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Mushroom Ninja
2010-03-23, 07:33 PM
So, we all know that the most broken spells in the game (or at least the highest concentration of them) come from the PHB. This has gotten me thinking, how would casters fare in a game where all core spells are banned?

I tend to think that druids would be the least-affected class, and that wizards would still become exponentially powerful, but not a soon as normally. I'm not sure about clerics.

Thoughts?

World Eater
2010-03-23, 07:35 PM
I can't see it going well.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-23, 07:36 PM
Clerics and Wizards have their strongest spells in Core (Time Stop, Shapechange, etc). Druids get love outside of Core, but they too use Core spells (really, the only thing you should worry about is the Bite of the WereX line in the SC, and even that can't break things outright).


It would nerf Celerity into "balanced" though, as you would lose Foresight.

ericgrau
2010-03-23, 07:41 PM
Shivering touch, orb of X, last judgement...

People who say the above are merely trying to justify their splatbooks. Yes there are some very strong core spells. They may end an encounter, or may not. For example your average caster without their save DCs pumped into celestia and ways around SR from 5 different splatbooks will average 6 save-or-dies before he takes out a difficult dragon. When an average combat lasts 5 rounds and the wizard might be dead by round 3 or 4, this is far less impressive than SoDs might seem in theory. But there are other ways he can greatly contribute to such a fight, usually involving his allies; this is merely what we call "strong". No, infinite wish cheese and so on does not count as broken, because nobody ever actually does this. Yes there are some truly broken spells in splatbooks. And there are dozens if not hundreds of others that are just as strong as the good core spells. This will not turn out well.

Book Wyrm
2010-03-23, 07:44 PM
I think you've got this a little backwards. A lot of the most broken spells come from outside of core. Celerity, the already mentioned Bite of the WereX spells, the Vigor line (not really broken just better than the Cure X Wounds line), the Orb of X spells that completely negate the entire school of evocation, Wraithstrike, Shivering Touch; the list goes on and on.

Besides that, the most broken prestige classes, ACF's, and feats (natural spell being the one exception I can think of offhand) come from outside of core. Limiting casters (and only casters) to core only is actually one of the most balancing things you can do.

EDIT: partially Ninja'd

JoshuaZ
2010-03-23, 07:46 PM
In addition to the many problems noted above let me note three other issues: 1) The majority of spells in core are not broken. Indeed, the vast majority are not. 2) Many magic items require core spells to be made. Unless one works out other rules for making those magic items they won't be constructable. A lack of magic items hurts the non-casters more than it hurts the casters. 3) Many PrCs outside core require specific core spells. For example, the Pale Master in Libris Mortis requires Vampiric Touch. There are many other examples. Thus, if core spells are removed one removes a very large number of PrCs as character options.

Ormur
2010-03-23, 07:47 PM
I maintain that selectively banning broken things individually is better than banning entire books. That just restricts choice for players that may have no intention of playing overpowered characters.

Myou
2010-03-23, 07:48 PM
Terrible idea - core spells such as Dispel Magic, Read Magic, True Seeing, Restoration, Raise Dead and the like are required for the game to function. You'd have to spend hours houseruling in a load of key spells, and you'd do nothing to improve balance.

Mushroom Ninja
2010-03-23, 07:48 PM
I think you've got this a little backwards. A lot of the most broken spells come from outside of core. Celerity, the already mentioned Bite of the WereX spells, the Vigor line (not really broken just better than the Cure X Wounds line), the Orb of X spells that completely negate the entire school of evocation, Wraithstrike, Shivering Touch; the list goes on and on.


I'm not so sure; while non-core spells are definitely powerful, it seems that it would be a lot easier to go without them than, core spells. No core means no fly, alter self, polymorph line, solid fog, phantom steed, wall of stone, etc.

EDIT: Just as clarification: I'm not seriously suggesting banning core as a balancing mechanism -- I'm just interested in how it might affect game balance.

