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Duskranger
2010-03-24, 06:08 AM
Dear GitP-ers,

I was scrolling through my savage species book and found a race I did really enjoy, off course I'm talking about Ghaele. I only asked myself why it casted it's cleric spells on with casterlevel of max 14. While it only has 10 HD.
I already argued with my DM and he said maybe the smart people of GitP can help.

So people, I would also like to hear about the experiences any of you had with playing a Ghaele if any. This is about a low lvl campaign (only lvl 1 atm). So lvl 20 is far away but even so. I thank you all for your reactions.

And in case of a vow of poverty, would a lvl 20 Ghaele count as an lvl 20 character or as a lvl 10 character (because of the 10 HD).

Friendly Greetings,

Duskranger

Geiger Counter
2010-03-24, 06:11 AM
For further advancement I suggest combining the prestige paladin with the paladin of freedom both of which are in unearthed arcana.

Duskranger
2010-03-24, 06:14 AM
For further advancement I suggest combining the prestige paladin with the paladin of freedom both of which are in unearthed arcana.

Is it strange that I don't really get your suggestion?

Starbuck_II
2010-03-24, 06:31 AM
Dear GitP-ers,

I was scrolling through my savage species book and found a race I did really enjoy, off course I'm talking about Ghaele. I only asked myself why it casted it's cleric spells on with casterlevel of max 14. While it only has 10 HD.
I already argued with my DM and he said maybe the smart people of GitP can help.

So people, I would also like to hear about the experiences any of you had with playing a Ghaele if any. This is about a low lvl campaign (only lvl 1 atm). So lvl 20 is far away but even so. I thank you all for your reactions.

Friendly Greetings,

Duskranger

Issue is you have to finish Monster levels before taking other class ones in the Savage Species classes.
So you can't be a Ghaele 1/Cleric 2, you have to finish Ghaele first.

You are playing a Cleric with extra goodies but no turn undead. You are almost like a mystic Theurge as you get arcane spells (spell-likes).
You have to find a way to increase caster level by 3 to cast 9th level spells, but don't worry there are ways by level 17.
I'm not sure why they don't let the caster naturally rise higher than 14.

Bead of Karma adds +4 caster for 10 minutes.

By 7th lv, you have the ability to kill any evil (or neutral) creature that fails its will save: (it says if they have less or equal than they die or succeed on save and panicked like fear spell for 2d10 rd).

DR should be changed from DR 10/+2 to DR 5/evil. Since that is DR now for celestials.

Geiger Counter
2010-03-24, 06:33 AM
Is it strange that I don't really get your suggestion?

I don't know what there's not to get, advancing monsters with spellcasting using monster levels usually does not increase their spellcasting. The prestige paladin can do this with a few nifty bonus features but it is designed for LG character, just modify it for CG characters.

Duskranger
2010-03-24, 07:18 AM
Issue is you have to finish Monster levels before taking other class ones in the Savage Species classes.
So you can't be a Ghaele 1/Cleric 2, you have to finish Ghaele first.

You are playing a Cleric with extra goodies but no turn undead. You are almost like a mystic Theurge as you get arcane spells (spell-likes).
You have to find a way to increase caster level by 3 to cast 9th level spells, but don't worry there are ways by level 17.
I'm not sure why they don't let the caster naturally rise higher than 14.

Bead of Karma adds +4 caster for 10 minutes.

By 7th lv, you have the ability to kill any evil (or neutral) creature that fails its will save: (it says if they have less or equal than they die or succeed on save and panicked like fear spell for 2d10 rd).

DR should be changed from DR 10/+2 to DR 5/evil. Since that is DR now for celestials.

I know, and I think it's worth it (for me at least). It's not beacause of the power, but especially the taste, if I write a nice history and stuff. It's like they say not for optimizing, but for fun playing.

And especially thanks for the suggestions and the DR change.

Duskranger
2010-03-24, 07:22 AM
I don't know what there's not to get, advancing monsters with spellcasting using monster levels usually does not increase their spellcasting. The prestige paladin can do this with a few nifty bonus features but it is designed for LG character, just modify it for CG characters.

The question was why a lvl 20 Ghaele with 10 HD casts like 14th lvl cleric where is that based on. I would understand why it would cast like a 10th lvl cleric, but 14 comes right out of nowhere. For the paladin, it would prolly be a fun thing, but if I play a Ghaele it's more for fun and taste than for power and destruction. I mean I enjoy playing not entirely optimised classes and things.

