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licidy
2010-03-24, 05:21 AM
So I'm running a campaign were big-bad's primary minion is a summoner. Here's what she's got so far:

Human Conj 3/Master Specialist 10/Archmage 2

She'll eventually go into Alienist but that requires the PC's to drive her insane first. Currently she's LN and under magical manipulation to do evil deeds, and the players will find this out right before confronting her. If the player's reveal to her that she's being controlled, she'll lose all touch with the world, go crazy, teleport away and switch to CE. Sort of an easy-way-out scenario that the player's could use.

Feats:

Spell Focus (conj)
Spell Focus (trans)
Ability Enhancer (trans spells that enhance ability scores increase by +2)
Imbue Summoning (metamagic; +1 lv; summoned creatures get a 3rd lv touch spell cast on them as they are summoned)
Augment Summoning (+4 Str, +4Con to summons) [bonus]
Snowcasting
Icycalling (if temp is 40 or below summons get +4 Str, +4 Dex; if -20 or below they have max HP)
Beckon the Frozen (add cold subtype to summons, they deal +1d6 cold dmg)
Greater Spell Focus (conj) [bonus]
Skill Focus (spellcraft) [bonus]


Variants:
Using the Enhanced Summoning and Rapid Summoning Variants from Unearthed Arcana

So Currently:
Under a Fimbulwinter, all summons get +4 Str, +4 Dex, +4 Con, +1d6 cold dmg, max HP, bonus HP = to caster level (minor school esoterica), cost only a standard action to summon (rapid summoning), 3/day can summon as a swift action (major school esoterica), and if using Imbued they can receive a +6 bonus to an ability score.

After Alienist is added the summons then get True Strike 1/day

What are people's thoughts?

EDIT: str bonus changed for non-stack

Gnorman
2010-03-24, 05:25 AM
A minion of Father Llymic?

EDIT: Also, the STR bonuses from Augment Summoning and Icy Calling don't stack.

licidy
2010-03-24, 05:27 AM
Thanks, changed it :-)

Runestar
2010-03-24, 05:45 AM
You may want to start thinking of what to do with your summoned monsters. At that lv, they seem more about debuffing the PCs (eg: bull-rushing, tripping, auras), and less so about brute strength, considering their relatively low cr.

For instance, imbued summoning can be used on a djinni to give it heroics, replicating mageslayer, which disables defensive casting.

licidy
2010-03-24, 05:59 AM
For instance, imbued summoning can be used on a djinni to give it heroics, replicating mageslayer, which disables defensive casting.

NICE tactic!! I'm making note of that one. :smallsmile:

Another tactic I was looking forward to once Alienist is picked up is summoning a large number of Fiendish Dire Weasels in 1 round (2d4+2 if cast twice) and having them all use their True Strike to latch on - Con Damage galore! :sabine:

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-03-24, 10:53 AM
I would avoid Alienist, as it really doesn't offer much to the table and ends up partially harming the caster. You would be better spent going into Thaumaturgist (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/thaumaturgist.htm) by grabbing Arcane Disciple (Summoning). It does leave you neutral on feats, but having another contingency of sorts may help.

Barring that, hit Incantatrix like a bad man to lower the cost of Imbued Summoning. That or Easy/Practical Metamagic. There should also be a feat in Eberron to allow you to blow action points to decrease metamagic costs, along with a 3rd level spell that gives a free action point/round/CL rounds, if you're using such rules.

Caphi
2010-03-24, 11:14 AM
I want to suggest Cloudy Conjuration, but I don't remember if the summoned creatures are immune to the effect.

Preemptive edit: They are.

Akal Saris
2010-03-24, 11:30 AM
Looks good - just make sure to summon monsters that will challenge the PCs appropriately, and give her some good defensive buffs and items (greater mirror image, contingent whatever, etc).

Alienist is fun - I won 6 straight arena games in a spellcasters-only arena with my alienist and his mob of pseudonatural dire bats. Nothing like blindsense and truestrike on your flying tentacled minions while your opponents gag their way through a widened stinking cloud. :smallbiggrin:

Ormagoden
2010-03-24, 11:42 AM
Solid summoner build.

