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Beelzebub1111
2010-03-25, 06:51 AM
I have a problem. Whenever I try to run a pre-generated module like from out of dragon magazine, My players won't even go for it unless they ask for 3-5 times the ammount of gold given as a base reward! (Even After I modify it so that 6 people can get the reward instead of 4) It's very annoying since I can't run the module without them, and I really don't have anything else planed. They simply won't DO anything unless I offer them a huge monetary reward, I give them a promise of treasure and loot, but they still refuse any job that doesn't pay up front. They also like half payment in advance and consistantly asked to "Be equiped" for the encounter, like they think they need more equipment BEFORE they get to the new location.

Again, Like I said, it tends to drive the game to a standstill and Wealth is being broken.

TheYoungKing
2010-03-25, 06:53 AM
Let them go without work then.

A little bit of time doing Profession checks and being turned down by benefactors who have shinier things should teach them a lesson.

That is assuming you can't talk them out of it OOC. If you can't, DM hell in the form of an unemployment line.

TricksyAndFalse
2010-03-25, 07:15 AM
It's very annoying since I can't run the module without them, and I really don't have anything else planned. They simply won't DO anything unless I offer them a huge monetary reward

They have you over a barrel. They know you want to run the module. They know you have nothing planned. They know they can extort these things from you because running the module is important to you.

First, how much does it matter if they have all this wealth and gear? Sure, the rules describe an ideal amount of wealth the players should be getting, but if everyone is having fun, does it matter?

One possibility if the wealth matters, and they want all this payment and gear up front, is to cut the amount of loot present in the rest of the module to balance. They get their payment up front, but the monsters and bad guys have less loot. (If you are playing 3.5, this can be a problem when fighting opponents who are supposed to use the loot they have as gear).

Another possibility is to plan something else. They refuse to help the small town in need unless paid more than the town has in wealth? Okay, fast-forward to when the town is wiped off the map by the threat. This might spur some adventure ideas. Or, plan nothing and let them clown around for a few hours. When they get bored, they will go find trouble.

The last thing I have to say: You mention this happens when you try to run a pre-genned module. Does this not happen when you run something of your own making? If the problem doesn't exist for your home-brewed adventures, just run those. Or, don't tell your players it's a pre-genned module. If you've only tried pre-genned modules, then I definitely suggest trying out the 'plan something else/let them find their own trouble' approach. Yeah, you'll have to wing something, but it sounds like your players will enjoy seeing you sweat, and I think you'll find it rewarding too.

Soonerdj
2010-03-25, 07:18 AM
This can be solved with 5 words:

Metal Equipment and Rust Monsters :P

hewhosaysfish
2010-03-25, 07:24 AM
This can be solved with 5 words:

Metal Equipment and Rust MonstersDragons :P

Thinking too small :smalltongue:

Duskranger
2010-03-25, 07:25 AM
Give them everything they want, and put down a big ambush. Than steal everything, and give them no reward at all except for what they killed (one bandit had a rusty longsword and stuff :P)

Vangor
2010-03-25, 07:30 AM
They simply won't DO anything unless I offer them a huge monetary reward, I give them a promise of treasure and loot, but they still refuse any job that doesn't pay up front. They also like half payment in advance and consistantly asked to "Be equiped" for the encounter, like they think they need more equipment BEFORE they get to the new location.

Simple solution for people who want to get rerolls on statistics, who want 32+ point buys, who want more starting gold, who want lax interpretations of rules, who want special provisions for their characters, and so forth is to adjust the campaign accordingly. Sure, if they want 15,000 gold immediately to outfit themselves and 15,000 gold after they have cleared a kobold den, they need to be prepared to spend most of this on chugging potions, using scrolls, expending wands, carrying situational gear, and more. Power is relative, and when you meet someone, or in this case much of a party, who feels the need to be greedy, give them a reality check. People more powerful and more resourceful than they exist, and they are in the positions they are from hunting down and destroying people who may threaten them.

Plus, I would imagine local but extensive thieving guilds would know if such a vast amount of money or resources changed hands, and might want to procure a small amount. The campaign may be premade, but you can add and change all you want.

May I ask the level of your players? When my party all around 17 became cocky upon expanding to 8 people who were devastating dragons and such, I unleashed a 7 Cleric/10 Ghost-Faced Killer on them. Nothing brings you back to reality faster than deciding which of you three fortunately only has to carry one body.

electricbee
2010-03-25, 07:32 AM
Introduce a rival group of NPC adventurers.

Send them off to do the adventure for the asking price. Let the players actually miss out on a few opportunities due to the rivals (who don't need the players help). Sucks to still be in town haggling while the Heroes come back and get the reward in front of you.

Beelzebub1111
2010-03-25, 07:40 AM
The last thing I have to say: You mention this happens when you try to run a pre-genned module. Does this not happen when you run something of your own making? If the problem doesn't exist for your home-brewed adventures, just run those. Or, don't tell your players it's a pre-genned module. If you've only tried pre-genned modules, then I definitely suggest trying out the 'plan something else/let them find their own trouble' approach. Yeah, you'll have to wing something, but it sounds like your players will enjoy seeing you sweat, and I think you'll find it rewarding too.
I tend to avoid "service sellers" for my home-brewed adventures. I make it clear that the treasure IS the adventure. Like I said, greed is the average party's biggest motivator.



May I ask the level of your players? When my party all around 17 became cocky upon expanding to 8 people who were devastating dragons and such, I unleashed a 7 Cleric/10 Ghost-Faced Killer on them. Nothing brings you back to reality faster than deciding which of you three fortunately only has to carry one body.

They are 4 of them at level four 3 at level 3...and because of their shenanagins (and my underestimation of some potential from gambling), they have +1 keen Falchion, the warforged has +4 adamantine armor plates, and...well, you get the picture.

Thanks for the advice, I'll try to plan more for them.

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-25, 08:05 AM
I tend to avoid "service sellers" for my home-brewed adventures. I make it clear that the treasure IS the adventure. Like I said, greed is the average party's biggest motivator.



