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LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-25, 08:00 AM
I reaize that Jester is a class from a book almost nobody has, but its basically a Debuff Bard from the box with (if I remember right) Inspire like a bard. I however am confused:

1. Can they qualify for Bard PrCs like Sublime Chord (if not, then :'()
2. How good are they in comparison to Bard?
3. Is Suggestion as broken as my buddies all say?
4. What races fit the Jester/Bard theme (not what is optimized, but theme)

thanks

Ernir
2010-03-25, 08:35 AM
What is the name of the book?

Escheton
2010-03-25, 08:39 AM
dragon compendium if I am not mistaken, there are a few threads about it already.
Not this specific though.

Kylarra
2010-03-25, 09:08 AM
I reaize that Jester is a class from a book almost nobody has, but its basically a Debuff Bard from the box with (if I remember right) Inspire like a bard. I however am confused:

1. Can they qualify for Bard PrCs like Sublime Chord (if not, then :'()
2. How good are they in comparison to Bard?
3. Is Suggestion as broken as my buddies all say?
4. What races fit the Jester/Bard theme (not what is optimized, but theme)

thanks1. By the book, no they cannot.
2. Eh, I'd say out of the box, they're about the same, but bard pulls ahead due to splat support.
3. no? Suggestion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/suggestion.htm). I mean, it's certainly a fun spell as most mind-affecting things tend to be, but hardly broken on its own.
4. Halflings and gnomes!

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-25, 11:18 AM
1. By the book, no they cannot.
2. Eh, I'd say out of the box, they're about the same, but bard pulls ahead due to splat support.
3. no? Suggestion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/suggestion.htm). I mean, it's certainly a fun spell as most mind-affecting things tend to be, but hardly broken on its own.
4. Halflings and gnomes!

1. I've asked my DM, and he's allowing Jester to take Sublime Chord as a PrC, though its called Sublime Comic (basically, it does the same thing...)

2. So Jester's more aggressive and debuff-based spell list is weaker than bard's buff and minor splat effects?

3. One PC used Mass Suggestion to kill an entire encounter by making a group of mooks kill each other off.

4. So....Gnome and Halfling. okay then...


now, how can somebody create the "Arcane Comic"

Kylarra
2010-03-25, 11:26 AM
If you consider the support bards get from splats to be minor, I'm afraid there's not much else I can do to help you here.

Also, a level 5/6 spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/suggestionMass.htm) really ought to be able to slaughter a group of mooks with no problems.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-25, 11:35 AM
If you consider the support bards get from splats to be minor, I'm afraid there's not much else I can do to help you here.

Also, a level 5/6 spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/suggestionMass.htm) really ought to be able to slaughter a group of mooks with no problems.

Well, it comes from a predjudice from the one and only bard I ever ran back in 2001. He got seriously pasted by a Yeti, who picked him up, ripped him apart, then threw my body parts at my party, after of course biting my head off.

Kylarra
2010-03-25, 11:36 AM
Well, it comes from a predjudice from the one and only bard I ever ran back in 2001. He got seriously pasted by a Yeti, who picked him up, ripped him apart, then threw my body parts at my party, after of course biting my head off.That's a personal issue, not a mechanical one. :smallwink:

arguskos
2010-03-25, 11:40 AM
We've discussed the Jester in good detail in another thread around these parts just recently. My opinion? The Jester is a good class, on par with the Bard. T.G. Oskar made the smart decision to call it the "Anti-Bard". Sadly, they have no support and cannot qualify for stuff Bards can. It would not be a stretch to ask your DM to let Jester's Performance count as Bardic Music for the purpose of prestige classes and qualifications, but that's your DMs call, not mine.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-25, 11:45 AM
We've discussed the Jester in good detail in another thread around these parts just recently. My opinion? The Jester is a good class, on par with the Bard. T.G. Oskar made the smart decision to call it the "Anti-Bard". Sadly, they have no support and cannot qualify for stuff Bards can. It would not be a stretch to ask your DM to let Jester's Performance count as Bardic Music for the purpose of prestige classes and qualifications, but that's your DMs call, not mine.

He says Preformance is is a mirror to Music in the same way Sudden Strike is for Sneak Attack (not entirely identical, but the same basic idea)

So, judging on this ruling, would this be a good class combo?

Jester 5/Sublime Chord 4/Master of Masks 10/Archmage 1

when paired with a race that fits the flavor?

