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View Full Version : Suggested Classes for Non-Magic Campaign - 3.5E



kawaiijutsu
2010-03-25, 05:59 PM
Hey,
I'm gonna try running a non-magic one shot with my group, and was looking for some suggested classes for them. I'm not that familiar with all the books, though I do have access to all of them in pdf. They've never done anything like this before, and most are used to just spamming magic or looking for the cheap way out. I'm sending them through a puzzle-type dungeon, to help them learn to think of more interesting solutions than "blast, kill, get treasure". Any suggestions?

Godskook
2010-03-25, 06:01 PM
Uh....how non-magic do you want to make it?

Human Paragon 3
2010-03-25, 06:01 PM
I assume that also means no psionics, no binders, no warlocks etc? If not, I would recommend all of the above in addition to the material in Tome of Battle.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-03-25, 06:02 PM
Hey,
I'm gonna try running a non-magic one shot with my group, and was looking for some suggested classes for them. I'm not that familiar with all the books, though I do have access to all of them in pdf. They've never done anything like this before, and most are used to just spamming magic or looking for the cheap way out. I'm sending them through a puzzle-type dungeon, to help them learn to think of more interesting solutions than "blast, kill, get treasure". Any suggestions?

That may prove to be particular to your group, then, as the options available to people without magic are infinitesimally small compared to those who have the touch of the supernatural in them.

Godskook
2010-03-25, 06:06 PM
That may prove to be particular to your group, then, as the options available to people without magic are infinitesimally small compared to those who have the touch of the supernatural in them.

Seconding this.

Also, what kinds of PCs do your players typically field? Specifically, what type of casters? Are you seeing a lot of blaster-wizards and heal-bots, or what?

Emmerask
2010-03-25, 06:06 PM
I assume no tob either?
otherwise all the tob classes and one with rogue dip :-P

Eldariel
2010-03-25, 06:20 PM
I suggest:
Warblade (basically Fighter, Barbarian and all derivatives fall here)
Swordsage (basically Rogue, Monk, Ninja and all derivatives fall here)
Crusader (basically Fighter, Paladin and all derivatives fall here)
Sublime Way Ranger (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19519074/Sublime_Way_Variant_Ranger) (duh)
Sublime Way Marshal (http://web.archive.org/web/20070221040553/http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=752414) (covers the Bard/Marshal role quite well)

Feel free to allow non-Adept classes (sublime way Factotum and Swordsage with Trapfinding should probably be added to cover that, or remove necessity of Trapfinding for finding traps altogether) and vary the skill lists & armor proficiencies as desired, but as far as variety goes, ToB is a tremendous resource. Use the various Martial Compendium (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19525674/Martial_Compendium) resources and other homebrew to fill in blanks for what players want and you're est.

We're playing a no-magic campaign right now and I'm playing a Sublime Way Ranger and having a blast. The other player is a standard Rogue and isn't complaining.


And yeah, since magical armor bonuses don't exist, use Defense Bonus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/defenseBonus.htm) instead (add classes as you see fit or give all good progression), and since healing HP is nigh' impossible, use Vitality Point/Wound Point System (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/vitalityAndWoundPoints.htm); as Vitality Points pretty much aren't real cuts and regenerate quickly, it prevents adventuring from becoming the kind of "once fight per day"-affair.

Alter them all as necessary (varying degrees of VP damage giving you penalties to represent getting fatigued and all, WP damage being able to deal limb damage from a table and so on) and you've got ingredients for an awesome campaign. Oh, and give everyone more skill points, feats & stat increases to make up for lacking magical ways of pumping them. I'm fan of those changes even in magical campaigns and they're just emphasized in non-magical ones.

Say, 2 feats on 1st and 1/2 levels, stat increases on every level (but same stat increasable only once per 3 levels or so), 6 extra skill points per class or so. Something like that.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and remove all Su-abilities from ToB (mostly affects Swordsage, give them some nice homebrew school instead; oh, and refluff as possible), limit all the martial adept healing abilities to restoring Vitality Points only and make wounds (that is, WP damage) bleed or something until bandaged.

And make Heal-skill matter more; things like saving damaged limbs, stopping bleeding and keeping battered (0 WP) character on their feet should all be uses of Heal. As it's now the only way of doing all that, it suddenly becomes valuable.