Myou
2010-03-23, 07:52 PM
I'm not so sure; while non-core spells are definitely powerful, it seems that it would be a lot easier to go without them than, core spells. No core means no fly, alter self, polymorph line, solid fog, phantom steed, wall of stone, etc.

EDIT: Just as clarification: I'm not seriously suggesting banning core as a balancing mechanism -- I'm just interested in how it might affect game balance.

No Fly. How can you possibly think that's good? Melee may as well just roll over and die. xD

9mm
2010-03-23, 07:53 PM
I think you've got this a little backwards. A lot of the most broken spells come from outside of core. Celerity, the already mentioned Bite of the WereX spells, the Vigor line (not really broken just better than the Cure X Wounds line), the Orb of X spells that completely negate the entire school of evocation, Wraithstrike, Shivering Touch; the list goes on and on.

Besides that, the most broken prestige classes, ACF's, and feats (natural spell being the one exception I can think of offhand) come from outside of core. Limiting casters (and only casters) to core only is actually one of the most balancing things you can do.

EDIT: partially Ninja'd
.... BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAH!

oh wait your serious?

BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! *wheeze*

main change is wizards would play differently as raping actions and having access to anything in the game all but dissapears; but they would still be powerful, but very few unstoppable "I win buttons" as wizards would lose access to the following things:
Summoning
Wish
Timestop
Polymorph (any)
Shapechange
Gate
Glitterdust
Grease
Forcecage
solid fog
cloudkill
contingency

and that isn't even an exhaustive list, in otherwords they'd go back to how they were playtested, as blasters as blasting is what non-core does best surprisingly enough.

Mushroom Ninja
2010-03-23, 07:53 PM
No Fly. How can you possibly think that's good? Melee may as well just roll over and die. xD

Then again, it also makes it harder for casters to avoid melee.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-23, 07:53 PM
I think you've got this a little backwards. A lot of the most broken spells come from outside of core. Celerity, the already mentioned Bite of the WereX spells, the Vigor line (not really broken just better than the Cure X Wounds line), the Orb of X spells that completely negate the entire school of evocation, Wraithstrike, Shivering Touch; the list goes on and on.

Besides that, the most broken prestige classes, ACF's, and feats (natural spell being the one exception I can think of offhand) come from outside of core. Limiting casters (and only casters) to core only is actually one of the most balancing things you can do.


Shivering touch, orb of X, last judgement...

People who say the above are merely trying to justify their splatbooks. Yes there are some very strong core spells. They may end an encounter, or may not. No, infinite wish cheese and so on does not count as broken, because nobody ever actually does this. Yes there are some truly broken spells in splatbooks. And there are dozens if not hundreds of others that are just as strong as the good core spells. This will not turn out well.

:smallsigh:

It's not even worth reasoning with this, but I have to try.

Celerity: Broken because of Foresight, a Core spell. Without that spell, Celerity is only capable of providing Novas, and everyone knows that a good DM can deal with any nova.

Bite of the WereX: Very powerful, but not game breaker powerful. A simple fix is to not allow it while Wildshaped, saying the bonuses the spells provide don't stack with Wildshape.

Vigor: What? Healing has always been underpowered, it was actually nice to see the Devs get a clue and give us something that is actually efficient at it's job. Still not worth casting in combat (though a good Cure Moderate will be, by comparison).

Orb Of X: This was the Devs screwing up with the Spell Schools again. Change them to Evocation and everything is golden. Hell, they can't even 1-shot an encounter without serious metamagic cheese (and guess where the broken is coming from when that actually happens?).

Wraithstrike: Persistent Spell is what breaks it. Nerf that by requiring them to be able to cast the modified spell anyway (thus you can't Persist 2nd level spells until you have 8th level spells, at which point no one cares if you are in melee).

Shivering Touch: Give it a Fort save for Half and a Duration of Instantaneous and we're good.

JoshuaZ
2010-03-23, 07:57 PM
I'm not so sure; while non-core spells are definitely powerful, it seems that it would be a lot easier to go without them than, core spells. No core means no fly, alter self, polymorph line, solid fog, phantom steed, wall of stone, etc.

