Explain Psionic's non-brokeness to me.

[Godskook]

Ok, I've heard it ump-teen times. Psionics is less broken/bad than Vancian magic is, but enough threads have come up that I'm starting to become confused by that.

Consider:
1.I've never heard of any analog to Psionic's save-game trick in the Vancian system.

2.I don't know of a single way to get infinite spells/day, and yet there's a thread right now listing at least two ways to get infinite PP/day.

3.The tier list gives both as having a roughly equal spread through-out the tiers(I'm only counting classes with spells/day versus those from XPH and CP), but Vancian's outlier is the Paladin, who suffers from the standard 'melee sucks' issues of core as much as anything, while they really should've known better with Soulknife...

4.Another abuse is the interesting tidbit that a L4 psion that's allowed access to a psycrystal and the leadership feat can literally have god-level characters as nth-level cohorts by RAW.

So, what am I missing? And yes, I know about pun-pun, so no need to point me to individual builds that 'break' the game. Both psionics and vancian can 'break' the game, its just seems to be a matter of how they do it.

[Deca]

I think the problem here is that Psionics themselves aren't inherently broken, just that people can, with the right feats and such, play them in horribly broken ways. And that's true with nearly every spell-casting class.

[Optimystik]

There are more (far more) broken spells than broken powers, and spells auto-scale while powers don't.

If Powers scaled automatically and psionics had as much splat support as magic, did, then yes, psionics would be more powerful. But it's not.

A wizard can create simulacra of gods, gate in level 40 solars and cast shadow miracles out of his 4th-level slots. Psionics cannot compare to that.

[sofawall]

Psions can break the game just as hard as Wizards. It just takes more work. Your average Psion is likely to be much less WTFBBQOMG than a Wizard. In TO, Wizard is more powerful, still, but Psions do hold their own extremely well. There is a reason they are high on the tier list.

[AslanCross]

1. I don't know what that is, care to elaborate?

2. Vancian casters don't need infinite spells to break the game, and the gate chain is what I would call the infinite use of casting, though it operates on another principle.

3. I'm not so sure how this is an argument to brokenness.

4. I'm not sure how this works either, so I can't comment on that.


Most of the arguments I hear of people saying Psionics is broken are based on a misunderstanding of Augmentation. They think you can just spend all your juice and nova the hell out of the game, but it doesn't work that way as we all know and should know.

Another is people thinking 3.5 psionics = 3.0 psionics, which allows you to use ANY ability score as your casting ability, if I'm not mistaken, making horribly SAD builds.

[Toliudar]

Because psionics has so many fewer powers/feats/item enhancements to keep track of than vancian, there are fewer abusive combinations to keep track of.

[Runestar]

To rephrase, psionics is generally more balanced than vancian spellcasting. So long as you shy away from the few broken tricks, you should have a much more positive experience with psionics overall. :smallsmile:

[tyckspoon]

Another is people thinking 3.5 psionics = 3.0 psionics, which allows you to use ANY ability score as your casting ability, if I'm not mistaken, making horribly SAD builds.

Not quite- each psionic discipline had its own manifesting stat. So.. you *could* make a Con-SAD psion.. if you didn't mind only having high level powers from Psychometabolism (to be fair, that covers the psionic versions of Polymorph and Shapechange, so you can be pretty awesome) but in practice you would be the most absurdly MAD character possible if you wanted any sort of versatility.

[Lycanthromancer]

Because psionics has so many fewer powers/feats/item enhancements to keep track of than vancian, there are fewer abusive combinations to keep track of.Even core-only has considerably more insane abuses Vancian can use, and although psionics does have a few, Bruce Cordell and the other people who worked on the XPH did manage to weed out most of them.

So no 36,000d6 points of force damage from dispelling a book full of explosive runes, or chain-gating solars, or getting infinite wishes at level 7 (or so), or having 20 or more no-save-just-die buttons on any given day.

Part of core magic's problem is that nobody playtested the spells with an eye toward using imagination to catch obviously broken abuses, where psionics was.

[chiasaur11]

So, yeah. Psionics can, with extensive effort, break the game.

Druids accidentally break the game by existing.

[Akal Saris]

Yeah...psionics is spell-casting's little brother, really. if you think spells are broken, the psionics are too, just less so. If you don't think spell-casting is broken, then psionics aren't broken either. Personally, I think the Psion/Erudite is broken, and the rest are probably alright.

