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Jergmo
2010-03-24, 02:28 PM
So, I was looking through the section for Epic level monsters on the SRD, and I thought to myself...really, who needs these chumps? Many, many monsters have rules for HD advancement that can bring them into respectable ranges for epic levels. This means more work on the part of the DM, but take, say...a Balor, for example.

Your players could go out and you can toss a random Epic monster at them, escalating as they keep gaining levels. Yawn. Nothing special about them. Maybe you can have an Abomination while you're at it. Or...they could venture deep into the Abyss, conquering armies of demons and arriving at the domain of Kazagar, the 60 HD Huge-sized Balor, one of the great demon princes of the Abyss, thereby thwarting his plots of invasion of the Prime Material! It seems to me that the monster that took more effort to create is more rewarding, in the end.

Below is an example of one of the big mamba jamba monsters I recently set up for my own campaign.

http://www.sqpn.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/10/soc05_kraken.jpg
Sækonungur, Dread Kraken
Size/Type: Colossal Magical Beast (Aquatic)
Hit Dice: 60d10+960 (1,265 hp)
Initiative: +8
Speed: Swim 20 ft. (4 squares)
Armor Class: 21 (-8 size, +19 natural), touch 2, flat-footed 21
Base Attack/Grapple: +60/+89
Attack: Tentacle +73 melee (4d8+21/19-20)
Full Attack: 2 tentacles +73 melee (4d8+21/19-20) and 6 arms +73 melee (1d8+10) and bite +73 melee (6d6+10)
Space/Reach: 30 ft./20 ft. (80 ft. with tentacle, 40 ft. with arm)
Special Attacks: Improved grab, constrict 4d8+21 or 1d8+10
Special Qualities: Darkvision 180 ft., ink cloud, jet, low-light vision, spell-like abilities
Saves: Fort +47, Ref +32, Will +33
Abilities: Str 52, Dex 10, Con 40, Int 21, Wis 20, Cha 20
Skills: Concentration +32, Diplomacy +24, Hide +0, Intimidate +66, Knowledge (geography) +37, Knowledge (nature) +36, Listen +70, Search +66, Sense Motive +27, Spot +70, Survival +5 (+7 following tracks), Swim +29, Use Magic Device +36
Feats: Alertness, Blind-Fight, Power Attack, Improved Critical (tentacle), Improved Initiative, Improved Trip, Improved natural attack (tentacle), Multiattack, Improved Toughness, Iron Will, Fling Enemy, Multigrab, Greater Multigrab, Improved Multiattack, Quickened Spell-Like Ability (Control Winds), Rending Constriction, Thunderclap
Epic Feats: Penetrate Damage Reduction (Adamantine), Improved Darkvision(2), Superior Initiative
Environment: Temperate aquatic
Organization: Solitary, unique
Challenge Rating: 25
Treasure: Triple standard
Alignment: Neutral Evil
Advancement: —
Level Adjustment: —

Sækonungur is the undisputed lord of the sea bridging the coasts of Asura and Zauer, said to be the oldest and most powerful Kraken alive. Primitive island-dwellers worship the terrible beast as a God, and even the frost giant lords of Asura fear him, only the bravest of warriors setting out in their longboats to foreign markets with slaves and goods in tow. Long ago, the bronze Wyrm Sjófært challenged Sækonungur to a battle to the death to end his reign, but the mighty kraken dragged him beneath the waves, crushing the life from him. Today, he continues to demand tribute and worship from those who live on the coasts, sending powerful hurricanes to destroy those who refuse.

Combat
An opponent can make sunder attempts against a kraken’s tentacles or arms as if they were weapons. Sækonungur's tentacles have 80 hit points, and his arms have 40 hit points. If a kraken is currently grappling a target with one tentacle or arm, it usually uses another limb to make its attack of opportunity against the sunder attempt. Severing a kraken’s tentacle or arm deals damage to the kraken equal to half the limb’s full normal hit points. A kraken usually withdraws from combat if it loses both tentacles or three of its arms. A kraken regrows severed limbs in 1d10+10 days.

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, Sækonungur must hit with an arm or tentacle attack. He can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If he wins the grapple check, he establishes a hold and can constrict.
Constrict (Ex): Sækonungur deals automatic arm or tentacle damage with a successful grapple check.
Jet (Ex): Sækonungur can jet backward once per round as a full-round action, at a speed of 280 feet. He must move in a straight line, but does not provoke attacks of opportunity while jetting.
Ink Cloud (Ex): Sækonungur can emit a cloud of jet-black ink in an 80-foot spread once per minute as a free action. The cloud provides total concealment, which would normally be used to escape a fight that is going badly. Creatures within the cloud are considered to be in darkness.
Rending Constriction (Ex): If you maintain a hold with more than one appendage on an opponent and are able to constrict, you can make an additional rend attack in the same round. This attack automatically deals double the base damage for a constrict attack, and the damage bonus is 1 1/2 times your Strength bonus. However, making this rend attack automatically releases the held creature on its next action. You must reestablish the hold to constrict again.
Thunderclap (Ex): Full-round action, clap two limbs together and create a cone of sound that starts at your position and continues for 300 feet. Fort save DC 55 to resist, those who fail are deafened for the duration of the encounter. Those who fail their save by 5 or more are also knocked down. Automatically extinguishes unprotected flames. Suppresses blindsight for aquatic creatures.

Spell-Like Abilities
1/day—control weather, dominate animal (DC 18), resist energy; 3/day—quickened control winds. Caster level 19th. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Skills
Sækonungur has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. He can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. He can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-24, 02:33 PM
Hold up:



Hit Dice: 60d10+960 (1,265 hp)


Challenge Rating: 25

Spell-Like Abilities
1/day—control weather, dominate animal (DC 18), resist energy; 3/day—quickened control winds. Caster level 19th. The save DC is Charisma-based.

DC is HD-based, not CL-based. And you seriously expect those pathetic SLAs to be a threat in Epic?


Hate to break it to you, but anything with a decent Fly speed, a bow, and a ****-ton of arrows can take this thing down and never worry about taking damage.

Jergmo
2010-03-24, 02:35 PM
Hold up:

DC is HD-based, not CL-based. And you seriously expect those pathetic SLAs to be a threat in Epic?

Hate to break it to you, but anything with a decent Fly speed, a bow, and a ****-ton of arrows can take this thing down and never worry about taking damage.

