PDA

View Full Version : [4e] Houserule: Wizard Cantrips as Powers



Itomon
2010-03-24, 09:15 PM
Here is some suggestion on how turn wizards a little more versatile and "controllers" in combat (specially comparing some at-wills between other controllers' classes). I am no native english speaker, so maybe it might sound wrong below... you can correct me if you find any problem, and suggest changes and improvements on these rules.

edit: the rules below are discarded.

edit: let us try to make it more reasonable. NOTE: these rules should be added to the standard wizard class features (she will still have her 2 usual at-will powers)


Light Wizard Cantrips

Bright
With a hard gesture, you create a brightly explosion focused in your enemy's sight, dazzling it.
At-will * Arcane
Standard Action - Ranged 5
Target: One Creature
Attack: Intelligence + 2 vs. Fortitude
Success: The target's enemies are considered under concealment (-2 penalty to melee and ranged attacks) and the target suffers -5 penalty to Perception check rolls (save ends both). Blind creatures, and creatures who do not see are not affected.
Special: Only one light cantrip may be active at a time. When you use a light cantrip, any other effect previously active ends (including this power's effect).

Eruption of Light
You wave your hands and a light pattern glows under your enemy; fear of the magical power you may evoke, it doges away from the place
Encounter * Arcane, Fear
Minor Action - Ranged 5
Target: One creature that can see
Attack: Intelligence vs. Will
Success: You slide the target 2 squares.


Mage Hands Wizard Cantrips

Aiding Hands
You directly control your spectral hand against one enemy, forbidding it from focus and hindering his movements.
At-will * Arcane
Minor Action - Ranged 5
Effect: The wizard controls the previously conjured/sustained spectral hand so it can attack a creature within reach of the hand (the hand has reach 0, so it must enter in its target's space). You can move the hand 5 squares before attacking with this power.
Attack: Intelligence vs. Reflex
Success: The wizard chooses himself or one ally. The target suffers a -2 bonus to its next attack roll against the chosen character, or -2 to all defenses against the next attack from the chosen character. If the target is no longer within reach of the hand, or if the hand is dismissed, the effect ends. The penalty is lost if not applied until the end of the wizard's next turn.


Prestidigitation Wizard Cantrips

Forged Infection
With the right alchemical reagents, you manipulate a subject's appearance to that of a diseased one, and the enemies near it are forced to get away from a faked contagious.
Encounter * Arcane
Standard Action - Ranged 2
Target: A living creature
Attack: Intelligence vs. Reflex
Success: You can slide the target 2 squares. Make a Secondary Attack.
Secondary Target Each enemy adjacent to the primary target
Secondary Attack: Intelligence vs. Will
Success:You slide the secondary target 1 square; it must not end its move adjacent to the primary target. Creatures immune to fear (and some others according to DM) are not affected.


Ghost Sound Wizard Cantrip

Distracting Noise
The right noise in the exact place and moment takes off the enemy's attention, granting you or an ally the advantage.
Encounter * Arcane, Illusion
Standard Action - Ranged 10
Target: A creature with Intelligence 3+
Attack: Intelligence vs. Will
Success: You can make a Bluff check opposed by the target's Insight check; you add your Intelligence modifier in the Bluff check roll as a power bonus. If you succeed, you or one ally of your choice gains combat advantage agains the enemy until the end of your next turn.

Deafening Whir
You perform swift moves as an orchestra conductor, but all the enemy can listen is a deafening whir.
At-will * Arcane, Illusion
Standard Action - Ranged 10
Target: A creature who can hear
Attack: Intelligence vs. Fortitude
Success: The target is slowed and deafened until the start of your next turn (unable to hear anything, -10 penalty to Perception checks).

HunterOfJello
2010-03-24, 10:36 PM
The entire point of cantrips in d&d is that they're useful magical spells that aren't battleworthy.


If your powers are battleworthy, then they don't really classify as cantrips.