EDIT#2: Oh, and by all that's holy, use some homebrew version of Poisons!

EDIT#3: Oh, and ungimp TWF by combining the TWF feats into one. Hell, allow moving and full attacking while at it; won't break anything but will make TWF and melee more interesting.

S&B is actually quite fine in no-magic world since most of the attacks that ignore shield aren't there and there are less characters worth protecting in the party so you should probably be targeted if you're in the front. Though giving the ability to block hits to adjacent squares with shield is probably still a good idea.

Frozen_Feet
2010-03-25, 06:22 PM
Everything of tier 4 and below, really. Will lead to weak characters, though, so be wary.

kawaiijutsu
2010-03-25, 06:59 PM
Thank you all for all the advice!! Here's some of the info you asked for:


Uh....how non-magic do you want to make it?
Pretty non-magic. No magic items, classes, potions, etc. I might look into allowing a modified version of an Alchemist, but I'm undecided on that just now.


I assume that also means no psionics, no binders, no warlocks etc?
Yep. None of that. I particularly dislike psionics :P But I think I'll allow Tomb of Battle...I'm going to look at it more tonight.


Seconding this. Also, what kinds of PCs do your players typically field?
Generally, anything that lets them stand out in that campaigns universe as TEH HERO to rule them all. They literally say things like "yeah, i can do this whole thing all by myself, i don't need the rest of you." They don't do healbots, as they thought clerics could only cast Heal ___ spells. I was then told to never play Cleric again, as "it's making the campaigns last longer than 3 sessions because they're not dying, and we don't know where to take the story beyond that." The DMs they have had for a while generally don't like to do anything except make monsters, so they're not used to a challenge that isn't in the context of battle. Roleplaying is met with scoffs and derision, as it makes you stand out and "creates tension between the players because they are battling for seniority", as a player put it. Hence, my desire to make a dungeon with more puzzle type aspects to it, and roleplaying and flavor stuff outside of combat. They liked the previous one I did, I just wanted to try one without magic for the extra challenge to them. One of them particularly likes playing skill monkies, but in general, they like playing things that will let them do 30 damage minimum on every hit they make. Casters are always the blasty type, anything with fire damage makes them happy.

I'm going to make them higher level, obviously, so that they don't insta-die in battle as they don't have heal potions. I haven't decided what level yet, I was going to see what classes they were looking at and pick a level that would make it challenging, yet doable. The goal isn't to kill them here :P Sorry if I seem like a bit of a noob...I've only DMed twice before, and while I'm familiar with the core books, I'm only a little familiar with the other expansion books >< I simply haven't had the time to go through them all.

EDIT: They also have an affinity towards Handy Haversacks and relying on alternate planes, etc. Hence, the desire to make them think carefully about the items they take with them, and introduce to them the concept of a weight limit :P

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-25, 07:06 PM
I suggest a Shadowcaster! I mean, the abilities are just Spell-like, it's not really magic! :smallwink:

Eldariel
2010-03-25, 07:21 PM
For non-magic, I propose you make it a priority to familiarize yourself with ToB. As far as I'm concerned, that's the only book you need to know outside Core for a no-magic campaign. Well, Complete Scoundrel is a second good book for such a campaign (skill tricks are just so hot), but Tome of Battle really makes martial combat more interesting.

InkEyes
2010-03-25, 08:48 PM
It might just be simpler to use a system that doesn't have magic in it rather than worry about all the little supernatural quirks of D&D. D20 Modern/Past/Future is nearly identical to 3.5 in mechanics and magic is optional in it. Or maybe the players would prefer Risk? It feeds their egomaniacal needs, lets them roll dice, and doesn't have any of that fussy roleplaying. :smalltongue:

If you do stick with D&D you'll probably need to examine the standard challenge rating of monsters you put in the game. Especially at mid-to-high levels, the Designers assumed that you'd have magical equipment and spells to defeat monsters with. So they matched that with lots of mundane invulnerability and spell casting creatures. Also, as others have said, Complete Scoundrel is a great pairing with ToB if you're running a low/no magic game. Skill tricks are fun additions to the game.