They are 4 of them at level four 3 at level 3...and because of their shenanagins (and my underestimation of some potential from gambling), they have +1 keen Falchion, the warforged has +4 adamantine armor plates, and...well, you get the picture.

Thanks for the advice, I'll try to plan more for them.

+4 armor plates?!? Why and how did they get that?

Also, What alignment are they? Good characters should still help regardless of whether the person they help can pay. If they refuse to take on a job, say OK, and have town/world/them be destroyed as the BBEG carries out his plans.

SpikeFightwicky
2010-03-25, 08:08 AM
They are 4 of them at level four 3 at level 3...and because of their shenanagins (and my underestimation of some potential from gambling), they have +1 keen Falchion, the warforged has +4 adamantine armor plates, and...well, you get the picture.

Thanks for the advice, I'll try to plan more for them.

:smallconfused:
I think you shoul remember that you are, in fact, the DM, and can mitigate shenanigans (preferably in an in-game realistic way). Also, where are your PCs gambling? D&D's Monte Carlo? What do the players do when the money runs out? Or when the person offering the reward for whatever quest has no more money to offer?

Rather than take everything away from your players, you can assume word got out that they're wealthy, and up the price of everything accordingly. How much for this potion of cure moderate wounds? -> for you? 2000 gold.

Vangor
2010-03-25, 08:10 AM
They are 4 of them at level four 3 at level 3...and because of their shenanagins (and my underestimation of some potential from gambling), they have +1 keen Falchion, the warforged has +4 adamantine armor plates, and...well, you get the picture.

Undead, Oozes, and Barbarian Orcs. Keen means nothing against monsters you cannot crit, and having creatures who will blow Rage and charge heedlessly effectively negates armor. Plus, Oozes are often acidic...enjoy.

As well, someone mentioned their alignment, any with restrictions or who would really not want to shift? If the cleric has a deity, if a paladin exists, if any have exalted feats, potentially even if any is a monk, they really need to stop haggling and wanting gold. This is not evil, but this is not good, and accepting a reward does not diminish being good, but refusing a reward is a good act while being dissatisfied with a reward is somewhat evil from a selfish aspect.

Just_Ice
2010-03-25, 08:13 AM
Two words: Gold elemental

Duskranger
2010-03-25, 08:15 AM
That's why there is a special clausule in the DMG for this kind of things it's called DM overrules. And nothing says that better than a meteorswarm from a lvl 18 wizard.

Or a high level roque that steals even the armorplates of the Warforged (somehow, your the boss).

Rumor has it that dragons are also greedy .....

Leon
2010-03-25, 08:25 AM
Pay them in Fools gold/counterfeit coins/foreign currency etc up front and then have them earn the real stuff after they get burned on the fake/problematic

Emmerask
2010-03-25, 08:29 AM
Make the world not pc centered if they refuse to do the job let other adventurers do it and go into great detail how they are praised by the locals when they return triumphant. A whole week of festivities, official buildings and streets named after them, statues build at the central plaza.

And if they leave town have bards carry the word of those awesome adventurers to every tavern they visit and go again into great detail how these mighty warriors and cunning wizards destroyed the evil they refused to fight :smallbiggrin:

Oh and after that the next module is of course not balanced for their current level but the level they would have had if they would not be greedy bastards and they will die... oh well sucks to be them.

Donīt get me wrong a bit of haggling for the reward is absolutely fine and should in fact be encouraged but using metagame reasons to haggle ie pay us 1000000000000000 gp because without us there is no adventure is NOT fine.

bosssmiley
2010-03-25, 08:31 AM
I have a problem. Whenever I try to run a pre-generated module like from out of dragon magazine, My players won't even go for it unless they ask for 3-5 times the ammount of gold given as a base reward! (Even After I modify it so that 6 people can get the reward instead of 4) It's very annoying since I can't run the module without them, and I really don't have anything else planed. They simply won't DO anything unless I offer them a huge monetary reward, I give them a promise of treasure and loot, but they still refuse any job that doesn't pay up front. They also like half payment in advance and consistently asked to "Be equipped" for the encounter, like they think they need more equipment BEFORE they get to the new location.

Pushy little toads, ain't they? You ought to remind them that heist capers do not work that way (http://superheronecromancer.blogspot.com/2009/04/great-dungeon-caper_19.html).

If the players want to play hardball over pay and conditions before they will partake of the prepared content, then you just have to play it back. Hackmaster (and WFRP) have entire sections on ways to keep the PCs poor and hungry. The DM giveth; the DM taketh away. :smallwink:


Again, Like I said, it tends to drive the game to a standstill and Wealth is being broken.

Excess wealth is especially easy to fix: taxes. Tax evasion, smuggling, and the fallout therefrom can be the basis of entire campaigns.

Beelzebub1111
2010-03-25, 08:37 AM
:smallconfused:
I think you shoul remember that you are, in fact, the DM, and can mitigate shenanigans (preferably in an in-game realistic way). Also, where are your PCs gambling? D&D's Monte Carlo? What do the players do when the money runs out? Or when the person offering the reward for whatever quest has no more money to offer?
There was an arena fight last level, we worked out odds for the matches, and stupidly I set the maximum bet to 500 gold, when I should have set it to one hundred, it's a bit late to go back now, though.

Emmerask
2010-03-25, 08:44 AM
There was an arena fight last level, we worked out odds for the matches, and stupidly I set the maximum bet to 500 gold, when I should have set it to one hundred, it's a bit late to go back now, though.

All the more wealth for the local thieves guild :smallbiggrin:

/edit

Which brings me to another point donīt let them adventure for money, make it personal thieves stealing all their wealth, the bbeg killing a family member or holding them hostage etc :smallwink:

Killer Angel
2010-03-25, 08:46 AM
I have a problem. Whenever I try to run a pre-generated module like from out of dragon magazine,
(snip)
Again, Like I said, it tends to drive the game to a standstill and Wealth is being broken.

and, exactly what were the pre-generated CR of the enemies? :smallcool:
If you cannot set the thing with the players, then the solution is simple: The PCs have more money-power? Increase the challenges accordingly.

