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Trekkin
2010-03-26, 02:06 AM
Psicrystals, as they gain Hit Dice, gain feats. They also never own anything, so by RAW couldn't one take Vow of Poverty? It occurs to me that this is an excellent way to buff a psicrystal for independent use, and perhaps give it Vow of Peace, Nimbus of Light, and Stigmata along the line for their various bonii. Stigmata in particular would give you infinite healing once an hour, by causing Con drain on something with no Con...

What do you think? Hilarously cheesy or interesting way of flavoring a Good character who, for whatever reasons, projected the best of him/herself as an independent entity?

And if one qualifies as a Saint, what happens to the owner?

Zergrusheddie
2010-03-26, 02:13 AM
Mechanically, it could be decent.

However, from an RP standard, it would not work. A psicrystal is part of your mental capabilities crystallized into a material form. It is hard to say why a psicrystal would be a devout ascetic when the creator is using enough items to fuel a small war.

Also, depending how your GM says psicrystal works (I've heard some saying that it costs gold to replace so to stop the tactic of sending the psicrystal on suicide missions) they might say that the psicrystal is a possession and is unable to use VoP because it 'possesses' itself.

Best of luck.
-Eddie

PhoenixRivers
2010-03-26, 02:22 AM
Mechanically, it could be decent.

However, from an RP standard, it would not work. A psicrystal is part of your mental capabilities crystallized into a material form. It is hard to say why a psicrystal would be a devout ascetic when the creator is using enough items to fuel a small war.

Also, depending how your GM says psicrystal works (I've heard some saying that it costs gold to replace so to stop the tactic of sending the psicrystal on suicide missions) they might say that the psicrystal is a possession and is unable to use VoP because it 'possesses' itself.

Best of luck.
-Eddie

Psicrystals take only a small sliver of your personality. One that say, espoused charity could well be a devout ascetic.

cheezewizz2000
2010-03-26, 04:06 AM
I don't know the psychic rules very well (read: at all), but I'll weigh in with my 2 coppers anyway.

For a vow in which you swear off an action to mean something, you have to actually be capable of the action you are swearing off for it to mean something. Preists' vows of celebacy mean something because they are capable of having sex. If they vowed to never leap over buildings, it would mean nothing as they are incapable of doing that in the first place.

I don't think a psycrystal could own anything, so vowing that it never would is meaningless. But that's a fluff concern. By RAW, you're probably good to go.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-26, 04:16 AM
Remember that a VoP character can't even pick up magic items.

It's also not RAW that you get to build your own familiar/psicrystal.

Optimystik
2010-03-26, 05:12 AM
They share your alignment, so as long as you're good, this should work fine.


Remember that a VoP character can't even pick up magic items.

That's not exactly true. They only can't "use, borrow or own "magic items. There's nothing in there about not being able to touch/carry them. If RAI was that they couldn't even touch them, you wouldn't be allowed to take a friend's potion to drink it, but you are.

And even if you rule that they can't, I'm not sure how this would greatly impede a psicrystal anyway.


Also, depending how your GM says psicrystal works (I've heard some saying that it costs gold to replace so to stop the tactic of sending the psicrystal on suicide missions) they might say that the psicrystal is a possession and is unable to use VoP because it 'possesses' itself.

By RAW, you can replace it for free (you still have the feat, thus you still gain the benefits). Even if the DM rules that you can't, just Psychic Reformation and retake the feat if you lose your psicrystal.

TheMadLinguist
2010-03-26, 05:54 AM
Psicrystals take only a small sliver of your personality. One that say, espoused charity could well be a devout ascetic.

"I crystallized all my charitable feelings into this rock. Now I don't donate money to anybody"

Kobold-Bard
2010-03-26, 06:37 AM
Not sure about the rest of it, but IIRC if something doesn't have a Con Score, it can't use powers that would drain it (thinking of Hellfire Warlock here).

Do Psicrystals count as possessions if the Psion themselves wanted to take VoP?

Starbuck_II
2010-03-26, 06:45 AM
Class features/feats never count as possessions.