The DC for spells is 10 + spell level + your main spellcasting stat modifier. However, when there are tornado-force winds in the area, it's pretty much impossible to fly. You also seem to be forgetting that Sækonungur can just dive.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-24, 02:38 PM
I forgot to update the DC, yes. However, when there are tornado-force winds in the area, it's pretty much impossible to fly. You also seem to be forgetting that Sækonungur can just dive.

And otherwise do nothing. Because a scroll of Greater Dispel Magic ruins his SLAs, and Control Weather sucks as a Combat Spell (and cannot be Quickened due to a 10 minute casting time) because it takes 10 minutes to take effect.

It's kinda hard to call something an Epic Encounter when all it can do is run away really slowly.

Jergmo
2010-03-24, 02:39 PM
And otherwise do nothing. Because a scroll of Greater Dispel Magic ruins his SLAs, and Control Weather sucks as a Combat Spell (and cannot be Quickened due to a 10 minute casting time) because it takes 10 minutes to take effect.

It's kinda hard to call something an Epic Encounter when all it can do is run away really slowly.

Actually, FYI, Control Winds is the quickened spell, not Control Weather. And, if you had checked, you would notice this:

Casting Time: 1 standard action

Hopefully this edit won't be missed, but...really, sure, you can use those resources to undo the spells, and you can make him retreat if you rely on ranged weapons so as not to get close. But you still have a CR 25 Kraken on the loose who won't be happy about insolent little humanoid-folk trying to kill him, and may take it out on coastal settlements.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-24, 02:42 PM
Actually, FYI, Control Winds is the quickened spell, not Control Weather. And, if you had checked, you would notice this:

Casting Time: 1 standard action


And it's still vulnerable to Dispel Magic. Incredibly so if it is intended to be an Epic Monster (seeing as Caster Levels for an ECL 25th Wizard should be somewhere in the mid-30's).


Edit:
Hopefully this edit won't be missed, but...really, sure, you can use those resources to undo the spells, and you can make him retreat if you rely on ranged weapons so as not to get close. But you still have a CR 25 Kraken on the loose who won't be happy about insolent little humanoid-folk trying to kill him, and may take it out on coastal settlements.


BIG DEAL!


An Epic-level PC can make a spell to Rez the entire Material Plane with no GP cost. At will mind you.


Need I remind you that an Epic PC is dealing with Deities by RAW? And can likely kill them outright?

sofawall
2010-03-24, 02:43 PM
and may take it out on coastal settlements.

Very sloooooowwwwwwly.

Kaiyanwang
2010-03-24, 02:45 PM
The DC for spells is 10 + spell level + your main spellcasting stat modifier. However, when there are tornado-force winds in the area, it's pretty much impossible to fly. You also seem to be forgetting that Sækonungur can just dive.

Add some racial bonus or transform them in (Su).

Another point is action economy. An epic challenge must do sevral things in one round (or one, but freaking nasty) or is not so epic.

I like the idea of the big monster. IMHO, if you add some way to increase actions, linked with the flavour (just to say, tentacles can cast or attack, and you bring a list of things you can cast among wind, lightining, and weather related) you can do a nice thing.

Go on!

A question: why 2 times improved darkvision?


@ Sinfire: maye he just not plays at that power level. Nothing wrong. Let's help him to improve the monster..

Jergmo
2010-03-24, 02:46 PM
Very sloooooowwwwwwly.

It can Jet there, or it can simply stir up tornadoes and hurricanes in their general direction, causing devastating weather patterns. Also, what you said about ressurecting everyone who dies is just plain silly.

Jergmo
2010-03-24, 02:49 PM
Add some racial bonus or transform them in (Su).

Another point is action economy. An epic challenge must do sevral things in one round (or one, but freaking nasty) or is not so epic.

I like the idea of the big monster. IMHO, if you add some way to increase actions, linked with the flavour (just to say, tentacles can cast or attack, and you bring a list of things you can cast among wind, lightining, and weather related) you can do a nice thing.

Go on!

A question: why 2 times improved darkvision?

With Multigrab and Greater Multigrab, it can grapple with each appendage with no penalty. It can grapple everyone in the party simultaneously and deal automatic constrict damage. And fling them, just for the fun of it.

And that's so that it can actually see a good distance in underwater battles. Them only having 60 ft. darkvision seems kinda silly. While I'm at it, I would like to remind you that Epic levels are 21 and up. This is something for early Epic levels, not ridiculous God-slaying levels.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-24, 02:51 PM
Also, what you said about ressurecting everyone who dies is just plain silly.

And yet allowed (and almost encouraged) by RAW...

Edit: God-slaying starts at 19th (when you can take on the FC 1+2 Aspects of the Demon Princes and Archdevils). As soon as you hit 21st, the rules go in the garbage and Epic Spellcasting takes over the multiverse.

You clearly are not versed in the ways of Epic Spellcasting, hence why you believe this thing to be a credible threat. Got news for you, an Extended Freedom of Movement, a single casting of Overland Flight, and 6 Wands of Magic Missile can take this thing down.

Kaiyanwang
2010-03-24, 02:52 PM
With Multigrab and Greater Multigrab, it can grapple with each appendage with no penalty. It can grapple everyone in the party simultaneously and deal automatic constrict damage. And fling them, just for the fun of it.

And that's so that it can actually see a good distance in underwater battles. Them only having 60 ft. darkvision seems kinda silly. While I'm at it, I would like to remind you that Epic levels are 21 and up. This is something for early Epic levels, not ridiculous God-slaying levels.

*Giggles* I like too grapple players smallsmile: (err..in game I'm the DM)

But Sinfire raised a good point. Fly. If players are smart, they can screw the kraken. Add something to pin them down.

And watch out to freedom of movements.

arguskos
2010-03-24, 02:53 PM
Also, what you said about ressurecting everyone who dies is just plain silly.
Sadly, what you feel is silly is completely legit and easy to accomplish, thanks to the epic rules. There are reasons that Epic as written isn't really playable.

Now, I applaud your aim, but unless you are willing to discard Epic Spellcasting and then give this fellow some actual ability to stop opponents with spells/ranged weapons, he's just shafted (lol arrow puns).

Jergmo
2010-03-24, 02:55 PM
Sadly, what you feel is silly is completely legit and easy to accomplish, thanks to the epic rules. There are reasons that Epic as written isn't really playable.

