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View Full Version : Some advice needed (3.5, Pied's players out)



Piedmon_Sama
2010-03-23, 08:03 PM
I've been working for a long time on a major setpiece battle that's coming up in my game and have everything almost finished. The party is 11th level: a human cleric, human fighter, draconic elf monk, a killoren duskblade and a human rogue/avenging executioner.

Basically, they're going to have entered a nobleman's huge country villa to confront him, and find that the leaders of the Cult of Orcus (save one) have finally decided to openly confront them. In addition to a True Necromancer and Assassin, the inner council of Orcus has two Wizards. I want one to focus on abjuration and throwing barriers in front of our heroes, while the other should be an enchanter. 8th/9th level would be appropriate to challenge our heroes, right?

Some other things to consider: it's a low-magic game, nobody has much in the way of magic items except for their weapons and the Duskblade's scroll collection. The Fighter has a pegasus mount.

Eldariel
2010-03-23, 08:16 PM
With a level 11 party of 5, it may be underselling the fight a bit to only have level 9s against them.


For the Abjurer, I suggest: Cloistered Cleric 1/Abjurer 1/Master Specialist 7 [CM]. You're on the level when he'd just be able to enter Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil [CArc], but "just" isn't really enough (if you decide to advance them a level or two, enter Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil and keep going that way; Initiate would really be the ultimate "barrier thrower", something to consider). Either way, the idea being a counterspell/dispel master with an incomparable command of the Abjuration-school. Illumian [RoD] is the easiest way to make it happen.

Inquisition-domain from Cloistered Cleric (along with an open one), Divine Defiance from Fiendish Codex II (qualify either through Illumian's Krau-sigil or Practiced Spellcaster: Cleric) take either Precocious Apprentice [CArc] or Improved Sigil: Krau [RoD] to enter Master Specialist earlier in order to fit more levels and yeah, that's about it. At some point, give him Arcane Mastery so he can use Dispels and take 10 each time. He should probably be a Focused Specialist. While Illumian is both, most powerful and apparently quite appropriate a race too (they're inherently "cultist-types"), of course any manner of humanoid will do. Unless you want some specific creature types present?


And for Enchanter, well, not much to say, really. One level of Mindbender [CArc] along with Mindsight [LoM] seems really appropriate. Then either Nightmare Spinner's enchantment adaptation [CArc] or just...nothing special. Really, this one will mostly come down to spells prepared.

JeminiZero
2010-03-23, 08:37 PM
Some other things to consider: it's a low-magic game, nobody has much in the way of magic items except for their weapons and the Duskblade's scroll collection. The Fighter has a pegasus mount.

I would disagree with Eldariels assessment that throwing level 9s at an ECL 11 party is underselling. Since this party is not merely low magic, it also has a Fighter and a Monk. It seems likely to me that your players are punching waayyy below their weight.

Furthermore they are fighting wizards/clerics on their homeground, which greatly tilts the odds against the PCs if the enemy took time to "prepare the ground". (Without going into any complicated sheningans, given 3 full casters at ECL 9, they can at the very least raise 108 HD worth of undead, and force the PCs to fight undead in a room filled with stinking cloud, sculpted colour sprays, and other stuff which undead are immune to.)

Of course in the end, its a balance between how optimized the enemy is (which can be very optimized since they are like "schrodinger wizards" right now :smalltongue:) and how optimized the PCs are.

Eldariel
2010-03-23, 09:11 PM
I would disagree with Eldariels assessment that throwing level 9s at an ECL 11 party is underselling. Since this party is not merely low magic, it also has a Fighter and a Monk. It seems likely to me that your players are punching waayyy below their weight.

Furthermore they are fighting wizards/clerics on their homeground, which greatly tilts the odds against the PCs if the enemy took time to "prepare the ground". (Without going into any complicated sheningans, given 3 full casters at ECL 9, they can at the very least raise 108 HD worth of undead, and force the PCs to fight undead in a room filled with stinking cloud, sculpted colour sprays, and other stuff which undead are immune to.)