Runestar
2010-03-24, 07:27 AM
Back before wands of CLW became standard issue and spell compendium printed mass aid, my ghaele PC was the quintessential support character. At 8th lv, he got CLW and aid at will. This meant that my party would always enter any fight with aid active (assuming enough prep time) and so long as they survive with at least 1 hp, they may as well not be injured at all, thanks to CLW at-will. Backup clerical casting for whatever problems come your way (and for the 1st 14 lvs, you are on par with a normal cleric). For the 1st 5 lvs, you are actually stronger than a cleric PC (because you get outsider HD in addition to full spellcasting).

His high str made him a fairly decent tripper (since tripping ignores bab). I had him take expertise, improved trip and disarm and wield a ranseur. Which was just as well, because his low HD made him ill suited as a tank despite his high AC, but he was still fairly useful as backup melee. Perma-magic circle means you and your party can't be charmed or dominated. :smallbiggrin:

Thanks to his glut of SLAs usable at-will, we had quite a lot of utility on our hands. His globe form was excellent for defense, since a lot of monster cannot hurt incorporeal foes, and his ray attack still did decent damage (we ruled it benefited from haste). His other abilities (misc resistances/immunities, high NA, good stats, dr, sr) just made the deal sweeter.

It is still fun to play (because you have so many different abilities to tinker with), but I think it may not be as effective as before, simply because some of its more iconic abilities are overshadowed by spells/gear which do the same thing just as well, if not better. :smallconfused:

So my advice is if you don't expect your campaign to last past lv10, go for ghaele.

It also made my believe that no amount of LA can properly justify the right mix of at-will SLAs.

Duskranger
2010-03-24, 07:32 AM
But why is it so that it's abilities to cast as a cleric won't go higher than lvl 14?

Runestar
2010-03-24, 07:38 AM
But why is it so that it's abilities to cast as a cleric won't go higher than lvl 14?

Because there is no link between a creature's racial HD and its innate spellcasting capabilities.

The designers gave it cleric14 spellcasting because they deemed it appropriate vs a group of lv13 PCs, and not so much because of its stats.

If you want to improve its clerical spellcasting, you will need to add class lvs instead. Merely advancing its HD should not work. You could rule otherwise, but then, you may want to houserule that each outsider HD now improves its cr by 1, rather than the current 2-for-1 rate (which I assume does not factor in spellcasting advancement). Cleric34 casting at cr23 would just be plain silly. :smalleek:

Duskranger
2010-03-24, 07:51 AM
Oke, and how about the Vow of Poverty, would it be counted as a lvl 10 character or as a lvl 20.

Runestar
2010-03-24, 08:02 AM
Oke, and how about the Vow of Poverty, would it be counted as a lvl 10 character or as a lvl 20.

Character lv is technically HD, but because VOP is essentially an alternate source of magic gear, and since your gear is determine by your wealth (which is in turn determined by your ECL), I would rule that VOP is based off ECL.:smallsmile:

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-03-24, 08:20 AM
VoP is based off HD, so any levels of the monster class which don't grant HD (those which show a '-' for skill points) won't advance your VoP benefits. At the 20th level of the Ghaele monster class, you'll only have 10 HD for purposes of the VoP benefits.

Instead just play a Cleric or Archivist, or maybe a Wizard with Arcane Disciple, and take Thaumaturgist (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/thaumaturgist.htm) to get a Ghaele planar cohort when you're level 12. That would be one out of the Monster Manual, so it would have all ten HD, its full spellcasting, spell-like abilities, and other abilities. You'd basically just get to skip the monster class and get one as your cohort when you're level 12.

