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KingoftheTrees
2010-03-24, 05:30 PM
I'm playing a cleric right now (cleric 6/Radiant Servant of Pelor 6) and was wondering if anyone has any advice on higher level cleric builds? Like good spells/equipment/weapons? If it helps, my group is playing the Savage Tide Adventure Path, and yes. I do know who the final boss is. I feel like I have a good grasp on what clerics can do (I haven't died yet *knock on wood*) even though this is technically my first time ever playing 3.5 edition. I was just wondering if anyone has any pointers.

Keld Denar
2010-03-24, 05:43 PM
If you can, drop the 6th level of RSoP. Its kinda a trap, unless you are planning on taking it to 10. Empower is better for heals in most cases because the +CL part multiplies. This is especially true if you are dropping Mass Cure Light, where a 12th level caster would heal 20 points with maximize, or 1d8+12 x 1.5 (average 24.75). 5th level gets you the bonus domain, which is the real gold of the class anyway. Definitely head into Sacred Exorcist at that point. You should EASILY qualify as a RSoP. SacEx gives you a few nice things, namedly the Consecrate Aura. This aura gives a tangable boost to your turn undead checks, along with your turn checks to power Divine Spell Power (assuming you use DSP). Sac Ex also loses NOTHING from cleric levels, being d8, 3/4 BAB, full casting, full turning.

Not sure about outsiders in Savage Tide, but a little trick to get more bang out of your turn undead buck is to take the spell Turn Anathema from Complete Champion. Its 2nd level, thus easily Quickened, and allows you to turn outsiders as easily as undead, except that you can't dust them. There is NO way to resist this, and a 10th level cleric can EASILY turn a Balor with minimal investment in swag.

KingoftheTrees
2010-03-24, 06:27 PM
It's funny you mention that... I actually do want to take a full 10 levels of RSoP for the Maximize and Empower Healing Domain spells (I have the Spontaneous Domain Casting -Healing ACF from PHB2) to help out our party since I'm the only real effective healer. (We have a Druid but he's concentrating more on his Wildshaping) I was going to head into Sac Ex after my 10th level, because of some of the nifty things it has, like that Consecrated Presence. I actually am going to start using DSP soon, and since I turn 2 levels higher (and the minimum I can roll for a turn check is my level +1) I'm good for using my turn check to increase my caster level. And I already have the spell Turn Anathema. It's saved us a couple times already. I've been told that we'll be hip-deep in outsiders later on in the campaign... I took the Glory Domain at 5th RSoP. The good thing about my DM is that he appreciates that there aren't many undead in this campaign, so he's letting me take free divine feats for the "empty" levels of RSoP.

jiriku
2010-03-24, 06:38 PM
Without knowing your build in detail, it's hard to be specific, but since you're new to D&D and playing a radiant servant, I'll assume you're focused primarily on healing and party support through spellcasting. If you're more interested in melee combat, ignore everything I'm about to write because you'll want an entirely different set of gear.

Items that enhance your Wisdom and Charisma scores will improve your turning and spellcasting. In particular, get the best periapt of wisdom you can get your hands on.

Strong saves are important, because you can't help your friends if you've been affected by an effect that prevents you from taking actions. Get the best resistance bonus to saves you can get, and if you can get an item that enhances your Constitution, that will improve both your Fortitude saves and your hit points.

If you typically prepare of lot of healing and buffing spells, a ring of invisibility is a great way to keep the heat off of yourself while you cast.

If you don't already have a shield, get one and cast magic vestment on it regularly. A heavy shield with magic vestment at CL 12 will add 5 points to your AC.

Clerics have few spells that allow them to teleport, so if you can get an item that allows you to teleport even a short distance a few times per day, that's handy. A lot of higher-level monsters have improved grab, constrict, swallow whole, crush, and similar attacks that pin you in place, hurt you, and make it difficult to cast. A quick teleportation effect can save you.