Anterean
2010-03-25, 08:52 AM
Introduce a rival group of NPC adventurers.

Send them off to do the adventure for the asking price. Let the players actually miss out on a few opportunities due to the rivals (who don't need the players help). Sucks to still be in town haggling while the Heroes come back and get the reward in front of you.

This is a brilliant idea.

I think I might actually do that, even though I donīt have this problem with my players.
Somehow I feel it would add to the world

Emmerask
2010-03-25, 08:57 AM
This is a brilliant idea.

I think I might actually do that, even though I donīt have this problem with my players.
Somehow I feel it would add to the world

Coban (the barbarian) and his legion of six is one of the groups I often have running around in my campaigns ^^
Yes it does add to the gameworld in my opinion :smallsmile:

Mongoose87
2010-03-25, 09:06 AM
Never underestimate the power of destroying everything they own.

RebelRogue
2010-03-25, 09:08 AM
Subtract from the treasure they will find during the adventure. And as suggested above, add a few rust monster here and there :smallbiggrin:

denthor
2010-03-25, 09:23 AM
years ago there was a little known clause in the DMG that went something like this. On rare occasions a summoning spell could transport a group of adventures anywhere in the universe.

What happens if they are "summoned" to another plane they find themselves in a room with three dead two mages one cleric. The last living breath is "how did this happen?" "Who are you?"

Now for the problem they are in a broken summoning circle so they can get out and move around what do they do they have nothing but ordinary clothes, no weapons, no magic just skill. They have no patron the room leads to wilderness do they sit there and die or do they use there skills to survive?

Two hundred feet in one(but any) direction (to make sure they find it) are signs of war a dead party that has wooden fighting equipment, no armor odds and ends for other equipment nothing special. They died fighting each other and they are clearly on the same side. Same symbols of worship same type of clothing etc. Wooden weapons do what ever normal weapons do minus 2 so a dagger 1d4-2.

You have nothing else planed they can sit in the room with out food, water or anything else and die or adventure. There choice.

Yes I am an a $$ of a DM but they are worse as players.

Mastikator
2010-03-25, 09:28 AM
Tell them that their demands are unreasonable and it's irrational of them. Be calm and collected. If they don't immediately agree then tell them to find a new DM.

Sounds to me like you have an entire group of people who sabotage the game. Tell them that it in fact sabotages the game, and that it's pointless. Be strong and don't yield. You can find another group in another time.
If they agree then you've got what you wanted, if they don't then it was hopeless from the start. But that's a risk you're gonna have to weigh against letting them have more than they deserve.

AtwasAwamps
2010-03-25, 09:32 AM
Fire.

It always works.

Grommen
2010-03-25, 09:34 AM
You need the traveling merchants known and Dewy, Cheetem, How, and Often.

FANTASTIC items, FANTASTIC prices.....All cursed.:smallbiggrin:

See if the party is greedy and demanding up front pay (actually not a bad option in my campaigns but you might have honest people in yours), and loads of it or they will not save the village from pending doom. We can then generaly assume that they are also greedy bastards. So when they see a wagon filled with +5 Holey, dancing, vorporal, luck blades for a new low price. Well...Who can say no to that... Just because it is a cursed back biter, and the matching gauntlets are actually Gauntlets of fumbling. Might not want to mention this to them right away though. At least till the wagon is out of site.

Now they might see that coming so you need to mix in a lot of mundain slightly broken stuff too. Like the Chainmail of Disappearance. "O sure it will never need cleaning after a battle. We have put special enchantments on to protect it from any scratch." Just never mention that the reason it is so pretty is that before a battle it "Disappears" into another dimension to stay safe :smallfrown:

Ya it's a one time only DM dirty trick, cause they will never trust you again. But hey it will keep them honest.

Kylarra
2010-03-25, 09:34 AM
I think it's time for a DM-player chat OOC.

After that be prepared to either heavily tweak the module or create your own campaign.

Manga Shoggoth
2010-03-25, 09:35 AM
There was an arena fight last level, we worked out odds for the matches, and stupidly I set the maximum bet to 500 gold, when I should have set it to one hundred, it's a bit late to go back now, though.

You could always say that there were accusations of game rigging and that the PCs have been implicated/framed for them. Then the quest can become their punishment for the alleged crime.

Ernir
2010-03-25, 09:38 AM
Hmm. Mostly it has been said before... but I see the problem as twofold. One, they won't take your adventures. Two, they're too wealthy.

One. I suggest installing actual consequences for turning down quests.
Example: Last month, they decided to not investigate when rumours of Shadows creeping around in Poor Penniless Village started circling. Today, Poor Penniless Village has been overrun, and Shadows are going berserk across the country - including in the stronghold of our "heroes". Roll for initiative.
Doesn't make them any more likely to accept the pre-made adventures... but there's not much you can do to make players do anything (except for physically threatening them with hot pokers, but that's not recommended.).


Two. Much easier to deal with. Rust Monsters, Rust Dragons, Sundering Barbarians and Rogues with Sleight of Hand. A bit (not too much, or it becomes obvious) of that, and then just yoink up the difficulty of the encounters to make up for the rest. That Warforged has +4 plating? Replace the printed Human Fighter guards with Orc Barbarian guards. Their Str is 8 higher, giving them +4 to hit. Yay, bonus not-so-obviously negated.

Deth Muncher
2010-03-25, 10:02 AM
C'mon guys, I think the final option here is simple:

Have Sir Patrick Stewart Mordenkainen swoop down from the sky, Disjoin all of their equipment and yell "Sir Patrick Stewart Mordenkainen, AWAAAAAAAAY!" and woosh off superhero style.

Emmerask
2010-03-25, 10:04 AM
C'mon guys, I think the final option here is simple:

Have Sir Patrick Stewart Mordenkainen swoop down from the sky, Disjoin all of their equipment and yell "Sir Patrick Stewart Mordenkainen, AWAAAAAAAAY!" and woosh off superhero style.