Now, I applaud your aim, but unless you are willing to discard Epic Spellcasting and then give this fellow some actual ability to stop opponents with spells/ranged weapons, he's just shafted (lol arrow puns).

A level 21-23 party is not going to have this. At best, they will have Epic spell Seeds. And, as mentioned again above with the flying, at any time the monster can dive. Again, this gives you the option of following after into his home turf, or you can just sit it out and allow a bunch of people to die. Some heroes!

Nerd-o-rama
2010-03-24, 02:55 PM
Getting back to your original post, though, I fail to see why you can't build up this kind of personality and flavor for say, a Hekatoncheires or an Abomination, or even one of those freaky time monsters just as well as you can for an advanced Balor. Just because it takes less work to write up a monster's stats doesn't give DMs an excuse to put no effort into their characterization and description. The bigger a threat a monster is, after all, the bigger a threat they should be portrayed as - it's not like any DM is just going to roll up an Atropal on a random encounter table and throw 3d4 of them at the player characters without any kind of buildup or sense behind it.

What I'm trying to say it, epic level challenges can and perhaps should be made up out of both what's in the ELH (which are all free to use, by the way, since it's an OGL book) and advanced regular critters. Why not?

Jergmo
2010-03-24, 02:57 PM
Getting back to your original post, though, I fail to see why you can't build up this kind of personality and flavor for say, a Hekatoncheires or an Abomination, or even one of those freaky time monsters just as well as you can for an advanced Balor. Just because it takes less work to write up a monster's stats doesn't give DMs an excuse to put no effort into their characterization and description. The bigger a threat a monster is, after all, the bigger a threat they should be portrayed as - it's not like any DM is just going to roll up an Atropal on a random encounter table and throw 3d4 of them at the player characters without any kind of buildup or sense behind it.

...Cosmic Abortion Clinic...

I feel bad for thinking that. :smallfrown:

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-24, 02:58 PM
A level 21-23 party is not going to have this. At best, they will have Epic spell Seeds. And, as mentioned again above with the flying, at any time the monster can dive. Again, this gives you the option of following after into his home turf, or you can just sit it out and allow a bunch of people to die. Some heroes!

Yes, they will, because they can migitate the DCs into a relatively low number. They then spam Dominates/Planar Bindings/Planar Ally castings to get the DCs even lower, and then make the Epic Spellcasting rules their *****. There's a reason CharOps doesn't touch the Epic rules with a 50ft rope.

Nerd-o-rama
2010-03-24, 02:58 PM
I was trying to avoid that topic, or dead baby jokes. It's very difficult to do so with Atropals.

Also I edited in a conclusion to my rambling there.

arguskos
2010-03-24, 02:59 PM
A level 21-23 party is not going to have this. At best, they will have Epic spell Seeds. And, as mentioned again above with the flying, at any time the monster can dive. Again, this gives you the option of following after into his home turf, or you can just sit it out and allow a bunch of people to die. Some heroes!
1. Yes, yes they can. Have you actually really sat down and scanned over the Epic Spell rules? If so, did you notice the mitigation section? If so, then this shouldn't be a discussion.

2. Yes, he can. Then, they can do a vast number of things, like track him so when he surfaces to eat some people, they just nuke him from a distance. Or, they can employ a large number of magical tricks to either go after him and play keep-away while peppering him to death or to bring him to them (totally possible, if probably pretty tough).

I'm not seeing where this specific monster solves any issues with Epic levels. Again, I really do applaud your point: custom advancing monsters and giving them appropriate level abilities is a great and fun way to play in these levels. However, you HAVE to solve Epic Spellcasting (probably by removing it) and you HAVE to account for the defenses these creatures will need to survive.

Also, Nerd-o-rama has an excellent point.

krossbow
2010-03-24, 03:01 PM
Very sloooooowwwwwwly.



God this made me lol.


I suddenly get the impression of some peasant going "Pelor does not care about black people" during this.

Jergmo
2010-03-24, 03:03 PM
Okay, I guess they can make this crazy spell, but I mean...are they going to spend their collective party wealth just so they can ressurect a bunch of people instead of actually taking out the dang monster?

Nerd-o-rama
2010-03-24, 03:04 PM
Not why I came in here, but on the subject of Epic Spellcasting...the solution to all its problems is actually right there in the rules.


http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/developingEpicSpells.htm

Development Is an Art

Many times developing a completely new epic spell requires some guesswork and rule stretching. As with making and pricing magic items, a sort of balancing act is required. Often the description of a seed will need to be stretched for a particular spell. If necessary, assess an “ad hoc” Spellcraft DC adjustment for any effect that cannot be extrapolated from the seeds and factors presented here—the example spells use ad hoc factors frequently. In all cases, the GM determines the actual Spellcraft DC of the new spell

Approval

This is the final step, and it’s critically important. The epic spell development work and reasoning must be shown to the GM and receive his or her approval. If the GM doesn’t approve, then the epic spell cannot be developed. However, the GM should explain why the epic spell wasn’t approved and possibly offer suggestions on how to create an epic spell that will be acceptable.

Underlined emphasis mine. The sum of the point here is - if your game actually has a GM, he shouldn't be allowing anyone to cast epic spells with a Spellcraft DC of 0, or any other unreasonably low-after-mitigations number. He should also probably impose some consequences on people for depopulating Celestia every time they want to cast a ritual.

Jergmo
2010-03-24, 03:06 PM
Not why I came in here, but on the subject of Epic Spellcasting...the solution to all its problems is actually right there in the rules.



Underlined emphasis mine. The sum of the point here is - if your game actually has a GM, he shouldn't be allowing anyone to cast epic spells with a Spellcraft DC of 0, or any other unreasonably low-after-mitigations number. He should also probably impose some consequences on people for depopulating Celestia every time they want to cast a ritual.

Oh, the chain-gating Solars thing, right. I actually took care of Gate cheese by having it so the spell allows a Will save.

arguskos
2010-03-24, 03:07 PM
Underlined emphasis mine. The sum of the point here is - if your game actually has a GM, he shouldn't be allowing anyone to cast epic spells with a Spellcraft DC of 0, or any other unreasonably low-after-mitigations number. He should also probably impose some consequences on people for depopulating Celestia every time they want to cast a ritual.
Well, yes. No one is arguing that. However, the spellcasting rules are blatantly inane. You either mitigate the spells down to crazy low numbers, or you have to make a DC 65+ check to cast METEOR SWARM as an epic spell. There seems to be no reasonable middle ground, the DCs are either crazy low or stupid high. Given the issues, it's much more reasonable to pitch the whole damn concept and ignore it.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-24, 03:07 PM
Not why I came in here, but on the subject of Epic Spellcasting...the solution to all its problems is actually right there in the rules.



