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mummy162
2010-03-25, 10:22 PM
I recently dug up Complete Arcane and saw that there was a least invocations that basically gave you a +6 bonus on 3 skills, and there was a lesser invocation that let you fly! At will! Am I missing something, or do warlocks really give you the ability to fly at will at 6th level? Not to mention there are other least invocations that give you darkvision or the ability to use summon swarm at will.

Lin Bayaseda
2010-03-25, 10:42 PM
Yes, he can fly at will. But on level 6, that'll be the only Lesser Invocation he knows (the rest will be Least). A wizard of the same level is likely to know Fly as well as Fireball, and whatnot. Also, a level 6 Druid can fly at will in Wild Shape, and we all know it's no big deal. EDIT: In fact, if he has Natural Spell, he can fly and Call Lightning, how's that?

As for Summon Swarm, he needs to concentrate on it (unlike the Wizard version, which continues beyond concentration), so can't do anything else. Good, but not overly so.

mummy162
2010-03-25, 10:44 PM
Also, a level 6 Druid can fly at will in Wild Shape, and we all know it's no big deal.


True, but the Druid is, well, THE DRUID.

Lysander
2010-03-25, 10:53 PM
The way warlocks were first described to me was "if you're not continuously flying, invisible, and raining death down on your enemies you're doing it wrong"

It might seem very impressive to be able to use what is mostly the equivalent of low to mid level spells at will, but warlocks end up weaker than most casters in the long run since they don't get the equivalent of high level spells.

randomhero00
2010-03-25, 11:03 PM
Warlocks look awesome on paper, and while fun to play for a bit (they get dry as you tend to do the same thing over and over) they are no where near the same tier as full casters. Even though you can have teleport and fly at will how often do you really need it? How often are you in a cramped space where it doesn't matter? It ends up being surprisingly often.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-25, 11:03 PM
True, but the Druid is, well, THE DRUID.

Flight at will is available at 1st level. As is a 10ft Dimension Door. Better flight is available at 5th level or 6th level (the 6th level version costs 2 Dex, but gives 2 Con).



Seriously, if you think Flight at Will at 6th level is enough to warrant a Reaction Shot you've got a lot more to worry about.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-03-25, 11:54 PM
I recently dug up Complete Arcane and saw that there was a least invocations that basically gave you a +6 bonus on 3 skills, and there was a lesser invocation that let you fly! At will! Am I missing something, or do warlocks really give you the ability to fly at will at 6th level? Not to mention there are other least invocations that give you darkvision or the ability to use summon swarm at will.

Bonuses to skills is passe, particularly since those are mostly cross-class skills anyways.

Flying at will is no biggie by level 6. Any caster can easily manage the same thing at the same level.

Summon Swarm is also not as powerful as you think, because you have to maintain concentration to keep controlling it.

Darkvision comes free of charge with many racial packages, therefore is not particularly overpowered from a Least invocation.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-25, 11:59 PM
Summon Swarm is also not as powerful as you think, because you have to maintain concentration to keep controlling it.


You can't control summoned swarms, it says so in the spell. The Invocation is identical to the spell, thus not even a Warlock can control them.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-03-26, 12:03 AM
You can't control summoned swarms, it says so in the spell. The Invocation is identical to the spell, thus not even a Warlock can control them.

Try again. Read Complete Arcane page 135. Duration is Concentration rather than Concentration + 2 rounds. In other words, you stop concentrating on it, you loose it completely.

Tokiko Mima
2010-03-26, 12:09 AM
How good Warlock/Invocation users are versus full casters usually depends on the total number of actions in a typical combat, and how many encounters per day the GM likes to use.

A typical D&D encounter with 4+ players rarely exceeds 3-5 rounds (longer and you'll probably have PC's dying/players getting bored,) and 3 encounters per day is the gold standard advised by the DMG.

At 6th-7th level a Wizard has enough spells to be casting a 1st level or higher spell every round and not run out of memorized spells, so they have effectively limitless casting reserves for combat, better spell selection, and more options which they can adjust daily as the situation warrants.

Now, if your DM makes encounters last longer, or there is going to be 5 or more encounters per day, then the Warlock is more on an even footing, at least until parity is achieved with the total spells per day. However, the weaker invocations available to Warlocks in general mean that it's unlikely the the Warlock will ever end up superior to a moderately skilled Wizard.