However, correct me if I'm wrong but, doesn't alienist limit the creatures you can summon?

Optimystik
2010-03-24, 12:01 PM
Solid summoner build.

However, correct me if I'm wrong but, doesn't alienist limit the creatures you can summon?

Yes - it removes all outsiders, elementals and fey from your SM list (huge nerf) and turns anything left (i.e. anything that could be fiendish, or celestial - usually animals/magical beasts) into pseudonaturals instead.

9mm
2010-03-24, 01:30 PM
Fimblewinter BAD!

Seriously don't use it, look at the duration, it lasts MONTHS. unless your plaining to just have her DESTROY anything in 15 miles(minimum) of her when she casts it.

Fitz10019
2010-03-24, 02:09 PM
You may want to start thinking of what to do with your summoned monsters.

Not as funky as Runestar's tactic, but here's mine: imbue Mephits with Eagle's Splendor to raise the DC of their Glitterdust SLA.

Last Laugh
2010-03-24, 02:17 PM
You might wanna take Malconvoker instead of Alienist of course you can't be evil..
How does sanity impact alignment?

EDIT: I could also understand refluffing Malconvoker to work with evil alignments

Malconvoker is from Complete Scoundrel.

Private-Prinny
2010-03-24, 02:39 PM
You might wanna take Malconvoker instead of Alienist of course you can't be evil..
How does sanity impact alignment?

EDIT: I could also understand refluffing Malconvoker to work with evil alignments

Malconvoker is from Complete Scoundrel.

Would the refluffed Evil Malconvoker use intimidate to get celestial creatures to serve them? Because that could be interesting, possibly even creating a dilemma for a party Paladin.

Gnorman
2010-03-24, 06:18 PM
If you do end up going with Malconvoker (honestly, I don't know much about your BBEG so I can't recommend it just yet), I'd definitely concentrate on demons.

Like, at first, her LN outlook makes her think that she can control the demons, etc, etc, but once she snaps she becomes perfectly aligned with their thinking. There are plenty of evil Far Realm summons, too, that you could dabble in.

Check out the Mavawhan from Dragon #345 - they're RAI-summonable at the SM VIII level and get Wall of Ice, Fog Cloud, Cone of Cold, and Polar Ray as SLAs. Ice Demons from the Dragon Compendium might work as low-level aerial harriers. Aspects of Levistus (FC II Web Enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070216a)) or Gelugons might suffice for an ice theme, if devils are more your style.

Dragon magazines #358 and #348 have some... interesting... alien entities you can summon - most are pretty crappy power-wise, but likely in tune with your flavor.

Seriously, this is sounding more and more like a Father Llymic game, though. Far Realm entities and extreme cold? Boosh.

licidy
2010-03-25, 10:19 AM
You would be better spent going into Thaumaturgist (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/thaumaturgist.htm) by grabbing Arcane Disciple (Summoning). It does leave you neutral on feats, but having another contingency of sorts may help.

I like it. That might be one to go into later.


Yes - it removes all outsiders, elementals and fey from your SM list (huge nerf) and turns anything left (i.e. anything that could be fiendish, or celestial - usually animals/magical beasts) into pseudonaturals instead.

Hmmm... does put a kink in several strategies. But, as someone said earlier, summons are at a lot lower CR than appropriately challenging and the ability to True Strike helps summons become a combat threat once again.


Fimblewinter BAD! Seriously don't use it, look at the duration, it lasts MONTHS. unless your plaining to just have her DESTROY anything in 15 miles(minimum) of her when she casts it.

She is destroying everything in a radius ^.^ The party and everyone is trapped on an island community for this arch of the campaign. Recently she caught each of the players in a Sepia Snake Sigil, locking them up for weeks while she and the big-bad set up a fortress stronghold and enslaved the rest of the island. :-)


If you do end up going with Malconvoker (honestly, I don't know much about your BBEG so I can't recommend it just yet), I'd definitely concentrate on demons.