Underlined emphasis mine. The sum of the point here is - if your game actually has a GM, he shouldn't be allowing anyone to cast epic spells with a Spellcraft DC of 0, or any other unreasonably low-after-mitigations number. He should also probably impose some consequences on people for depopulating Celestia every time they want to cast a ritual.

Its actually a printed case of the Oberoni Fallacy at work.


Okay, I guess they can make this crazy spell, but I mean...are they going to spend their collective party wealth just so they can ressurect a bunch of people instead of actually taking out the dang monster?


Two words: True Creation. XP is dirt at that level, you actually benefit if you would lose 21K in XP for casting it.

deuxhero
2010-03-24, 03:08 PM
Why should the god of parch sunstroke and skin cancer care about anyone?

Nerd-o-rama
2010-03-24, 03:09 PM
Well, yes. No one is arguing that. However, the spellcasting rules are blatantly inane. You either mitigate the spells down to crazy low numbers, or you have to make a DC 65+ check to cast METEOR SWARM as an epic spell. There seems to be no reasonable middle ground, the DCs are either crazy low or stupid high. Given the issues, it's much more reasonable to pitch the whole damn concept and ignore it.

Honestly, I feel the same way about all 3.5 spellcasting, and yet...

Jergmo
2010-03-24, 03:10 PM
I dunno, I've created several fairly reasonable Epic level spells with Spellcraft DCs around 35 or so.

ericgrau
2010-03-24, 03:10 PM
Hate to break it to you, but anything with a decent Fly speed, a bow, and a ****-ton of arrows can take this thing down and never worry about taking damage.

At best you'd have a stalemate, since all the kraken has to do is go under water and you'll have trouble shooting him at all. Even if you chase it underwater you'll be facing at least a -24 to hit at any safe distance. At worst you'll fail to save the ship (if sailing), or one of your allies will be left alone to get grappled under water (if swimming). Because after all this is an aquatic encounter and probably not some random sunbathing legendary kraken you saw while flying over the ocean.

Also, agreed on the limitations of epic capabilities here. For CR 25 to be a life threatening fight the party must be level 21. Level 23 if this is merely a challenging fight. The casting should be mostly non-epic or maybe a couple 10th level spells via metamagic. Any reasonable epic spell, if there is one, won't be much better.

arguskos
2010-03-24, 03:10 PM
Honestly, I feel the same way about all 3.5 spellcasting, and yet...
And if you do so for your games, awesome. There's a ton of good systems to replace Vancian casting with. Some of us like it (such as myself, though I fix as much of the broken material as I can), but there exist a number of good systems to use in it's stead.

Epic Spellcasting, however, has no replacements. It either exists (and is broken as hell) or doesn't (and there was much rejoicing).

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-24, 03:12 PM
At best you'd have a stalemate, since all the kraken has to do is go under water and you'll have trouble shooting him at all. Even if you chase it underwater you'll be facing at least a -24 to hit at any safe distance. At worst you'll fail to save the ship (if sailing), or one of your allies will be left alone to get grappled under water (if swimming). Because after all this is an aquatic encounter.

In which case the Encounter is considered bypassed, and either XP or no XP. Everyone goes home and forgets about it.

Nerd-o-rama
2010-03-24, 03:13 PM
Well, there's this one substitute for the 3.5 Epic Level rules. I hesitate to talk about it on this board for fear of this thread being consumed in a vitriolic spiral of flaming invectives, though.

...

4th Edition

arguskos
2010-03-24, 03:13 PM
In which case the Encounter is considered bypassed, and either XP or no XP. Everyone goes home and forgets about it.
Pragmatism, thy name is Sinfire.

EDIT: I see what you did there, Nerd-o-rama. :smallamused:

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-24, 03:15 PM
Pragmatism, thy name is Sinfire.

EDIT: I see what you did there, Nerd-o-rama. :smallamused:


What can I say, I take no prisoners. Dead people are much easier to talk to.

ericgrau
2010-03-24, 03:18 PM
In which case the Encounter is considered bypassed, and either XP or no XP. Everyone goes home and forgets about it.

Then it's the DM's fault for sending a beast of pure legend as a random encounter. See 2nd half of previous post, which is far more plausible. That, and I could "bypass" any low level wilderness encounter with the run feat and/or a mildly boosted movement speed but that doesn't mean I'm much of a hero.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-24, 03:20 PM
Then it's the DM's fault for sending a beast of pure legend as a random encounter. See 2nd half of previous post, which is far more plausible.

The thing is, there is no middle grounds in the ELH. Everything is either going to kill you in two rounds or is a trivial little bug on the windshield.




There's no in between because the rules are written with AD&D in mind, not 3.0 or 3.5.

Jergmo
2010-03-24, 03:22 PM
Then it's the DM's fault for sending a beast of pure legend as a random encounter. See 2nd half of previous post, which is far more plausible. That, and I could "bypass" any low level wilderness encounter with the run feat and/or a mildly boosted movement speed but that doesn't mean I'm much of a hero.

I'm saying, I'm not allowing it to be something that you just forget about. If you're not going to make sure the job is done, then there are going to be some consequences.

arguskos
2010-03-24, 03:23 PM
That, and I could "bypass" any low level wilderness encounter with the run feat and/or a mildly boosted movement speed but that doesn't mean I'm much of a hero.
Out of curiosity, who CARES about being a hero all of the time? I mean, playing an amoral bastard who's only concerned with survival and money is fun sometimes as a diversion. Not for a full campaign, mind you, but sometimes, it's more enjoyable to just flee from the bandits/demons/eldritch horrors.

FishAreWet
2010-03-24, 03:25 PM
AC is only 21. Means that all melee can full power attack and still hit. A somewhat respectable level 20 melee build can put out 600 damage in a full round attack. Tumble DC 15, which is trivial even for cross class at this point, avoids the AoO to close range. He can kill it in two rounds. God forbid there is a Fighter and a Barbarian.


A horrible spellcaster, without epic spells, can just throw Save or Sucks. Do you know how easy it is to optimize DCs by level 20? His Will is only +33. A sorceror can easily fire off.... four or five Charm Monsters per round. Even if the DC is only 36, he'll still probably fail. And that's ignoring the hundreds of No Save and Sucks!