Also, don't be fooled about the Summon Swarm invocation being inferior to the Druid or Wizard spell because it's duration is less. A summoned swarm is not under the control of it's summoner; the duration being more than concentration just gives the spell a chance to backfire on it's caster. Warlocks do not have this problem, because if the swarm tries to attack them they just need to end concentration to cause the swarm to disperse. Summon Swarm is perhaps the most powerful level one Warlock invocation, because of it's shapable area effect, automatic damage and multitude of save or sucks the target(s) must make. It's just too bad the damage and saves don't scale at all, so Summmon Swarm is only good for the first few levels.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-03-26, 12:20 AM
Also, don't be fooled about the Summon Swarm invocation being inferior to the Druid or Wizard spell because it's duration is less. A summoned swarm is not under the control of it's summoner; the duration being more than concentration just gives the spell a chance to backfire on it's caster. Warlocks do not have this problem, because if the swarm tries to attack them they just need to end concentration to cause the swarm to disperse. Summon Swarm is perhaps the most powerful level one Warlock invocation, because of it's shapable area effect, automatic damage and multitude of save or sucks the target(s) must make. It's just too bad the damage and saves don't scale at all, so Summmon Swarm is only good for the first few levels.

The problem is that only the Spider Swarm has any kind of save that matters in combat, and the DC is 11. So even level 1 encounters have even odds of making their save, with a +0 to the save. So it's not exactly that strong...

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-26, 12:39 AM
Try again. Read Complete Arcane page 135. Duration is Concentration rather than Concentration + 2 rounds. In other words, you stop concentrating on it, you loose it completely.

OK, that doesn't mean the Warlock can control the summoned swarms. Both the spell and the invocation grant no control over the summoned swarms other than placement when first summoned.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-03-26, 12:41 AM
OK, that doesn't mean the Warlock can control the summoned swarms. Both the spell and the invocation grant no control over the summoned swarms other than placement when first summoned.

Sort of. By virtue of being able to cancel the spell at any time, simply by stopping concentration, it can be controlled by virtue of getting rid of it if it wanders somewhere you'd prefer it not be, and summoning a new one where you would prefer it to be. It's not like you run out of uses, after all.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-26, 12:53 AM
Sort of. By virtue of being able to cancel the spell at any time, simply by stopping concentration, it can be controlled by virtue of getting rid of it if it wanders somewhere you'd prefer it not be, and summoning a new one where you would prefer it to be. It's not like you run out of uses, after all.

As true as that is, it still gets a full round's worth of time.



Funny though, it's best for the swarm to not use it's distraction on the Warlock who summoned it.

Innis Cabal
2010-03-26, 01:01 AM
To bad its not smart enough to know that.

Tokiko Mima
2010-03-26, 01:30 AM
The problem is that only the Spider Swarm has any kind of save that matters in combat, and the DC is 11. So even level 1 encounters have even odds of making their save, with a +0 to the save. So it's not exactly that strong...

While I admit there is limited utility in disease and poison (alas) they all have the Distraction ability, which generates nausea (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#nauseated) for one round, effectively crippling the victim and preventing them from being able to retreat, charge, double move, cast, attack, or take attacks of opportunity.

The Bat Swarm's wounding makes a difference at lower levels where the Warlock is likely to be fielding this invocation. Spread across many enemies, this can be a deciding factor in a long battle. At the very least, you buy a standard action from them as they Heal check themselves (and it's possible for them to fail.)

The saves are low, but keep in mind, you're spreading this spell across 4 squares, so as many as 4 different targets might be effected. Odds are at least one opponent will fail their save, and then you've done damage and eliminated an opponent for the next round. Failing even that, you are guarranteed a hit for damage at a level where a fighter usually only has a 50% chance or less to connect with a weapon.

Tokiko Mima
2010-03-26, 01:57 AM
As true as that is, it still gets a full round's worth of time.

True, but the spell description states that it attacks "all other creature in it's area." Since it can only attack at the end of the move action, the spell would seem to imply that the swarm always ends it's move on any spaces which contain creatures it was initially summoned into.

It is only allowed to pursue if there is "no living creatures are in it's area," meaning you either cast the spell on an area with no living creatures, (why?) the creatures have moved away on their turns, or the initial targets have been slain. By that time a Warlock should have a chance to end concentration and recast somewhere else. It's very controllable in this manner... you almost never want to concentrate on Summon Swarm except in very rare cases (you are being grappled and are immune to the swarms damage, you are using the swarm to attack a commoner level village and want them to be able to move out of Close Range, etc.)