why are kobolds seen as overpowered? 3.5

[steam_mage]

in the past i have read many people's posts calling kobolds "one of the most overpowered races in 3.5" but i personally just dont get it. imo i think kobolds are very underpowered, ok true a decent ac may help a caster or a low level melee build but the -2 con hurts a caster more than the +3 ac helps especially at mid and higher levels and the -4 strengh and small size instantly cripples any kobold melee build. perhaps there are some feats that only kobolds can take or work especially well with kobolds if so i dont have those books. could someone who knows why kobolds are so powerfull explain it to me?

thanks

[Aron Times]

Pun-Pun.

/thread

[FishAreWet]

Dragonwrought from Races of the Dragon allows them to become True Dragons.

Meaning, no aging penalties, 3 free sorcerer levels, epic feats at level 1...

[Starbuck_II]

in the past i have read many people's posts calling kobolds "one of the most overpowered races in 3.5" but i personally just dont get it. imo i think kobolds are very underpowered, ok true a decent ac may help a caster or a low level melee build but the -2 con hurts a caster more than the +3 ac helps especially at mid and higher levels and the -4 strengh and small size instantly cripples any kobold melee build. perhaps there are some feats that only kobolds can take or work especially well with kobolds if so i dont have those books. could someone who knows why kobolds are so powerfull explain it to me?

thanks

Just like Bards they has been alot of stealth balanciong for them.
Dragon Wrought: means no age penalties only bonuses.
They can fly from another feat.

They get additional Sorceror levels from a ritual.

And if you really want cheese: they can qualify (with right feats) as an epic character for feats- although that requires some explainations.

[Sinfire Titan]

They can fly from another feat.

Well, in all due fairness, so can everyone else.

[Lord Vukodlak]

So the basic answer is, Races of the Dragon gives them very very powerful options.

Oddly enough I've written not the stat block for a Kobold Bard to my a cohort of a character of mine.

Why a Bard? because its a very support only class so it won't distract attention from the PC's of the group.
Why a Kobold? because my character is a lizardfolk and having a little reptilian friend just makes sense.
Of course the campaign is almost completely core only so
"Eeek a Kobold" won't be having any races of dragon options, his name is what most people say in common upon meeting him.

[JaronK]

So the basic answer is, Races of the Dragon gives them very very powerful options.

Pretty much. Also, there's an online suppliment that gives them a few more fun options. But it's basically the Races of the Dragon stuff that makes them strong.

JaronK

[deuxhero]

Dragonwrought from Races of the Dragon allows them to become True Dragons.

Meaning, no aging penalties, 3 free sorcerer levels, epic feats at level 1...


3? Lore drake is 2, where does the 3rd come from?

[jpreem]

So they're like nachos? Good for cheese?

[Volthawk]

3? Lore drake is 2, where does the 3rd come from?

Greater Draconic Rite of Passage (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a)

[Douglas]

3? Lore drake is 2, where does the 3rd come from?
Greater Draconic Rite of Passage (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a)

Edit: Okay, see that? That is a ninja. Absolutely identical to what I posted down to the letter.

[Kobold-Bard]

Tucker's Kobolds (http://www.tuckerskobolds.com/) show the lethality of Kobolds who are played as Kobolds would actually act.

[Asheram]

So the basic answer is, Races of the Dragon gives them very very powerful options.

Oddly enough I've written not the stat block for a Kobold Bard to my a cohort of a character of mine.

Why a Bard? because its a very support only class so it won't distract attention from the PC's of the group.
Why a Kobold? because my character is a lizardfolk and having a little reptilian friend just makes sense.
Of course the campaign is almost completely core only so
"Eeek a Kobold" won't be having any races of dragon options, his name is what most people say in common upon meeting him.

Aah... Old NWN memories... Deekin, our hero...

[Kobold-Bard]

Aah... Old NWN memories... Deekin, our hero...

If I'd known about him when I joined the site I would have picked a different username. Now everyone thinks I'm a copycat/rabid fanboy :smallannoyed:

[Milo v3]

Are you "Kobold-Bard" saying you don't like Deekin?:smallconfused:
Blasphamy! Blasphamy I say! :smallfurious:
How in any way could you not like Deekin? He is my favourite character of all time. :smallmad:

[Sindri]

The key point here is that kobolds are weak on their own, but have access to a few things collected from several obscure sources which, when combined, lead to a very powerful character at very low level. A kobold is underpowered, but a kobold played by a munchkin is an instant game-breaker.

This has lead to a stereotype of all kobolds as munchkins, and therefore overpowered when compared to sane roleplayers.

Edit: "Doom doom doom...
doomity doom doom..."-kobold bard song, according to NWN.

[Tyndmyr]

Dragonwrought from Races of the Dragon allows them to become True Dragons.

