(3.5) World's Simplest Monk Fix (PEACH)

[DracoDei]

"Flurry of Misses" -> BAB to Full

M.A.D. -> Select 4 or more abilities at 1st level. At each level increase whichever of these is LOWEST by 1 point. Character's choice if this is a tie.*

S.R. a pain -> Can be dropped against individual effects, just like voluntarily failing a save.

Capstone weakens? -> Count as your original type, OR outsider, whichever is more beneficial to you at any given moment.

Abilities contradict eachother for tactics -> That is called "versatility"... it is a feature, not a bug.

EDIT: Speed Bonuses become untyped.


*"Perfection of Mind, Body, and Spirit" makes this thematically appropriate.


So... I haven't seen anything this simple before, what do people think? Not going to make it on the par with a wizard, but I think this might give the Unarmed Sword-sage a run for its money... should the stat-bumps be more often?

[Hyooz]

Won't even touch an unarmed swordsage.

Increasing ability scores doesn't fix MAD, especially as written. I still need 4 abilities, and this change might give it a +2 average to stats, and that's if you set them all the same at the beginning.

Saying you did it on purpose doesn't mean you still don't have abilities that work against each other. It just means you purposefully designed a class poorly.

Capstone doesn't come into play that often to be a huge deal.

I mean, they're not bad homerules, but that's hardly a monk 'fix.'

[DracoDei]

The average increase is absolutely invariant as long as you pick 4 abilities. If other people agree, I will edit it to 1 ability point per level.

I disagree that having mutually exclusive (on a round by round basis) options is poor design idea necessarily.

[Hyooz]

Well, at 32 PB, let's say my ability scores are 16, 16, 14, 14, 8, 8 at first level. I choose the top four, obviously, to increase.

2nd level this is 16, 16, 15, 14
4th level: 16, 16, 15, 15
6th level: 16, 16, 16, 15
8th level: 16, 16, 16, 16
10th level: 17, 16, 16, 16
12th level: 17, 17, 16, 16
14th level: 17, 17, 17, 16
16th level: 17, 17, 17, 17
18th level: 18, 17, 17, 17,
20th level: 18, 18, 17, 17

This is just the points from your houserule. So, over 20 levels, you've gotten a +1 modifier to all your key stats. Woo? I still have to rely on 4 different ability scores as a monk. This doesn't fix the MAD at all. It just emphasizes it. You get more than twice as many stat-ups as any other character, and it still falls flat.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

"Flurry of Misses" -> BAB to Full

This helps, but I don't have the statistics to say by how much.


M.A.D. -> Select 4 or more abilities at 2nd level. At each even numbered level increase whichever of these is LOWEST by 1 point. Character's choice if this is a tie.*

So, now monks get a boost to basically every non-Int, non-Cha stat, which helps with point-buy concerns. May still prove difficult in giving monks either adequate offense or defense, depending on how the stats were chosen.


S.R. a pain -> Can be dropped against individual effects, just like voluntarily failing a save.

'K, now monks don't have to worry about not getting buffs. That does help, given someone actually being around the monk to help him.


Capstone weakens? -> Count as your original type, OR outsider, whichever is more beneficial to you at any given moment.

See, now the Outsider type is generally pretty pimp and all around better than Humanoid (suck it). The issue with the capstone is that: a) it comes way too late in the game to be of much use and b) you get Dr/MAGIC with it. As in, everyone since level freaking 3 has been able to by pass it with little to no worries.


Abilities contradict eachother for tactics -> That is called "versatility"... it is a feature, not a bug.

Er, no, not really. This isn't "Class Features: Spells" where you can't use more than one of them a turn without either careful selection or additional feats. This is "These class features imply that they work together to create a quick skirmisher, who runs in, throws down a barrage of fists, and runs away all in one round." They don't do that. Sure, you can run in, whack once, sit there, whack for flurry, then whack retreat, but that's not a skirmish as implied by the abilities. When you sit there, you aren't using your speed. When you're using your speed to not get hit, you're doing piss-poor damage. That is a contradiction if ever.




*"Perfection of Mind, Body, and Spirit" makes this thematically appropriate.

Eh, they do stuff, but whatever. They aren't really much in the way of class abilities other than one of them stops Cloudkill.



So... I haven't seen anything this simple before, what do people think? Not going to make it on the par with a wizard, but I think this might give the Unarmed Sword-sage a run for its money... should the stat-bumps be more often?

Sorry, but I would still rather go with Unarmed Swordsage for my solution. That or Monk 2/Psychic Warrior X with Tashalatora. Or any number of BEAR builds, who just happen to do Kung-Fu was well.

[Lysander]

How about fixing MAD by giving monks the ability to combine their wisdom and dex bonuses on some monk abilities? That way you can have middling scores in both, but still act like its a high stat.

[Mulletmanalive]

Lysander's suggestion sounds like it could work pretty well. I'd also double the defence bonuses for class levels.