Like, at first, her LN outlook makes her think that she can control the demons, etc, etc, but once she snaps she becomes perfectly aligned with their thinking. There are plenty of evil Far Realm summons, too, that you could dabble in.

Check out the Mavawhan from Dragon #345 - they're RAI-summonable at the SM VIII level and get Wall of Ice, Fog Cloud, Cone of Cold, and Polar Ray as SLAs. Ice Demons from the Dragon Compendium might work as low-level aerial harriers. Aspects of Levistus (FC II Web Enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070216a)) or Gelugons might suffice for an ice theme, if devils are more your style.

Dragon magazines #358 and #348 have some... interesting... alien entities you can summon - most are pretty crappy power-wise, but likely in tune with your flavor.

Seriously, this is sounding more and more like a Father Llymic game, though. Far Realm entities and extreme cold? Boosh.

Going CN with Malconvoker might be nice too. Hmmm...

So right now I'm looking at Human Conj 3/Master Specialist 10/Archmage 2 (that's been already established in-game) but then finishing with a level dip in Alienist (i just like the alien feel too much to give it up), then Malconvoker before Thaumatugist.

The player's started at the beginning of the semester at lv 6, and have provided excellent feedback and enthusiasm for the story, asking me to schedule second meetings in some weeks :smallbiggrin: I'm fairly certain that the campaign will extend into the summer, and hopefully up into epic (since current optimization looks to be at that height).

Oh, and Gnorman: who's Father Llymic?

Last Laugh
2010-03-25, 10:45 AM
If you do use malconvoker the 5th level is the best breakpoint (Whenever you cast a summon spell you get one bonus monster)

Fitz10019
2010-03-25, 02:39 PM
I like it. [Thaumaturgist] might be one to go into later.

Thaum is better sooner, really. It gives you Augment Summons at level 2. And the Extend Summons ability is more meanful at early levels.

My group has a houserule that states: if a class feature gives you a feat that you already have, that class feature becomes an open feat. With that I can see delaying your Thaum entry.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-03-25, 03:15 PM
So right now I'm looking at Human Conj 3/Master Specialist 10/Archmage 2 (that's been already established in-game) but then finishing with a level dip in Alienist (i just like the alien feel too much to give it up), then Malconvoker before Thaumatugist.

The problem with using Malconvoker with Alienist, is that one requires the use of evil (or, assuming house rules, good) creatures to function with the other entirely removing said creatures.

Keld Denar
2010-03-25, 04:03 PM
If you are gonna do the Dire Weasel trick, make sure you Empower it. The only thing better than 1d4+1 Dire Weasels is (1d4+1) x1.5 Dire Weasels, and with Major Esoterica, thats (2d4+2) x1.5 Weasels. Thats a more Weasels than your body has room for! SNAKE EYES!!!!!!

Also, you can use the Imbued Summoning + Heroics trick to give them all Swarmfighting, so they can all attached to the same poor schmuck...

Optimystik
2010-03-25, 04:07 PM
Hmmm... does put a kink in several strategies. But, as someone said earlier, summons are at a lot lower CR than appropriately challenging and the ability to True Strike helps summons become a combat threat once again.

I still don't think it's worth it. For starters, your pseudonatural summons can only True Strike 1/day. If they're fighting something that they need TS to connect with, chances are they'll need to land a hit more than once.

Second, the true strength of summons is not combat; it's their SLAs. A Bralani (SM VI) can toss up wind walls at will and blur your entire party. A Bone Devil (SM VII) can partition an entire battlefield with walls of ice, while a Babau can dispel magic at will. Even the lowly SM III has small earth elementals, that can glide through dungeon walls and scout for the party.

Alienists lose all of that, for some mild Lovecraftian flavor and a subpar template.

Fitz10019
2010-03-25, 04:12 PM
But with Heroics, the subject of the spell chooses the feat. And weasels always choose Deceitful because they're jerks like that, in addition to being lousy optimizers.