Asbestos
2010-03-24, 10:41 PM
Apparently "At-will" translates to "No Limit" in some areas (Portugal/Brazil?)


Anyway, are these meant as alternative At-Wills (for example instead of taking "Scorching Burst" I take "Bright") or 'free' at-wills that all Wizards get by default?


@Above: 3.x had some rather offensive cantrips.

Kurald Galain
2010-03-25, 04:05 AM
Here is some suggestion on how turn wizards a little more versatile and "controllers" in combat (specially comparing some at-wills between other controllers' classes).
To be honest they don't really need that: wizards are probably the strongest controller in the books.

That said -

"Bright" is not worth the standard action: both Winged Horde and Chilling Cloud are at-will area effects that give a -2 to hit. Also, an at-will shouldn't be defining a new condition like dazzled.

Eruption of Light is a useful power, and should require the wizard to give up one of his existing at-will powers.

Aiding Hands is way too complex. It doesn't fit the 4E philosophy to haev all kinds of limitations like "must be large, must enter the target space" etc. Essentially, you're overthinking this. Also, this is a leader power, not a controller power, and it's too weak to spend a standard action on.

Forced Infection is also too complex. Being alchemical in nature should be fluff, and shouldn't require a rules explanation (the artificer has plenty of powers like that). It is essentially inferior to Thunderwave: requiring two attack rolls and doing no damage is bad for a power.

Distracting Noise, again, is a leader power (not a controller power) and is too weak to spend a standard action on.

And Deafening Whir is also too weak to spend a standard action on. Overall, this is your main issue: 4E runs on action economy; you get only a handful of standard actions per combat (most of which will not be spent on at-will powers anyway), so make sure they're worth it.

Fallbot
2010-03-25, 10:49 AM
^ Agreeing with everything above. Too weak to spend a standard action on, and some of them seem more leadery than controllery.

Kurald Galain
2010-03-25, 11:33 AM
So... I believe the versions below are all workable and reasonably balanced.

Bright (wizard encounter 1)
Standard action - Ranged 10
One creature, int vs fort.
Hit: int mod radiant damage, and the target is blinded until the end of your next turn.

Eruption of Light (wizard encounter 1)
Minor action - Ranged 10, Reliable
One creature, int vs will.
Hit: slide the target an amount of squares equal to your con mod.

Aiding Hands (wizard at-will 1)
Standard action - Melee 1
Special: you must have an active Mage Hand to use this power; this power originates from your Mage Hand.
One creature, int vs ref.
Hit: 1d6 + int mod damage, and the Mage Hand grabs the target, and the target grants combat advantage while grabbed.

Forged Infection (wizard encounter 1)
Standard action - ranged 10 - fear
One creature, int vs fort
Hit: 1d10 + int mod psychic damage, then you slide the target two squares, then you push each enemy adjacent to the target one square away from the target.

Distracting Noise and Deafening Whirl (wizard encounter 1)
Minor action - close burst 2
Each enemy in burst, int vs will
Hit: the target is deafened and grants combat advantage until the end of your next turn.

Swordgleam
2010-03-25, 11:41 AM
Special: you must have an active Mage Hand to use this power; this power originates from your Mage Hand.

That gives me an idea. It might be fun to have a couple of feats that let you originate powers from your mage hand. You'd just have to do it in a way that didn't step on the shaman's toes too much. Maybe only at-wills, or, for more flavor, only force powers.

Itomon
2010-03-25, 11:49 AM
Thank you all for your comments, I'll add some information on why I came to these houserules:

- In my game, we only use the Player's Handbook 1 to build the characters. Except for Thunderwave, other at-will powers seem a little "off hand" on controlling.
- When I mentioned that wizard were a little weak, I was only considering at-will powers. I am sure that above 1st level they are very interesting as controllers, even using only PHB1.

So, these rules should be added to the wizard class - the wizard will have 2 t-will power as usual, plus the powers above. That's why these powers do not deal damage even being a standard action - eventually, as a controller, you would give up on damage to do something... else.