Jack_Simth
2010-03-26, 06:49 AM
Psicrystals, as they gain Hit Dice, gain feats. They also never own anything, so by RAW couldn't one take Vow of Poverty? It occurs to me that this is an excellent way to buff a psicrystal for independent use, and perhaps give it Vow of Peace, Nimbus of Light, and Stigmata along the line for their various bonii. Stigmata in particular would give you infinite healing once an hour, by causing Con drain on something with no Con...

What do you think? Hilarously cheesy or interesting way of flavoring a Good character who, for whatever reasons, projected the best of him/herself as an independent entity?

Cheesy. You're spending one feat to gain the benefits of a rather large amount of equipment... without the penalties that are supposed to come with it. As a DM, I wouldn't allow it. I might permit it (as a DM) if the character kept to the Vow as well. Otherwise, not so much.



And if one qualifies as a Saint, what happens to the owner?
Nothing much; it doesn't matter, as Psicrystals don't gain levels, so they don't gain templates.

Alternately, you lose the psicrystal as it parts ways with you and goes to run a crusade of one form or another.

Optimystik
2010-03-26, 07:30 AM
Cheesy. You're spending one feat to gain the benefits of a rather large amount of equipment... without the penalties that are supposed to come with it. As a DM, I wouldn't allow it. I might permit it (as a DM) if the character kept to the Vow as well. Otherwise, not so much.

We're talking RAW though, not reasonableness. RAW it would work.


Nothing much; it doesn't matter, as Psicrystals don't gain levels, so they don't gain templates.

Doesn't gaining HD count though? I've never been clear on that.

PhoenixRivers
2010-03-26, 08:10 AM
Nothing much; it doesn't matter, as Psicrystals don't gain levels, so they don't gain templates.

Wolves don't gain levels either, just HD. Yet, you can have a celestial wolf.

No, the real barrier is that the Saint template may only be added to a LIVING creature. Psicrystals are constructs, which are not living.

Lysander
2010-03-26, 08:36 AM
Check this:


Because it is an extension of its creator’s personality, a character’s psicrystal is in some ways a part of him. That’s why, for example, a psionic character can manifest a personal range power on his psicrystal even though normally he can manifest such a power only on himself.

So if a psicrystal is part of the character, therefore wouldn't anything the character owns in some ways also belong to the psicrystal?

Optimystik
2010-03-26, 08:50 AM
So if a psicrystal is part of the character, therefore wouldn't anything the character owns in some ways also belong to the psicrystal?

The key word there is "some."

I'd say sharing your personality and your possessions are two very different things.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2010-03-26, 09:04 AM
...I have a wonderful idea now for a Neutral (bordering on Evil) Psion who has, after some traumatic event in his past, channeled all remaining good emotions into a separate being (his Psi-crystal), allowing him to ignore sympathy and other good-aligned emotions. It would, of course, require some lenience with the rules, but the concept is awesome...

JeenLeen
2010-03-26, 09:06 AM
I think it should work mechanically, although it is cheesey and I'd assume against RAI.

However, as I think about it, what are the actual detriments of allowing this? The PC does not benefit from the abilities the psicrystal gains, so mostly it just makes a heartier psicrystal, one harder to destroy and with better stats. I forget if Vow of Poverty gives you any spell-like abilities, but that's the only thing I would really see effecting the PC or the rest of the party.

Edit: forgot the part about qualifying for Stigmata or other Exalted feats. Those might be broken... and how can a psicrystal bleed healing?

Optimystik
2010-03-26, 09:10 AM
...I have a wonderful idea now for a Neutral (bordering on Evil) Psion who has, after some traumatic event in his past, channeled all remaining good emotions into a separate being (his Psi-crystal), allowing him to ignore sympathy and other good-aligned emotions. It would, of course, require some lenience with the rules, but the concept is awesome...

Lenience is an understatement :smalltongue:

"Alignment: As Master" (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/psicrystal.htm)


I think it should work mechanically, although it is cheesey and I'd assume against RAI.