Keld Denar
2010-03-25, 04:28 PM
Ah, but they CAN'T choose Deceitful, since its not a Fighter Bonus Feat. Swarmfighting fits in perfectly with their natural instincts too.

licidy
2010-03-25, 06:00 PM
Thaum is better sooner, really. It gives you Augment Summons at level 2. And the Extend Summons ability is more meanful at early levels.

My group has a houserule that states: if a class feature gives you a feat that you already have, that class feature becomes an open feat. With that I can see delaying your Thaum entry.

I follow the same house rule, plus the variant that gives Augment Summoning over Scribe Scroll is very nice.


The problem with using Malconvoker with Alienist, is that one requires the use of evil (or, assuming house rules, good) creatures to function with the other entirely removing said creatures.

Huh... I guess so... I mean, Pseudonatural replaces Celestial/Fiendish but at the same time, the alignment notations on the summon monster tables don't exactly follow Celestial/Fiendish templates to the letter either, otherwise there would be no C/F lawful or chaotic summons right? Would that not mean that pseudonatural summons still retain the alignment notated on the summon monster list?

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-03-25, 06:05 PM
Huh... I guess so... I mean, Pseudonatural replaces Celestial/Fiendish but at the same time, the alignment notations on the summon monster tables don't exactly follow Celestial/Fiendish templates to the letter either, otherwise there would be no C/F lawful or chaotic summons right? Would that not mean that pseudonatural summons still retain the alignment notated on the summon monster list?

I don't have the template in front of me, but I thought that it did not change the normal base creature's intelligence. If that is the case, than all of your summons turn to NN, because they lack the ability to have a more complex alignment. The also want to say that one of the Planar books, either Manual of or Handbook had alternate templates covered the L/C axis.

At the very least, your summoner would be loosing a lot of versatility as none of the non-templated creatures are valid anymore with Pseudonatural.

licidy
2010-03-26, 03:50 AM
I still don't think it's worth it. For starters, your pseudonatural summons can only True Strike 1/day. If they're fighting something that they need TS to connect with, chances are they'll need to land a hit more than once.

Second, the true strength of summons is not combat; it's their SLAs. A Bralani (SM VI) can toss up wind walls at will and blur your entire party. A Bone Devil (SM VII) can partition an entire battlefield with walls of ice, while a Babau can dispel magic at will. Even the lowly SM III has small earth elementals, that can glide through dungeon walls and scout for the party.

Alienists lose all of that, for some mild Lovecraftian flavor and a subpar template.

Okay, you make a good point. I'm still debating it but your argument is solid. As this is a baddie though, not a PC, the party buffs and SLA versatility doesn't have as great of an impact.


Ah, but they CAN'T choose Deceitful, since its not a Fighter Bonus Feat. Swarmfighting fits in perfectly with their natural instincts too.

Would be a nice tactic but Swarmfighting is not a fighter feat either. And correct me if I am wrong, but there really isn't a limit to the number of grappler's on a single creature is there?


I don't have the template in front of me, but I thought that it did not change the normal base creature's intelligence. If that is the case, than all of your summons turn to NN, because they lack the ability to have a more complex alignment. The also want to say that one of the Planar books, either Manual of or Handbook had alternate templates covered the L/C axis.

At the very least, your summoner would be loosing a lot of versatility as none of the non-templated creatures are valid anymore with Pseudonatural.

Int is raised to 3 minimum with the template.

Togo
2010-03-26, 08:21 AM
I believe all psuedonatural creatures are neutral. The entire point of the Far Realms is that it's beyond the whole good-evil thing.

Fitz10019
2010-03-26, 08:51 AM
Ah, but they CAN'T choose Deceitful, since its not a Fighter Bonus Feat. Swarmfighting fits in perfectly with their natural instincts too.

I don't think weasels are pack hunters, but I can't cite anything to back up that statement. More to the rules, Swarmfighting isn't a Fighter Bonus Feat either.

Optimystik
2010-03-26, 08:59 AM
I believe all psuedonatural creatures are neutral. The entire point of the Far Realms is that it's beyond the whole good-evil thing.