Of course in the end, its a balance between how optimized the enemy is (which can be very optimized since they are like "schrodinger wizards" right now :smalltongue:) and how optimized the PCs are.

Ok, ok, I admit it, I just wanted to suggest Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil since it sounded so perfect for what he wanted :smallfrown:

Piedmon_Sama
2010-03-23, 10:26 PM
Thanks for the advice Eldariel, but I don't have Complete Mage so I can't see what you're talking about. :smallfrown:

Maybe I should list what I have access to?
-Core stuff
-Unearthed Arcana
-Complete Warrior
-Complete Adventurer
-Complete Arcane
-Complete Divine
-Complete Scoundrel
-Sandstorm
-Libris Mortis
-Races of the Wild
-Races of Destiny
-Races of Stone
-Tome of Magic

That's all I've got with me while I'm on vacation. ToB isn't being used for this game. Maybe also I should show the villains I've statted so far? Not all of them are complete, but maybe this will help ballpark suggestions of where the two Wizards (who I want to be slightly less powerful than Nodine) should lie.

Nodine Tectasagine human Wizard 3/Cleric 3/True Necromancer 6; CR 12; Med. Humanoid; HD: 3d4+3d8+6d6+36 (100 hp); Init: +1; Spd: 30 ft (20 ft armor); AC: 21 (+1 dex, +3 Splint, +7 class) Touch 18, FF 13; BaB/Grp: +6/+7; Attacks: Spiked Greatclub +7 melee (1d10+1 x2 bludg/pierce); Full Attack: Spiked Greatclub +7/+2 melee (1d10+1 x2 bludg./pierce); S/R: 5/5 ft; SA: Rebuke Undead 6/day (+3); SQ: Create Undead (Sp) 2/day, Necromantic Prowess +2, Zone of Desecration; Svs: Fort +8, Ref +5, Will +15; Ablts: Str 13, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 20 (22), Cha 16
Flaws, Feats, Skills: ____________[flaw], _____________[flaw], Imp. Toughness, Spell Focus [Necromancy], Profane Lifeleech [Divine], Heighten Spell [Metamagic], Divine Vigor [Divine], Power Attack, Black Lore of Moil, Divine Might [Divine], Scribe Scroll
Spell DC Mod: +6 (+8 Necro.); Domains: ______, Undeath

Gear: Periapt of Wisdom +4;[/spoiler]

Nodine's Boyfriend; Human Vampire Fighter 10; CR 12; Medium Undead; HD: 10d12 (84 hp); Spd: 30 ft (20 ft in armor); Init: +3; AC: 29 (+4 armor, +3 dex, +3 nat., +9 class) Touch 22, FF 17; BaB/Grp: +10/+24; Attacks: MW Greatsword +21 melee (2d6+14+poison 17-20/x2 slash) or slam +18 (1d6+8+energy drain x2 bludg); Full Atk: MW Greatsword +21/+16 melee (2d6+16+poison 17-20/x2 slash) and slam +13 melee (1d6+8 x2 bludg.); S/R: 5/5 ft; SA: Blood Drain v. pinned foe 1d4 con/rnd +5 hp, summons 1d6+1 rat swarms, 1d4+1 at swarms or 3d6 wolves in 2d6 rounds 1 hr/day; Dominate Person CL 12th stndrd actn 30 ft rng, DC 19, energy drain 2 lvls/+5 hp w/slam atk; SQ: DR 4/- armor + DR 3/- nat. + DR 10/silver; alt. form bat, wolf or dires as st. actn, col/elec. resist 10, spider climb, +4 Turn Resist; Svs: Fort +7, Ref +6, Will +3; Ablts: Str 24, Dex 16, Con --, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 14
Feats/Flaws/Skills: Pride of Arms [flaw], _________ [flaw], Weapon Fc. [Greatsword], Power Attack, Imp. Sunder, Imp. Grapple, Imp. Bull Rush, __________, Cometary Collision, Weapon Spc. [Greatsword], Combat Brute [Tactical], Leap Attack, Imp. Crit. [Greatsword], Grtr Wpn Fc. [Greatsword], Lunging Strike

