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Perducci
2010-03-23, 03:56 PM
Ok so far, I've never been a monk user, because they are of course a bit underpowered...but I've taken it upon myself to play one. So, assuming these stats.

Human
Str-10 Dex-16 Con-14 Wis-20 Int-12 Cha-8
Monk gets Full BAB.

I'm trying to build a stunning fist heavy build. Here's what I've got.

Level1 Monk-Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty, Stunning Fist, Ability Focus(Stunning Fist), Improved Grapple(with a Flaw)
Level2 Monk-Combat Reflexes, Intuitive Strike
Level3 Monk-Pain Touch

I need help up to level 10 since our games rarely go higher. I'm not sure what to do next. I'll probably go into Shintao or Tattooed monk Prc or some combo of the two as soon as possible.

Any ideas guys? Mostly on feat selection since I'll have quite a few to play around with because of VoP(which i mostly chose for RP purposes)

Oh and please, no comments on how lame this will be compared to a caster. The character's main goal is to assist a rogue and a something else in a 3 person party. We'll be starting at level 2.

Douglas
2010-03-23, 04:06 PM
Since you're going the VoP route, Touch of Golden Ice is almost mandatory.

Once you qualify for it, take Improved Natural Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#improvedNaturalAttack) for your Unarmed Strike.

I would suggest Swordsage, but it sounds like you're taking Monk as a deliberate handicap so that would be missing the point quite thoroughly. Still, Superior Unarmed Strike from ToB will get you a little more unarmed damage.

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-23, 04:13 PM
I would definitely take rapid stunning (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Rapid_Stunning) as soon as you can to incorporate stunning fist into your full attacks.

Perducci
2010-03-23, 04:16 PM
Completely missed the Touch of Golden Ice. Superior Unarmed Strike and Improved Natural Weapon...well I looked at those, but I don't really care about putting out damage as much as I do creating situations which make the other party members kick butt.

Trust me, I thought about unarmed swordsage(its my favorite class...well minus the unarmed part). I wanted something different and a little gimped because-A)Most of the characters I make are too optimized in comparison to the group. and B) There will be a 1st timer playing with us that I want to help snag those moments of glory.

Darklord Xavez
2010-03-23, 04:35 PM
One thing that I recommend is making you Strength stat a bit better. The 3.5 and 3.0 PHBs say that it is one of the most important abilities for a monk. Also, if he has 20 Wisdom, isn't he already at least 8th level? (ability score increase every 4 levels) Because this is 3.5, not Pathfinder, and you can't have any starting ability score over 18 without racial adjustments to your scores. Just a question.
-Xavez
Edit: Maybe for the ability scores you could put your 14 into Strength, your 12 into Constitution, and you 10 into Intelligence.

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-23, 04:40 PM
One thing that I recommend is making you Strength stat a bit better. The 3.5 and 3.0 PHBs say that it is one of the most important abilities for a monk. Also, if he has 20 Wisdom, isn't he already at least 8th level? (ability score increase every 4 levels) Because this is 3.5, not Pathfinder, and you can't have any starting ability score over 18 without racial adjustments to your scores. Just a question.
-Xavez
Edit: Maybe for the ability scores you could put your 14 into Strength, your 12 into Constitution, and you 10 into Intelligence.

Pathfinder doesn't let you go over 18 either. But I agree, only put 16 into WIS before racials, and you'll be all around a lot better.

Sir Giacomo
2010-03-23, 05:25 PM
I would definitely take rapid stunning (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Rapid_Stunning) as soon as you can to incorporate stunning fist into your full attacks.

Rapid stunning is definitely a good idea, as is snap kick (from ToB) to get two stunning attacks with a standard action (to be still able to charge or move before/after in the same round).

Swordsage is not a good idea in this case since it does not provide as many stunning fist attempts/per day (and not stunning fist as a bonus feat, either).

Not having the BoED nearby, I think the sacred vow line also offers vow of non-violence which can increase your stunning fist DC by another +4. A bit problematic though RP wise with a rogue (if said rogue just does non-lethal damage with, say, a sap it might work out though).

Finally, you may wish to consider the alternate class feature decisive strike (PHB II) for which you give up flurry (you still need a full round action for it though). It nets you double damage plus another +2 to Stunning Fist DC. Good for snap kick and AoOs (you already have combat reflexes).

- Giacomo

PS: I'd take improved initiative instead of the improved grapple feat at level 1 - grappling with STR 10 and no good item access to enlarge (and maybe the "something else" guy not having the enlarge spell to cast) is not really worth it. Maybe, also (if possible) knowledge devotion that can provide you with combat bonuses based on your knowledge-arcane and knowledge-religion skills (plus one knowledge of your choice).
Also, I think blind-fight is better than pain touch.
Touch of Golden Ice seconded...

jindra34
2010-03-23, 05:31 PM
Edit: Maybe for the ability scores you could put your 14 into Strength, your 12 into Constitution, and you 10 into Intelligence.

(S)He's using Intuitive Strike which allows Wisdom instead of Strength for Unarmed Strikes. So why should strength have such a high weight?

Perducci
2010-03-23, 05:42 PM
For people wondering about the 20 in Wis. We like to play it high-power. Homebrew. No point arguing about it.

Improved Grapple is a prerequisite to the Tattooed Monk.

Pain Touch basically lengthens stunning from one to two rounds. I mean sure not "stunned" but you know what I mean.

tyckspoon
2010-03-23, 05:48 PM
(S)He's using Intuitive Strike which allows Wisdom instead of Strength for Unarmed Strikes. So why should strength have such a high weight?