Runestar
2010-03-24, 08:24 AM
A ghaele is ECL20 (as per SS and BOED). No way your cleric is snagging one as a cohort at 12th lv. He would be an epic cohort at least, available only via epic leadership :smallwink:

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-03-24, 08:49 AM
A ghaele is ECL20 (as per SS and BOED). No way your cleric is snagging one as a cohort at 12th lv. He would be an epic cohort at least, available only via epic leadership :smallwink:

The 3.5 Monster Manual and its "LA: ó" entry for Ghaele overrule Savage Species. The list in BoED is only for the Leadership feat, it does not give an updated version of the Ghaele, and it does not assign it a level adjustment, it does not even specify that number as an ECL. Planar Cohort specifies that it must be obtained via one of the Planar Ally spells, that it have no more HD than the character, and that its ECL be no higher than the thaumaturgistís character level -2. A Ghaele has no listed LA, so its ECL is equal to its HD unless you're gaining one as a cohort via Leadership, in which case you use the 'Level Equivalent' value given in BoED. RAW a Thaumaturgist can get a Ghaele as his Planar Cohort at character level 12.

Runestar
2010-03-24, 09:08 AM
LA of "-" does not mean LA of 0, any more than a balor is ECL20 because it has no LA listed. :smallwink:

There is no way a creature with cleric14 spellcasting should be had at only lv12. :smallannoyed:

Akal Saris
2010-03-24, 11:38 AM
The BoED lists Ghaeles as ECL 20 for example special cohorts (Pg. 25). So you'd need to be level 22 or so to have one as your pokemon, even with thaumaturgist.

I agree that the HD not being linked to the spell-casting or the ECL is very weird, but it's just how some monsters are. Ghaeles and planetars are simply the weirdest ones (planetars have cleric 17 casting and 14 HD).

Some stuff from my guide-in-progress on savage species races:

Ghaele:
Type: Outsider (d8 HD, 8 skills/level, some immunities, full BAB, all good saves)
General roles: Scout, utility, divine caster
First level loss: 6th
Point of diminishing returns: 9th
Some RP ideas: You've been sent to the Prime Material plane to form a new order of paladins for your deity, and the other PCs are your first "recruits" whether they know it or not.
Notes:
Casts spells as a cleric of its HD, so up to 5th it's basically a cleric with full BAB, 8 skills/level, and all good saves. Also 50ft movement speed. And spell resistance. And lots of stat bumps. Also gets a BIG list of spell-like abilities at 2nd and can use them 3/day at 5th (and at will at 8th - meaning infinite cure light wounds). Loses a HD at 6th, but also gains some awesome new spell-likes, including chain lightning and wall of force. 7th gains a very mobile alternate form, another HD, and some other nice stuff, while 8th gets infinite uses of minor spell-like abilities such as cure light wounds and aid.

Duskranger
2010-03-24, 01:56 PM
The BoED lists Ghaeles as ECL 20 for example special cohorts (Pg. 25). So you'd need to be level 22 or so to have one as your pokemon, even with thaumaturgist.

I agree that the HD not being linked to the spell-casting or the ECL is very weird, but it's just how some monsters are. Ghaeles and planetars are simply the weirdest ones (planetars have cleric 17 casting and 14 HD).

Some stuff from my guide-in-progress on savage species races:

Ghaele:
Type: Outsider (d8 HD, 8 skills/level, some immunities, full BAB, all good saves)
General roles: Scout, utility, divine caster
First level loss: 6th
Point of diminishing returns: 9th
Some RP ideas: You've been sent to the Prime Material plane to form a new order of paladins for your deity, and the other PCs are your first "recruits" whether they know it or not.
Notes:
Casts spells as a cleric of its HD, so up to 5th it's basically a cleric with full BAB, 8 skills/level, and all good saves. Also 50ft movement speed. And spell resistance. And lots of stat bumps. Also gets a BIG list of spell-like abilities at 2nd and can use them 3/day at 5th (and at will at 8th - meaning infinite cure light wounds). Loses a HD at 6th, but also gains some awesome new spell-likes, including chain lightning and wall of force. 7th gains a very mobile alternate form, another HD, and some other nice stuff, while 8th gets infinite uses of minor spell-like abilities such as cure light wounds and aid.

Thanks for the paladin idea. I like it. Further I already discussed the clericcasterlvl distirbution with my DM, but this char goes for a little while in the fridge. I have a Dragon Shaman that is already in the party and has played only 1 session, so first kick it up with him. And if he dies, or if playing with him is not really fun I will see.

Akal Saris
2010-03-25, 01:23 AM
Glad I could help :)

I also know a session summary for a Planescape campaign where somebody plays a Ghaele from 1-5, here's the link (http://mxyzplk.wordpress.com/session-summaries/city-of-sigil-session-summaries/). Very entertaining!