Edit: Oh dear God. Free divine feats. Kiss your DM for me. Alrighty, you are ready for the cadillac of cleric-zilla then. Get yourself ASAP Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, and Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell). Divine Spellpower is also a hotdog of a feat. A single persisted vigorous circle (found in Spell Compendium and Complete Divine) will provide METRIC TONS of between-combat healing for your party, freeing up a huge number of your spell slots for other purposes. You can also persist buffs on yourself so that you're able to spend fewer rounds in combat getting ready to do, and more rounds actually doing. If your DM permits them to stack (many DMs do not) the nightstick from Libris Mortis will give you +4 turn undead uses per day, fueling extra uses of Divine Spellpower and Divine Metamagic. Even if they won't stack, it's worthwhile to get one. Also pick up the reliquary amulet from the Magic Item Compendium, which will give you 1-3 extra turn undead uses depending on how many prerequisites you meet.

Nohwl
2010-03-24, 06:40 PM
the cleric handbook on brilliantgameologists is really good. you should check it out if you haven't. link (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=420.0)

what did you want to do with your cleric? healing? buffing? melee? ranged?

Superglucose
2010-03-24, 06:59 PM
If you're big on the healing and protection rather than the smacking, do yourself a huge favor:

Start by buffing your allies so they don't get hit.

End by buffing your allies so they kill in one shot.

The faster combats go by, and the safer your party is, the better. "Cure Critical Wounds" and "Heal" are no defense against "Finger of Death" so you better have Deathward, Spell Turning, and Superior Resistance up, and for good measure make sure the enemy wizard is dead five different ways before he gets to act.

You'll discover that every spell you use to buff up AC/DR/Miss Chance/Grant immunities/Grant resistances will roughly translate to two or more healing spells you don't have to cast.

In a sense, magical warfare at high levels is identical to duelists wearing heavy armor in real life: both of you are thrusting and parrying trying to discover the chink in the enemy's (in this case magical) armor.

KingoftheTrees
2010-03-24, 07:13 PM
Ok here's what I have so far.
Race - Human

Equipment:
+3 Sectioned Armor
Greater Crystal of Aquatic Action (we're on a boat! Well most of the time)
+3 Variable Tower Shield (RSoP says "proficent with all martial weapons and with shields. DM says that sure, includes tower shields)
Circlet of Persuasion/Minor Displacement
Periapt of Wisdom+4/Con+2
Gloves of Dex +2 (nothing like adding a little to your reflex saves when they SUCK)
Boots of springing/striding
Belt of Priestly Might Str+2/NA +1
Cloak of Charisma +4
Ring of Mystic Healing (cast healing spells +1 CL)
Armband of Elusive Action (negate 1 AoO/day)
Heward's Handy Haversack
Quiver of Ehlonna
Also, my DM gave me a special Holy Symbol that grants various spell-like abilities: including turning +2 levels higher, constant Protection From Evil, Magic Circle against Evil 1/day

Weapons:
+4 longsword
+2 heavy mace
+3 Evil Outsider Bane Longbow
+2 warhammer of spellstoring
+2 Thundering warhammer (I'm gonna sell this)

Feats:
Spellcasting Prodigy (My DM loves this feat and swears by it)
Healing Devotion (saved my life at least 20 times)
Extra Turning
Zen Archery (good for ranged spells, also I want to get into ranged combat)
Good Devotion
Divine Spell Power
Improved Power - Healing Domain

In almost every fight the first things I do are Aid, Mass and then Shield of Faith, Mass. After that if anyone needs healed I do that or cast Recitation (gotta love deflection + luck bonuses stacking :)

Keld Denar
2010-03-24, 07:18 PM
I'm really fond of the feat Quick Recovery from Lords of Madness. Basically, if you start your turn unable to act, you can spend your move action (woo) to attempt a save to break the effect. Even if that effect didn't allow a save to begin with. This is great for breaking no-save effects like Blasphemy or the spell Stun Ray, or giving you a 2nd chance against a botched save vs something like Illithid Mind Blast or whatever.

Also, if you are packing the spell Mass Resurgance, you can break out and give everyone else a 2nd save to break themselves out. This is pretty game changing at the right moment.

