Potential houserule on Evasion

[Mastikator]

A simple houserule I just thought of that could be very interesting. Ok, how about this.
Whenever evasion is used, the character rapidly jumps outside the blastrange. This either means any (freely chosen) direction, or if the character succeeds a jump check, straight up in the air.


This is something I thought about while watching two level 20 wizard & sorcerer go at each other with fireballs. They were essencially able to evade them by jumping at the right time.
Now this was in Dungeons and Dragons Online, which was realtime, and fireballs explode on impact (i.e, evade the ball = evade the explosion).

And isn't basically that what evasion is? You jump/evade so quickly that you entirely get out of the blast? So shouldn't you also END UP where you jumped? I don't know why this isn't the case, especially since it otherwise allows for absurdities like evading a 25x25ft fireball in a 25x25ft room.
With this, such absurdities are avoided, since if you can't get out of the blast range you don't get evasion, (you still get only half damage as per usual).

[Volthawk]

That's actually an ACF for Kobold Rogues:



Evasive Skitter (Ex): A kobold rogue who takes the
8th-level racial substitution level gains the ability to move
out of the area of dangerous spells and effects. A kobold
rogue who succeeds on a Refl ex save against a spell or
effect gains the normal benefi t for the successful save,
and she can choose to move out of the area of the spell or
effect. She must take the shortest path available to her, and
she can’t move farther than her speed. If more than one
path of equal distance is available, she can choose which
path to use. If no such path is available, the kobold rogue
can’t use this ability. This movement provokes attacks of
opportunity as normal for movement.

[RebelRogue]

Also, there's a Feat from PHBII (IIRC) that let's you hide when evading if it's possible for you to move to cover or concealment. Pretty cool, I guess.

Personally, I wouldn't use such a houserule. I like my rogues (and monks and rangers) to have that special, pseudo-magical ability to avoid blasts just because!

[Keld Denar]

Its called slipping into Roguespace, a pocket dimension filled with desparate prayers and fleeting desires.

Similar to bullet time or "entering the matrix".

[MachineWraith]

That opens up new tactical opportunities. If the blast isn't centered on the rogue, would he just move to the nearest edge? If so, use that fireball to blast him off a cliff. Either he voluntarily fails the save and takes full damage, or he flies off the cliff to his death. Or a party member could slap his teammate with a fireball to shoot him forward a few extra feet. Or use a large AoE to have him make an otherwise impossible jump.

[Mastikator]

Huh? No if he doesn't use evasion he can still take the normal half damage on a successful save.

[MachineWraith]

Huh? No if he doesn't use evasion he can still take the normal half damage on a successful save.

Since when could you choose whether or not to use evasion? If you have it, you use it.

[Curmudgeon]

That opens up new tactical opportunities. If the blast isn't centered on the rogue, would he just move to the nearest edge? If so, use that fireball to blast him off a cliff.
OK, so we want to avoid such obvious vulnerabilities; after all, evasion is supposed to help the Rogue. So I think the right course is to base this off the Kobold ACF: the movement is optional, and you still escape all damage.

[Mastikator]

Since when could you choose whether or not to use evasion? If you have it, you use it.

What are you talking about?
The houserule I suggested was this: Evasion means you actually leave the blast area, if you don't want to move horizontally you are allowed a jump check to move vertically (failed jump doesn't mean failed reflex, only failed evasion!). If you have fly, and perfect maneuverability then jumping is not necessary since you can just fly upward.
If you don't do either then you still get the regular reflex save for half that everyone else gets.

So if you have low jump, no fly, and the only way out of the blast area is off a cliff falling to your death, then you will just have to do a reflex save for half, just as anyone else who doesn't have evasion.
It's never to the disadvantage of the evader. (unless it's vital that you don't move)

[Curmudgeon]

The houserule I suggested was this: Evasion means you actually leave the blast area ...
It's never to the disadvantage of the evader. (unless it's vital that you don't move)
So if you can't leave the blast area you still don't take damage? A Fireball in a medium-size closed room is the obvious situation.

[Asgardian]

As far as my understanding goes, PC's inhabit 5 ft squares which means theres room for maneuvering without actually leaving the square. Having Evasion mean you are adept at twisting out of the way, ducking, or jumping over things that enter your 5 ft square

Also.. we decided that fireball isnt a solid ball of flame but are instead tongues of flame that lick a roughly spherical area. Same end effect but it makes it possible to dodge (or at at least get your unprotected bits) between the flames.