Vendelric, Ghoul (human) Knight 8/Cavalier 8; CR 16; Med. Undead; HD: 10d12+8d10+18 (149 hp); Init: +1; Spd: 30 ft (20 ft armor); AC: 32 (+1 dex, +4 plate, +11 class, +4 nat., +2 shield), Touch 24, FF 20; BaB/Grp: +16/+20; Atks: MW Lance +23 melee reach (1d8+6 x3 pierce) or MW Bastard Sword +22 melee (1d10 +4 19-20/x2 slash); Full Attack: MW Lance +22/+17/+12/+7 melee reach (1d8+6 x3 pierce) or MW Bastard Sword +22/+17/+12/+7 melee (1d10+4 19-20/x2 slash); S/R: 5/5 ft (10 ft lance); SA: Fighting Challenge +2/8 rnds, or Test of Mettle/8 rnds, 7x/day; SQ: Undead Traits, Shield Block +2, Bulwark of Defense, Armor Mastery (Med.), Vigilance (v. Tumble) +16, Shield Ally (for 1/2 dmg), Call to Battle (v. fear) +3, Mounted Weapon Bonus (sword & lance) +2, Burst of Speed (x2 charge distance 1/day + DC 20 Will), Full Mounted Charge (60 ft); Svs: Fort +8, Ref +5, Will +11; Ablts: Str 19, Dex 13, Con ---, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 16;
Flaws, Feats, Skills: Saddleborn Warrior [flaw], Pride of Arms [flaw], Power Attack, Weapon Focus [Lance], EWP , Weapon Focus [Bastard Sword], Mounted Combat [Class], Ride-By Attack, Spiritedcd Charge, Trample, Weapon Spc. [Lance], Cavalry Charger [Tactical], Imp. Toughness
Ride +28 (+26), Knowledge [Nobility] +13, Diplomacy +15, Intimidate +12, Jump +10(+14), Handle Animal +11
-[b]Note: Fighting Challenge + Mounted Bonus = +26/+19/+14/+9 melee
-Note: Vindelric rides a Nightmare (MM p. 194)

EDIT: Just to stave off one thing ahead of time, Nodine needs to be able to hold her own in melee combat. This is so the PCs can kill her cleanly in melee; if she relies totally on her allies to protect her, then at the end the PCs would be executing a begging woman and I want them to feel good at the end of this.

Eldariel
2010-03-24, 07:16 AM
Well, Nodine has Cleric 7 casting so she can just use Divine Power and defensive buffs to wade into melee. Though given she's a caster, she could just make peoples' heads go boom to drive home the point that she's just as dangerous as, or more-so than, any warrior. But yeah, just Divine Power + False Life + Mage Armor/Magic Vestment/Greater Magic Weapon her up and have her wade into combat (the latter buffs last all day).

Could give her Divine Metamagic: Persist (or Quicken; Quicken might suit your purposes better and makes her seem a tad less über) if you want the combat buffs to be up all day. More likely, might want to just give her Practiced Spellcaster in both, maybe one more level (True Necromancer loses so much casting that it isn't a real problem) and Beads of Karma (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#strandofPrayerBeads) for a bit stronger buffs overall. More notably, harder to dispel. This all should enable her to enter melee with relatively little trouble and actually prove a threat. Maybe Animated Shield with Magic Vestment on it too, or a Quickened casting of the Shield-spell. Also, do note that Undeath-domain grants Extra Turning as granted power and thus she should have 10 Turn Undead-attempts.


For the Abjurer, I can't honestly think of much else than Master Specialist. I think Divine Defiance is a good way to go with or without though; it allows Immediate Action Counterspell by burning a Turn Undead-use and requires Divine Caster Level 3 (so Illumian with Krau-sigil qualifies with one level of Cleric; alternatively, anyone with Practiced Spellcaster: Cleric).

Fatespinner [CArc] may also be a decent option, though it's not as thematic. Still, adjusting numbers here and there and rerolling a bit can make things much more interesting. Of course, not everyone needs PrCs but it's more interesting when specialists have abilities matching their specialization.