EDIT:

At 12th level, you should have a Hero's Feast up every day. This negates most of what Mass Aid grants, and gives SOOO much more, and is a long duration buff.

jiriku
2010-03-24, 07:33 PM
I wouldn't worry overmuch about those weapons. Given your build, attacking with a weapon is a waste of time compared to what you can do with even a 3rd or 4th level spell.

Recitation and mass shield of faith are both outstanding buffs. If you have Spell Compendium, take a look at righteous wrath of the faithful. It owns. Keld Denar mentioned heroes' feast, and he's right on. Use this spell every day.

I'd suggest you take your buffing to the next level now by finding spells that last 1 hour/level or 10 minutes/level, and casting these spells at the beginning of each adventuring day, while people are washing dishes after the heroes' feast. Extend Spell or a metamagic rod of extend is helpful here. Spells like greater magic weapon, freedom of movement, magic vestment, mass resist energy, and mass spell resistance can all be cast beforehand, giving your party formidable defenses without costing you any actions in combat. If there's a druid in your party, healthful rest is another long-duration spell that will allow the druid to get more healing out of using his wildshape.

Tower shield is not included in RSoP, but if you're DM's going to give it to you, hey, take it.

Edit: In combat, you might not think of these as healing or buffing spells, but wind wall, wall of sand, and wall of stone are outstanding for dividing up enemy forces so that half of them are unable to attack your party at any one time. Used well, walls can drastically reduce the amount of damage the party takes by forcing enemies to spend actions bypassing the walls instead of hurting your friends.


The math barriers is very persuasive. For example, suppose your party is being attacked by a mixed group of 4 melee opponents and 4 archers. The archers can deal 10 points of damage per round with a single attack, or 25 with a full attack. You spend a standard action and a 3rd level spell slot to cast wind wall, blocking the archer's line of fire. They respond by taking a move action to reposition and making one attack each as a standard action. It seems at first like you wasted the spell. After all, the archers still shot at you, right? But by forcing them to move, you reduced their total damage inflicted from 100 points to 40 points, avoid 60 hp of injuries.

If the archers are forced to spend more than a single move action maneuvering, then you've prevented even more damage. I doubt you'll get that amount of healing from a 3rd level cure spell.


Edit Edit: Also, if you can summon a monster before battle starts, damage dealt to your summoned monster is damage you don't have to heal. Plus, the monster gives you extra actions in combat for free, and air elementals and bralani eladrins especially have defensive powers like whirlwind, gust of wind, and wind wall that can further diminish enemies' capacity to hurt your friends.

Edit Edit Edit: It's time to upgrade your +Wis, +Con, and +Dex items. Also, enchant that periapt of wisdom to be an amulet of retributive healing, from the MiC. Twice per day, when you heal someone else, it heals you for the same amount. It's like getting a free spell and a free action to cast it. Sell your magic weapons, or trade them to other party members for gear that you'll actually use. Either put a resistance bonus to saves on your cloak, or start casting superior resistance on yourself every day.

KingoftheTrees
2010-03-24, 07:54 PM
I do actually have access to Spell Compendium, and DO have Righteous Wrath of the Faithful. I use that when I can. A lot of the time when I get around to that, our main tank needs healed. (Our DM likes templates) I looked at Heroes' Feast and it is pretty sweet. I haven't really had any chance to use any of those weapons either, which kinda sucks. But oh well. A guy can dream right? I'm one of the few people in my party with martial weapon prof. And I know the RSoP doesn't really SAY that it gives Tower Shield prof, but he gave it to me anyway. He's more of a lenient DM that wants us to have fun. But then again, if I sold some of those weapons they would be able to get me some sweet swag... Speaking of, do you know of anything specific that would help a divine caster? I can't get rid of my holy symbol, it's sort of a relic in its own right.

Edit: Yeah I should look into upgrading my Wis, Con, and Dex items. Those will come in VERY handy!

jiriku
2010-03-24, 08:03 PM
Reliquary amulet from the MiC. It functions as a holy symbol, and will give you two additional turn undead uses per day. With divine spellpower, you're going to be eating those turn undead uses like popcorn at a movie theater. Oh, I misread you. You can't replace your holy symbol. Hmmm, I'm AFB right now, but about to go home from work. Will post again in 15-20 minutes with some of my favorite cleric goodies.