However, as I think about it, what are the actual detriments of allowing this? The PC does not benefit from the abilities the psicrystal gains, so mostly it just makes a heartier psicrystal, one harder to destroy and with better stats. I forget if Vow of Poverty gives you any spell-like abilities, but that's the only thing I would really see effecting the PC or the rest of the party.

No SLAs, but some nice (Su) like permanent True Seeing and (Ex) like permanent Freedom of Movement. But at the level your crystal would get the juicy stuff, the game is either close to being, or already broken anyway. True Seeing doesn't clock in until level 18, for example. :smallyuk:

alisbin
2010-03-26, 09:18 AM
psicrystal's already have a reduced form true seeing, they essentially have mindsight with a 30' (or 40' can't remember) range, so TS would only be an upgrade really.
anyway, RAW, i agree allows this, and their might be a fun RP effect for an experienced player (arguments with psicrystal, maybe even disobedience!), but i'd say that its not RAI and i probably wouldn't allow it in my game.

PhoenixRivers
2010-03-26, 09:19 AM
That's not exactly true. They only can't "use, borrow or own "magic items. There's nothing in there about not being able to touch/carry them. If RAI was that they couldn't even touch them, you wouldn't be allowed to take a friend's potion to drink it, but you are.

Slightly off. They may not use any magic item, ever. Not even if they take a cure light wounds potion off a fallen comrade to pour down his throat when he bleeds out.

In fact, there are two contradictory lines that can be resolved with a specific interpretation:


You may not use any magic item of any sort, though you can benefit from magic items used on your behalf

—you can drink a potion of cure serious wounds a friend gives you

Now, potions are magic items, so these two lines would seem to be contradictory.

Let's look deeper. The last line doesn't explicitly state you USE the potion, merely that you drink it. It doesn't say the friend places it, unused, in your hand. It could alternately be interpreted as "administers" or "feeds". With that, it could be taken to refer to the following text:

A character can carefully administer a potion to an unconscious creature as a full-round action, trickling the liquid down the creature’s throat. Likewise, it takes a full-round action to apply an oil to an unconscious creature.
In other words, you may receive the benefit of items, but may not personally hold any (with intent to use). This provides for a ruling that does not contradict any rule, to my knowledge.


psicrystal's already have a reduced form true seeing, they essentially have mindsight with a 30' (or 40' can't remember) range, so TS would only be an upgrade really.
anyway, RAW, i agree allows this, and their might be a fun RP effect for an experienced player (arguments with psicrystal, maybe even disobedience!), but i'd say that its not RAI and i probably wouldn't allow it in my game.
Not quite.


Sighted (Ex): Although it has no physical sensory organs,
a psicrystal can telepathically sense its environment as well
as a creature with normal vision and hearing. Darkness
(even supernatural darkness) is irrelevant, as are areas of
supernatural silence, though a psicrystal still can’t discern
invisible or ethereal beings. A psicrystal’s sighted range is
40 feet.It's telepathic, extraordinary, and functionally identical to normal vision and hearing, with the exceptions that it ignores darkness and magical silence. However, it explicitly doesn't bypass invisibility/ethereal, and makes no reference to bypassing illusions in general, or to bypassing the need for search and spot checks to locate creatures.

Lysander
2010-03-26, 09:29 AM
Yeah, but the psicrystal isn't just a copy of the caster. It continues to be part of them.

The other question is, if a psicrystal is in effect your property, does it not benefit from your possessions? Like, if you were using vow of poverty could you buy a massive stockpile of magic items, give them to some loyal servant, have him use their buffing and healing powers on you, but say "that isn't my item, he's holding it"? Another example is, could you use vow of poverty if you instead put all your expensive magical items on your mount?

Optimystik
2010-03-26, 09:39 AM
In other words, you may receive the benefit of items, but may not personally hold any (with intent to use). This provides for a ruling that does not contradict any rule, to my knowledge.

"Hold with intent to use" still doesn't clarify whether you're allowed to touch/carry them or not.

Besides, the point is moot - psicrystals can't carry anything, unless they use powers to move them around or something.


Yeah, but the psicrystal isn't just a copy of the caster. It continues to be part of them.