I like it :smallbiggrin:

taltamir
2010-03-25, 10:09 AM
i really don't see why that is the problem...

Players: We want 6 times the gold reward and and half upfront, and we want to be equipped with magic items...
DM: The king does a spit take with his wine and says "are you guys insane?... this is more then ample reward and if I paid half upfront to every adventurer I would go bankrupt in a week... I have already sent 4 groups today on this same mission and I have interviews set up with 3 more after you leave. Payment is on completion and the amount I specified, if its too much, well you are free to leave".

or
DM: The dirt farmer starts sobbing "please *sob*, I don't have any more money *sniff*, I would have to sell my house to pay you the reward I already promised *sob* please *boohhoo*"

SpikeFightwicky
2010-03-25, 10:10 AM
There was an arena fight last level, we worked out odds for the matches, and stupidly I set the maximum bet to 500 gold, when I should have set it to one hundred, it's a bit late to go back now, though.

Fair enough. Though next time you can try convincingly throwing the fight :smallamused: (Unless the PCs did it themselves)

As mentioned, another alternative is to up the price of merchandise and services (both mundane and magical). Whenever they go to buy something, have the price be a lot higher than usual. In-game, you can assume word got out that the PCs are big spenders (since well... they are) and have people act accordingly. You can even create a gainless feedback loop, where the quest reward 'cash sum' improves the more the PCs spend (from increased tax revenue from all the heavy spending).

Seatbelt
2010-03-25, 10:36 AM
NPC: This is our offer of reward
PCs: We want triple

*diplomacy checks etc*

NPC: I only have X amount of gold!
PCs: Then screw you bub! We dont adventure for cheap-skates!

DM: All right guys. You get 100 XP each for RPing the encounter. That was fun guys! See you next week.

*DM packs up his stuff and leaves*

Railroading should be discouraged. But to a certain extent the party needs to be willing to work with the DM to play the game. If X Y and Z are the adventure hooks, as a player its your job to figure out why your character would want to go on those adventure hooks. If the party refuses all the hooks you have prepared, because they know that without their capitulation nobody gets to play..... then nobody gets to play.

Don't do reballincing. That just encourages negative behavior and you will only have to balance more and more as they continue bad behavior. Random Rust Monsters are all fun and good, but the party is just as likely to call shenanigans on you and complain about DM fiat and how much you suck for taking all their treasure.

When they ask why you're packing up, you just tell them. "You're using OOC metagame tactics to force me to hand you treasure. But this NPC only has this much treasure on him. You refused the adventure, and thats all I have for today. So we're done."

Kylarra
2010-03-25, 11:32 AM
Before you do the above, I'd really recommend talking to your players. I mean, passive-aggressive things like the above sound cute on the internet, but in practice they come off as childish and spiteful and tend to make the eventual resolution, if any, take longer to obtain.

Deth Muncher
2010-03-25, 11:39 AM
Before you do the above, I'd really recommend talking to your players. I mean, passive-aggressive things like the above sound cute on the internet, but in practice they come off as childish and spiteful and tend to make the eventual resolution, if any, take longer to obtain.

Eh, I mean, I think it's something this ridiculous that will get the point across. If you go and do something like this, it's gonna make the players think. "Do we want to go along with the campaign and do what the DM says and just find other ways to get money, aka killing dragons, on the side? Or do we kill the campaign right here because we don't like what he's doing?"

Telonius
2010-03-25, 11:41 AM
Give them their toys. Add 1hd and 2 dex to all future monsters, with no XP bonus to compensate.

Kylarra
2010-03-25, 11:45 AM
Eh, I mean, I think it's something this ridiculous that will get the point across. If you go and do something like this, it's gonna make the players think. "Do we want to go along with the campaign and do what the DM says and just find other ways to get money, aka killing dragons, on the side? Or do we kill the campaign right here because we don't like what he's doing?"I think it's better to let them know that they're killing the campaign in a less PA manner first. If they persist, then sure, go ahead and end the session for the day. Tell them that you'll need to put off playing for some time while you build them a sandbox to play in since they're obviously not interested in playing the module you've provided.

cZak
2010-03-25, 12:15 PM
I think it's better to let them know that they're killing the campaign in a less PA manner first. If they persist, then sure, go ahead and end the session for the day. Tell them that you'll need to put off playing for some time while you build them a sandbox to play in since they're obviously not interested in playing the module you've provided.

Most of the description reminds me of a group of spoiled children presenting ultimatums to get their way.

Explain to them (In game) that it makes no logical sense for triple rewards and pre-expedition, magic item outfitting. If the NpC's had that kind of wealth they would not need the PC's. And (out of game) that they are seriously skewing the balance of the game, and your enjoyment. Do each only ONCE.

Then go the Passive Aggressive route. They refuse to cooperate, just sit back or pack up.
I consider it really disrespectful when players automatically/ vehemently oppose any plot threads to your time and effort to develop interesting scenarios.
Rail-roading is not good, but a DM needs some idea of direction. Game sessions are not just to entertain the players... And just randomly opening MM's for encounters is not entertaining.

Beelzebub1111
2010-03-25, 12:25 PM
I guess part of the problem is that this group is used to playing 2nd edition at level 13-18 when we started this 3.5e game. So going from 8000 each to 3600 total is quite a drop in terms of payment.

Dr Bwaa
2010-03-25, 12:42 PM
Rather than take everything away from your players, you can assume word got out that they're wealthy, and up the price of everything accordingly. How much for this potion of cure moderate wounds? -> for you? 2000 gold.

This. And what someone said about unemployment. Let them spend a while rolling realityProfession checks; that's likely to be a little reminder as to what's reasonable (heh, assuming any of them have any profession skills... if not, I guess it's unskilled labor time!)