Edit: Also, if you can get your hands on it, check out Complete Champion. It has a number of killer 4th and 5th level ranged healing spells, some of which spend the recipient's action to activate the healing, instead of yours. Many of them can be pre-cast before entering a dangerous area so that you have healing "in the can" prior to entering a battle. Also check out fortunate fate, available to you when you reach your next level, which is essentially a contingent heal spell you can cast on others. All of these together will free you up to buff that tank so he stops getting hit so much.

KingoftheTrees
2010-03-24, 08:14 PM
I've been reading up on everything Cleric-related since I started playing in this campaign. I think I've read through almost every source imaginable (my DM has everything ever written on PDFs). He has houseruled that I have ALL PHB cleric spells, but anything else I'll either have to research or is given to me as "divine inspiration" each level. There are plenty of good healing spells in CC, that's where I got Turn Anathema. I think I remember reading Fortunate Fate, but I'm not sure I remember what exactly it does.

KingoftheTrees
2010-03-24, 08:19 PM
You're right Jiriku, a lot of cleric spells may not be buff or healing, but they still have plenty of uses. Like, being chased down a stone cavern, and throwing a Wall of Stone in your pursuers' way? And preventing damage truly is just as good, if not better than, healing damage.

ericgrau
2010-03-24, 08:36 PM
A rod of splendor gives you +4 charisma for not much more than the cloak, plus you can summon a massive palatial tent once per week. That would free up your cloak slot for a cloak of charisma. Also try a phylactery of undead turning. If you want to free up your glove slot for something else, you can get a +2 dex ioun stone for 8,000 gold. If you want to be even more of a party medic then get a bajillion level 1-3 scrolls of remove/restore/etc. X obscure effect. Then you'll be ready for whatever may befall them.

For good heals try heal or mass cure light/moderate wounds or whatever high level cure spell you can metamagic. Don't waste a round on lesser heals if you can avoid it. And heals are merely a way to avoid the cost of resurrections; killing enemies to prevent damage is better when you can. Above mentioned buffs are great too.

jiriku
2010-03-25, 12:48 AM
Ugh, wife aggro, didn't get free until she went to sleep. Ah well. 'Tis a gamer's burden to bear.

Gear for a caster cleric: basically, there is very little. Your priorities are basically
1) more spell slots, so you can cast more spells.
2) strong defenses, so you can cast spells to help your friends instead of simply protecting yourself.

To support 1), periapt of wisdom and pearls of power are good. Incense of meditation is nice for boss fights, but expensive.

I know a lot of people who swear by the prayer bead that gives you +4 caster level for ten minutes. They use it at the beginning of the day when preparing their buffs to squeeze an extra +1 out of all those buffs that give you +1/4 levels, and for the improved duration and resistance to dispelling granted by the extra 4 levels. Used in conjunction with divine spellpower, you could be casting your all-day buff spells at CL 20 right now! That +5 greater magic weapon, +5 magic vestment, +5 mass conviction, SR 33 with mass spell resistance.


Incidentally, I forgot to mention it before, but mass conviction is a great spell, and well worth the trouble of learning it separately. However knowing the restrictions you're working under, I'll try to restrict my spell recommendations to PHB spells from now on. Except mass resist energy! OMG, so many good spells in Spell Compendium.


Metamagic rods are nice, although expensive. You're just reaching the level where they become practical. Rods of extend, reach, and chain are useful for a buff-focused caster. Imagine reaching a touch-range buff like shield of faithor protection from evil chainreached onto the party, or chaining a single casting of greater magic weapon onto every weapon carried by ever member of the party.

A belt of battle is a fantastic tool for every character, and a healer no less. You can get an extra move action from it, so you can move up to an ally, then take a full-round action to spontaneously convert a spell into a cure spell. Plus, initiative bonuses are good.