EDIT: Just as clarification: I'm not seriously suggesting banning core as a balancing mechanism -- I'm just interested in how it might affect game balance.

Well, wizards will not have read magic which will do interesting things. Spellcraft will matter a lot more. The lack of detect magic will be interesting. Binders will become very strong because they get some core abilities as (su) abilities. In fact, Binders and Warlocks may be the only classes able to detect magic. (Are psionic analogs of core spells banned? What about shadowcaster mysteries?).

The lack of basic scrying will be interesting. Planar travel will be much harder. That will for a very different universe.

Some non-core classes will be hurt very badly. For example, dread necromancers will lost most of their (very limited) spell list as will warmages.

Most magic items will not be constructable and magic arms and armor will be almost non-existent. This will hurt melee classes a lot. So casters will probably still be better especially at higher levels.

Edit:Unfortunately, many core spells have non-core spells that do something similar. The Spell Compendium lists a number of spells that grant flight other than the standard ones. The school that may get hit the hardest is necromancy simply because there are so few necromancy spells outside core and only a handful that allow you to make undead (but enough that do- Ghoul Gauntlet, Plague of Undead etc.) that a necromancer will still be in business.

The real killer is the lack of detect magic which just makes for a universe where you almost never know if there's some subtle magic around.

Eldariel
2010-03-23, 08:01 PM
Let's do a quick comparison between those spells and Core equivalents too:


Celerity: Broken because of Foresight, a Core spell. Without that spell, Celerity is only capable of providing Novas, and everyone knows that a good DM can deal with any nova.

In addition, e.g. Moment of Prescience and Contingency do very similar things without requiring Foresight, ensuring you get the first relevant action.


Bite of the WereX: Very powerful, but not game breaker powerful. A simple fix is to not allow it while Wildshaped, saying the bonuses the spells provide don't stack with Wildshape.

Additionally, doesn't have anything on Polymorph/Shapechange.


Vigor: What? Healing has always been underpowered, it was actually nice to see the Devs get a clue and give us something that is actually efficient at it's job. Still not worth casting in combat (though a good Cure Moderate will be, by comparison).

Nothing compared to Heal either.


Orb Of X: This was the Devs screwing up with the Spell Schools again. Change them to Evocation and everything is golden. Hell, they can't even 1-shot an encounter without serious metamagic cheese (and guess where the broken is coming from when that actually happens?).

And while they do beat out most core-only options in overall utility, purely damage-wise they're vastly surpassed by stuff like Scorching Ray too.


Wraithstrike: Persistent Spell is what breaks it. Nerf that by requiring them to be able to cast the modified spell anyway (thus you can't Persist 2nd level spells until you have 8th level spells, at which point no one cares if you are in melee).

Again, stronger than most core alternatives, but doesn't really do anything broken compared to any core spells; it just breaks a part spells aren't supposed to dominate (lol): melee combat.


Shivering Touch: Give it a Fort save for Half and a Duration of Instantaneous and we're good.

And yeah, this has something on Core-spells, but it's a touch attack and has SR; it isn't that much worse than many Necromancy Rays and Waves of Fatigue and stuff like that, though it's definitely problematic with the stupid duration-rules and such.


And none of those have anything on Time Stop, Gate, Planar Binding, Simulacrum, and many others yet-unmentioned-spells.

sofawall
2010-03-23, 08:02 PM
A simple fix is to not allow it while Wildshaped, saying the bonuses the spells provide don't stack with Wildshape.

Change them to Evocation and everything is golden.

Nerf that by requiring them to be able to cast the modified spell anyway (thus you can't Persist 2nd level spells until you have 8th level spells, at which point no one cares if you are in melee).

Shivering Touch: Give it a Fort save for Half and a Duration of Instantaneous and we're good.

Oberoni strikes again!