The alignment matches the base creature:


A pseudonatural creature uses all the base creature’s statistics and abilities except as noted here.

Usually you're right, and this would be neutral (since most of your PN summons will be animals.) But there are exceptions, especially if you use variant SM lists.

licidy
2010-03-26, 12:25 PM
The alignment matches the base creature:



Usually you're right, and this would be neutral (since most of your PN summons will be animals.) But there are exceptions, especially if you use variant SM lists.


And my whole question here is, isn't the "base creature" technically the celestial/fiendish form with the template then removed and a new one added? I only really ask b/c some Fiendish creatures are CE and LE despite the Fiendish template not taking them one way or the other. And the Alienist ability directly alters the summon list and only the creatures indirectly. I would understand the argument for neutrality if the template was being directly applied to a creature but it is instead going through the filter of the Alienist PrC.

PsiX
2010-03-26, 12:35 PM
You would be better spent going into Thaumaturgist (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/thaumaturgist.htm) by grabbing Arcane Disciple (Summoning).

I had eyes on doing this combo on a summoner of my own, but sadly I noticed too late that Arcane Disciple makes you use Wisdom to cast the spells you get from the domain, and didn't have the 14 I'd need to meet the 'able to cast Lesser Planar Ally' requirement for Thaumaturgist.

The sorrow!

Optimystik
2010-03-26, 01:22 PM
And my whole question here is, isn't the "base creature" technically the celestial/fiendish form with the template then removed and a new one added? I only really ask b/c some Fiendish creatures are CE and LE despite the Fiendish template not taking them one way or the other. And the Alienist ability directly alters the summon list and only the creatures indirectly. I would understand the argument for neutrality if the template was being directly applied to a creature but it is instead going through the filter of the Alienist PrC.

Somewhat. Alienist basically takes Fiendish/Celestial creatures, peels off those templates and applies Pseudonatural instead.

But for your examples above, it is the Fiendish template applying that evil alignment, not the base creature. A Fiendish Giant Spider is evil because it is Fiendish, not because it's a spider. The base creature is neutral. That's generally the case with the critters you would apply Fiendish/Celestial to - most of them are animals, and thus unaligned/neutral.

But there are exceptions, such as on the Variant Summoning Lists; (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/summonMonsterVariants.htm) a Fiendish Gnoll (SM II) is Evil even before the template is applied.


I would avoid Alienist, as it really doesn't offer much to the table and ends up partially harming the caster. You would be better spent going into Thaumaturgist (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/thaumaturgist.htm) by grabbing Arcane Disciple (Summoning). It does leave you neutral on feats, but having another contingency of sorts may help.

I would go the other way around - be an Archivist, or a Cleric with Divine Magician, and go into Thaumaturgist normally while grabbing all the good summoning spells clerics don't usually get.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-26, 01:26 PM
I have a better Summoner build, which does have some cool playability:

Alignment: CG
Race: Gray Elf (For the INT bonus) or Tiefling (same+OUTSIDER)
Class: Focused Conjurer 5/Malconvoker 10/Focused Specialist 4/Archmage 1

Summon forth Balors to "fight the good fight"

Private-Prinny
2010-03-26, 04:18 PM
I have a better Summoner build, which does have some cool playability:

Alignment: CG
Race: Gray Elf (For the INT bonus) or Tiefling (same+OUTSIDER)
Class: Focused Conjurer 5/Malconvoker 10/Focused Specialist 4/Archmage 1

Summon forth Balors to "fight the good fight"

Wait, what? Maybe 2 levels in Archmage is what you meant.

FlamingKobold
2010-03-26, 04:51 PM
I have a better Summoner build, which does have some cool playability:

Alignment: CG
Race: Gray Elf (For the INT bonus) or Tiefling (same+OUTSIDER)
Class: Focused Conjurer 5/Malconvoker 10/Focused Specialist 4/Archmage 1

Summon forth Balors to "fight the good fight"

This is completely irrelevant to the thread. The current build is established in game, there are plans to make them go insane and, apparently, CE. The alignment doesn't work either. Please read for what the OP wants before posting. Also, Malconvoker 10?