My point isn't that the monster sucks. my point is that high level DnD is not a combat game. It's a strategy game.

ericgrau
2010-03-24, 03:26 PM
The thing is, there is no middle grounds in the ELH. Everything is either going to kill you in two rounds or is a trivial little bug on the windshield.

I dunno that kraken seems decent enough. He can't grapple (EDIT: nor fling) any self respecting 20+ level adventurer on account of the fact that most non-epic magic items are cheap at this level. He does moderate damage even if given power attack to take advantage of his ridiculous AB. He has "only" 1200 HP at a level when PCs can dish out 200-300 on a full attack (maybe more against that low AC), and 75+ on a single. Even without ubercharging. It could be a good fight. OTOH at such a high level varying optimization, or simply HD advancement errors could throw the CR off a bit. The DM may have to adjust somewhat.

Jergmo
2010-03-24, 03:28 PM
AC is only 21. Means that all melee can full power attack and still hit. A somewhat respectable level 20 melee build can put out 600 damage in a full round attack. Tumble DC 15, which is trivial even for cross class at this point, avoids the AoO to close range. He can kill it in two rounds. God forbid there is a Fighter and a Barbarian.


A horrible spellcaster, without epic spells, can just throw Save or Sucks. Do you know how easy it is to optimize DCs by level 20? His Will is only +33. A sorceror can easily fire off.... four or five Charm Monsters per round. Even if the DC is only 36, he'll still probably fail. And that's ignoring the hundreds of No Save and Sucks!

My point isn't that the monster sucks. my point is that high level DnD is not a combat game. It's a strategy game.

Would the fighter care to swim down in its 80 ft. reach of tentacles (which can fling him several hundred feet away) and 40 ft. reach of arms (which can also fling him several hundred feet away?) Also...I need to vanish for a couple hours, so no more input from me for now I'm afraid. :smallfrown:

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-24, 03:30 PM
I dunno that kraken seems decent enough. He can't grapple any self respecting 20+ level adventurer on account of the fact that most non-epic magic items are cheap at this level. He does moderate damage even if given power attack to take advantage of his ridiculous AB. He has "only" 1200 HP at a level when PCs can dish out 200-300 on a full attack (maybe more against that low AC), and 75+ on a single. Even without ubercharging. It could be a good fight.

Except it can't do a damn thing to a party that is 21st level because they can Teleport and nuke it from orbit. I mean, what's the point of sending something that doesn't even have Spell Resistance at DnD's equivalent of the TAG Rifle?

ericgrau
2010-03-24, 03:31 PM
See my first post.

Hadrian_Emrys
2010-03-24, 03:48 PM
Hecatoncheires is a rather simple mod to spike up on the threat scale:

1: Trade out Greater Magic Weapon for Fuse Arms (bumping the accursed thing's Str to 432 [+216 modifier]) and Shield for Blade Storm.
2: Switch out a couple of the useless feats it has in order to make it a charger with a level of barbarian.
3: Make it Tauric and give it a pair of lances.
4: ?
5: Profit.

-and that's just a quick update off the top of my head.

Runestar
2010-03-24, 05:05 PM
Except it can't do a damn thing to a party that is 21st level because they can Teleport and nuke it from orbit. I mean, what's the point of sending something that doesn't even have Spell Resistance at DnD's equivalent of the TAG Rifle?

One might argue there is little point to giving monsters sr at higher lvs, since they are capable of bypassing it easily anyways, albeit at a cost of a 4th lv slot per encounter...:smalltongue:

Anyways, the issue is that many monsters don't really scale well for their HD past +2-3 cr. Grapple is useless as every PC is assumed to have freedom of movement on 24/7, or at least be able to access it at a moment's notice. The only way I am using a monster with such a crap AC is if it also has elusive target (which negates PA damage), though I suppose it might make combat faster because nobody has to waste time rolling to see if they hit. :smallbiggrin:

Likewise, a 60HD balor would be fairly weak for its 41cr, even if you houserule that its defenses such as dr and SLAs continue to scale (using dicefreak's fiend advancement guidelines). Past a certain point, I think you are better off just redesigning a new monster from the ground up, rather than trying to modify existing beasts.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-24, 05:09 PM
One might argue there is little point to giving monsters sr at higher lvs, since they are capable of bypassing it easily anyways, albeit at a cost of a 4th lv slot per encounter...:smalltongue:

Anyways, the issue is that many monsters don't really scale well for their HD past +2-3 cr. Grapple is useless as every PC is assumed to have freedom of movement on 24/7, or at least be able to access it at a moment's notice. The only way I am using a monster with such a crap AC is if it also has elusive target (which negates PA damage), though I suppose it might make combat faster because nobody has to waste time rolling to see if they hit. :smallbiggrin:

Likewise, a 60HD balor would be fairly weak for its 41cr, even if you houserule that its defenses such as dr and SLAs continue to scale (using dicefreak's fiend advancement guidelines). Past a certain point, I think you are better off just redesigning a new monster from the ground up, rather than trying to modify existing beasts.

Kinda missed the point, but I do agree. The point was that his defenses were laughable. At least the Spell Resistance would have required a CL check of 70 or so (or forced a different type of tactic, which is generally the point behind SR).

But there's no really much point in forcing the Players to switch from a TAG Rifle to the Flak Cannon, since both can kill it equally well.

Runestar
2010-03-24, 07:06 PM
At least the Spell Resistance would have required a CL check of 70 or so (or forced a different type of tactic, which is generally the point behind SR).

I normally have sr scale in line with sr, rather than HD. So a cr23 kraken would have cr of around 34.

Of course, the OP could always slap on the spellwarped template, or half-dragon + that feat in draconomicon which gives dragons sr = HD.

Also, the kraken qualifies for improved combat expertise, and a high enough bab that it should be able to support a -20 boost to attack for +20 AC, though this also means it cannot to PA for as much. :smallannoyed:

PersonMan
2010-03-24, 07:12 PM
I normally have sr scale in line with sr, rather than HD. So a cr23 kraken would have cr of around 34.

You normally have spell resistance scale in line with spell resistance, rather than HD? So this CR 23 kraken would have a CR of "around 34"?