Meaning, no aging penalties, 3 free sorcerer levels, epic feats at level 1...

Dragonwrought is awesome. However, epic feats at level 1 require your DM give you flaws. Also, it only lets you qualify for epic feats that lack prereqs. Thats not many of em. And lots of those suck. +1 NA? Eh....kind of a waste of a feat, especially to use that many shenanigans on.

Edit: Oh, greater draconic rite of passage isn't actually a big deal, provided you don't allow loredrake...which is dragons of eberron anyhow. Doesn't have to be made available to players. Just the rite of passage, though, that just puts them on the same spell progression as wizards w/regard to level. No biggie.

Aright, lets break it down.

Pun-Pun: Ridiculous. Fortunately, purely a theoretical option, and one that says absolutely nothing about the balance of the race in general. After all, pun pun is also a paladin. That doesn't make paladins broken.

Kobolds, as found in the monster manual: Terrible. Very substandard race.

Kobolds, with web enhancement goodies: Situationally usable. The stat negatives are still a significant problem, and you're not making melee builds with them, but the ability to squeeze through tiny spaces might be handy and such. Still not great.

Kobolds, with dragonwrought, no web enhancement: Suddenly, great casters, albeit still poor melee options. Keep in mind that using the dragonwrought/age trick, you get the total mods: -4 str, -2 con, +2 dex, +3 int, +3 wis, +3 cha. And you burn a feat. It's a good trade, but losing con is always painful, and while it boosts all mental stats...it does so by odd amounts, and most casters dump at least one mental stat anyhow. It's enough to make it...still useless for most melee builds, but one of the better options for casters. Therefore, it shows up in TO often. Still not as often as humans, though. If there's a race that's broken, it's them. Personally, I enjoy lesser tiefling for caster optimization.

kobolds with dragonwrought and web enhancement: prolly unnecessary. Dragonwrought is sufficiently good that piling on more isn't a good thing, even if it is relatively minor after all is said and done.

[Kylarra]

Don't forget Desert Kobolds (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/environmentalRacialVariants.htm#desertKobolds) which lack the -2 con penalty.

[Tyndmyr]

I'll grant you that shifting the penalty to wisdom is definitely a win for...anyone not a cleric or the like. At that point, you start getting a "all bonuses to good things, all negs to bad things" effect.

*shrug* If someone's min/maxing far beyond others, just chat about it. Kobold can be min-maxed quite a lot if you allow wild source mishmashing, but hey, it's not alone. I've seen a person who actually thought people would have to let him use the hulking hurler online build of ridiculousness.

[RetSpline]

Tucker's Kobolds (http://www.tuckerskobolds.com/) show the lethality of Kobolds who are played as Kobolds would actually act.Okay, I don't really see Tucker's Kobolds as being that big of a deal. I mean, obviously I wasn't there and a lot of specifics are lost in the retelling, but it pretty much just seems like the players' response to tactical, intelligent adversaries was to... run through blindly and panic? In a turn-based game? It didn't seem like there was an iota of planning or strategy, despite some of the players having run the encounter before. It's not like Fireball is the only AoE anyways, and if it is for some reason just throw on some fire resist gear beforehand. Plus, judging by the level of equipment described in the story and the sheer number of them, they were definitely more than "regular" kobolds even before the tactics.

I guess I'd need to run through a similar encounter to really get a feel for it.

[Tyndmyr]

Tuckers Kobolds aren't a kobold thing....they're an exercise in playing mobs like players play their PCs. You can do the same with any intelligent opponents.

And yes, sometimes players do act as through all mobs exist solely to be killed for xp and loot. Unfortunately.

[MeeposFire]

Don't forget Desert Kobolds (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/environmentalRacialVariants.htm#desertKobolds) which lack the -2 con penalty.

Also lack light sensitivity double win.

[LordBlades]

Also lack light sensitivity double win.

which measn they can no loger put out the sun with Iron Heart Surge, that's a pretty big drawback imho :smallbiggrin:

[JaronK]

which measn they can no loger put out the sun with Iron Heart Surge, that's a pretty big drawback imho :smallbiggrin:

When a variant of a race sucks because it can't put out the sun as a standard action, there's something wrong...

JaronK

[FelixG]

which measn they can no loger put out the sun with Iron Heart Surge, that's a pretty big drawback imho :smallbiggrin:

Use the desert book to add in heat, that way they are under an effect because of the sun and they could still put it out :smallcool:

[Loki Eremes]

nothing to do with rules.

I know kobolds are very intelligent and stuff...

maybe its only me, but i always imagine them as the Dodos from Ice Age movie.

This way of thinking supported by "Kobolds eat my baby!" RPG game :smalltongue:

[Zeb The Troll]

Troll Patrol: Putting the thread back into the grave from whence it came.