On topic: Why does going insane necessitate evil?

Also, I think that alienist is really detrimental to almost any summoning build for a few reasons, some of which have been ponited out.

1) It takes away the best utility creatures (outsiders, mainly)
2) True strike 1/day sounds nice on paper, yes. but in game it's basically uselss, trust me. They'll only be able to hit once, maybe, if they need a true strike at all. Better to just stick with a summoner and go for utility.
3) The pseudonatural template is really, really bad. Unless your DM okays the epic one, of coursae :smalltongue:

jiriku
2010-03-26, 05:10 PM
Posh.

True strike on a pseudonatural summons is GREAT. An earlier poster was correct that the primary purpose of most upper-level summons is to hinder and disrupt. Summon creatures with improved grab into melee range with all the caster and skirmisher PCs, and true strike allows them to guarantee a hit. With disproportionately high grapple bonuses, they'll surely be pinning/constricting/swallowing whole before you can say HOLY SUMMONED TYRANNOSAURUS, BATMAN!

OP, check out the ring of mighty summons, I think it's in complete mage. Thrice per day, all creatures summoned by a summon spell get maximum hit points, at the cost of halving the duration of the summon (oh noes! thaumaturgist gives you extend for free!). Also, look into the feat metamagic school focus, to offset some of that metamagic on three summons per day. Sudden maximize is also worth your time, as once per day you can guarantee three creatures when down-leveling your list by one, instead of gambling on 1d3.

At higher levels, look to get time stop on your list, possibly through a domain. Then you can sudden maximize your time stop and cast five summoning spells for the price of one.

Optimystik
2010-03-26, 08:21 PM
Posh.

True strike on a pseudonatural summons is GREAT. An earlier poster was correct that the primary purpose of most upper-level summons is to hinder and disrupt. Summon creatures with improved grab into melee range with all the caster and skirmisher PCs, and true strike allows them to guarantee a hit. With disproportionately high grapple bonuses, they'll surely be pinning/constricting/swallowing whole before you can say HOLY SUMMONED TYRANNOSAURUS, BATMAN!

It can come in handy I agree, but a) they can only use it once, b) their DR and resistances suck (acid and electricity resistance? DR/magic?) and c) you give up pretty much every summon with an SLA to get it. Is True Strike nice? Of course. Is it worth all the drawbacks? I say no.


At higher levels, look to get time stop on your list, possibly through a domain. Then you can sudden maximize your time stop and cast five summoning spells for the price of one.

A Malconvoker can get 10 for the price of one (Free Twin Spell) without gutting his SM list.

licidy
2010-03-27, 11:09 AM
This is completely irrelevant to the thread. The current build is established in game, there are plans to make them go insane and, apparently, CE. The alignment doesn't work either. Please read for what the OP wants before posting. Also, Malconvoker 10?

On topic: Why does going insane necessitate evil?

Also, I think that alienist is really detrimental to almost any summoning build for a few reasons, some of which have been ponited out.

1) It takes away the best utility creatures (outsiders, mainly)
2) True strike 1/day sounds nice on paper, yes. but in game it's basically uselss, trust me. They'll only be able to hit once, maybe, if they need a true strike at all. Better to just stick with a summoner and go for utility.
3) The pseudonatural template is really, really bad. Unless your DM okays the epic one, of coursae :smalltongue:

Thanks FlamingKobold :smallcool:
I'm leaning more towards CN now instead of Evil...
And *drum roll* I've decided to drop Alienist :smalleek: For the flavor of the weird and alien, Yugoloths tend to look the part fairly well while still allowing outsiders and SLAs. I feel that I'll be happy with the choice :smallsmile:


Posh.

OP, check out the ring of mighty summons,


Being in a cold environment and Fimbulwinter combined with Icy Calling already gives my creatures max HP without cutting the duration in half.