...Sorry, this was just too good to pass up.

arguskos
2010-03-24, 07:33 PM
Hecatoncheires is a rather simple mod to spike up on the threat scale:

1: Trade out Greater Magic Weapon for Fuse Arms (bumping the accursed thing's Str to 432 [+216 modifier]) and Shield for Blade Storm.
2: Switch out a couple of the useless feats it has in order to make it a charger with a level of barbarian.
3: Make it Tauric and give it a pair of lances.
4: ?
5: Profit.

-and that's just a quick update off the top of my head.
As much as that amuses me, it also defeats the POINT of a Hectoncheires (a Hundred-Handed One). :smalltongue:

krossbow
2010-03-24, 08:05 PM
Pair it up with this to take out the flyers.

http://1d4chan.org/images/e/ed/Balloon_Tarrasque.png

Godskook
2010-03-24, 09:23 PM
Jergmo, just to get an idea where Sinfire Titan is coming from, here's what an ECL 18 party can look like, optimized:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4394436

Hadrian_Emrys
2010-03-24, 09:52 PM
As much as that amuses me, it also defeats the POINT of a Hectoncheires (a Hundred-Handed One). :smalltongue:

Feh! The Spell Compendium uses a Marilith as the example critter. Those epic level bad boys are just the next logical step up the chain. :smallwink: I just love how one level 2 spell is all it takes to create the most hardcore arm-wrestler EVER.

Shalist
2010-03-24, 10:17 PM
I like the critter, and the flavor that goes with it. When I think of fighting this thing, I think of clever bait-schemes, an armada of ships strung together from a dozen nations. The creature wreaking great havoc, but ultimately being forced to flee, with the party of adventurers tracking it through the murky depths to its lair to finish the fight once and for all.

But then, I never could stomach rocket-tag.

On a side note, flavor-wise he really could use something defensive--HD/hr regeneration (particularly handy for the tentacles), higher AC, or some DR/magic. Regular npcs with mundane weapons might not really threaten it, but they could still hurt it rather easily.

And something to manipulate water, either physically with his bulk, or with magic. You could say he somehow picked up the weather and water SLAs from devouring the Bronze, ages ago.

Captainocaptain
2010-03-24, 10:41 PM
Ummm, for the most part, wouldn't the easiest thing to do in the case where your epic monsters are too easy, and the book ones are too... random, be to, well, DM farce it. or Rule 0 basically.
Just say. Ok you power attack and hit for 670 damage... (check monster's HP 575) Okay, its not dead *add a 0 to the end of the monster's HP* (575 becomes 5750.)
Also:
DM: The monster grapples you.
Player: I have Freedom of Movement!
DM: The monster is emitting an antimagic field.
EDIT:I know its a little ad-hoc-ed, but the encounter should be fun and challenging. Even if you have to break some rules.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-03-24, 11:03 PM
Or you could, you know, keep the tension up by accepting how the dice fall, not constantly fudging, and making the next opponent more difficult.

Hadrian_Emrys
2010-03-24, 11:11 PM
Or you could, you know, keep the tension up by accepting how the dice fall, not constantly fudging, and making the next opponent more difficult.

Gonna toss a +1 on the above.

Arsepulls like semi god-sue foes really cheat the players of their glory.

krossbow
2010-03-24, 11:12 PM
Ummm, for the most part, wouldn't the easiest thing to do in the case where your epic monsters are too easy, and the book ones are too... random, be to, well, DM farce it. or Rule 0 basically.
Just say. Ok you power attack and hit for 670 damage... (check monster's HP 575) Okay, its not dead *add a 0 to the end of the monster's HP* (575 becomes 5750.)
Also:
DM: The monster grapples you.
Player: I have Freedom of Movement!
DM: The monster is emitting an antimagic field.
EDIT:I know its a little ad-hoc-ed, but the encounter should be fun and challenging. Even if you have to break some rules.


so bascially

"Player: I do XXXX"

"DM: NUH UH!"

Player: Why?

DM: Its a secret! and he's going to now pierce your defenses because its a class feature.

Player: My contingency spell goes off...

DM:

http://thumbs.roflposters.com/images/rofl/thumbs/1210888253856.jpg.thumb.jpg

taltamir
2010-03-24, 11:18 PM
why do you even need epic spells for this monster?
freedom of movement, water breathing, flight, and dispell are all acquired well before epic.

Epic casting means your level 21 caster has infinity HP, AC, saves, STR (and thus damage/grapple/etc), and so on and so forth.
or he needs to spend half a million GP and 20 million XP to research a once a day meteor storm spell that also requires a DC65+ check to cast...
The whole thing should be thrown in the garbage where it belongs... any one of us can pull a better system out of their nether regions.

Anyways... I would combine the above non epic defenses with spells that drain its will save followed by a will save or lose/die. (if I am allowed a great enough range of spells, just lose without any save).

Evil the Cat
2010-03-24, 11:34 PM
Simplish fix.

Due to his lair being in one of the cornerstones from which the gods formed the oceans, he has absorbed some of the cosmic energy. This primal energy interferes with magic from any source except himself (antimagic field SU with 120' radius) while you're at it, make all his SLAs SU.

Give each tentacle its own set of actions (including access to his Supernatural abilities) And just for fun, let him plane shift to and from the plane of water, to get anywhere in the ocean in mere moments.

I know a lot of things still work through antimagic. This is in no way designed to make it unkillable, but it does deal with some of the more obvious flaws.


Oh, and epic casting still borks the hell out of everything. I'd suggest dropping it entirely. If you want epicish casting, just make up arbitrary spell levels for what people want to do and let em put enough epic feats into it to get to that level. (Note, resurrect the multiverse should not be allowed at any level)

Godskook
2010-03-25, 02:19 PM
I normally have sr scale in line with sr, rather than HD. So a cr23 kraken would have cr of around 34.

Problem is, by epic, the SR casters are hauling a hefty 30+ caster level and have a +34 on spell resistance checks. An SR: 34 would get torn apart.

Kaiyanwang
2010-03-25, 03:45 PM
If both by player and DM part there is not malice, you can build beautiful things with epic spellcasting, but the system is very clumsy. Maybe use them (i.e, have the DM declare as working) only rituals to make insland fly or similar oddities.

As said above, action economy is the main issue IMO.

Volkov
2010-03-26, 06:58 AM
And it's still vulnerable to Dispel Magic. Incredibly so if it is intended to be an Epic Monster (seeing as Caster Levels for an ECL 25th Wizard should be somewhere in the mid-30's).