[MachineWraith]

What are you talking about?
The houserule I suggested was this: Evasion means you actually leave the blast area, if you don't want to move horizontally you are allowed a jump check to move vertically (failed jump doesn't mean failed reflex, only failed evasion!). If you have fly, and perfect maneuverability then jumping is not necessary since you can just fly upward.
If you don't do either then you still get the regular reflex save for half that everyone else gets.

So if you have low jump, no fly, and the only way out of the blast area is off a cliff falling to your death, then you will just have to do a reflex save for half, just as anyone else who doesn't have evasion.
It's never to the disadvantage of the evader. (unless it's vital that you don't move)

Ah hah. Forgive my apparently lacking reading comprehension skills. So each time you're hit with a spell for which evasion would work, you choose whether or not to activate it, and how. You can either be made to move in some direction, whether that be horizontal or vertical, and take no damage, or you can not move, and save for half as normal. Gotcha.

What about the other two uses for it? Having your friend the sorcerer slap you with a fireball, you use evasion, make the save, and fly forward an extra twenty feet. Not the most efficient means of getting extra movement. Actually, thinking about it, I would totally allow those kinds of shenanigans, if the caster is willing to give up a spell for it.

[Mastikator]

Ok true, but he was arguing that the rogue was going to take full damage because the rogue couldn't (or wouldn't) leave the blast area.
Though, a fireball in a closed room probably means the caster is also getting blasted, which could be even more devastating since rogues get d6s, and fireball casters usually only get d4s, and inferior reflex save (less likely to succeed in only taking half damage, which the rogue still could).

But honestly, a rogue shouldn't be able to evade a fireball that covers an entire room if the room is closed. It is absurd, it does not compute, it's not logical, Spock would not approve.
There's no shame in saying that maybe the rules are simply wrong.


Edit- ok, in inspiration to from Evasive Skitters. You are also only allowed to move as far as you can move otherwise.
Maybe a feat that allows you to borrow a move action from your next round might be interesting..

[Curmudgeon]

But honestly, a rogue shouldn't be able to evade a fireball that covers an entire room if the room is closed. It is absurd, it does not compute, it's not logical, Spock would not approve.
Ever watch Time Warp (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1312022/)? Fireballs are not continuous. They're formed of pockets of flame amidst regions of noncombusting air or exhaust gasses. Evasion means you're able to twitch just a bit so you're mostly in those nonburning volumes. You might lose your eyebrows, but don't suffer any significant damage.
The explosion creates almost no pressure. The thing that causes the most damage in real explosions is the overpressure, which Fireball distinctly lacks. Escaping with only minor singes is a definite possibility if you don't have to endure a shock wave.

[magic9mushroom]

The houserule I'd use is similar to the rules on area traps.

If they want to Evade, they have to move out of the area, and that counts as some of their movement for the next turn. If they don't have enough speed or can't make a Jump check, Evasion doesn't work and they take half damage like everyone else.

[randomhero00]

I've thought of it as slipping between a weak space in the fireball/AoE. Or simply ducking it. There's nothing that says AoEs (well for the most part) fill up cubic space. So I imagine most AoEs as more of an expanding ring (or several expanding rings) that the rogue can duck/slip between.

If you don't like that explanation another fluff one would be that the rogue or whatever "slashes" or "punches" through the expanding wave to create a brief space to slip through. Look at the way they can block attacks in the anime Bleach for example (they often block an attack with another attack.)

Physics don't work the same in DnD. After all, explosions like fireballs create no pressure wave (it explicitly states that)...which is impossible in real life. Which implies that its not a standard 3 dimensional explosion but more of a magically filled space that does damage if you get "caught" by it.

[Mastikator]

Ever watch Time Warp (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1312022/)?Nope. But evasion is a non-magical effect, not time-traveling.
Fireballs are not continuous. They're formed of pockets of flame amidst regions of noncombusting air or exhaust gasses. Evasion means you're able to twitch just a bit so you're mostly in those nonburning volumes. The fireball is not specific, what if it's a spell that evenly expands and the only way to get from one point where you're safe to another is to move through that which harms you?
Besides, how would you go about moving through pockets of non-filled areas which are unpredictably and rapidly moving without ever moving from your 5x5ft square?
Look, it's absurd and that's all there is to it. Why are you making up this weird apologetic for an absurd system that clearly needs fixing?