Although some powers help allies instead of harming foes, I found it simplier to follow the rules already in PHB1 (Aid Another, Combat Feint) to avoid being too "cheesy" on them. Basically, the wizard can perform these simple actions (Aid Another, Combat Feint) at a distance. (Anyway, how often do you see people using these actions?)

I agree on making the rule simplier, so I'll have to rethink it all from the start. Or, maybe it is not a good idea at all... I count on more comments to make up a good conclusion at that.

Thanks again!

Cheerfully,
Gustavo Ito

Kurald Galain
2010-03-25, 11:53 AM
That gives me an idea. It might be fun to have a couple of feats that let you originate powers from your mage hand. You'd just have to do it in a way that didn't step on the shaman's toes too much. Maybe only at-wills, or, for more flavor, only force powers.

Powerful mage hand (feat)
Prerequisite: wizard, mage hand
Effect: while your mage hand is active, you may spend a minor action at will to attack an enemy adjacent to the mage hand (int v fort). On a hit, the enemy takes force damage equal to your wis mod.

Tie His Shoelaces Together (feat)
Prerequisite: wizard, mage hand
Effect: while your mage hand is active, you may spend a minor action at will to attack an enemy adjacent to the mage hand (int v ref). On a hit, the enemy is slowed until the end of your next turn.

Bigby's Obscene Gesture (feat)
Prerequisite: wizard, mage hand
Effect: while your mage hand is active, you may spend a minor action at will to attack an enemy adjacent to the mage hand (int v will). On a hit, the enemy moves into the square containing the mage hand, and the mage hand is destroyed.

Kurald Galain
2010-03-25, 11:55 AM
- In my game, we only use the Player's Handbook 1 to build the characters. Except for Thunderwave, other at-will powers seem a little "off hand" on controlling.
That is correct, wizard at-wills don't control very well.



So, these rules should be added to the wizard class - the wizard will have 2 t-will power as usual, plus the powers above. That's why these powers do not deal damage even being a standard action - eventually, as a controller, you would give up on damage to do something... else.
Yes, but the point is that the wizard would give up his standard action. If the wizard is to forego using Color Spray or Icy Terrain or even Scorching Burst, the effect he gets instead had better be good (otherwise he'll simply never use it).

Artanis
2010-03-25, 12:11 PM
The entire point of cantrips in d&d is that they're useful magical spells that aren't battleworthy.


If your powers are battleworthy, then they don't really classify as cantrips.

Agreed.

If the connection to the cantrips must be there, at the very least have the powers described (preferably in the fluff text) as what they effectively are, namely "spells that resemble one of the cantrips." For example, have the fluff text call Forged Infection "a Prestidigitation-like power" rather than labeling the power "a Prestidigitation cantrip."



Thank you all for your comments, I'll add some information on why I came to these houserules:

- In my game, we only use the Player's Handbook 1 to build the characters. Except for Thunderwave, other at-will powers seem a little "off hand" on controlling.
- When I mentioned that wizard were a little weak, I was only considering at-will powers. I am sure that above 1st level they are very interesting as controllers, even using only PHB1.

So, these rules should be added to the wizard class - the wizard will have 2 t-will power as usual, plus the powers above. That's why these powers do not deal damage even being a standard action - eventually, as a controller, you would give up on damage to do something... else.

Although some powers help allies instead of harming foes, I found it simplier to follow the rules already in PHB1 (Aid Another, Combat Feint) to avoid being too "cheesy" on them. Basically, the wizard can perform these simple actions (Aid Another, Combat Feint) at a distance. (Anyway, how often do you see people using these actions?)

I agree on making the rule simplier, so I'll have to rethink it all from the start. Or, maybe it is not a good idea at all... I count on more comments to make up a good conclusion at that.

Thanks again!