JoshuaZ
2010-03-23, 08:04 PM
Regarding orbs: Don't forget that the orbs also have no spell resistance and can go through anti-magic fields. In a universe without core the default blaster spells will be the orbs.

Mushroom Ninja
2010-03-23, 08:05 PM
Regarding orbs: Don't forget that the orbs also have no spell resistance and can go through anti-magic fields. In a universe without core the default blaster spells will be the orbs.

As opposed to core-only where the default blaster is weak (relatively).

JoshuaZ
2010-03-23, 08:07 PM
As opposed to core-only where the default blaster is weak (relatively).

Ok true. But the point is that banning core still leaves you with a lot of options. I still think the lack of magic items will really hurt the melee characters so much that the casters will still be supreme. It will just be a very weird universe.

Mushroom Ninja
2010-03-23, 08:09 PM
Ok true. But the point is that banning core still leaves you with a lot of options. I still think the lack of magic items will really hurt the melee characters so much that the casters will still be supreme. It will just be a very weird universe.

What if, for the sake of argument, we were to allow magic items that don't reproduce a banned spell's effect (i.e. no wands, potions, scrolls, staffs, etc.)?

JoshuaZ
2010-03-23, 08:14 PM
What if, for the sake of argument, we were to allow magic items that don't reproduce a banned spell's effect (i.e. no wands, potions, scrolls, staffs, etc.)?

Interesting. You'd need to come up with how they were made. For example, what spells would I need to make a weapon with the Brilliant Energy quality given that I don't have gaseous form and continual flame?

9mm
2010-03-23, 08:18 PM
Ok true. But the point is that banning core still leaves you with a lot of options. I still think the lack of magic items will really hurt the melee characters so much that the casters will still be supreme. It will just be a very weird universe.
not really as the majority of GOOD weapon and armor enhancements are non-core as well; melee would lose acess to Speed, Keen, Wounding, and Holy weaponry. Hardly what I'd call a big loss.

tonberrian
2010-03-23, 08:30 PM
Grappling gets a boost from no Freedom of Movement spells/rings.

Clericzilla is knocked way down without Divine Power, Divine Favor, and Righeous Might - heck, domains probably need a rewright in general.

Low level mages have less survivability without Mage Armor/Shield.

Melee takes a hit since no GMW means that Enhancement bonus actually counts on a weapon, and no Haste, Heroism, Enlarge Person, or basic +Stat spells.

Travel becomes more difficult without access to Overland Flight, Teleport et al, Plane Shift and Gate.

The Tarrasque becomes unkillable without houserules.

Gametime
2010-03-23, 08:34 PM
People who say the above are merely trying to justify their splatbooks. Yes there are some very strong core spells. They may end an encounter, or may not. For example your average caster without their save DCs pumped into celestia and ways around SR from 5 different splatbooks will average 6 save-or-dies before he takes out a difficult dragon. When an average combat lasts 5 rounds and the wizard might be dead by round 3 or 4, this is far less impressive than SoDs might seem in theory. But there are other ways he can greatly contribute to such a fight, usually involving his allies; this is merely what we call "strong". No, infinite wish cheese and so on does not count as broken, because nobody ever actually does this. Yes there are some truly broken spells in splatbooks. And there are dozens if not hundreds of others that are just as strong as the good core spells. This will not turn out well.

I question that. A level 5 spell from a caster with 20 int will have a save DC of 20 before any feats. A young adult red dragon, CR 13, has a reflex save of +11 and a will save of +13. Six spells would be approaching the upper bound on expected spells cast before one succeeds, not the average. That's without even (Greater) Spell Focus, something which a decent number of core casters are likely to have, and doesn't involve any out-of-core cheese. (Beyond finding a reflex save-or-die, which are admittedly rare, but even the Will save isn't that strong.)

This is all at level 9. Against a weaker dragon, or (better yet) a weaker enemy in general, the odds go up a lot.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-23, 08:52 PM
Oberoni strikes again!

Because the spell is playable at all without house rules. :smallannoyed:



But I know you better than that.