Frankly the way I'd do it is probably as follows:

1) NPC: This is a quest. This is how much you'll get at the end, plus whatever you can loot. Any questions?
2) PCs: WE WANT MOAR
3) NPC: This is the price. Take it or leave it.
4) PCs: WE LEAVE IT
5) GOTO: 1

After they waste a whole session (or maybe less!) getting turned down for being unreasonable, they may decide to come around to actually just dealing with it, doing the quest, and leveling up if they want to be worth more to hire. Remember, other adventuring parties presumably exist, especially at these low levels, who are perfectly willing to do the quest at the given rate, so just let these NPC adventurers have it and leave the PCs to stew. There's no reason you can't make these negotiations entertaining; you still want to have fun, but you should make it clear that they're not getting any more overpayments for something any 3rd-level party can do.

Other (pretty reasonable) solution:
Just fight them! Don't make them have to go to a dungeon; do violence to them while they sleep! Not necessarily literally; just bring battles to them instead of letting them set their own terms. Or have someone steal their items and they have to chase this NPC through whatever dungeon you want to get them back. In general, just be proactive instead of reactive, and you'll probably have more success.

EDIT: The "proactive vs reactive" advice goes for any strategy you use (in D&D and in life, frankly).

Stubbed Tongue
2010-03-25, 12:46 PM
NPC: This is our offer of reward
PCs: We want triple

*diplomacy checks etc*

NPC: I only have X amount of gold!
PCs: Then screw you bub! We dont adventure for cheap-skates!

DM: All right guys. You get 100 XP each for RPing the encounter. That was fun guys! See you next week.

*DM packs up his stuff and leaves*

Railroading should be discouraged. But to a certain extent the party needs to be willing to work with the DM to play the game. If X Y and Z are the adventure hooks, as a player its your job to figure out why your character would want to go on those adventure hooks. If the party refuses all the hooks you have prepared, because they know that without their capitulation nobody gets to play..... then nobody gets to play.

Don't do reballincing. That just encourages negative behavior and you will only have to balance more and more as they continue bad behavior. Random Rust Monsters are all fun and good, but the party is just as likely to call shenanigans on you and complain about DM fiat and how much you suck for taking all their treasure.

When they ask why you're packing up, you just tell them. "You're using OOC metagame tactics to force me to hand you treasure. But this NPC only has this much treasure on him. You refused the adventure, and thats all I have for today. So we're done."

This!

Also add that when a party has the ability and opportunity to stop evil and DO not they begin to drift more towards evil (if at least in the eyes of the peasants and inn keepers).

Irreverent Fool
2010-03-25, 01:41 PM
NPC: This is our offer of reward
PCs: We want triple

*diplomacy checks etc*

NPC: I only have X amount of gold!
PCs: Then screw you bub! We dont adventure for cheap-skates!

DM: All right guys. You get 100 XP each for RPing the encounter. That was fun guys! See you next week.

*DM packs up his stuff and leaves*

....

I agree with this tactic to an extent, but it's not going to end well.

Honestly, I have the opposite problem. I run a lot of modules when I have classes and work on homebrewed stuff when I don't. Most modules include a bit about what the NPC/etc will offer if pressed for a greater reward. My players rarely argue for a better one or even ask the questions they should in order to get more information. I blame video games.

Someone above mentioned consequences. This can be great fun. My players' characters once released a pair of wraiths from a tower in which they'd been trapped. Rather than staying to fight, they fled due to injury and a fear they wouldn't be able to finish off the wraiths without losing a man or two. Which is fine. I encourage self-preservation. However, the wraiths escaped and are currently spreading despair and annihilating small towns.

In another, they riled a Red Dragon and fled, leading to the dragon tracking them on their travels and burning/pillaging every town they visited.

Consequences to the players' actions can effectively let the characters do you campaign-planning work for you and go a long way toward making the world feel more persistent, as well as making the players feel as though their actions matter.

In other words: Roll with it. Let them spread infamy rather than fame.

obnoxious
sig

Giggling Ghast
2010-03-25, 01:45 PM
Call their bluff. Refuse. Then go play video games.

Zeful
2010-03-25, 02:02 PM
There are many ways to handle this. And you should try the most reasonable first.

1) Sit them down and explain how the game expects the to make money.

a) If the words "wish economy" come out of their mouths as a response, leave, you won't make them see reason.
2) Roleplay it. They want more money, have them ask the NPCs. If they fail to convince him, tough.

a) If you have to, don't tell them the reward, especially if it's dangerous and the "last guys" are presumed dead.
b) If they still refuse, take out a portable game device and start playing it. If they protest fall right back into character with "Back so soon, I thought this job was beneath you."
3) If they somehow legitimately convince you that they need the money, start creating things that they need to pay upkeep for (castles and such).

a) If they don't use the money on that, you have every right to send monsters capable of destroying their equipment after them. But only destroy their equipment, leave the gold alone, then point out that they can buy new stuff with their exorbitant amounts of money

Honestly though, I'd make one of them DM for a couple of sessions.

denthor
2010-03-25, 02:06 PM
What are the alignments and classes if they are goods point that out. If neutrals then motivate them by selfish means.

IF they are EVILS then have people refuse to help them no wandering Paladins walk by and help. Make sure they get a reputation for there actions or inactions.

Neutrals only get help every so often from goods, Evils get no help from goods, neutrals or evils which are pay to play type people and charge more since there services are needed so badly.

Goods do not hire them unless they are forced to do something.

Start changing alignments based on actions.

Tyndmyr
2010-03-25, 02:17 PM
I tend towards a somewhat sandbox styled game. IE, the quest giver doesn't magically have six times the payment because the players whine about it. They have what they have, you can try to diplomacy them for more(up to the limit of what they have...and it's not ridiculous, generally. There's a reason they hire people).

If the party turns down everything, it's up to the party to amuse themselves. I typically provide a number of plot hooks, some more obvious than others. If they want to go shopping, try crafting, etc, they can go nuts. Eventually, they'll get bored and go back to looking for stuff to kill.