The other question is, if a psicrystal is in effect your property, does it not benefit from your possessions? Like, if you were using vow of poverty could you buy a massive stockpile of magic items, give them to some loyal servant, have him use their buffing and healing powers on you, but say "that isn't my item, he's holding it"? Another example is, could you use vow of poverty if you instead put all your expensive magical items on your mount?

I'm not sure why this analogy matters. You didn't take the Vow - your psicrystal did, so any items that get used on you are irrelevant.

Trekkin
2010-03-26, 09:45 AM
Now, what if you took Improved Psicrystal (or, more appropriately, Compound Psicrystal) and tried to argue that one's crystallized good and one's crystallized evil? A Neutral character with a familiar-analogue that has both Exalted and Vile feats...

I forgot, from an RP perspective this would allow hilarious shoulder-angel shoulder-devil antics, although from a more serious perspective I could see a TN psion trying to do this to better appreciate both moral perspectives on everything.

PhoenixRivers
2010-03-26, 10:04 AM
"Hold with intent to use" still doesn't clarify whether you're allowed to touch/carry them or not.There is no prohibition from holding items, or carrying them. You need to do that to donate and be charitable (which the feat calls for).

What is against the rules is using any item with intrinsic value not explicitly allowed. If you own something that is not allowed, and is not being donated, you violate the oath. If you take something magical that still belongs to another, you violate the oath (borrowing). From the time you take ownership of an item to the time you give it away, you must not use it.

Optimystik
2010-03-26, 10:17 AM
Now, what if you took Improved Psicrystal (or, more appropriately, Compound Psicrystal) and tried to argue that one's crystallized good and one's crystallized evil? A Neutral character with a familiar-analogue that has both Exalted and Vile feats...

I forgot, from an RP perspective this would allow hilarious shoulder-angel shoulder-devil antics, although from a more serious perspective I could see a TN psion trying to do this to better appreciate both moral perspectives on everything.

An Ardent can do an even better job with that concept, taking both the Good and Evil mantles for instance. (They can get psicrystals too.)

Mechanically, the psicrystal 'personalities' focus less on morality and more on sheer id. This is actually a good thing for your concept, because it means you can fluff any of them with moral overtones. For instance, a "Bully" could use its bluster to try and prevent conflict, or even browbeat you into upright moral behavior... or it could use it to tyrannize the weak and encourage you to do the same.


There is no prohibition from holding items, or carrying them. You need to do that to donate and be charitable (which the feat calls for).

What is against the rules is using any item with intrinsic value not explicitly allowed. If you own something that is not allowed, and is not being donated, you violate the oath. If you take something magical that still belongs to another, you violate the oath (borrowing). From the time you take ownership of an item to the time you give it away, you must not use it.

Oh, I agree with you - it was m9m's post I was disagreeing with, where she said that VoP characters "can't even pick up magic items," which I found an odd statement.

awa
2010-03-26, 10:22 AM
You have to donate treasure with a vow of poverty so you could not give treasure to an allies to use for you becuase you are required to donate all your treasure. The crystal would be required to have a share of the treasure to donate.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-26, 10:51 AM
A psicrystal is not an independent creature, they normally can't use equipment anyway, maybe you could slip ring over their crystal form so thats about it. But in essence they can't have possessions to begin with so they sacrifice nothing by taking the feat. Thus the mature roleplayer would say they gain nothing.

After all the BoE is intended for mature roll players, the kind of think more about the spirit of the rules and not the letter.
Letter=LE or LN[in the case of this debate LE]
Spirit=LG

Prime32
2010-03-26, 10:57 AM
A psicrystal is not an independent creature, they normally can't use equipment anyway, maybe you could slip ring over their crystal form so thats about it. But in essence they can't have possessions to begin with so they sacrifice nothing by taking the feat. Thus the mature roleplayer would say they gain nothing.