[Curmudgeon]

The fireball is not specific, what if it's a spell that evenly expands and the only way to get from one point where you're safe to another is to move through that which harms you?
Then it would be a different spell that didn't allow a Reflex save. As written, it's not pervasive in its area and thus allows evasion.

[nightwyrm]

If a rogue evades a locate city bomb, can he jump for miles?

[BobVosh]

Evasion is a minor magical reflexive trick that allows the rogue to prevent all damage from a unfocused attack. Later he gains such skill that he always manages to do this at least partially. Is it better if it is flavored magically like that? How does your version work with AoOs?

[MachineWraith]

If a rogue evades a locate city bomb, can he jump for miles?

Sorry to deviate from the thread topic, but I've seen the "locate city bomb" brought up a couple of times, and have no idea what it is. Would you care to elaborate on what it is and how it works?

[The Glyphstone]

A long, complicated string of metamagics that has the end result of flinging every person within a multi-radius mile circle either 1" (by one interpretation) for no damage, or to the edge of the circle for untold amounts of carnage. It's based off the Locate City spell, with a radius of 1 mile/caster level.

If I remember right:
Locate City
Snowcasting Locate City (gives it the Cold type)
Snowcasting Flash Frost Locate City (applies 2 points of cold damage to anyone in the radius, requires a Cold spell)
Snowcasting Flash Frost Explosive Locate City (anyone damage must make a reflex save or be flung to the edge of the spell's radius or until they hit a solid object, 1d6 damage per 10ft. traveled. Requires a spell with an area that deals damage.)
The last step is controversial, because some people consider its area of a 'circle' to mean the closest edge of the spell's area would be directly up or down, for only a millimeter or so of travel.

Alternatively, the last step is Snowcasting Flash Frost Fell Drain Locate City. Now, it doesn't fling anyone, but it applies 1 negative level to all targets. Instant extermination of entire city's worth of commoners, who immediately rise as free-willed zombies. It's also much more solid legally.

[magic9mushroom]

Alternatively, the last step is Snowcasting Flash Frost Fell Drain Locate City. Now, it doesn't fling anyone, but it applies 1 negative level to all targets. Instant extermination of entire city's worth of commoners, who immediately rise as free-willed zombies. It's also much more solid legally.

People might get cranky at you for Wight Apocalypsing cities.

Also, falls under Maruts' portfolio.

[Runestar]

And isn't basically that what evasion is? You jump/evade so quickly that you entirely get out of the blast?

Almost, but not always.

Wotc did mention somewhere that evasion can sometimes be attributed to luck. It does not always involve you jumping out of the way of that fireball. I can imagine a rogue spinning his cloak so quickly around himself to deflect the flames, for instance. :smalltongue:

[Curmudgeon]

Also note that sleeping people get Reflex saves, too. Sometimes it's just luck.

[Killer Angel]

Also note that sleeping people get Reflex saves, too. Sometimes it's just luck.

...but their Dex is considered 0 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#helpless).
Indeed, they need luck to make that ST.

[Runestar]

...but their Dex is considered 0 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#helpless).
Indeed, they need luck to make that ST.

And evasion does not apply.

[Project_Cobalt]

A simple houserule I just thought of that could be very interesting. Ok, how about this.
Whenever evasion is used, the character rapidly jumps outside the blastrange. This either means any (freely chosen) direction, or if the character succeeds a jump check, straight up in the air.


This is something I thought about while watching two level 20 wizard & sorcerer go at each other with fireballs. They were essencially able to evade them by jumping at the right time.
Now this was in Dungeons and Dragons Online, which was realtime, and fireballs explode on impact (i.e, evade the ball = evade the explosion).

And isn't basically that what evasion is? You jump/evade so quickly that you entirely get out of the blast? So shouldn't you also END UP where you jumped? I don't know why this isn't the case, especially since it otherwise allows for absurdities like evading a 25x25ft fireball in a 25x25ft room.
With this, such absurdities are avoided, since if you can't get out of the blast range you don't get evasion, (you still get only half damage as per usual).

There's actually a feat for something like that in the Complete Adventurer. It's called Dive for Cover. It let's you reroll a failed reflex save, taking the second result, and falling prone.

[Curmudgeon]

And evasion does not apply.
And that gets to the kernel of difference for evasion: it's consciously twitching, jerking, dodging, or whatever to reduce damage even further, when luck alone would already discount half the damage you could take. But having to leave a closed room when one spear drops in each 5' square? No, that's too much. A gelatinous cube, which fills all of its 4 squares, doesn't get evasion and so can't evade the spear trap damage. An agile Rogue doesn't fill up its square and can generally evade a dropping spear with no problem -- and doesn't need to leave the room to do it.