Cheerfully,
Gustavo Ito
In a way, the Wizard has one of the stronger batches of at-will selections due to the sheer variety available. Even if they aren't the strongest on a power-by-power basis, being able to set up your character however you want (as opposed to, say, the Ranger's "take Twin Strike and the other doesn't really matter"* deal) is damned nice to have.

If all you want is to give Wizards extra ways to do things like Feint and Aid Another, I think Swordgleam has the right idea in that this'd work well as feats rather than powers, and K.G. gave some pretty good examples of such.



*Yes, yes, the other powers are pretty useful at times, especially the new one in MP2 whose name I have to go look up Throw and Stab. But seriously, how often do you really use something other than Twin Strike? :smallwink:

Swordgleam
2010-03-25, 01:04 PM
Powerful mage hand (feat)
Prerequisite: wizard, mage hand
Effect: while your mage hand is active, you may spend a minor action at will to attack an enemy adjacent to the mage hand (int v fort). On a hit, the enemy takes force damage equal to your wis mod.


I believe the proper name for this feat is "Bigby's BtchSlap." I like all of them!

Yakk
2010-03-25, 03:11 PM
You could just boost the wizard at-wills.

Ie, here is a beefed-up magic missile:

Magic Missile: add Push 1. Change damage to "2d4+Int (increased to 4d4+Int at level 21), or 1d4+Int and do a secondary attack.
Secondary Target: One target different than the primary. Increase to two at level 11, and three at level 21.
Secondary Attack: Int vs Reflex
Secondary Damage: 1d4+Int and Push 1

This gives you push-control, and an option to attack many targets (note that the secondary attacks only go off if you hit with the first).

Ray of Cold:
Hit: d6+Int damage, and Target, and all enemies providing cover against this attack are slowed

This gives you mass-slowing abilities at-will.

Cloud of Daggers:
Area: Two adjacent squares
(note: still targets only 1 creature with the attack)

It was already the most controller-y of the powers. It making 2 squares dangerous to enter/be in is a significant bonus.

Alternatively, you could have the cloud lasting until the end of your next turn, and adding a sustain: minor to it.

Itomon
2010-03-25, 07:10 PM
You could just boost the wizard at-wills.

I did that already, but I was trying to find a way to do it without messing too much with the rules. I updated the cantrips powers, too, and I'll share your rules about boosting at-will wizard powers as well, they are very reasonable and cool.

Well, i think the cantrips powers are just a bad idea. I'll find another way to put wizards more into "controlling every round" with some idea.

Thanks guys! You rocks on the rules. ^^

Cheerfully
Ito Gustavo

Itomon
2010-03-26, 01:48 PM
What about that: is this too cheesy?


Every time a Wizard uses an At-Will Power, she may chooses to lose 1 die of damage to add one of the following effects:

* Slide the target 1
* Apply a -2 penalty to target's attack rolls until the end of the wizard's next turn.
* Make an additional attack against one single target that is within power's range and at 2 squares from the original attack space. Only ranged or area attacks can provide this benefit.

examples:

* A wizard using Ray of Frost may, instead dealing [1d6+Int mod] damage and slow the target until the end of the wizard's next turn, deal [Int mod] damage and slow the target, thus slide the target 1 square.
* A wizard using Thunderwave may, instead dealing [1d6+Int mod] damage and push the target [Wis mod] squares, deal [Int mod] damage and push [Wis mod] squares, and also apply -2 penalty to targets' attack rolls until the end of the wizard's next turn. (You cannot choose different benefits for each target, the change applies to every one you hit).
* A wizard using Scorching Burst may, instead dealing [1d6+Int mod] damage in burst 1, deal [Int mod] damage and make an additional attack against a creature within 10 squares of the wizard and that is 2 squares from the burst center. If she succeeds the additional attack also deals [Int mod] damage.

other examples:

* A wizard using Magic Missles may, instead dealing [2d4+Int mod] damage, deal [1d4+Int mod] and slide the target 1, or deal [Int mod] and slide the target 2, or deal [Int mod] and slide the target 1 and apply a -2 penalty to the target's attack rolls until the end of the wizard's next turn.
* A wizard using Magic Missles may, instead dealing [2d4+Int mod] damange, deal [1d4+Int mod] and make an additional attack against a creature within 2 squares from the original target - the damage is the same for both.
* A wizard using Magic Missles may, instead dealing [2d4+Int mod] damange, deal [Int mod] and slide the target 1, and also make an additional attack against a creature within 2 squares from the original target - on a hit, she deals [Int mod] and slide the target 1, too.
*A wizard using Cloud of Daggers can, instead dealing [1d6+Int mod] damage, make one additional attack against the creatures in another square within reach, and that is 2 squares (or less) from the original targeted square. Both squares are filled with daggers that deals [Wis mod] until the end of the next turn, but the attack rolls deal only [Int mod] damage on a hit. The wizard can end both clouds earlier with a minor action

When the wizard has more dies of damage, he can sacrifice one or more damage dies to apply these benefits.

Swordgleam
2010-03-26, 01:52 PM
Mechanical implications or imbalances aside, all I can see when I look at that is the dawning nightmare of a relatively new player attempting to decide which power and rider to use every turn.

Though obviously most newbies aren't played with homebrew from forums.

Itomon
2010-03-26, 05:53 PM
what is a "rider"? I didn't get it.

Anyway, I realize that it is out of place too. Thanks for commenting anyway

Cheerfully.
Gustavo Ito (the non-english speaker rule-messer)

Kurald Galain
2010-03-26, 06:32 PM
What about that: is this too cheesy?
No, it's not too cheesy, but you seem to be making it a bit too complicated.

A simpler way would be to simply allow Phantom Bolt and Chilling Cloud as at-wills; they come from another source book but are almost precisely what your first two options do. The third option is what the Enlarge Spell feat does.

Simply put, if you think the player's handbook doesn't give enough options (and frankly, for certain classes it doesn't; although wizards are really fine except for their at-wills) then use more sourcebooks. That's what they're there for.

Itomon
2010-03-26, 07:00 PM
...use more sourcebooks. That's what they're there for.I just feel sorry for things that will not be used just because they... don't fit.

I also do not like other books too much, they end creating more things than really needed. But well, I'm doing the same, ain't I? =D

Thanks anyway. I think the houserules will only be needed if the players feel the same need that I am feeling.

I've learned a lot here, I really thank you all!

Best Regards
Gustavo

CorvidMP
2010-03-27, 06:25 AM
Don't complain about a lack of options and then deliberately and arbitrarily limit your options...thats just silly.

Itomon
2010-03-28, 11:06 AM
Don't complain about a lack of options and then deliberately and arbitrarily limit your options...thats just silly.You are correct. I apologize.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _

Anyway, just to not discard all the work there, here are a new try. Add the following text in Cantrips Wizard Class Feature (PHB1):

Wizard Cantrip Mastery

The wizard may specialize in one of her basic cantrips, making the best of them in excange for the others' formula. Choose light, mage hand, prestidigitation or ghost sound to master; if you do, the other cantrips as stated in PHB1 are now encounter powers, not at-will powers.

As a benefit, you gain additional powers (one at-will and one encounter) according to the choice made.


Light Wizard Cantrips

Bright Light
With a hard gesture, you create a brightly explosion focused in your enemy's sight, dazzling it.
At-will * Arcane, Implement
Standard Action - Ranged 5
Target: One Creature
Attack: Intelligence vs. Fortitude
Success: The target's enemies are under concealment (save ends). Blind creatures, and creatures who do not see are not affected.
Special: Only one light cantrip may be active at a time. When you use a light cantrip, any other effect previously active ends (including this power's effect previously active).