1. Rough analog to the save-game trick: Wish/Miracle for "Undo Misfortune". Spend the Exp, wish that an encounter never happened or the vital roll last round actually was a 20. Combine with loads of divinations, contact other plane, and time stop. Alternatively, Craft Contingent Spell along with Contingency and Chain Contingency. That's about 22 get-out-of-jail spells - enough that you should never need to "reset" your days' adventuring.

2. Spellcasting Infinite spells/day: gain immunity to harmful effects of disease (cancer mage, disease domain, feat from Libris Mortis, etc), combined with the endless anger disease from BoVD that adds +2 strength per day, combined with illumian to make Str your stat to determine bonus spells. NI amounts of Strength = NI amounts of bonus spell slots. Doable from 2nd level or so.

Alternatively, tainted sorcerer + undead for NI amounts of taint (easily gained just through spellcasting) + taint setting your ability score for bonus spells = NI amount of bonus spell slots.

3. Yeah, who knows what they were thinking with soulknife? Battlemind in 4E isn't much better than 3.5 Soulknife, so they certainly haven't learned from their mistakes either.

4. Interesting, but then again a level 4 kobold could be a sorcerer "7", or a level 6 kobold wiz/zhentarim skymage could have a balor as his pokemon. Nifty build but not a stand-out by itself (and who follows some guy's pet rock?) Leadership is already listed as "the DM is free to disallow this feat if it will unbalance his campaign" in the DMG anyhow.

[Lycanthromancer]

So, yeah. Psionics can, with extensive effort, break the game.

Druids accidentally break the game by existing.And WHO just lost The Game, huh?

[BobVosh]

And WHO just lost The Game, huh?

Any DM that has to really worry if his players are going to try most of the stuff on these forums.

[Godskook]

1. I don't know what that is, care to elaborate?

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=146470


3. I'm not so sure how this is an argument to brokenness.

Its not. Its an argument that Vancian magic isn't any less broken.


4. I'm not sure how this works either, so I can't comment on that.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7959007&postcount=10

[JoshuaZ]

Ok. Most people agree that psicrystals were probably not intended to be able to take feats (although many play with them being able to do so). Second, the notion of leadership being able to be taken by someone who is following someone else is often considered unacceptable in general (Try to persuade your DM that when you take leadership your cohort can do so also).

The save-game trick requires many different splat books and includes Sending Stones which are an arcane item. The save-game trick is by comparison more complicated than say level 1 kobold paladin entry into Pun-Pun.

(Also you actually didn't include some of the worst tricks for psionics. There are at least three ways to get arbitrarily many power points (note that this is distinct from infinitely many. I'm not aware of any procedure that actually allows that)).

This is distinct from with arcane magic which has so many problems it isn't funny. And even the ones that don't break the game in the sense of creating infinite or arbitrarily large quantities of something, they make the game ridiculous.

But yes, you do need to rule out a handful of things that are silly in psionics. Just as you need to do so for a lot of silly arcane and divine tricks.

[SparkMandriller]

3.The tier list gives both as having a roughly equal spread through-out the tiers(I'm only counting classes with spells/day versus those from XPH and CP), but Vancian's outlier is the Paladin, who suffers from the standard 'melee sucks' issues of core as much as anything, while they really should've known better with Soulknife...

Pretty certain that when people say casters are broken, they're not talking about Paladins.

[thubby]

infinite pp isn't that dangerous to begin with. yes you'll be a full power all day, but you're no more powerful in a given round or a given encounter than a comparably leveled wizard.

if you spend any substantial resources on it you may as well be a mystic thurge.

[Draz74]

Neither system is inherently more or less game-breaking than the other. With either system, it all comes down to what spells/powers, feats, classes, PrCs, and characters are involved.

That said, it's not that weird to judge a game subsystem by the classes/characters that are most common from it.

So the claim that Psionics is less broken than Vancian casting is really just a paraphrase of the statement that Psions and Psychic Warriors are lower-Tier than Clerics, Druids, Wizards, and Sorcerers.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You forgot to mention Affinity Field (replace 'you' with 'psicrystal') + Synchronicity + Share Powers to get NI standard actions in a single round. Though you could also cast Genesis to create a pocket plane where one day there is one round on the material plane, and at the start of every fight cast Gate to make a portal there, step through, rest and prepare all the right spells to beat the encounter, and then stand at your Gate portal (whose duration is measured from the material plane) and cast spells at your opponents on the material plane for over nine thousand rounds before they even get a chance to take any actions.