Edit:


BIG DEAL!


An Epic-level PC can make a spell to Rez the entire Material Plane with no GP cost. At will mind you.


Need I remind you that an Epic PC is dealing with Deities by RAW? And can likely kill them outright?
Only with stupid optimization. Which is never the norm. Ever.

Volkov
2010-03-26, 07:06 AM
Except it can't do a damn thing to a party that is 21st level because they can Teleport and nuke it from orbit. I mean, what's the point of sending something that doesn't even have Spell Resistance at DnD's equivalent of the TAG Rifle?

Very few parties actually act like that. Fighting in the most optimum way possible is the exception, not the norm.

Runestar
2010-03-26, 07:21 AM
One thing I noticed about epic monsters is that their stats are way superior to advanced monsters of the same cr. Even the chichemic seems to be a tad stronger than the titan (even though both have the same cr).

Compare a 60HD balor (cr41) with an elder titan (70HD, cr29). There is no question that the latter is statistically superior in every way (more HD, sorc spellcasting, even epic spellcasting!). Give it multispell and auto-quicken, and you are looking at a monster who can spam 2-3 spells/round while full attacking.

From this, I would conclude that non-epic monsters probably don't work too well vs epic characters, even when advanced appropriately. You will likely still need to redesign epic monsters from the ground up so they can properly challenge epic PCs. :smallsmile:

taltamir
2010-03-26, 08:25 AM
From this, I would conclude that non-epic monsters probably don't work too well vs epic characters, even when advanced appropriately. You will likely still need to redesign epic monsters from the ground up so they can properly challenge epic PCs. :smallsmile:

actually, epic doesn't work well... its like the truenamer.
WOTC wrote the truenamer in a book once... and then pretended it never existed again... never has truenaming been mentioned in any book by WOTC. No updates, no new spells, no new features.

The epic handbook was the worst book ever written by WOTC. Any one of us could take a dump and find better quality system (then epic) in the toilet. WOTC pretends it doesn't exist. It has not seen any new content or any mention of its content ever since.

Now that I think about it, isn't the epic handbook 3.0e?

Sliver
2010-03-26, 08:37 AM
Now that I think about it, isn't the epic handbook 3.0e?

Well yeah, but it got an errata in '06 so I think it's 3.5e compatible.. Bummer..

Runestar
2010-03-26, 08:41 AM
The epic handbook was the worst book ever written by WOTC. Any one of us could take a dump and find better quality system (then epic) in the toilet.

Such as?

Granted, a lot of the material inside was pure rubbish (such as the epic non-caster feats, epic magic gear being prohibitively expensive), but I feel the designers really had quite a few good ideas (such as their reasoning for epic bab/saves).

The epic monsters are also pretty cool. But yeah, I feel it could have been a web enhancement instead. I don't think anyone appreciated so many pages being devoted to Union city. :smallyuk:


WOTC pretends it doesn't exist. It has not seen any new content or any mention of its content ever since.

That is probably because wotc feels there is little demand for epic adventures, so there is really very little opportunity to use epic material.

I think some of the epic material was used in elder evils, but that's pretty much it.

Cyclocone
2010-03-26, 08:44 AM
WOTC pretends it doesn't exist. It has not seen any new content or any mention of its content ever since.

Sorry, but that's not true.

On top of my head: Psionics, Incarnum and WoL all support Epic; and so does a lot of FR books (they also kinda have to, though): LEoF has two additional epic Seeds, PGtF has Netherese Arcanist and Elven High Mage is in RoF.

Kaiyanwang
2010-03-26, 09:08 AM
Completes too (first four) support epic too.

And there are noncaster feats worthy if you know what are you doing.

Runestar
2010-03-26, 09:23 AM
And there are noncaster feats worthy if you know what are you doing.

Perhaps, but the majority are readily replicable by non-epic abilities.

Melee weapon mastery is superior to epic weapon focus. 2weapon rend was reprinted as a non-epic feat. With feats like rapid blitz and weapon supremacy setting the bar for possible fighter capstones, epic feats should not really be any weaker than them.

The only ones seem worthy are devastating crit (assuming you are TWFing and have a crit range of 15-20) and maybe dire charge (and even then, there are many ways to move as a swift action). The rest aren't worth the paper they are printed on, IMO.

katans
2010-03-26, 09:55 AM
Oh, for the love of anything remotely serious... Spectral Hand + Otto's Irresistible Dance. You've got a happy dancing kraken while the rest of the party unleashes gory hell.

And I'm not even trying.

Kaiyanwang
2010-03-26, 10:03 AM
Perhaps, but the majority are readily replicable by non-epic abilities.

Melee weapon mastery is superior to epic weapon focus. 2weapon rend was reprinted as a non-epic feat. With feats like rapid blitz and weapon supremacy setting the bar for possible fighter capstones, epic feats should not really be any weaker than them.

The only ones seem worthy are devastating crit (assuming you are TWFing and have a crit range of 15-20) and maybe dire charge (and even then, there are many ways to move as a swift action). The rest aren't worth the paper they are printed on, IMO.



Well, consider that at the time dire charge was written, there were not so many way to move as a swift.

Say it's like combat archery - at the time there weren't so may way to avoid AOO shooting in melee. But fine feats exist..

Rogueish ones are fine.
Dexterous Fortitude and D Will can be life safer, like epic dodge. Lingering damage is nice, sneak attack of opportunity requires studied build but can be nasty. Think about some AOO build.

Death of enemies is good with some weapon and a lot of attacks.

The deflection ones (exceptional and infinite) are great, and with a web enhancement, who has access to epic weapon focus with any weapon can use them. Combo with reflect arrows to "orb back" the wizard.

Improved combat reflexes is great with feat granting additional attacks at each opportunity.

Keen Strike + Vorpal can be fine with roundabout kick and the FAQ interpretation of flurry TWF. Add snap kick, tumble 40 to gain movement, or dire charge, multiclass to gain pounce or movement (swordasge, tashalora) to attempt the proc, in the meanwhile gain additional attacks with criticals.

Wonder if Spellcasting Harrier stacks with mage slayer.

Don't understimate uncanny accuracy, since there are a lot of way to gain concealment, expecially at those levels. One could say that magic items could help, bu still exist concealments that true seeing can't overcome IIRC.

I see most of them as completition of non epic feat combos or class features and yes, there are several just meh.