An armband of maximized healing is a great healer's tool. Thrice per day it will maximize a healing spell of 6th level or less. This gets your RSoP class benefit on healing slots that aren't in your domain slots. If you've got to blow an action healing the tank, at least make sure you heal him up to full with one spell.


2) I mentioned defense. A round in which you are healing yourself or trying to undo some negative status effect from yourself is a round in which you are not doing your job, which is to make the party invincible. Thus, you do well to invest in gear that makes you invincible. I mentioned earlier about improving your saves through +resistance bonus items, and +Con, +Dex, and +Wis items. At your level, you could pretty affordably improve all of your saves by +2 to +4 over where they're at now. Ignore items that provide resistance or immunity to fear and poison, since you can protect the whole party from those things with heroes' feast.

How about weapons? I was sorta dismissive about weapons before, but a weapon that provides a passive benefit just for holding or carrying it can be pretty good. Weapons with the defending, eager, warning, or spellstrike enchantments improve your AC, initiative, initiative, and saves vs. spells respectively. All would be of value to you. Going first is especially important as you move into a battefield control role with walls and the like, as you want a chance to rearrange the battlefield before enemies can act.

For your armor, the death ward and displacement enchantments can save you a lot of grief, while the greater healing add-on lets you heal yourself for about 30 twice per day with your swift actions.

Also, let's not neglect gear choices your allies can make. Tanks can add the healing belt quality to their belts of giant strength, and the healing or greater healing quality to their armor. This gives them a way to use their swift actions (which often go unused) to perform some in-combat healing. Sharing the load of healing frees you up to contribute in more active ways, and also creates a ready pool of healing spread among other party members to help you if you're hurt and unable to heal yourself.

Superglucose
2010-03-25, 01:34 AM
*stuff*
If it wouldn't be considered rude by her, I'd make the cleric in my party read this post (and the one before this) three times over. It's basically what I've been trying to explain to her for a long while now. Think you can throw me some core-only options?

jiriku
2010-03-25, 12:49 PM
Sure, there's plenty of great stuff in core.

The basic premise for selecting gear and spells as a buffer/support caster is that actions in battle are a precious thing. You want to get the maximum benefit from every action you perform. This leads us to several conclusions:

1) A piece of gear that provides an always-on benefit similar to one of your spells is superior to the spell, because it doesn't cost a combat action to cast and doesn't eat up a spell slot. Moreover, it can't easily be dispelled. However, money is a factor and sometimes spell slots offer more value than expensive items. This is especially true with magic weapons.
2) A buff spell with a long duration is better than one that lasts rounds/level or minutes/level, because you can cast it before you enter a dangerous area, when it won't cost you a combat action.
3) If you must cast in battle, a spell that helps all of your allies is better than a spell that helps only one ally.
4) If you must cast a single-target spell in battle, a ranged spell is superior to a touch spell, because the touch spell generally costs you a move action to get into position.
5) Single-target touch spells with short durations are worst of all, since they have high costs while offering limited benefits.

So for example, a ring of resistance is a tier 1 choice. Heroes' feast is a tier 2 choice. Mass aidis a tier 3 choice. hold personis a tier 4 choice. Cure serious wounds is a tier 5 choice.

With all that junk in mind, what gear can you find in core? The best gear from a support character's perspective is gear that improves your defenses. This means save bonuses, like ring of resistance, stat bonuses to Dex, Con, and Wis, like amulet of health, armor bonuses, like magic armor and shields, and a miss chance, as provided by cloak of displacement, for example. KingoftheTrees has most of these things already.

FYI KotT, a specific gear/spell recommendation for your build.
You probably have the Sun domain. This means you have fire seeds. This spell is ridiculously effective if used in the holly berry bomb version to turn one of your party members into a suicide bomber. You would do well to arrange energy resistance (fire) or some fire resistant armor so they don't die horribly in that case.

Further, you don't just want this gear on yourself. You should encourage other party members to acquire it too. Even the party tank can improve his +suck Will save with a ring of resistance and a periapt of wisdom+2.