In any system where there are lots and lots and lots of options, you're going to be able to combine certain abilities in a way that break the game. Psionics is no exception to this, but that does not mean the entire system is broken or overpowered. In actual play, psionic characters have powerful abilities, but spellcasters also have powerful abilities. It just so happens that the spellcasters' powerful abilities and synergistic builds are far superior to the psionic equivalents. I hope that answers your question.

[arguskos]

Godskook, since no one else has really said this straight-out yet, the reason behind why psionics are perceived as "less broken" than more standard Vancian-esque casting is due to amount of material. Psionics have their tricks, yes, but in general, the limited amount of material means that there are simply LESS tricks and that they tend towards being harder than arcane/divine magic tricks are. As they say, options lead to variety, and variety means something somewhere will break down.

[Sinfire Titan]

And WHO just lost The Game, huh?

Dammit...



1.I've never heard of any analog to Psionic's save-game trick in the Vancian system.

But you've heard of Pun-Pun, right? Guess what? Prior to FC1, the fastest build to achieve that power was a Wizard, not a Psion (though the Psionic version was possible, it was not usable until 11th level whereas the Wizard could pull it off at 5th).


2.I don't know of a single way to get infinite spells/day, and yet there's a thread right now listing at least two ways to get infinite PP/day.

Rope Trick. Gate to a Demiplane with a faster time trait (preferably a custom-made one using Genesis, something Psionics can't do), Echo Spell, Tainted Scholar (not so much infinite so much as absurd amount), there's several.


3.The tier list gives both as having a roughly equal spread through-out the tiers(I'm only counting classes with spells/day versus those from XPH and CP), but Vancian's outlier is the Paladin, who suffers from the standard 'melee sucks' issues of core as much as anything, while they really should've known better with Soulknife...

What?


4.Another abuse is the interesting tidbit that a L4 psion that's allowed access to a psycrystal and the leadership feat can literally have god-level characters as nth-level cohorts by RAW.

And Wizards could do that with Chain Spell (Dominate Person lasts for a long time...).

Hell, you could do this with Core only just by using the effing Leadership feat (just have your followers take it).

[Math_Mage]

3.The tier list gives both as having a roughly equal spread through-out the tiers(I'm only counting classes with spells/day versus those from XPH and CP), but Vancian's outlier is the Paladin, who suffers from the standard 'melee sucks' issues of core as much as anything, while they really should've known better with Soulknife...

Okay, since a lot of people seem to be not getting this complaint, my interpretation is "Vancian's worst is worse than Psionics' worst." That doesn't seem like a great argument for anything, but, well, whatever.

[Rockphed]

Godskook, since no one else has really said this straight-out yet, the reason behind why psionics are perceived as "less broken" than more standard Vancian-esque casting is due to amount of material. Psionics have their tricks, yes, but in general, the limited amount of material means that there are simply LESS tricks and that they tend towards being harder than arcane/divine magic tricks are. As they say, options lead to variety, and variety means something somewhere will break down.

So, in other words, Psionics is only less broken because there is less of it? Gee, that fills me with confidence.

[Ashiel]

It's much harder to break psionics than it is to break core casting. Psionic characters have to try to break stuff; where core casting does naturally (Example: Wall of Iron creates roughly 2700gp worth of trade goods for 50gp material components). Psionics has more limiters and inhibitors to what they can do. If you compare Core Psionics (in the SRD / Expanded Psionics Handbook) to Core Magic (in the SRD / PHB), Psionics is better balanced.

For example; there are strict limitations on how much meta-magic a psion can pump into something. Psions have to pay for increasing power for their abilities. Psions tend to have less powerful powers than magic has spells (while they have stronger blasting spells, blasting is underpowered in core magic, while they don't possess stuff like Black Tentacles or a lot of save or dies, so you end up with good on both sides - and that's coming from someone who loves playing a SoD caster).

Wizards have their ways of gaining near infinite spells. A very effective way is a wand of menmonic enhancer. A psionic equivalent exists, but it cannot be placed into a magic/psionic item per the description of the power. Effectively, a wizard can drop some gold on a wand or two and say "Ok, I feel like 18 extra disjunctions, gates, shapechanges, and wail of the banshees today."

Psionic tricks for regenerating PP are few. They exist but obvious care went into making that very difficult to do within the core psionic rules. The most famous psionic stuff that is broken comes from the Complete Psionic. Ever notice that no one ever mentions the Psion as being so incredibly busted, but that one class is. That one with the spell-to-power option especially.