If you'd like to encourage roleplaying in the game you could try adding mechanical benefits to a character for having a background and personality. Flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm) and traits (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterTraits.htm) are a good start, though the negatives flaws give are usually a bit pathetic for the bonus of an extra feat. Giving bonuses to skills they might have used in their background or region of origin can help. Better yet, giving out magical rewards for excellent roleplaying in an otherwise non-magical game would be great motivation.

If you were willing integrate action points (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/actionPoints.htm) into the game you could also hand out a point or two as a reward for good roleplaying. Action points are also helpful to players in a scenario where they won't be able to magically heal and can't rely on spells to buff their skill checks. Giving out similar rewards for cooperative work will also encourage a cohesive party.

You could also point out that blasting is the least viable of a Wizard's options (especially if they're doing a paltry 30 fire damage) but I can understand why you'd avoid opening the can of worms that is the Batman Wizard.

kawaiijutsu
2010-03-26, 12:07 AM
I'm going to stick with DnD 3.5, and using the advice from a 3E book on how to make a non-magic/low-magic campaign. I'm thinking the roleplaying might go easier if there's rewards for it in campaign...they generally respond if I throw something in that was made just for their characters. Thanks for all the advice though!!

Godskook
2010-03-26, 01:15 AM
Generally, anything that lets them stand out in that campaigns universe as TEH HERO to rule them all. They literally say things like "yeah, i can do this whole thing all by myself, i don't need the rest of you." They don't do healbots, as they thought clerics could only cast Heal ___ spells. I was then told to never play Cleric again, as "it's making the campaigns last longer than 3 sessions because they're not dying, and we don't know where to take the story beyond that." The DMs they have had for a while generally don't like to do anything except make monsters, so they're not used to a challenge that isn't in the context of battle. Roleplaying is met with scoffs and derision, as it makes you stand out and "creates tension between the players because they are battling for seniority", as a player put it. Hence, my desire to make a dungeon with more puzzle type aspects to it, and roleplaying and flavor stuff outside of combat. They liked the previous one I did, I just wanted to try one without magic for the extra challenge to them. One of them particularly likes playing skill monkies, but in general, they like playing things that will let them do 30 damage minimum on every hit they make. Casters are always the blasty type, anything with fire damage makes them happy.

I'm going to make them higher level, obviously, so that they don't insta-die in battle as they don't have heal potions. I haven't decided what level yet, I was going to see what classes they were looking at and pick a level that would make it challenging, yet doable. The goal isn't to kill them here :P Sorry if I seem like a bit of a noob...I've only DMed twice before, and while I'm familiar with the core books, I'm only a little familiar with the other expansion books >< I simply haven't had the time to go through them all.

EDIT: They also have an affinity towards Handy Haversacks and relying on alternate planes, etc. Hence, the desire to make them think carefully about the items they take with them, and introduce to them the concept of a weight limit :P

Given this, a low-magic system sounds like a bad idea, IMHO. Barbarian already sounds like their favorite class, so developing a campaign world where he's one of the highest tiered classes out there seems like an extremely bad idea. Instead, you might want to consider going into the other extreme and go full-monty into the Tippy Universe or the Reign of the Emerald Legion. And then there's the Tomb of Horrors, something I personally don't usually recommend, but your group seems to call out for it like a troll calls out to be perma-banned.

I mean, melee has one suit that it keeps up with magic in, and that's damage, and that's the suit your players emphasize. Don't cut out 90% of the things they don't appreciate while leaving the few classes they already do.

Also, Handy Haversacks are pretty standard for characters over about L5 or so. Encumbrance really only ever is a concern for low-level characters in D&D.

Satyr
2010-03-26, 01:37 AM
May I humbly suggest to take a look at Serpents and Sewers (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Serpents_and_Sewers)? It was playtested to work well without any form of magic and it includes still more than enough character options even if you drop any non-human species and all spellcasters from the game by offering alternative layers which make the characters more individual.

kawaiijutsu
2010-03-26, 05:07 PM
Given this, a low-magic system sounds like a bad idea, IMHO. Barbarian already sounds like their favorite class, so developing a campaign world where he's one of the highest tiered classes out there seems like an extremely bad idea. Instead, you might want to consider going into the other extreme and go full-monty into the Tippy Universe or the Reign of the Emerald Legion. And then there's the Tomb of Horrors, something I personally don't usually recommend, but your group seems to call out for it like a troll calls out to be perma-banned.