Acually, I wish wotc made an "Expanded" ELH like for psionics, adding late edition material. I had fun with ELH, anyway, expecially when I did't have so many splats. The book itslef is, for me, like MMII: full of flaws, but more inspiring than more balanced material.

Jergmo
2010-03-26, 10:52 AM
Oh, for the love of anything remotely serious... Spectral Hand + Otto's Irresistible Dance. You've got a happy dancing kraken while the rest of the party unleashes gory hell.

And I'm not even trying.

One of the house rules in my campaign is that pretty much every spell allows a save of some kind, except for effects that deal Force.

absolmorph
2010-03-26, 11:57 AM
One of the house rules in my campaign is that pretty much every spell allows a save of some kind, except for effects that deal Force.
Of course, we don't use your house rules, now do we? Otherwise, I could bring up a whole bunch of stuff that I use that would make this thing fall to a fighter with a shortbow in one round.
Well, actually, it's 4 feats I house-ruled to work differently, but my point still stands.
Don't claim your house rules as a defense against a tactic.

Gan The Grey
2010-03-26, 12:23 PM
Of course, we don't use your house rules, now do we? Otherwise, I could bring up a whole bunch of stuff that I use that would make this thing fall to a fighter with a shortbow in one round.
Well, actually, it's 4 feats I house-ruled to work differently, but my point still stands.
Don't claim your house rules as a defense against a tactic.

Yeah....he didn't claim anything there, captain. He made a comment. Calm the freak down.

Jergmo
2010-03-26, 12:35 PM
Yeah....he didn't claim anything there, captain. He made a comment. Calm the freak down.

I think it's something in the water. :smalleek:

I would have mentioned this earlier, but it didn't seem like it mattered.

Augmented Lurk
2010-03-26, 04:31 PM
Oh, for the love of anything remotely serious... Spectral Hand + Otto's Irresistible Dance


Doesn't work. Spectral hand can only deliver touch spells of 4th level or lower.

Volkov
2010-03-26, 04:45 PM
Pair it up with this to take out the flyers.

http://1d4chan.org/images/e/ed/Balloon_Tarrasque.png

My god......this is pure awesome. It should get a gaze attack that makes it's foes heads (and the rest of their bodies) explode with no saving throw, and it is so awesome that it affects those usually immune to gaze attacks and isn't a death effect. It is that amazing.

Volkov
2010-03-26, 05:35 PM
Also, a Xixecal would defeat either of your advanced monsters fairly easily.

Runestar
2010-03-26, 05:46 PM
Someone should strap water cannons onto that thing. Then it will fly by using the water pressure to launch it into the air...:smallbiggrin:


I see most of them as completition of non epic feat combos or class features and yes, there are several just meh.

To be fair, the game was likely still quite new back then, so it was unclear how strong epic abilities should be. But I think many of the epic feats could simply now be mid-high lv feats.

Improved combat reflexes - the high dex means that by the time you qualify, you are already capable of making at least 8 AoOs each round. What are the chances you need more?

Improved combat casting - I am already automatically succeeding on any attempt to cast defensively, unless I keep running into foes with mage slayer / spellcasting harrier.

Improved whirlwind - I am doing the same thing with a 4th lv iron heart maneuver.

I agree the rogue feats are fairly useful. They somehow slipped my mind.


Doesn't work. Spectral hand can only deliver touch spells of 4th level or lower.

Close enough - Archmage's arcane reach.

The Glyphstone
2010-03-26, 05:51 PM
Close enough - Archmage's arcane reach.

Or Reach Spell.


Now why is the image of a dancing kraken indescribably funny to me all of a sudden? On a stage, with a hat and cane?

Eldariel
2010-03-26, 05:57 PM
Or Reach Spell.


Now why is the image of a dancing kraken indescribably funny to me all of a sudden? On a stage, with a hat and cane?

Hm...that reminds me of the Ultros (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mocwUrcDx6E) Boogie (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnXYVlPgX_o&feature=related)

absolmorph
2010-03-26, 11:37 PM
Yeah....he didn't claim anything there, captain. He made a comment. Calm the freak down.
He was using it as an argument against a simple tactic that would make it an easy encounter. I countered by pointing out that his house rule doesn't make it any less under powered as an epic encounter, because, hey, if we use house rules, I don't need spells to take it down. I need 5 arrows and a short bow, as a Fighter 20. Maybe more, if I decide to use Manyshot. And they don't need to be magical. That's why his house rule doesn't make it an encounter more suited for epic levels; my house rule (just as valid; it's meant to make mundane damage way higher, making spell casting not necessarily a superior damage option) makes it not suitable as an epic level encounter, anyways.

Yes, I run high-powered campaigns. It's more fun, in my opinion.

However, I somewhat agree with the sentiment of the thread; I find much enjoyment in creating my monsters (typically using the MM or SRD entry as a guide) to suit whatever use they have. I customized a few dinosaurs and a rhino for a villain I'll use, and I created three of the primordial beings, who are as much a part of the Prime Material Plane as the mountains and seas, from scratch. And largely ignoring the normal methods of stat generation and feats; 100+ levels of feats is just a pain in the butt to figure out in your head.
But, I make sure they can take whatever punishment my party will be able to throw at them.

Akal Saris
2010-03-27, 02:33 AM
Doesn't work. Spectral hand can only deliver touch spells of 4th level or lower.

Here's a fun little homebrew response, since we're talking epic level:

Strahd's Vampiric Hand
[Epic Spell boilerplate, make the DC around 40 like Epic Mage Armor]

A spectral hand with sharpened nails appears, glowing with dark energy.

As Spectral Hand, except that Strahd's Vampiric Hand can deliver up to 9th level spells. Every touch spell delivered includes a secondary effect: an empowered vampiric touch with a CL cap of 40. If killed by either the primary spell or the vampiric touch effect, the victim rises in 1d4 rounds as a vampire spawn under the caster's control.

SilverStar
2010-03-27, 09:11 AM
I generally don't use monsters, per se; I use creatures with intelligence and class levels.

It's far easier to balance relative strength and such when your bad guys can sling around pretty much the same stuff your epic level party is doing. I take care to ensure that it's a challenge, but not impossible- I'm familiar with my players' mindsets, abilities, and the characters' parameters.

Sometimes this poses an issue when I think of something they've not yet realized, but they eventually figure it out.

Most of the ELH critters are a joke as written, but when you give a leShay class levels... it gets interesting.