What other kind of gear do you want? Anything that saves you actions is good. In core, there's not much for that, but you can get boots of speed, boots or a helm of teleportation, cape of the mountebank, wings of flying...any sort of movement enhancer is helpful, to ensure that when you must move, you're more likely to get where you're going in one action instead of two. In mid-level games, flight is also a highly effective way to reduce the amount of damage you take, and flight + wind wall completely shuts down many enemies.

For offense, you have little need for magic weapons: even a +5 vorpal sword is less effective for you than flame strike or fire seeds. However, items that give you more spells, like wands, scrolls, staves, and pearls of power, are useful tools. Examples:

You can make a wand of cure light wounds to heal your allies between combats -- it's a great bargain, healing about as much as 15 potions of cure serious wounds for the same gp cost. Plus, if anyone in your party knows Use Magic Device, you can have them carry the wand, so there's always someone around to heal you if damage knocks you unconscious. Wands of endure elements and lesser restoration are also useful, as you rarely need these spells, but when you need them, you typically need to cast 4-6 of them at once.

You can prepare or purchase scrolls with spells that are rarely used but critical to have when they're needed, like neutralize poison, remove blindness, remove curse, restoration, and water breathing. Having these "in the can" enables you to stock your spell slots full of your bread-and-butter everyday spells while still being able to provide solutions when your friends are hit by obscure status effects.

Staves I'm not fond of because of their cost, but if you find one as treasure and it contains spells you want to use, by all means use it.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-25, 01:07 PM
I also suggest after RSoP, take a few more Cleric levels, then dip into BOTH (and thats the secret) Divine Oracle and Contemplative (if you want to take Church Inquisitor for the Inquisition Domain, go nuts) for the Oracle and Thirst or Force (for Magic/Arcane Armor) and go nuts ;'3

KingoftheTrees
2010-03-25, 07:38 PM
I actually didn't have my character sheets on me last night, and forgot to mention that my holy symbol also gives me a constant +3 resistance bonus to my saves. So I'm good on that. Never thought about Greater Magic Weapon or Magic Vestment. And I actually do have a good staff that was given to me by my church for donating a +2 holy greatsword and for building a temple on the Isle of Dread. It has spells like Holy Smite, Heroes' Feast, Daylight, Break Enchantment, and a few others on there (made by the DM).

I'll probably sell some of the weapons I'm not going to use and upgrade a lot of my other items. I was also thinking about the Soulfire enchantment (+4 bonus, Book of Exalted Deeds) since it's a constant version of the Death Ward enchantment. But are there other enchantments I should look into, like Healing and Greater Healing? I know we'll be facing a lot of outsiders at some point, and are going into the Underdark soon. And yes, I do have the Sun Domain. I was thinking about picking up Domain Spontaneity at some point, not sure if I want to go with Sun or Glory though. Belt of Battle looks like a great item, I have a history or rolling poorly for initiative. One of the first things our wizard does is cast Fly, Mass on everyone. One of the feats I picked up (Improved Power, Healing Domain) allows me to cast any healing spell that has a range of Touch at a range of Close. This will keep me well out of any melee combat. I also have wands of Cure Moderate (with Reach Spell) and Cure Critical. I'm pretty much a healing machine. And since I spontaneously cast spells from the Healing Domain, they are affected by the class features that Maximize them (and will later Empower them as well).

I also forgot to mention that I was given another feat for free: Brew Potion. I plan on making a few potions and handing them to the rest of the PCs (except for the Monk, who is exalted/vow of poverty and just achieved Sainthood).

I do have a good few spells from Spell Compendium, and hopefully I'll have many more.

Another question I have is this: If I DO take Domain Spontaneity (Glory), what would be the advantage of casting Gate spontaneously? I'd probably use it more for Holy Smite, Holy Sword, Bolt of Glory (which does d12 damage in Spell Compendium) and Sunbeam.

Also I should probably mention that our DM is using the Craft Point instead of XP method of crafting magic items out of Unearthed Arcana, and he's also going to use this rule for spells with XP components.