty sure that Myrkul and Co. would never have gone through the trouble if it was that easy. Hell, you could just cast Mindrape 2,000 times and there you have it.

[taltamir]

Which book states that once you have 2,000 people thinking you're a god, you become one? I'm pretty sure that Myrkul and Co. would never have gone through the trouble if it was that easy. Hell, you could just cast Mindrape 2,000 times and there you have it.

this is win! no need for demiplane, no need to create life, just mindrape 2000 people to believe in you!
A very creative solution... but mindrape is a level above PaO.
ideally we need to find a spell that is lower level than PaO.

As for which book its from, I don't remember, I just remember that this value is somewhere.

[deuxhero]

It also answers the other question, simply make them thing Adahn is real while you make them think your a god, you just made life.


Undead are not life. They are pretty much the opposite of life.

Equal and opposite.

Permancied awaken object is also sentient life.

[Jack_Simth]

Which book states that once you have 2,000 people thinking you're a god, you become one? I'm pretty sure that Myrkul and Co. would never have gone through the trouble if it was that easy. Hell, you could just cast Mindrape 2,000 times and there you have it.
To my knowledge, there isn't.

There's a spot or two where it mentions that rank 1 deities have that many worshipers (Deities and Demigods, I believe)... but not that you necessarily become a deity when you get that many worshipers.

[Myou]

this is win! no need for demiplane, no need to create life, just mindrape 2000 people to believe in you!
A very creative solution... but mindrape is a level above PaO.
ideally we need to find a spell that is lower level than PaO.

As for which book its from, I don't remember, I just remember that this value is somewhere.

This is wrong, you may have imagined it or got it from a 3rd party book, it's certainly not in the rules - this was discussed before. By RAW you cannot ever become a deity. The rules just say talk to your DM and see what he decides.

[Eldariel]

This is wrong, you may have imagined it or got it from a 3rd party book, it's certainly not in the rules - this was discussed before. By RAW you cannot ever become a deiy. The rules just say talk to your DM and see what he decides.

Disclaimer: Without using Ice Assassin or similars anyways.

[Myou]

Disclaimer: Without using Ice Assassin or similars anyways.

Ah, yes, true, without unintended rules abuse that no DM would allow. :smallbiggrin:

[deuxhero]

This is wrong, you may have imagined it or got it from a 3rd party book, it's certainly not in the rules - this was discussed before. By RAW you cannot ever become a deity. The rules just say talk to your DM and see what he decides.

No, by RAW you can use infinite charisma to convince a god to make you a divine proxy.

[FinalJustice]

- Create the plane.
- Get a heckuva lot of bunnies and a Thought Bottle.
- Awaken said bunnies.
- Mindrape the bunnies into worshipping you and passing said worship along.
- Train bunnies to be clerics of a philosophy (that is, worshiping you). Training them to use DMM is optional, but recommended.
- Throw some Wizard training in the mix as well.
- Order spellcasting bunnies to procreate, awaken their kin and teach them the Word.
- Put yourself in Temporal Stasis, saying that When Time Cometh, Thy God Shall Awake. Have a Contingent Freedom on having 2000 bunny worshippers.
- Ascend from Temporal Stasis to The Lordship of Spellcasting Bunnies.

(You'll have to find/customize a Domain that has Awaken, there's a feat for it)

[Myou]

No, by RAW you can use infinite charisma to convince a god to make you a divine proxy.

Covered in my previous post, also Diplomacy does not work that way.

[Jack_Simth]

No, by RAW you can use infinite charisma to convince a god to make you a divine proxy.Nope. Even with the Epic Diplomacy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#diplomacy) add-on of Fanatic, it is a "mind-affecting enchantment effect for purposes of immunity, save bonuses, or being detected by the Sense Motive skill" - and Deities are Immune (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm#immunities). You need the Ice Assassin spell from Frostburn, and a sufficiently high caster level to copy a deity, putting it under your absolute control THAT way.

[deuxhero]

I never said diplomacy, just charisma based stuff (bluff can pull of worse stuff when you have unlimited skill and I mean "the sky is pink" not the suggestion ability), same thing the omniscificer works on to convince a deity to make his omniscience instantaneous.

[Jack_Simth]

I never said diplomacy, just charisma based stuff (bluff can pull of worse stuff when you have unlimited skill), same thing the omniscificer works on to convince a deity to make his omniscience instantaneous.
So you plan to trick a deity into giving you Divine Rank 1... which it can revoke at any time as a free action if anyone manages to show it evidence that you tricked it?

[deuxhero]

I said it gets you divine ranks raw, not let you keep the ranks (altering reality so your buffs don't end is instant though)

[Myou]

I never said diplomacy, just charisma based stuff (bluff can pull of worse stuff when you have unlimited skill and I mean "the sky is pink" not the suggestion ability), same thing the omniscificer works on to convince a deity to make his omniscience instantaneous.

Bluff also does not work that way. No skill does.