I mean, melee has one suit that it keeps up with magic in, and that's damage, and that's the suit your players emphasize. Don't cut out 90% of the things they don't appreciate while leaving the few classes they already do.

Also, Handy Haversacks are pretty standard for characters over about L5 or so. Encumbrance really only ever is a concern for low-level characters in D&D.

We just got done with a 3-4 month long campaign that was RETARDED in the level of magic...it became so pointless because the magic could literally do anything. In the end, the DM basically gave a rather unsatisfactory ending, saying all magic was then basically Rule 0, didn't matter what it had done before, he now says it does this, and basically killed half the party and railroaded the rest. We've had another DM friend of mine come and run the tomb of horrors, another party member and myself survived lol (though doomed to live on a hill forever). None of them actually has expressed interest in playing a Barbarian, because they know what my previous puzzle dungeon was like, and they know that sheer strength is only going to help them in the most basic of senses.
Specifically, I was looking for advice on classes that were no magic from books outside of the PHB, or classes that didn't require much modification to make no magic. Since this is a one-shot, it doesn't truly offend me if they want to play Rambo, though I'm glad to see they seem to actually be choosing not to. In a full on campaign, yeah, I'd be more concerned about it, but for a one-shot, they can have their fun lol. With that being said, anyone else have any favorite classes that are no-magic or close to it?

EDIT: I'm not cutting out most of what they enjoy...as I said before, they did enjoy my last campaign where battle was not an emphasis. It's not that they don't like it, it's that their normal DMs are not able to come up with material outside of that, so they aren't used to it. When I ran a dungeon like this before, they liked it quite a bit. My goal here is to give them an alternate campaign from what they've been playing for 4-5 years now. I've told them all it's no-magic, and they were all intrigued. I was simply wanting advice on classes to suggest to them, so they have some starting places to look at. That being said, I really appreciate Eldariel's advice on some things to look at for a non-magic campaign, as those are helpful points.

arguskos
2010-03-26, 05:15 PM
Hi there!! Been awhile, hasn't it. Glad to see you around, kawaiijutu. :smallsmile:

Also, Godskook, Tomb of Horrors is a TERRIBLE choice for this group. I was there when it happened (cause I ran it). It didn't end well. :smallsigh:

For a true non-magic (and non-magical subsystem) game, I'd probably roll with Fighters, magic-less Rangers, Barbarians, Rogues, magic-less Bards, and maybe a few other classes (Scout comes to mind as well).

For a one-shot, I'd definitely add Scout, Samurai (I dunno, someone might want to play one), magic-less Ranger/Bard, Marshal, and maybe magic-less Hexblade (that's a stretch, but it might work). Oh, and Ninja maybe.

EDIT: Yeah, Eldarial's a good dude. Listen to him. :smallwink:

kawaiijutsu
2010-03-26, 05:18 PM
Hi there!! Been awhile, hasn't it. Glad to see you around, kawaiijutu. :smallsmile:

Also, Godskook, Tomb of Horrors is a TERRIBLE choice for this group. I was there when it happened (cause I ran it). It didn't end well. :smallsigh:

For a true non-magic (and non-magical subsystem) game, I'd probably roll with Fighters, magic-less Rangers, Barbarians, Rogues, magic-less Bards, and maybe a few other classes (Scout comes to mind as well).

For a one-shot, I'd definitely add Scout, Samurai (I dunno, someone might want to play one), magic-less Ranger/Bard, Marshal, and maybe magic-less Hexblade (that's a stretch, but it might work). Oh, and Ninja maybe.

EDIT: Yeah, Eldarial's a good dude. Listen to him. :smallwink:

Adam, you are amazing :P I was REALLY confused at first when I read "been a while, hasn't it?" :P

arguskos
2010-03-26, 05:27 PM
Adam, you are amazing :P I was REALLY confused at first when I read "been a while, hasn't it?" :P
Yeah, I'm like that. :smallcool:

Anyways, so, you're stepping into the chair again? Good job. Steph has as well, making it so we're all DMing now. If you need anything, feel free to inquire with the fine folks on this board (they're pretty cool guys) or PM me anytime.