Greenish
2010-03-25, 11:55 AM
3. One PC used Mass Suggestion to kill an entire encounter by making a group of mooks kill each other off.From SRD:
The suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the activity sound reasonable. Asking the creature to do some obviously harmful act automatically negates the effect of the spell.If you can word the suggestion "kill each other" sound reasonable to a group of (more or less) intelligent beings who have a reason for being together (which they presumably had, since they were together), you deserve to be able to play a bard.

If you can convince your DM that such an act is not obviously harmful, you're looking for a career in politics.

[Edit]:
Jester 5/Sublime Chord 4/Master of Masks 10/Archmage 1Master of Mask isn't sadly worth taking all 10 levels, and one level of archmage costs you a couple of feats to be able to swap one of your precious spellslots for a High Arcana. Hardly worth it.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-25, 12:43 PM
From SRD:If you can word the suggestion "kill each other" sound reasonable to a group of (more or less) intelligent beings who have a reason for being together (which they presumably had, since they were together), you deserve to be able to play a bard.

If you can convince your DM that such an act is not obviously harmful, you're looking for a career in politics.

[Edit]:Master of Mask isn't sadly worth taking all 10 levels, and one level of archmage costs you a couple of feats to be able to swap one of your precious spellslots for a High Arcana. Hardly worth it.

1. What's wrong with MoM? It appears to be a good PrC for Jester
2. I see, so what do YOU suggest (by you, I mean anybody)

and as for the Mass Suggestion cheese, he was an Incubus Assassin, not a bard. Hence my dislike of the spell.

Greenish
2010-03-25, 12:53 PM
1. What's wrong with MoM? It appears to be a good PrC for JesterI'm not familiar with Jester, but MoM has 4/10 casting (bad!) and only gets fancy gimmicks beyond first level. Most of the masks are rather bland, and you can only wear one at once, and switching always costs an action.
2. I see, so what do YOU suggest (by you, I mean anybody)Stay in SC or maybe dip crusader/warblade for Songs of White Raven if your DM allows it to work on Jesters.

and as for the Mass Suggestion cheese, he was an Incubus Assassin, not a bard. Hence my dislike of the spell.He could've been a Prince of Amber, the spell still doesn't work like that.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-25, 12:57 PM
I'm not familiar with Jester, but MoM has 4/10 casting (bad!) and only gets fancy gimmicks beyond first level. Most of the masks are rather bland, and you can only wear one at once, and switching always costs an action.Stay in SC or maybe dip crusader/warblade for Songs of White Raven if your DM allows it to work on Jesters.
He could've been a Prince of Amber, the spell still doesn't work like that.

1. Hmmm... so a Level Dip into Master of Masks is advised over 6 lost levels?

2. DM doesn't allow ToB classes (he claims they are overpowered)

3. It was against 12 3rd level Pirates

Greenish
2010-03-25, 01:05 PM
1. Hmmm... so a Level Dip into Master of Masks is advised over 6 lost levels?If you really want a couple of those masks. Other than Gladiator's proficiency in all exotic weapons, the bonuses from masks are rather minor (and gladiator works better on more martial classes).

3. It was against 12 3rd level PiratesSo? Attacking the 11 other pirates still is neither reasonable nor "not obviously harmful". The spell that'd let you do that is Mass Dominate Person, Mass Suggestion just doesn't work like that.

[Edit]: If you like MoM's premise, try Chameleon (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b). It comes with it's own casting and doesn't have exactly the same flavour, but it's pretty awesome.

AtwasAwamps
2010-03-25, 01:08 PM
3. It was against 12 3rd level Pirates

It doesn't matter who he was or what he does or who they were or what they do. An obviously harmful suggestion means the spell is broken. "Stab your buddy" is harmful. If you can pull off a way to make that not sound harmful...well, I don't think you actually can. UNLESS you use suggestion to...oh my god!

Use suggestion to convince a crowd the poisoned daggers that are in a pile in front of them are harmless trick daggers. Convince them to stab each other with them. Or, really, convince them they are in a dream and that its fun to stab their dream creations!

Okay, there are ways you could do this. But that doesn't sound like what he did.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-25, 01:11 PM
If you really want a couple of those masks. Other than Gladiator's proficiency in all exotic weapons, the bonuses from masks are rather minor (and gladiator works better on more martial classes).