A fun option is to have non-monetary rewards. Lands, titles, etc. Wealth is power, sure, but it's not the only way to get power. As a reward, have them offered a castle that recently became available. Have the NPC not bother with details such as what horrible events made it become available, and what condition said castle is in. This gives you a follow on quest too, as they attempt to take possession of their new lands.

jiriku
2010-03-25, 02:50 PM
OP, quite frankly most of the advice you're getting in this thread is just godawful. Here's hoping that you're a smart guy and you've already noticed. Maybe I can give you some suggestions that WON'T implode your game or make your friends yell at you for being a douchebag.

Assumptions:
1.) Your players don't like hiring on as mercenaries unless they feel that they're getting a good deal.
2.) You don't think game balance and/or verisimilitude will function at the prices they consider to be a "good deal".

Solutions:
Stop hiring them. No, don't go passive-aggressive and deny them a game. BRING THE ADVENTURE TO THEM. The villain they crossed three adventures ago frames them for murder/attacks them in their home/kidnaps their friends/lays a curse on them/hires a string of bounty hunters to collect their scalps/knocks up their teenage daughter then runs out on her/robs their home while they're away and pees on the floor for good measure. He does something that hits them savagely and repeatedly in the junk, and then he laughs in their faces, leaves insulting graffiti on their door, and runs for the hills. THEY WILL FOLLOW. LET THE ADVENTURE BEGIN.

Assumptions:
1.) Your players find the NPCs and plot hooks used to start the canned adventures to be boring and trite. The canned game sounds so dumb they can't be persuaded to run it without offers of massive loot.
2.) They are right. Canned games often have boring, trite plot hooks and dull, one-dimensional NPCs.

Solutions:
Stop using those NPCs and those plot hooks. Invent your own. Go through the through module line by line, crossing out the names of Dudley Do-Right the questgiver and Dirk Dastardly, the villain, and replace them with NPCs from your game, NPCs the players already know and have demonstrated interest in and attachment to. Preferably, the villain should be the guy who kicked them in the junk last game session, as described in the first situation above. Also, throw in some personal history. Mayhap the villain isn't some random jerkoff with an axe to grind, but a character's parent, teacher, BFF, or the dude who runs the magic shop where he buys all his loot. They'll be hunting after this villain thinking "Hey, I don't want to fight you, but you're forcing a confrontation here." That's dramatic tension! It's interesting and fun.

DabblerWizard
2010-03-25, 03:09 PM
I tend to prefer running low to medium power games, where magic items, and wealth aren't very common.

An example from a recent campaign:

Players: Oh yay! We found these magic gloves that most of us don't want to use. We can sell them. *Goes to local city market place* How much would you buy these magic gloves for?

Merchant: Do you expect me to have thousands of gold lying around?

Players: Yes.

Merchant: Well I don't. Go to the Wizards' College. :smalltongue:


Ultimately, give them a way to use up the gold they have, don't give them much gold for a while, have them live off the wealth they've earned. You could even suggest that they've created a mini economic crisis in the region since they've acquired so much of the circulating currency in the area.

Lin Bayaseda
2010-03-25, 03:20 PM
Good advice by jiriku. Definitely bring the fight to them. I was always partial to the good old "poison was slipped into your drink; you have two days to find an antidote or die" plot hook.

taltamir
2010-03-25, 03:57 PM
NPC: This is our offer of reward
PCs: We want triple

*diplomacy checks etc*

NPC: I only have X amount of gold!
PCs: Then screw you bub! We dont adventure for cheap-skates!

DM: All right guys. You get 100 XP each for RPing the encounter. That was fun guys! See you next week.

*DM packs up his stuff and leaves*
good example


Railroading should be discouraged. But to a certain extent the party needs to be willing to work with the DM to play the game. If X Y and Z are the adventure hooks, as a player its your job to figure out why your character would want to go on those adventure hooks. If the party refuses all the hooks you have prepared, because they know that without their capitulation nobody gets to play..... then nobody gets to play.
very true.


Don't do reballincing. That just encourages negative behavior and you will only have to balance more and more as they continue bad behavior. Random Rust Monsters are all fun and good, but the party is just as likely to call shenanigans on you and complain about DM fiat and how much you suck for taking all their treasure.
This cannot be stressed enough.. such behavior on your part WILL encourage bad behavior on their part and should not be done... and rust monsters are just mean and go into dm fiat land.


When they ask why you're packing up, you just tell them. "You're using OOC metagame tactics to force me to hand you treasure. But this NPC only has this much treasure on him. You refused the adventure, and thats all I have for today. So we're done."

Well, you don't have to literally LEAVE, you can just explain to them that they are using OOC metagame tactics to force you to hand them treasure. and discuss it without you saying you are leaving first

Deca
2010-03-25, 04:12 PM
Give them everything they want. Then find some backhanded horrible way to take it all away from them. They might complain but you just have to remind them that:

a) This isn't no Monty Haul campaign you're running

and

b) You're the DM and what you say goes.

I admit that it's a pretty jackass move but it sounds like they kind of deserved it. Seriously, you can't just demand your DM gives you more stuff! If I tried that on my local DM, all I would receive is fire and death.

Shishnarfne
2010-03-25, 04:36 PM
A fun way around this might be to have a second, higher level module prepared:

That way, when they ask for more money, have the NPC say that this job "Isn't worth that kind of price," and suggest that they would be willing to pay a little more for a tougher job.

Or maybe I just like sending consistently overgreedy players into the Tomb of Horrors.

(On a side note, the key is to consistently note that NPCs offer the listed rewards for a reason: it's how much they can afford to get the job done. They don't think the job is worth more, and they aren't typically willing to handle the risk of paying up-front on a difficult task. If you start having NPCs consistently refuse to increase compensation, the players will be forced to have less interesting encounters as you "wing it" for the doings around town/random wilderness/whatever.)

Another option is to have a few adventures where the lure is the promise of a hidden treasure... not a reward for bringing something back.

