Stacking

[randomhero00]

From the SRD:

Stacking

In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack (combine for a cumulative effect) if they come from different sources and have different types (or no type at all), but do not stack if they have the same type or come from the same source (such as the same spell cast twice in succession). If the modifiers to a particular roll do not stack, only the best bonus and worst penalty applies. Dodge bonuses and circumstance bonuses however, do stack with one another unless otherwise specified.

Was just thinking. Doesn't that mean that spells like shivering touch (dex damage) wouldn't stack? Or that wights or whatever, the ones that drain ability scores with attacks, wouldn't stack either? And level drains wouldn't stack?

I see a lot of optimization threads stacking such affects from one source to instagib a creature. Shivering touch still could because of its large range 3d6 or whatever, but I usually see people talking about stacking it. Or adding Feldrain to a spell and stacking it till dead (or whatever that TO use is.)

[Siosilvar]

That stacking rule specifies modifiers. Drain and damage is not a modifier.

[Starbuck_II]

Damage always stack. Always. Even than.

[ScionoftheVoid]

From the SRD:


Was just thinking. Doesn't that mean that spells like shivering touch (dex damage) wouldn't stack? Or that wights or whatever, the ones that drain ability scores with attacks, wouldn't stack either? And level drains wouldn't stack?

I see a lot of optimization threads stacking such affects from one source to instagib a creature. Shivering touch still could because of its large range 3d6 or whatever, but I usually see people talking about stacking it. Or adding Feldrain to a spell and stacking it till dead (or whatever that TO use is.)

If that happened then more than one instance of HP damage from the same source also would not "stack", so I'm going to say no. That is for static penalties (like a -6 Wis penalty would not stack from the same effect to give a -12 by using it twice) and bonuses (sacred, profane, alchemical, enhancement, morale, luck, untyped, dodge, deflection, natural armour, size and insight are the bonus types I can remember right now).

[randomhero00]

That stacking rule specifies modifiers. Drain and damage is not a modifier.

Touche. But there's more.



Damage always stack. Always. Even than.

Except for damage reduction...

If a creature has damage reduction from more than one source, the two forms of damage reduction do not stack. Instead, the creature gets the benefit of the best damage reduction in a given situation.

Just saying. If "damage" is the keyword then ability damage may be under a different rule than normal damage, just like damage reduction is.

Also from the SRD.

Stacking Effects

Spells that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves. More generally, two bonuses of the same type don’t stack even if they come from different spells (or from effects other than spells; see Bonus Types, above).
Specifically under combining spells.

I've also looked up wraiths and enervation and such. And while it does say negative levels stack it doesn't say they stack from the same source anywhere that I can see.

I'm not saying I'm right, just that I can't find any specific rules that says they stack within the same source.

[Innis Cabal]

Damage reduction is a modifyer. Just because it has the word "Damage" in it, dosn't mean its the same thing as ther talking abiut. Thats actually a rather dodgey argument all on its own.

[Caphi]

If damage didn't stack, how would anything get killed?

[lesser_minion]

Shivering touch does read like it was supposed to impose a short-term penalty (which wouldn't stack).

However, damage always stacks, and always persists until something else gets rid of it (if a spell is an exception, then it will note that the damage magically fixes itself).

[randomhero00]

If that happened then more than one instance of HP damage from the same source also would not "stack"
Well no, that's not true. There are exceptions like dodge bonuses stacking. Like I said, I'm not saying if its right or not, just that I can't find a supporting rule that negative stat or levels should stack from the same source.



Damage reduction is a modifyer. Just because it has the word "Damage" in it, dosn't mean its the same thing as ther talking abiut. Thats actually a rather dodgey argument all on its own.

Eh, that was my point. Just because ability damage has damage in it, doesn't mean the same rule applies. Ability damage is different than HP damage in other words.

[randomhero00]

Shivering touch does read like it was supposed to impose a short-term penalty (which wouldn't stack).

However, damage always stacks, and always persists until something else gets rid of it (if a spell is an exception, then it will note that the damage magically fixes itself).

Assuming that's true, then ability drain doesn't stack? So feldrain and negative levels wouldn't either (from the same source).

edit: also where is that rule from? It of course makes sense but I don't recall reading it.

[tyckspoon]

Assuming that's true, then ability drain doesn't stack? So feldrain and negative levels wouldn't either (from the same source).


Negative levels stack. Creatures that inflict negative levels do not cause penalties directly- they just apply more negative levels, which is not related to any stacking rules (you're allowed to apply as many redundant effects as you want, and negative levels aren't redundant.) Ergo, energy drain attacks stack.

Ability drain "stacks". When you are ability drained, there is no continuing effect to consider stacking or not stacking with; your ability score is simply lowered. You have 16 Strength, you are drained for 2, you now have 14 Strength. You don't have 16 Strength-that-is-temporarily-hurt-by-2, which is what Ability Damage does, you just have 14 Strength. That is considered your unaltered ability score at that point, and it can be further Drained, Damaged, or buffed without regard to anything that happened before.

[randomhero00]

Negative levels stack. Creatures that inflict negative levels do not cause penalties directly- they just apply more negative levels, which is not related to any stacking rules (you're allowed to apply as many redundant effects as you want, and negative levels aren't redundant.) Ergo, energy drain attacks stack.