Personally, i've never seen MAD as a flaw in the monk, so much as a flaw with every class that runs on a single stat. That said, I agree that the Monk is a bit pants.

We did a playtest with the basic monk with doubled dodge bonuses, 1:1 BAB and a feat progression that went all the way up and found that it acquited itself pretty well, so the changes don't have to be over complex.

[DracoDei]

S.A.D. can be a problem in theory, but the popular opinion seems to be that "Two or Three is best".



Well, for posterity, I made the ability score increases 1 to 1. Probably going to use what I have a house-rule in my games, simply because I enjoy unique mechanics. Might also give the increased AC bonuses suggested*, and maybe a FEW more feats.

*3, 5, 7, 10, 13, 15, 17, 20 (since technically "doubling" would give something too "lumpy").

[Lysander]

What if you allow monks, if they so choose, to exchange certain monk feats for a fighter bonus feat of their choice? For example at 11th level they could choose to keep Diamond Body or take another feat of their choice.

[Realms of Chaos]

Eh, I make a slightly separate set of changes.

1. Although monks supposedly rely on their Wisdom, they don't use it for much else other than their AC, which doesn't even make much sense. I simply let the monk add double his or her Dex bonus to AC and give a +1 bonus per 2 monk levels.
Less MAD and competative unarmored AC.

2. As an additional feature of fast movement, I allow the monk to move up to their speed enhancement (10 feet at 3rd level, 20 feet at 6th, etc.) and make a full attack.
This lets the monk be the skirmisher it was intended to be and lets speed synergize with flurry of blows.

3. Full BAB.

4. Ki Strike adds an enhancement bonus to attack and damage rolls equal to 1/4 of your level.
This is a poor substitute for gaining actual magical weaponry but it helps you not fall behind the bonuses that your team mates get to attack rolls.

[thedarkstone]

Honestly, the simplest monk fix, I think, is just being a human, taking Sacred Vow and Vow of Poverty, and then subsequently taking Vow of Nonviolence and Vow of Peace. Then, after that, maybe take a few feats like Zen Archery. But seriously, does any monk NOT take VoP?

[Siosilvar]

Honestly, the simplest monk fix, I think, is just being a human, taking Sacred Vow and Vow of Poverty, and then subsequently taking Vow of Nonviolence and Vow of Peace. Then, after that, maybe take a few feats like Zen Archery. But seriously, does any monk NOT take VoP?

Ones that need to deal with things that VoP doesn't give you the tools to deal with, mostly flight. VoP makes a monk somewhat more effective at dealing with things they can deal with and takes away magic items that can make up for shortcomings in other areas. If the monk is in a campaign such that it needs fixing, VoP does the exact opposite of what you want.

[Amechra]

That's why you play a Raptorran monk.

There, you've got flying! Aren't you special? Who's the special monk? You are! You are!

(As you can see, I see monks as babies trying to keep up with adults. It is hilarious and heartbreaking at the same time.)

[Razanir]

Single most useful fix– Flurry as a standard action

[ArcturusV]

See, now the Outsider type is generally pretty pimp and all around better than Humanoid (suck it). The issue with the capstone is that: a) it comes way too late in the game to be of much use and b) you get Dr/MAGIC with it. As in, everyone since level freaking 3 has been able to by pass it with little to no worries.

... you know... that got me thinking, horrible thing that, Thinking. What if instead of DR/Magic, the monk had a DR/Mundane? I mean most of his class features (Great saves, Mental Resistances, Immunities) etc, are mostly geared towards supernatural causes. And I've seen and heard theories that the Monks were originally supposed to be "Wizard Killers" rather than frontline warriors. So the Monk would eventually get DR against any sort of magic, Supernatural Ability, natural attacks from Magical Beings/Outsiders/Elementals/Undead/Other Obviously Magical Origin Critters... oddly enough due to Ki Strike, DR versus other monks... But have no real defense against a perfectly mundane kitchen knife slicing his throat.

Just a weird thought that popped in my head. I mean DR/Mundane would fit the Monk skills/concept more than any sort of magic or alignment (Or metallic) based immunity.

But also gives me an odd mental image of a level 20 monk squaring off against a level 20 fighter. Fighter is slashing away with his +5 weapon, doing almost nothing to the monk. Finally has to say "Screw this!" throw his greatsword aside and try to fisticuffs the Monk, or just grab a random tree branch to use as a club, etc.

[Deepbluediver]

The monk is a fairly involved class, with a large number of interesting if somewhat mediocre abilities, and any fix changes greatly depending on what the brewer is aiming for (my own fix runs 12+ pages)

So when some one says they have a "simple" fix for the monk, my reaction is usually about the same if someone told me they fixed a leaking nuclear reactor with duct-tape.

But let's see what you've got.


"Flurry of Misses" -> BAB to Full

M.A.D. -> Select 4 or more abilities at 1st level. At each level increase whichever of these is LOWEST by 1 point. Character's choice if this is a tie.*

S.R. a pain -> Can be dropped against individual effects, just like voluntarily failing a save.