All in all, the Psionics system is just a better system than Vancian casting for a lot of reasons; and in 3.5, balance is actually a pretty good reason. The other reasons tend to be:

1) It's more conceptual and multi-class friendly to fulfill a variety of character concepts. You don't have to deal with being able to hold bat poo and waggle your arms, and what-not.

2) It's more fluid. You can either play your Psion more like a sorcerer or more like a Warlock. You choose how much power you go with. You can either have lots of steady power over a long time, or more power in short bursts.

3) It is more "magical" in the mechanics than core magic is. Core magic requires wizards to study for hours over books and various formulas, combine various ingredients and such, and memorize and forget different spells. Psions meditate and draw their power from within, and they use that to shape the world around them with the power of their will. Manifesting powers can even hurt the Psion for pushing themselves too far (see Overchannel and Body Fuel feats) beyond their limits.

[magic9mushroom]

Psionics are more broken due to the existence of the Spell to Power Erudite. The OP is hence right. But when people say "psionics isn't broken", they're not talking about the StP Erudite.

The reason XPH is less broken is a) because all the classes in it have a hard cap on powers known, b) because there's less support for psionics in other books, c) because metapsionics can't be abused the way metamagic can.

[RagnaroksChosen]

I think people thinks psionics is broken because it's easy to optimise. I think alot easyer then most full casters druid being exception to that of course.

[Optimystik]

Psionics are more broken due to the existence of the Spell to Power Erudite.

Which is itself broken by spells, e.g. Mental Pinnacle. If you have an StP Erudite that doesn't actually convert any magic, he won't be any more broken than a Psion.

So magic is still the bigger gamebreaker.

[Greenish]

I think people thinks psionics is broken because it's easy to optimise. I think alot easyer then most full casters druid being exception to that of course.How is it easier to optimize? Because you have less options?

[Draxar]

2.I don't know of a single way to get infinite spells/day, and yet there's a thread right now listing at least two ways to get infinite PP/day.

Cataclysm Mage from Eberron. Has a class feature that allows you to spend an action point to get (class level) levels of spells back. There's a 3rd or 4th level spell that grants you multiple action points.

There are some broken tricks with Psionics, but there are much less broken actual powers than there are broken spells, even if you ignore the larger amount of material available for spellcasters.

[imperialspectre]

The argument that psionics is less broken than spellcasting isn't based on TO. You can TO almost anything to the point of brokenness - see the Jumplomancer, the Ubercharger, and other TO builds that don't require any casting or manifesting at all.

Psionics is less broken than spellcasting at the practical, game-table level because it has fewer overtly overpowered abilities, there are more practical caps on powers known (barring erudite) that restrict you from doing everything ridiculously well, and generally speaking you have to pay for more of the things that you get. Even infinite PP combos, which are on the border between practical and theoretical optimization, often require enough actions or time commitment that there are practical costs to doing them.

[DragoonWraith]

Also, a lot of people, when talking about Psionics, are talking about the Expanded Psionics Handbook only. Complete Psionic was awful, and one of the reasons for that is that most of the game-breaking tricks for Psionics relies on stupid, stupid material from that book.

[Melayl]

I believe that this (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/18833134/Myth:_The_XPH_is_overpowered) thread will explain everything you are looking for Godskook.

This (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19571246/New_3.5_Psionics_FAQ) thread also has useful information about Psionics in 3.5.

[RagnaroksChosen]

How is it easier to optimize? Because you have less options?

No mainly of how easy it is to get a more powerfull effect then the equivelent spell. Such as damage spells easily doing more damage then the equivelent spell. mage armour/psionic mage armour. the psionic version IMO is ten times better. some spells/powers are the same though like grease. I can just see how people would consider this over powered. I think it takes a certain amount of criticaling thinking power to see that there actualy well balanced.

I personaly don't think psionics is over powered i love it. to me wilder/psion/psiwarrior are solid tier 1-2's IMO.
Not sure where there actualy placed though.

[Greenish]

No mainly of how easy it is to get a more powerfull effect then the equivelent spell.You lost me there, are you referring to augmenting? Because picking a power and augmenting it doesn't seem easier than just picking a spell.

to me wilder/psion/psiwarrior are solid tier 1-2's IMO.
Not sure where there actualy placed though.Psions and wilders are somewhere between tiers 1 and 2, but psywar is "down" to tier 3. Then there's the unfortunate Soulknife who doesn't actually even use psionics (other than in fluff sense), and is tier 5, I seem to recall.