Basically, they've gotten used to being able to extort NPCs based on the metagame logic that you want to run a specific module. The only real way to break this is to stop having them give in to this kind of extortion. It's going to result in some ugly discussions, in all likelihood, but as a DM, you really can't afford to let players dictate their own wealth in this manner.

Beorn080
2010-03-25, 04:56 PM
One of two solutions here.

Head of Vecna

or

Tomb of Horrors.

If you go the tomb route, have the quest giver literally give them everything they want, +5 keen vorpal dancing greatswords, anything. If they manage to get through the Tomb without dying from their greed, especially at level 3-4, then check them for dopplegangers.

As for the Head, well, they'll fight each other for such a potent artifact.

Edit: Darn, ninja'd.

Asheram
2010-03-25, 05:24 PM
Make a little sign to hold up while they talk to the NPC's saying;
"Take the quest! It will earn you gold and perhaps additional shinies!"

Emmerask
2010-03-25, 05:50 PM
I have a problem. Whenever I try to run a pre-generated module like from out of dragon magazine, My players won't even go for it unless they ask for 3-5 times the ammount of gold given as a base reward! (Even After I modify it so that 6 people can get the reward instead of 4) It's very annoying since I can't run the module without them, and I really don't have anything else planed. They simply won't DO anything unless I offer them a huge monetary reward, I give them a promise of treasure and loot, but they still refuse any job that doesn't pay up front. They also like half payment in advance and consistantly asked to "Be equiped" for the encounter, like they think they need more equipment BEFORE they get to the new location.

Again, Like I said, it tends to drive the game to a standstill and Wealth is being broken.

May I ask if the players are your friends or just some "random" people?
And why canīt you run the modules without them? is it because there are very few other d&d players in your town/city/region?

Beelzebub1111
2010-03-25, 06:19 PM
May I ask if the players are your friends or just some "random" people?
And why canīt you run the modules without them? is it because there are very few other d&d players in your town/city/region?

They are friends. Most of them anyways. and yes, there are few other people I know to play with.

oxybe
2010-03-25, 06:30 PM
instead of being a [feminine hygiene product] tell them strait up what your problem is and if they still want to be a jerk about it: ask one of them to gm instead since you're not getting any fun out of.

tell them their characters' items is really making it hard to give them a proper challenge and their demands are getting out of hand. you would gladly GM for them if they would agree to a compromise to lower the power of there gear and be less demanding for treasure, otherwise they can have someone else GM for a bit.

no one can force you to gm and it's entirely your choice to play. personally i would rather no D&D then bad D&D, since i have other hobbies that i enjoy i could be doing during that time.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-25, 07:15 PM
If they demand all that money, and you're uncomfortable with them having it, have them captured and it all taken away from them.

Or, if you're feeling nasty, chuck an Adamantine Horror at them and watch all that wealth disappear.

Other ways to hide the rails can work.

taltamir
2010-03-25, 07:18 PM
instead of being a [feminine hygiene product]

I thought it was <feminine body part> not <feminine hygiene product>... or is there a term I am not familiar with?

The Glyphstone
2010-03-25, 07:23 PM
I thought it was <feminine body part> not <feminine hygiene product>... or is there a term I am not familiar with?

There may be. On the internet, the [feminine hygiene product] he refers to is often suffixed with "-bag". Both terms are intending towards the same insulting end though.

Evard
2010-03-25, 08:17 PM
Two words: Gold elemental

Two more words: Chlorine Elemental

taltamir
2010-03-25, 08:19 PM
There may be. On the internet, the [feminine hygiene product] he refers to is often suffixed with "-bag". Both terms are intending towards the same insulting end though.

oh THAT one... yea... thats more of a "feminine folk "hygiene" device that is actually unhealthy according to real doctors and western medicine"...
other medieval "hygiene" practices including "brushing" your teeth with a brick or a file and slathering it with hone. Slathering your hair in animal fat and NEVER washing it (because water "damages" the hair according to them). And so on...


Two more words: Chlorine Elemental

I see your chlorine elemental and I raise you a uranium elemental.

Deth Muncher
2010-03-25, 08:20 PM
Two more words: Chlorine Elemental

Even more two words: Titanium Elemental

taltamir
2010-03-25, 08:22 PM
Even more two words: Titanium Elemental

or if you go the erfworld route... crap golem.

Flickerdart
2010-03-25, 08:28 PM
or if you go the erfworld route... crap golem.
An Excremental? :smallbiggrin:

Deth Muncher
2010-03-25, 08:29 PM
An Excremental? :smallbiggrin:

Portmanteau works this way.

Arutema
2010-03-25, 10:37 PM
There's always the Bioware solution. Threaten them with conscription if they refuse to take the job for a reasonable fee.

Nero24200
2010-03-26, 06:55 AM
I generally prefer to go for a "this is what would happen in this situation" type approach. In this case, just ahve the NPC's say "Fine, we'll find someone else". It's not like adventurers are rare in a D'n'D setting.

It's not exactly rail-roading to have the PC's want to go on a quest, and if they turn down every one unless the reward is doubled, they're being idiots. Let them live off proffession checks until they realise IC that they don't own the world and can't always get things their way.

Failing that, make the PC's adventure for other reasons. Have a family or friend kidnapped. Better yet, if the above method doesn't work, you can use kidnappings and other personal quests as a means to keep their loot in check, since you don't have to offer a reward.

SpikeFightwicky
2010-03-26, 07:19 AM
[Advice]

This and the OP's... OP got me thinking: how does the group work when they're not doing a prefab adventure? When they go through something homemade, are they decent/manageable? (You say that whenever you run a Dragon magazine adventure, they get all disruptive) If so, an easy solution would be to use the prefab adventure as a template, and modify it yourself so that it's more to the party's liking.

What kind of adventures (if any) did the group enjoy in the past?

Beelzebub1111
2010-03-26, 08:23 AM
This and the OP's... OP got me thinking: how does the group work when they're not doing a prefab adventure? When they go through something homemade, are they decent/manageable? (You say that whenever you run a Dragon magazine adventure, they get all disruptive) If so, an easy solution would be to use the prefab adventure as a template, and modify it yourself so that it's more to the party's liking.