So? Attacking the 11 other pirates still is neither reasonable nor "not obviously harmful". The spell that'd let you do that is Mass Dominate Person, Mass Suggestion just doesn't work like that.

Well, my DM added more masks, like the Wyrm mask, which gives swallow whole (not great, but funny); the Void mask, which grants knowledge of all sorcer spells up to your ECL (ie: at 10th level, I have 5th level sorcerer spells); the Fey mask, which is druid spells; and the Illithid mask, which grants psionics as a psion

and he worded it so they essentially killed each other in jealousy

tyckspoon
2010-03-25, 01:15 PM
...the Void mask, which grants knowledge of all sorcer spells up to your ECL (ie: at 10th level, I have 5th level sorcerer spells); the Fey mask, which is druid spells; and the Illithid mask, which grants psionics as a psion


Ok, those are pretty flipping awesome, but still not worth ditching 6 caster levels unless their effects are directly tied to your Master of Masks class level (that is, if you are a level 10 Master of Masks then you would get equivalent casting as a 10th level Sorcerer/Druid/Psion.) If its based on your existing casting, you're still better off to dip into Masks to get one or two of them and then going into something else that advances your casting.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-25, 01:17 PM
Ok, those are pretty flipping awesome, but still not worth ditching 6 caster levels unless their effects are directly tied to your Master of Masks class level (that is, if you are a level 10 Master of Masks then you would get equivalent casting as a 10th level Sorcerer/Druid/Psion.) If its based on your existing casting, you're still better off to dip into Masks to get one or two of them and then going into something else that advances your casting.

DM also gave MoM almost full casting (9/10), thus making it more playable

Kylarra
2010-03-25, 01:19 PM
For the record, if you're going to ask for feedback on builds, full disclosure of applicable houserules will greatly expedite the process and prevent these weird "gotcha" situations.

AtwasAwamps
2010-03-25, 01:19 PM
Hey Alim, do me a favor?

When you start looking for advice, please make sure to include the important houserules you and your DM use. Some of these drastically change the game and it means standard rules and optimization may not matter for you (for example, I recently discovered that one of my DMs does not make you take base metamagic feats to take divine metamagic feats. BECAUSE HE IS INSANE.)

EDIT: Totally ninja'd

Greenish
2010-03-25, 01:20 PM
DM also gave MoM almost full casting (9/10), thus making it more playablePlayable? Hell, 9/10 casting in three different classes (with all Sorcerer spells known :smalleek:) is bloody awesome.

Or is it 9/10 in your current class and then 10/10 for those three? :smallconfused:

Flickerdart
2010-03-25, 01:21 PM
3. It was against 12 3rd level Pirates
To a party with 6th level spells, no amount of 3rd level pirates is going to be a challenge. Chastise your friend for wasting a high-level spell slot.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-25, 01:22 PM
My bad y'all...

He just remodeled MoM and Master of the Unseen Hand to make them tantalizing choices for players.

He also ruled that its otherwise RAM, minus homebrew must be run through "The Council," which is my buddy's dad, my teacher, and our XDM, who we call with the info. 2/3 vote and its allowed

Kylarra
2010-03-25, 01:24 PM
My bad y'all...

He just remodeled MoM and Master of the Unseen Hand to make them tantalizing choices for players.

He also ruled that its otherwise RAM, minus homebrew must be run through "The Council," which is my buddy's dad, my teacher, and our XDM, who we call with the info. 2/3 vote and its allowedRAM?
Rules As... Misunderstood?

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-25, 01:24 PM
Playable? Hell, 9/10 casting in three different classes (with all Sorcerer spells known :smalleek:) is bloody awesome.

Or is it 9/10 in your current class and then 10/10 for those three? :smallconfused:

here's how the masks work:

If you are a Bard 5/MoM 6, you cast spells/manifest powers as an 11th level sorcerer/psion/druid

he remodeled MoM as a 9/10 caster instead of a 4/10

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-25, 01:25 PM
RAM?
Rules As... Misunderstood?

Rules as they make sense. thats what my DM calls it... I realize he's an idiot...

what is it called really????

Kylarra
2010-03-25, 01:26 PM
here's how the masks work:

If you are a Bard 5/MoM 6, you cast spells/manifest powers as an 11th level sorcerer/psion/druid

he remodeled MoM as a 9/10 caster instead of a 4/10I love reading about you and AGG32's games/houserules/DM antics/etc. They always amuse me. Cuz sheesh that's ridiculous by any metric...