[RagnaroksChosen]

You lost me there, are you referring to augmenting? Because picking a power and augmenting it doesn't seem easier than just picking a spell.
Psions and wilders are somewhere between tiers 1 and 2, but psywar is "down" to tier 3. Then there's the unfortunate Soulknife who doesn't actually even use psionics (other than in fluff sense), and is tier 5, I seem to recall.

I'm just saying that i can see how people can think its over powered because you can get amazing effects very easily. I don't actualy think it is i can just understand.

[Greenish]

I'm just saying that i can see how people can think its over powered because you can get amazing effects very easily.Yes, and I'm trying to understand why you think lobbing an augmented power is easier than lobbing a fireball, and what the ease of doing either has to do with the ease of optimization (which for most casters usually starts with not lobbing fireballs).

Sure, psionics is very intuitive and easy to grasp as a system, but that hardly makes it easier to optimize than bullet magic.

[Optimystik]

I'm just saying that i can see how people can think its over powered because you can get amazing effects very easily. I don't actualy think it is i can just understand.

I get what you're saying, but I think it's even easier to get amazing effects with magic.

Psions can't summon/call outsiders with a ton of SLAs, or perform any kind of illusion/necromancy, or cheese their way into PrCs with one manifester level, and a large portion of their buffs are self-only.

The only thing Psions usually do better is blasting, and even that is debatable - it's much harder to stack metapsionics than metamagic.

[RagnaroksChosen]

I get what you're saying, but I think it's even easier to get amazing effects with magic.

Psions can't summon/call outsiders with a ton of SLAs, or perform any kind of illusion/necromancy, or cheese their way into PrCs with one manifester level, and a large portion of their buffs are self-only.

The only thing Psions usually do better is blasting, and even that is debatable - it's much harder to stack metapsionics than metamagic.

agreed. I was just trying to explain why people look at it and says it's OP. I know alot of local gms around me said that before some one(ususaly me) explained to them how its actually decently balanced.

[Godskook]

This:


The argument that psionics is less broken than spellcasting isn't based on TO. You can TO almost anything to the point of brokenness - see the Jumplomancer, the Ubercharger, and other TO builds that don't require any casting or manifesting at all.

Psionics is less broken than spellcasting at the practical, game-table level because it has fewer overtly overpowered abilities, there are more practical caps on powers known (barring erudite) that restrict you from doing everything ridiculously well, and generally speaking you have to pay for more of the things that you get. Even infinite PP combos, which are on the border between practical and theoretical optimization, often require enough actions or time commitment that there are practical costs to doing them.

is the heart of what I was asking for, guys. Thanks, imperialspectre.

[RagnaroksChosen]

Yes, and I'm trying to understand why you think lobbing an augmented power is easier than lobbing a fireball, and what the ease of doing either has to do with the ease of optimization (which for most casters usually starts with not lobbing fireballs).

Sure, psionics is very intuitive and easy to grasp as a system, but that hardly makes it easier to optimize than bullet magic.


What i ment to say is out of the box. its easyer to optimise out of the box. Where as wizards to truly optimise need to go and look around. I'm of course talking about non CO/TO and actualy game play... If we are just talking about pure optimising the wizards win hands down. Just trying to take a perspective froma non co/to

[Nero24200]

I get what you're saying, but I think it's even easier to get amazing effects with magic.

Psions can't summon/call outsiders with a ton of SLAs, or perform any kind of illusion/necromancy, or cheese their way into PrCs with one manifester level, and a large portion of their buffs are self-only.

The only thing Psions usually do better is blasting, and even that is debatable - it's much harder to stack metapsionics than metamagic.


I think this just abouts sums it up nicely.

However, there may be another reason for the slew of "Vancian is more broken than Psionics" attitude. For me personally, I don't see psionics as being broken at all, but due to their previous incarnations they don't have a good reputation.

Which results in alot of DM's and players claiming that 3.5 Psionics is overpowering without even reading the book. I've encoutered players and DM's who happily scream "Broken" at every action a psion pulls - even if avaliable to the wizard.

I have a few examples of these in fact. I once saw a NPC psion take on a party and kill a few of the PC's. The Psion got a little lucky with his rolls, and the PC's got revived afterwards, but the players were more than happy to say that Psionics are broken. The DM then showed us the power list of the Psion. Just about every single power this Psion had was "Psionic X", such as Psionic Disintergrate, Psionic Charm etc. It turns out the DM loved the psionic fluff, but was still unfamilier with the rules, so he had the psion only use powers which wizard's had as spells.