Shining Shield
The wizard's wit shines in combat - a humble cantrip might block a true strike.
Encounter * Arcane, Implement, Radiant
Immediate Interrupt - Ranged 5
Trigger: You are attacked by a creature within reach
Target: The attacking creature
Attack: Intelligence vs. Fortitude
Success: 1d6 + Intelligence modifier radiant damage, and the target is blind until the start of your next turn.
Miss: No damage or blindness, but you instead apply -2 penalty to the triggering attack roll.
Special: This is a light cantrip, and using it ends any other effect previously active (including bright light's effect).


Mage Hands Wizard Cantrips[/b]

Helpful Hand
You directly control your spectral to perform dextrous tasks at a distance.
At-will * Arcane
Standard Action - Ranged 5
Special: The wizard must have a mage hand active to use this power.
Effect: The wizard can perform one of the following actions through her spectral hand: aid another, bull rush, grab, move a grabbed creature. Any rolls required to perform this action is made by the wizard, considering her abilites and bonuses, but the size and reach consider the spectral hand (the spectral hand is Tiny and has reach 0, so it must enter in its target's space).
In the same turn this power was used, you may sustain the mage hand power as a free action.

Cooperative Hands
Your master the mage hand cantrip so that you can conjure and control a second spectral hand, at the same time.
At-will * Arcane, Conjuration
Minor Action - Ranged 5
Special: The wizard must have a mage hand active to use this power.
Effect: The wizard conjures a second spectral hand in a square within reach (it may be occupied). The second spectral hand can act separatedly (as per mage hand cantrip power or helpful hand power), or aid the previously conjured spectral hand in one single task. When together, you receive a +2 circunstance bonus to all checks/rolls they perform, and you can consider them as being of Small size (for purposes of targeting with bull rush or grab actions).
As one single move action, you can move both hands 5 squares within reach, to whatever direction each.
Sustain minor: the second spectral hand lasts until the end of your next turn. To sustain both hands, you may need another action for the original hand (another minor action, as mage hand stated; or a free action if helpful hand was used during this turn).


Prestidigitation Wizard Cantrips

Extreme Temperature
You learned to maximize your heat/cold alteration effects, to affect even a living creature.
At-will * Arcane, Implement, Morph
Standard Action - Ranged 2
Target: One Creature
Attack: Intelligence vs. Fortitude
Success: Choose cold or fire damage. The target gains vulnerability 5 against chosen damage type, and is slowed until the end of your next turn.

Forged Infection
With alchemy secrets, you empower the pimple popping trick to alter one's appearance to that of a diseased one, and the enemies near it are forced to get away from a faked contagious.
Encounter * Arcane, Fear, Implement
Standard Action - Ranged 2
Target: A living creature
Attack: Intelligence vs. Reflex
Success: The wizard throws an alchemical mixture on the target, dealing 1d6 + Intelligence modifier damage and making it looks somehow infected (save ends both). Make a Secondary Attack.
Secondary Target Each enemy adjacent to the primary target
Secondary Attack: Intelligence vs. Will
Success: You push the target 1 square away from primary target
Special: Each other time the primary target is dealt damage with this power, you can make another secondary attack.


Ghost Sound Wizard Cantrip

Deafening Whir
You perform swift moves as an orchestra conductor, but all the enemy can listen is a deafening whir.
At-will * Arcane, Illusion, Implement
Standard Action - Ranged 10
Target: A creature that can hear
Attack: Intelligence vs. Fortitude
Success: The target has -2 penalty to AC and Reflex defenses, and is deafened until the start of your next turn (unable to hear anything, -10 penalty to Perception checks).

Ghostly Manipulation
Ghostly sounds haunt your target while your magic sneaks into its mind, leading it to a deadly mistake.
Encounter * Arcane, Charm, Illusion, Implement
Standard Action - Ranged 10
Target: A creature that can hear
Attack: Intelligence vs. Will
Success: You make a Bluff check opposed by the target's Insight check. If you succeed, the target is dominated by you until the start of your turn; if the target wins, the target is dazed until the start of your next turn instead.