Ability drain "stacks". When you are ability drained, there is no continuing effect to consider stacking or not stacking with; your ability score is simply lowered. You have 16 Strength, you are drained for 2, you now have 14 Strength. You don't have 16 Strength-that-is-temporarily-hurt-by-2, which is what Ability Damage does, you just have 14 Strength. That is considered your unaltered ability score at that point, and it can be further Drained, Damaged, or buffed without regard to anything that happened before.

Look I know the general rules. The point of this thread is to prove it by RAW. Also, by common sense I would consider all of those things penalties, which stack. When you're drained or damaged your ability score clearly isn't "permanent" or restoration wouldn't work...Since restoration works, they are temporary in the sense it's not changing your ability to an "unaltered" state.

Those abilities are only permanent in the sense of a permancied spell. Which is to say they aren't really permanent. Its just a way of categorizing that a spell has a duration untimed until something ceases it.

[Starbuck_II]

Penalties have specific naming.
Sure, damage works similar, but penalties are easier to cure always (Lesser Restoration, etc).
Damage takes more to cure.

[Sinfire Titan]

The point of this thread is to prove it by RAW.

Then dunking your head in a bucket of water can set your HP to 0 and kill you in three rounds. And you can take actions while dead.



Seriously, stop trying to prove Shivering Touch sucks as written and house rule it into balanced territory.

[lesser_minion]

Assuming that's true, then ability drain doesn't stack? So feldrain and negative levels wouldn't either (from the same source).

Instantaneous effects always work cumulatively (Rules Compendium, p.137).

Damage, including "special types of damage" (Energy drain, Ability Damage, Nonlethal Damage, and Ability Drain are all called out explicitly as being this) only ever stems from an instantaneous effect (spells that deal 'continuous damage' actually repeat the effect over and over again).

Enervation stacks with itself - it's an instantaneous effect. Fell Drain is basically an effect that adds more damage, so it also stacks with itself (and you can apply it to enervation).

[Starbuck_II]

Instantaneous effects always work cumulatively (Rules Compendium, p.137).

Damage, including "special types of damage" (Energy drain, Ability Damage, Nonlethal Damage, and Ability Drain are all called out explicitly as being this) only ever stems from an instantaneous effect (spells that deal 'continuous damage' actually repeat the effect over and over again).

Enervation stacks with itself - it's an instantaneous effect. Fell Drain is basically an effect that adds more damage, so it also stacks with itself (and you can apply it to enervation).

Psst, ability damage comes fromn 2 non-instanteous spells: Power Word Maladriot and Shivering touch. Both have a duration.

[lesser_minion]

Psst, ability damage comes fromn 2 non-instanteous spells: Power Word Maladriot and Shivering touch. Both have a duration.

True, but as was already noted, Shivering Touch is just plain bizarre anyway.

I'm not familiar with the other one.

[Starbuck_II]

PWM is in Races of the dragon.
It causes ability damage based on target's HD. It states the Dex damage goes away at end of duration (although this might be because damage rarely does).

[Sinfire Titan]

True, but as was already noted, Shivering Touch is just plain bizarre anyway.

I'm not familiar with the other one.

It has a specific clause. Really, it was meant to be used multiple times, so they made it damage instead of a penalty. This way it stacks, and the duration prevents it from outright killing something (though it can still **** with a Dragon).

[lesser_minion]

PWM is in Races of the dragon.
It causes ability damage based on target's HD. It states the Dex damage goes away at end of duration (although this might be because damage rarely does).

Got it.

It's a special case where ability damage goes away on its own, as far as I can tell.

Since the spell is technically still within its duration, you could read it strictly as not stacking under the "same effect at different strengths" rule (and this might be applicable to shivering touch, although that is just plain weird).

With shivering touch, nobody knows how to interpret the duration, although the consensus seems to be that the damage is instantaneous and the cosmetic 'shivering' persists for the duration.

[Starbuck_II]

Got it.

It's a special case where ability damage goes away on its own, as far as I can tell.

Since the spell is technically still within its duration, you could read it strictly as not stacking under the "same effect at different strengths" rule (and this might be applicable to shivering touch, although that is just plain weird).

With shivering touch, nobody knows how to interpret the duration, although the consensus seems to be that the damage is instantaneous and the cosmetic 'shivering' persists for the duration.

Are you saying the flavor text lasts fot 1 rd/lv? :smallconfused: :smallbiggrin:

[lesser_minion]

Are you saying the flavor text lasts fot 1 rd/lv? :smallconfused: :smallbiggrin:

Pretty much. I'm pretty sure a RAW-compliant DM could also rule that the damage disappears at the end of the spell, since it's at least implied despite being unstated.

However, damage outlasting its source is implicit in a lot of places, and shivering touch isn't noted as an exception.

[tyckspoon]

Are you saying the flavor text lasts fot 1 rd/lv? :smallconfused: :smallbiggrin:

Has anybody mentioned that Shivering Touch is a really weirdly written spell yet? Because it's a really weirdly written spell. We can pretty much agree that it does 3d6 Cold-type Dex damage. Everything else is screwy.

[lesser_minion]

The solution to Shivering Touch is to houserule it, really - there is no single RAW-compliant interpretation.

In fact, I don't think anyone would complain if you banned it outright, not on balance grounds, but because it clearly has not been written up to an appropriate standard.