Coincidently, in that particular group wer've had NPC wizards/clerics/druids cause TPK's, but their power is never questioned. Luckily, both myself and the DM from that group left.

Theres other examples as well, usally involving players not reading the rules right. I remember once arguing with someone who claimed psions themselves were broken because at 1st Level they could use Mind Thrust to deal 4D10 damage to someone even whilst bound, blindfolded and gagged. The player obviously hadn't read the rules since

A. It says in the power entry that powers with a target require the psion to see the target.
B. You cannot spend more power points on a single power than your manifester level, making 4D10 damage unavaliable until 4th level minimum.
C. That even if the Psion could do that, it would be stupid, since a single lucky saving throw is enough to negate it.

Theres also the fact that some people will quite happily label Psionics as a whole "broken" because of something they don't like. Think the Psychic Warrior is stronger than a fighter? Clearly every other class in the book must be broken then (Nevermind that the Soulknife and Wilder are considered horribly underpowered).

In the hands of upoptimised players, Psions and Vancian caster's do not "own the game". On the other hand, if someone tries to optmise, theres plenty they can do with vancian casters, and what's more, some of the worst offenders are core.

While I'm at it, a link to the definiation of Codzilla. Look at the bottom to see what inspired the first use of the phrase (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CoDzilla)

[Quietus]

What i ment to say is out of the box. its easyer to optimise out of the box. Where as wizards to truly optimise need to go and look around. I'm of course talking about non CO/TO and actualy game play... If we are just talking about pure optimising the wizards win hands down. Just trying to take a perspective froma non co/to

Explain some of these tricks at the table, please? It seems to me like you're taking a power like Defensive Precognition (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/precognitionDefensive.htm), which adds +1 to your AC and saves for 1 PP, then increases by 1 for every 3 additional PP you spend. You have to remember, however, that A) You cannot spend more PP in a round than you have manifester level, and B) Spending more power points is like casting it at a higher level. Yes, you could sink, say, 19 PP into the move and get +7 insight to AC and saves. However, that's the equivalent of casting a tenth level spell. Is +7 to AC and saves out of line for a tenth level spell?

Yes, it's a first level power. Just stating that and saying it's overpowered is invalid, because augmentation makes it EFFECTIVELY a higher leveled power, for all purposes except what, counterspelling?

[Greenish]

What i ment to say is out of the box. its easyer to optimise out of the box. Where as wizards to truly optimise need to go and look around.Could you please explain what you mean by this. Just repeating yourself isn't getting your point to my thick skull.

[Soranar]

Thread question: can psionics nuke the game?

answers

-they can only do it 20 times while a wizard can do it 3000 times!
-a wizard does it better
-a druid is a nuke
-20 times isn't that bad as far as nuclear disasters go
-seriously, 20 times isn't so bad, and it requires a lot more reading

...

just DM fiat stuff that bothers you so they don't nuke your game (ban psicrystals and erudite and nuking your game will become pretty hard for a psion, if in trouble I recommend the falling piano from a nearby hulking hurler to squish the problem)

[kamikasei]

Thread question: can psionics nuke the game?

That wasn't the question.

[Optimystik]

-20 times isn't that bad as far as nuclear disasters go

You realize you can "nuclear disaster" with just about anything, even a Truenamer, right?

Asking if something can break the game is meaningless; the answer is almost always yes.

[RagnaroksChosen]

aparently i mis understood the orginal posters question i thought he was asking why people think psionics is over powered. I was just trying to re-enforce the, not having enough knowledge about it/ how newer players tend to think its over powered. That is all.

[Melayl]

I believe that this (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/18833134/Myth:_The_XPH_is_overpowered) thread will explain everything you are looking for Godskook.

This (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19571246/New_3.5_Psionics_FAQ) thread also has useful information about Psionics in 3.5.

Seriously, just click the first link. It goes to an essay on the WotC boards by Tempest Stormwind outlining all of the reasons people think psionics is overpowered, and answering each and every one of them to show that it is not.

It will answer all of your questions.

[Lycanthromancer]

Seriously, just click the first link. It goes to an essay on the WotC boards by Tempest Stormwind outlining all of the reasons people think psionics is overpowered, and answering each and every one of them to show that it is not.