Capstone weakens? -> Count as your original type, OR outsider, whichever is more beneficial to you at any given moment.

Abilities contradict eachother for tactics -> That is called "versatility"... it is a feature, not a bug.

EDIT: Speed Bonuses become untyped.


*"Perfection of Mind, Body, and Spirit" makes this thematically appropriate.


So... I haven't seen anything this simple before, what do people think? Not going to make it on the par with a wizard, but I think this might give the Unarmed Sword-sage a run for its money... should the stat-bumps be more often?

Ok, right off the bat, none of this is new. I read a lot of monk fixes, and I have seen every single suggestion here somewhere else (except maybe making speed untyped). Fixing the monk generally isn't simple because it's not a simple class, and just throwing more numbers at it does not address the majority of problems.


The penalty to attack rolls with FoB goes away as you level up, so it's no worse than a rogue or something equivalent. The bigger issue for most players is that it's a full-round action, meaning that if he wants to make use of it the monk can't use any of this OTHER abilities, such as speed or stunning fist. That's the whole "contradictory abilities" complaint.
Just giving him full BAB won't help him survive long as a frontline combatant with medium HD, no armor, and low Con.
Since his feat selection is carved in stone, you can't even reasonably alternate into something like Spring Attack or ranged combat.

Higher stats to compensate for MAD is a bandaid fix; it doesn't really address the root problem. You can cast one buff on the fighter or barbarian or wizard, but the monk needs 4+, even if his total stats are higher, and his Wealth is split between multiple pieces of gear all doing different things.
Plus, the monk's biggest dissapointments lie not with his stat-scores, but with his lackluster abilities.
Everything comes in either too late or is too restricted in it's uses. Tongue of the Sun and Moon is nice but it's not 17th level nice. Free teleport is cool, but only once per day limits your options severely; etc etc etc.

With the whole "turning into an Outsider" thing, that seems like it was done for fluff without answering a whole healp of questions.
Does the monk's BAB change? (Outsiders have BAB equal to level)
Does the monk gain Darkvision? What about weapon proficencies?
What does this do that a few individual abilities wouldn't?
What is the whole POINT of it? or, What actual BENEFIT does this grant?


The monk has many issues, and you've only touched the very lowest rung of them. So overall I'd say that your fix moves the monk up about 0.3 on the scale. He's still a solid tier 5.

[DracoDei]

So when some one says they have a "simple" fix for the monk, my reaction is usually about the same if someone told me they fixed a leaking nuclear reactor with duct-tape
I concur. I never claimed this was much good at all, only that it was better than nothing, and fairly quick and easy to apply.

It was a spur of the moment thing.

[Grod_The_Giant]

"Flurry of Misses" -> BAB to Full
OK. Should also be reduced to a standard action.


M.A.D. -> Select 4 or more abilities at 1st level. At each level increase whichever of these is LOWEST by 1 point. Character's choice if this is a tie.*
Meh. I'd rather let them use Wisdom in place of strength for everything.


S.R. a pain -> Can be dropped against individual effects, just like voluntarily failing a save.
Standard helpful option that should be applied to all SR.


Capstone weakens? -> Count as your original type, OR outsider, whichever is more beneficial to you at any given moment.
As already mentioned, should be Outsider (Native) so they can be raised, and have DR/Chaos instead of magic.


EDIT: Speed Bonuses become untyped.
Good.

Add in the ability to use 1/day abilities Wis mod / day (or /hour, even) and you're probably at least T4. Still not touching the swordsage, though (which may be one of the best-balanced classes in the game).

[Xechon]

I once had a simple idea that might level the playing ground for monks a bit, without changing anything about the class. Although it does nothing about the problem that all non-wizards are useless, but it brings the versatility of a monk into full view (cause, you know, that's what the class is all about). Add these:
https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTUowT8gI1gC1zv73xlE3L8rk7LaY1Cv vpRMIlg4tPdqizKZq_Jzg

Monk Weapon, 1d6 damage, piercing or slashing, finesse-able, light weapon, trip and disarm, reach as a single standard action, special grapple check (hook them around the neck).

EDIT: forgot, also gives AC bonus for hand guards and can deal weapon damage to enemies that attack unarmed or attempt to grapple a character with this weapon.

They could also benefit from some proficiencies, like polarms, swords, and hook and chain.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSeVwcwIAmRavEFGzfR8tMBL1JWiYEfa 7_0xFtoRc4Von4AcaT2
https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQo-92cpjKvuYqUMXXM429-S6Z6ZEpbEIJDsbhP1qu9TshtVscM9Q
https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTU6ziv4koCqIxnvm1xbwthOR4BP5MlX O3UMT8qM8d_UpEsZ8QmDg

Honestly, the terrible balance of monks can be seen as a good thing, and every fix you can get suffers from not being good enough, or being too good; I believe it to be because of the nature of the underlying system itself.