What kind of adventures (if any) did the group enjoy in the past?

Looting a dead wizard's house, the arena thing that I mentioned, and they did enjoy "Box of Flumph" but again with the haggling, and that was at level 1.

mackejn
2010-03-26, 08:44 AM
I tend to like the talk to them and see if you can explain to them the problem. If it really is just a perception thing because they are used to a different system, then maybe you can explain to them the difference and try to get them to try it your way. That being said, keep Tomb of Horrors as a backup. :smallamused: If they don't agree, have the next npc offer them the normal quest, and then when they refuse have the NPC tell them there is this OTHER one they'd be willing to give them more money/rewards for completeing. Just don't let on that it's Tomb of Horrors until its too late and run in take no prisoner's mode.

Triaxx
2010-03-26, 09:05 AM
Dealing with Wealth and Greed in one fell swoop. *stolen heartily from BG2* Replace all local merchants with Djinn. Instantly triple all listed prices. For everything.

When they demand half-payment and equipment, give up the payment and then a small additional bonus for equipping themselves. Let them go to the Djinni's for their stuff. If they complain, explain that he figures they'll know what they need more than he will. Disallow the Djinni's bargaining. They'll either have to pay the prices, or work with what they have.

Alternately, the Mega Man solution: You know all that awesome stuff you had? Too bad it's gone now.

Or send Nishruu after them. They eat magical items. Suddenly, the dense fog coalesces into several pairs of smoky red eyes, and the Nishruu begin closing in on the feast. Roll for Initiative. It'll piss them off particularly if you make it so the Nishruu simply eat any magical weapon that attacks them. And have touch attacks begin destroying magical equipment.

Then inform them that the local coinage is magically enchanted to protect against forgeries.

Or: Tell them you're not DMing any more since they're refusing the play in the intended manner of the game. And then stop playing with them.

Godna
2010-03-26, 09:41 AM
My solution for this was the next time I started a campaign they were in a environment where money was worthless due to the lack of an economy. (They were responsible for settling a new settlement on a recently discovered plane. That had lost contact with the old) I'll admit it was probably a little spiteful to have a mountain literally made of gold over the horizon in plain site, but it was amusing.

Quincunx
2010-03-26, 09:42 AM
I'm surprised we got this far without this solution: throw away the idea of a fixed price. Next time, drop the initial offer below book value and let them haggle it up to where it ought to be. Offer to increase the up-front fee if-and-only-if they leave some valuable possession with the quest-giver as collateral, the quest-giver having accused them of wanting to take the lucre and run--having the valuable item survive this period and be given back intact at the end of the adventure is optional. Give items which are weak or low on charges now, but will increase in potential (back up to the value you assigned when handing them out) when treated with substance A in dungeon B behind plot hook C. The level drop might be accounting for them forgetting what being a struggling and poor band of adventurers is like, but I'm guessing they also enjoy haggling. (Mind, this is coming from someone who sets up a collapsible betting shop at MMORPG raids and publicizes a list of odds on what class is going to die first this encounter*--and who also learned that offering "ten times the payout!" on a trifecta of deaths after one correct guess was a good way to seamlessly 'cancel' over-generous payouts.)

*"100pp on [paladin]--"
(hands me 10000pp)
"--for the foreseeable future."
That was a year ago. I'm STILL paying that one back (it's a zero-sum game at heart). Darn pallies with no sense of self-preservation.

cZak
2010-03-26, 12:10 PM
OP, quite frankly most of the advice you're getting in this thread is just godawful.

Solutions:
Stop hiring them. The villain they crossed three adventures ago frames them for murder/attacks them in their home/kidnaps their friends/lays a curse on them/hires a string of bounty hunters to collect their scalps/knocks up their teenage daughter then runs out on her/robs their home while they're away and pees on the floor for good measure. He does something that hits them savagely and repeatedly in the junk, and then he laughs in their faces, leaves insulting graffiti on their door, and runs for the hills. THEY WILL FOLLOW. LET THE ADVENTURE BEGIN.

This might work...
Or the players determine 'Nobody's paying us, why bother' or also encourages players to not develop associations for fear of being vulnerable.
If it works, great. If it doesn't, it identifies the play style and motivations of your players, and answers some questions.:smallannoyed:


Assumptions:
1.) Your players find the NPCs and plot hooks used to start the canned adventures to be boring and trite. The canned game sounds so dumb they can't be persuaded to run it without offers of massive loot.
2.) They are right. Canned games often have boring, trite plot hooks and dull, one-dimensional NPCs.

Solutions:
Stop using those NPCs and those plot hooks. Invent your own. Go through the through module line by line, crossing out the names of Dudley Do-Right the questgiver and Dirk Dastardly, the villain, and replace them with NPCs from your game, NPCs the players already know and have demonstrated interest in and attachment to. Preferably, the villain should be the guy who kicked them in the junk last game session, as described in the first situation above. Also, throw in some personal history. Mayhap the villain isn't some random jerkoff with an axe to grind, but a character's parent, teacher, BFF, or the dude who runs the magic shop where he buys all his loot. They'll be hunting after this villain thinking "Hey, I don't want to fight you, but you're forcing a confrontation here." That's dramatic tension! It's interesting and fun.

I'm not sure how massive treasure compensates for trite Npc's/ plot hooks...:smallconfused: The general premise of the game is to 'adventure'. I've not had the privilege of a DM who was a master storyteller/ professional writer, so not all backgrounds on a game are going to be Tolkien-esque. If players refuse to allow some suspension of disbelief to engage in a game, how do you ever get something started?

Enguhl
2010-03-26, 04:56 PM
It has kind of been said before, but a simple solution is to have the adventure come to them. Have a (fast) thief steal something valuable from them and run to wherever you want them to go, that way they don't even get to ask for more money or cash up front. Sure you can only use it once or twice, but then you can have other situations like a party member getting poisoned and there is only one antidote, or just have them be attacked in (near) town.