Damage output, mostly. It's not especially relevant if the build is more concerned about hitting and sticking a Stunning Fist (or Stunning Fist-based effect like Pain Touch or Falling Star Strike.)

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-23, 06:27 PM
Your Stunning Fist DCs are going to be lower than you want them to be. VoP lowers the maximum possible Wisdom score you can have.


Human Monk 6/Swordsage 4/Shadowsun Ninja 10
Feats:

1: Stunning Fist
Human: Sapphire Fist
Flaw: Intuitive Attack
Flaw: Ability Focus (Stunning Fist)
Swordsage 1: Weapon Focus (Setting Sun style)
3rd: Falling Sun Attack
6th: Rapid Stunning
9th: Extra Stunning
12th: Freezing the Lifeblood
15th: Extra Stunning
18th: Extra Stunning


Items:

Essentia Helm*2 (Magic Item Compendium)
Ki Straps (Magic Item Compendium)
Amulet of Wis+6
Tome of Wis+5

Stunning Fist Save DC: 10+Wis (13)+1/2Character Level (10)+1 (Falling Sun Attack)+Ability Focus (2)+Sapphire Fist (1-4)+Ki Straps (2)=36+X, X is Essentia in Sapphire Fist.


Here's the trick: When you enter combat, take a Swift action to activate an Essentia Helm and fill your Sapphire Fist to 5 for a short time (3-5 rounds should do) by spending a single charge. This ups the DC for your Stunning Fist to 40, meaning most CR 20s are going to have a hard time against it unless they buff their Fort saves pretty high (or are immune anyway). In case they are immune, use Strikes and heal your allies with Shadowsun Ninja.

If they still are giving your trouble, use Shadowsun Ninja's class features to effectively blind them for half of the encounter. Only a True Dragon will actually be able to stand up to this, and they are vulnerable to Stunning Fist anyway so they shouldn't require it.

Perducci
2010-03-23, 06:45 PM
Sapphire fist? Where do I find that?

Starbuck_II
2010-03-23, 06:47 PM
Sapphire fist? Where do I find that?

Magic of Incarnum. They use soul power (similar to Ki but called essentia). Taking the feat gives you 1 essentia (enough to power the feat).

Perducci
2010-03-23, 06:52 PM
That seems like a really high build level. Our games rarely go above 10. That's quite a bit of magic items I likely won't ever see.

Starbuck_II
2010-03-23, 06:56 PM
Ki Straps are cheap.

But yeah, you will have to stick to +2 Wis necklace at first.

Flickerdart
2010-03-23, 06:56 PM
That build should scale very well, by the looks of it, since as soon as your Monk levels have been wrung out for anything of worth, Swordsage and SSN give it a real progression.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-23, 06:56 PM
That seems like a really high build level. Our games rarely go above 10. That's quite a bit of magic items I likely won't ever see.

Eh, even without the magic items, the Helm is really the only thing you need (and those are cheap for a 10th level game). Really, the only things out of your price range would be the +6 Amulet and the Tome, the Ki Straps and Helm are both fairly cheap.


Yeah, you'll still be able to pull this off.

Runestar
2010-03-23, 09:10 PM
The decisive strike variant adds +2dc to your stuuning fist attack, though it requires a full round to use.

Human Paragon 3
2010-03-23, 09:18 PM
There's a set of equipment in the MiC that boosts stunning fist DCs as well. You are wise to make it as wis-centric as possible.

Tattoed Monk is a vastly underrated PrC, but you must take the chamelion tattoo to get better movement modes. This takes care of one of the major VoP drawbacks.

theMycon
2010-03-23, 11:55 PM
Damage output, mostly. It's not especially relevant if the build is more concerned about hitting and sticking a Stunning Fist (or Stunning Fist-based effect like Pain Touch or Falling Star Strike.)
Past level 6 (when one can get Improve Natural Attack), Str barely factors into a monk's damage at all. It's about stacking the size increases, once the dice are worthwhile. I'm not sure why Pathfinder came up, but they entirely remove a monk's use for Str as a stat, since they make trip/grapple/etc attempts able to be based on Dex instead of Wis for a feat.

To the OP-Keep doing what you're doing. Pump wis, see if you can get Ability Focus (Monster Manual), Ki Straps (Magic Item Compendium), and either the +DC variant (in Unearthed Arcana) or Rapid Stunning (Complete Warrior). Vow of Poverty might actually help a monk, if your games end before flight is mandatory.


Once you're past level 12 or 13, half the stuff you fight is immune to stunning anyway. But you shouldn't have to deal with that before 10.

Be ready for having next to no offensive output 'til level 4-6; so a focus on stunning might be rather helpful.

Perducci
2010-03-24, 02:24 AM
So, I've decided to go VoP Monk with this build despite the suggestions not to do that. I get frustrated keeping up with gold all the time anyway. Just think of all the orphans and widows my character could support. Heh, it'll be the first time I've played a noble character in a while.

Without spending a single copper(at Lvl8), I've managed to boost his Wisdom score up to 30(not all the time). Armor Class of 31. Stunning DC of 28.

Thanks to all who threw out advice on the feats.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-03-24, 02:31 AM
I'm surprised nobody's mentioned Pharaoh's Fist from Sandstorm. Works the same as Stunning Fist, but it stuns the creature struck and everything adjacent to it in one attack.