It will answer all of your questions.That's "Bacris," actually.

[monkey3]

There is a huge difference between theorycraft, and actually playing the game. The rules-as-written allow for all kinds of stupid abuses, specially when an obtuse player is interpreting all ambiguities his own way.

That is why this game cannot be played without a DM. The same DM who allows a player to be Punpun, will fall for the infinite pp/day trick. 99% of the DM won't, so the argument becomes academic and nothing more.

To answer the original question, stop reading the forums if you want to know the power of psionics. Play a psionic character in a campaign (with a DM) that has the recommended 4 encounters per day. If at the end of the night you feel they are overpowered, please come here and post your observations.

[cfalcon]

Basically, your DM (or you, if you are the DM) has likely had some years of dealing with spells that interact in a deviant fashion- or the exploits involve splat material that they ban anyway. Whereas psionics, legwork has to be done. What are the exploits. What lets the most abilities stay alive while preserving the intention but filling the hole.

Psions nova too easily, and you don't want to just get rid of all the abilities that do that. So that's probably the core reason. Once you get your houserules in place, psionics is just as fair as the houseruled magic you are already running with.

[Tinydwarfman]

Ok, I've heard it ump-teen times. Psionics is less broken/bad than Vancian magic is, but enough threads have come up that I'm starting to become confused by that.

Consider:
1.I've never heard of any analog to Psionic's save-game trick in the Vancian system.

2.I don't know of a single way to get infinite spells/day, and yet there's a thread right now listing at least two ways to get infinite PP/day.

3.The tier list gives both as having a roughly equal spread through-out the tiers(I'm only counting classes with spells/day versus those from XPH and CP), but Vancian's outlier is the Paladin, who suffers from the standard 'melee sucks' issues of core as much as anything, while they really should've known better with Soulknife...

4.Another abuse is the interesting tidbit that a L4 psion that's allowed access to a psycrystal and the leadership feat can literally have god-level characters as nth-level cohorts by RAW.

So, what am I missing? And yes, I know about pun-pun, so no need to point me to individual builds that 'break' the game. Both psionics and vancian can 'break' the game, its just seems to be a matter of how they do it.

There are a few things wrong with your logic,
1. You are asking us to prove the negative, which is a logical fallacy.
2. All you give as examples that it is broken are TO builds and trick, then say don't bring up examples of TO for vancian. :smallannoyed:
3. (although not really a logic thing) The soulknife actually isn't psionic at all, it gets no casting.

That being said, the question has already been answered, so I guess my post is pointless. Just wanted to put that out there though.

[Melayl]

That's "Bacris," actually.

D'Oh! Oops. It had been so long since I read it that I forgot Bacris actually wrote it.

[magic9mushroom]

No mainly of how easy it is to get a more powerfull effect then the equivelent spell. Such as damage spells easily doing more damage then the equivelent spell. mage armour/psionic mage armour. the psionic version IMO is ten times better. some spells/powers are the same though like grease. I can just see how people would consider this over powered. I think it takes a certain amount of criticaling thinking power to see that there actualy well balanced.

I personaly don't think psionics is over powered i love it. to me wilder/psion/psiwarrior are solid tier 1-2's IMO.
Not sure where there actualy placed though.

Damage powers actually generally do less/are more difficult for the same effect. The advantage of psionics is merely that they only take up a small amount of Powers Known.

After all, for a caster, a 3rd level spell can do up to 10d6 damage. For a psion, spending 5 power points (the equivalent) can only do 5d6 damage. Even at the early levels, this tends to hold (as a caster casting 3rd level spells shouldn't have a caster level under 5 unless something's seriously wrong *cough*Ur-Priest*cough*).

Now, where you have a point is things like Psionic Charm or Psionic Dominate, where you can just spend PP to get extra save DC and other stuff. It's basically free Heighten - but that's all it really is.

[Caewil]

I once played a Telepath with talented and overchannel. Boosted my Psionic Charm by two or three points and fully augmented it for an awesome save DC and the ability to affect monsters, abberations, etc - and then manifested it on a disguised construct.

They're nice spells but completely useless against undead, constructs or anyone with mind blank up. The net result was that I had to nuke everything with my expanded knowledge energy bolt to prevent a TPK.

[magic9mushroom]

I once played a Telepath with talented and overchannel. Boosted my Psionic Charm by two or three points and fully augmented it for an awesome save DC and the ability to affect monsters, abberations, etc - and then manifested it on a disguised construct.