Rules as they make sense. thats what my DM calls it... I realize he's an idiot...

what is it called really????Oh, that acronym. RAMS was what they used 'round these parts iirc.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-25, 01:28 PM
To a party with 6th level spells, no amount of 3rd level pirates is going to be a challenge. Chastise your friend for wasting a high-level spell slot.

Two major things:

1. we were 8th level, and they were lead by a Half-Red Dragon Troll with levels (appx 12th level) who lead them into combat

2. My buddy was an Incubus Vampire Assassin. yes, an Undead Incubus who was a 1st level assassin. He used Mass Suggestion as an SLA to cause this, then teleported out of danger (cheating jerk...)

arguskos
2010-03-25, 01:28 PM
I love reading about you and AGG32's games/houserules/DM antics/etc. They always amuse me.
Cause these two groups have crazy games. Just like Volkov, who plays on a level that's just incomprehensible to any and everyone, save the guys who wrote the Immortal's Handbook.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-25, 01:29 PM
I love reading about you and AGG32's games/houserules/DM antics/etc. They always amuse me.

well, I won't complain on Master of Masks as a 9/10 caster, but I won't use those homebrew masks. They are too powerful for my taste...

and AGG32 was an old buddy of mine. He died three days ago from a car accident, so farewell, old chum.

Kylarra
2010-03-25, 01:30 PM
Cause these two groups have crazy games. Just like Volkov, who plays on a level that's just incomprehensible to any and everyone, save the guys who wrote the Immortal's Handbook.Yeah pretty much.


Two major things:

1. we were 8th level, and they were lead by a Half-Red Dragon Troll with levels (appx 12th level) who lead them into combat

2. My buddy was an Incubus Vampire Assassin. yes, an Undead Incubus who was a 1st level assassin. He used Mass Suggestion as an SLA to cause this, then teleported out of danger (cheating jerk...)Even at 8th level, 12 3rd level fodder is barely a distraction... I mean you guys don't even have onslaught penalties to abuse your mooks with.


and AGG32 was an old buddy of mine. He died three days ago from a car accident, so farewell, old chum.Unfortunate. You have my sympathies.

Greenish
2010-03-25, 01:31 PM
Cause these two groups have crazy games.What, don't they play in the same group?

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-25, 01:32 PM
Even at 8th level, 12 3rd level fodder is barely a distraction... I mean you guys don't even have onslaught penalties to abuse your mooks with.

It was still a major buzzkill, especially when he afterword burned the bodies.

I was a Necropolitan Dread Necromancer and I was gonna take the fresh bodies and use them, but NOOOOOO...He had to cremate them as a "sacred burial ritual"

arguskos
2010-03-25, 01:33 PM
What, don't they play in the same group?
They do? Eh, didn't realize that. Also, LichPrince, sorry to hear about AGG. That's pretty horrible. My sympathies and condolences.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-25, 01:35 PM
They do? Eh, didn't realize that. Also, LichPrince, sorry to hear about AGG. That's pretty horrible. My sympathies and condolences.

No prob. He was a good friend. :'(

anywho, let's get off that subject, shall we?

Greenish
2010-03-25, 01:37 PM
here's how the masks work:

If you are a Bard 5/MoM 6, you cast spells/manifest powers as an 11th level sorcerer/psion/druidWhat. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FlatWhat) That's insane, you're better caster with any of those than with the class whose casting the PrC actually advances. Playing by RAMS, yeeeeeeah…

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-25, 01:46 PM
What. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FlatWhat) That's insane, you're better caster with any of those than with the class whose casting the PrC actually advances. Playing by RAMS, yeeeeeeah…

My DM is insane. Near clinically. He's also the guy who runs an Orc Swashbuckler and a Pixie Barbarian, so don't judge him...

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-25, 02:08 PM
So, as I have it now (remembering our minor Homebrew rules)

Jester 6/Sublime Chord 4/Master of Masks (revamp) 10

on a whatever race

is a good idea?

Keld Denar
2010-03-25, 02:30 PM
Unless you are using some pretty severe skill point hax (or your crazy DM just waved skill reqs), you can't possibly qualify for Sublime Chord before 10th level, with the 1st level taken as 11.

So yea...any more hidden house rules that we should know about?