[Runestar]

A cube with rogue/monk lvs would get evasion though. Interesting to picture how it might succeed on a reflex save...:smallamused:

Even if its reflex saves are not up to par, you can always tack on martial adept lvs, or take martial study (action before thought), to be able to make a reflex save as a concentration check (and oozes often have excellent con scores). :smallcool:

[AslanCross]

Nope. But evasion is a non-magical effect, not time-traveling.

The show's about using slow-motion cameras to capture otherwise mundane events. It's not about time travel at all.

In any case, given how a fireball is an explosion without pressure, I think it pretty much defies the laws of physics as is. I don't see the need for being nitpicky about the quick guy being lucky at finding voids in the explosion or simply making himself as flat as he can and escaping with nothing more than singed hair.

Having to use this houserule would make even less sense with spells like scintillating sphere and vitriolic sphere, which seem even less able to produce a perfectly solid sphere of magical energy. The first I imagine to be similar to whole bunch of static discharges coming from a single point, arcing around (and thus not a solid, unavoidable shape), while the vitriolic sphere would be splashes of acid and whatnot.

Besides, I think rolling the dice for a spell pretty much shows us that the spell does not produce a uniform effect.

Finally, (Ex) abilities, by definition, can break the laws of physics. (Check the SRD for the actual wording) Does a troll growing back an entire arm--flesh and bones and blood vessels and nerves--in mere minutes sound "logical" to you? That's an (Ex) ability too.

I think this is just more trouble than it's worth and might actually end up getting the rogue killed in certain cases. (Standing on a narrow ledge, the rogue gets hit by a fireball. He makes a reflex save to get out of the way, makes it, so he jumps--to his death.)

[Curmudgeon]

A cube with rogue/monk lvs would get evasion though.
That's not going to happen without a rules waiver. Gelatinous cubes have Intelligence 0.
A character with Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma 0 is unconscious. And we know that unconscious characters don't get evasion.

[Greenish]

You might lose your eyebrows, but don't suffer any significant damage.There's a rules contradiction with that:

Rule of Cool says you don't lose your eyebrows.
Rule of Funny says you do lose them.
How can this ever be settled?!

[Curmudgeon]

There's a rules contradiction with that:

Rule of Cool says you don't lose your eyebrows.
Rule of Funny says you do lose them.
How can this ever be settled?!
In this case "rule of cool" would have you lose all your hair, and look really scary as a consequence.

[Killer Angel]

Rule of Cool says you don't lose your eyebrows.
Rule of Funny says you do lose them.
How can this ever be settled?!

You lose your eyebrows.
Then you pick your dark sunglasses. :smallcool:

[Runestar]

That's not going to happen without a rules waiver. Gelatinous cubes have Intelligence 0. And we know that unconscious characters don't get evasion.

Int "-" =/= Int 0.

The fiendish template would give the cube an int score of 3, sufficient for it to take class lvs.

[Curmudgeon]

Int "-" =/= Int 0.
Huh. Guess I just found an error in the d20srd entry (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ooze.htm#gelatinousCube). I know the difference, thanks.

[AslanCross]

Huh. Guess I just found an error in the d20srd entry (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ooze.htm#gelatinousCube). I know the difference, thanks.

The SRD uses the null set symbol for nonscores. It's not a 0.

[Curmudgeon]

The SRD uses the null set symbol for nonscores. It's not a 0.
I guess it's discernible if you don't override the font choices. Personally, I like my zero characters with a slash in them. Oh, well.

[Volthawk]

I guess it's discernible if you don't override the font choices. Personally, I like my zero characters with a slash in them. Oh, well.

Erm...

They do have a slash in them

Ø
/\
||
I'm pretty sure that has a slash.

[Curmudgeon]

Ø
/\
||
I'm pretty sure that has a slash.
That's the null character (Ø), not zero (0). In my preferred (programmer-friendly) font the zeroes (0) have slashes to distinguish them from capital "o" (O), among other features. However, this font choice instead makes the more common zero character resemble the rarer null symbol.

[Volthawk]

That's the null character (Ø), not zero (0). In my preferred (programmer-friendly) font the zeroes (0) have slashes to distinguish them from capital "o" (O), among other features. However, this font choice instead makes the more common zero character resemble the rarer null symbol.

Oh, right. Those zeroes. Gotcha.