They're nice spells but completely useless against undead, constructs or anyone with mind blank up. The net result was that I had to nuke everything with my expanded knowledge energy bolt to prevent a TPK.

All I'm saying is that that's where Psionics does have the advantage over Vancian casting.

[Captain Six]

So, in other words, Psionics is only less broken because there is less of it? Gee, that fills me with confidence.

Welcome to Dungeons and Dragons. :smallbiggrin: If it doesn't share a spell list with a core caster then it will never stand up to the rest.

[magic9mushroom]

Welcome to Dungeons and Dragons. :smallbiggrin: If it doesn't share a spell list with a core caster then it will never stand up to the rest.

Pun-Pun is a level 1 Kobold Paladin. Paladins are core casters, but not full ones.

[sonofzeal]

Pun-Pun is a level 1 Kobold Paladin. Paladins are core casters, but not full ones.
The Paladin portion is optional, last I heard. AFAIK it can be done with Commoners, which is as far away from "caster" as you can get and still have 1/2 BAB with d4 HD.

[magic9mushroom]

The Paladin portion is optional, last I heard. AFAIK it can be done with Commoners, which is as far away from "caster" as you can get and still have 1/2 BAB with d4 HD.

The Kobold part is more optional. The "Paladin" bit is because there's the clause in there about Pazuzu not corrupting Paladin wishes.

But yes, a Commoner could get away with it.

[Sophismata]

Now, where you have a point is things like Psionic Charm or Psionic Dominate, where you can just spend PP to get extra save DC and other stuff. It's basically free Heighten - but that's all it really is.

It's not a free Heighten - it's Heighten, bought and paid for with power points.

Unless you meant you got a free feat in the (innate) ability to Heighten powers.

[Godskook]

Seriously, just click the first link. It goes to an essay on the WotC boards by Tempest Stormwind outlining all of the reasons people think psionics is overpowered, and answering each and every one of them to show that it is not.

It will answer all of your questions.

I've read that thing, twice(well, three times now, just to be sure). Just FYI. The question of this thread(which is answered well enough) has almost nothing to do with it. That's more about convincing DMs that Psionics is balanced enough to have a place on their table, while I was moreso asking about why the fandom thinks Psionics is superior to Vancian as a system.

[magic9mushroom]

It's not a free Heighten - it's Heighten, bought and paid for with power points.

Unless you meant you got a free feat in the (innate) ability to Heighten powers.

Free as in you don't have to spend a feat.

Spending extra PP ~ increase in spell level from Heighten, so you're just not having to spend a feat getting it.

It's occasionally a low-cost Heighten, if augmenting gives other useful stuff.

[Ashiel]

Free as in you don't have to spend a feat.

Spending extra PP ~ increase in spell level from Heighten, so you're just not having to spend a feat getting it.

It's occasionally a low-cost Heighten, if augmenting gives other useful stuff.

One thing that's important to remember is it's not true Heighten Spell. For example; if you augment a mind thrust to cost 20 PP to deal 20d10 save negates, mind-affecting, damage, it is still a 1st level power. While you're spending a full-powered 9th level power's value on it, it is still completely crushed by effects that absorb or negate spell levels (such as lesser spell mantle).

Edit:

Additionally, it's harder for psionicists to pimp their powers out. The psionic equivalent to Spell Focus requires you to expend your psionic focus. Using a meta-psionic feat requires you to expend your psionic focus. Using a number of feats may require you to be psionically focused or expend your psionic focus. Essentially, there's really only so much you can do before you run out of your 1 or 2 psionic foci.

That means, there are no split-rayed maximized twin-spelled psionics. It also means it's almost impossible to spam save or die powers (like crystalize (the psi-equivalent to flesh to stone), disintegrate, or anything else) with the same save DCs as a normal caster.

The only power that really can reach stupid-high save DCs is energy stun, and it stands out as an oddity; because it doesn't follow the normal rules for psionics and isn't explained why (generally a power increases its save DC by +1 for every 2 power points spent; while energy stun is 1:1 with no given explanation).

[Greenish]

why the fandom thinks Psionics is superior to Vancian as a system.I don't know what "fandom" thinks, but I consider Psionics more fun than Vancian magic because you can adjust the power of your 'spells' on the fly, and you're not locked to the bullets you loaded on the morning like prepared casters. Power points also allow you to use any power (if you have enough of them left), not just powers of X level like spontaneous casters.