After all the BoE is intended for mature roll players, the kind of think more about the spirit of the rules and not the letter.
Letter=LE or LN[in the case of this debate LE]
Spirit=LGI find this rather offensive. That tag was only added so that it wouldn't "corrupt the youth" with ideas about what is good and evil, etc. Basically to keep Jack Chick at bay. Personally I find the idea of an evil character who has crystallised all of his goodness into an exalted crystal to be interesting, even though it goes against the rules.

Oh, and "roll players" are munchkins. I think you meant "role players". :smallwink:

The letter of the rules would be LN. The spirit of the rules would be LG. Subverting the spirit of the rules would be LE.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-26, 11:07 AM
I find this rather offensive. That tag was only added so that it wouldn't "corrupt the youth" with ideas about what is good and evil, etc. Basically to keep Jack Chick at bay. Personally I find the idea of an evil character who has crystallised all of his goodness into an exalted crystal to be interesting, even though it goes against the rules.

Oh, and "roll players" are munchkins. I think you meant "role players". :smallwink:

The letter of the rules would be LN. The spirit of the rules would be LG. Subverting the spirit of the rules would be LE.

The FAQ states and I quote

Remember that the Vow of Poverty feat, like most of the
material found in Book of Exalted Deeds, is intended for mature
campaigns that are capable of handling difficult role-playing
issues—it’s not intended for most hack-and-slash games.

So no its not some simple anti-Jack label, its an actually intention of the book, and even if someone crystallized there good into material form how could that let it take the feat? The VoP abilities are divinely granted, if the psicrystal fled its master refusing to serve then I see the potential but then its not serving as psicrystal anymore.

Optimystik
2010-03-26, 12:22 PM
Vukodlak is right - while I see no problem with having a Good Psicrystal take Exalted Feats, having you as its master be Evil at the same time stretches the bounds of credibility. Why would such a Psicrystal continue to serve you, and how would it stay Exalted if it did?

Exalted is a very high standard. You can fall even accidentally, or if under magical compulsion. Your Psicrystal being Good while you are Evil is one thing; having it be Exalted while you are Evil is a completely different animal.

Jack_Simth
2010-03-26, 05:31 PM
We're talking RAW though, not reasonableness. RAW it would work.

I fully and freely admit that's a table rule.

Of course, without table rules you've got a problem: Where, exactly, does it say that the player gets to choose the feats his psicrystal takes?


Doesn't gaining HD count though? I've never been clear on that.
Sorta. Off of the DM workbench, you can do pretty much whatever you want. Celestial Bison, Feindish wolves, half-dragon, half-celestial, half-fiend Elf? Go for it (that's what happens when a celestial dragon and a fiendish elf get it on).

As a player at the table, though, you've got a problem when trying to add the Saint template; "sainthood is a gift bestowed by the deities of good and the mightiest celestials to those exalted heroes who deserve it" and "a character must meet the following qualifications, as well as any additional requirements set by the DM" and "must be at least 6th level" - a Psicrystal doesn't have levels, just hit dice.

Then again:

Wolves don't gain levels either, just HD. Yet, you can have a celestial wolf.

No, the real barrier is that the Saint template may only be added to a LIVING creature. Psicrystals are constructs, which are not living.
That works too.




However, as I think about it, what are the actual detriments of allowing this? The PC does not benefit from the abilities the psicrystal gains, so mostly it just makes a heartier psicrystal, one harder to destroy and with better stats. I forget if Vow of Poverty gives you any spell-like abilities, but that's the only thing I would really see effecting the PC or the rest of the party.

Well, let's see...

Vow of Poverty doesn't come with any spell-likes, but it does come with lots of bonus feats, and some bonuses to attack/damage. If you're letting the Psicrystal take feats, it'll have Improved Unarmed Strike in short order (shortly after picking up Vow of Poverty). The Psicrystal could become a reasonably effective striker, oddly. Oh yes, and the master could manifest such things as Metamorphisis . Let's look over some of the Exalted feats the Psicrystal could get:

Stigmata ... can't be used by the Psicrystal, even though the Psicrystal can qualify, as all the numbers are based on con damage "taken", not con damage "dealt". The psicrystal, having no con score, doesn't take con damage.

Purify and Consecrate Spell-like Ability? Can't use it (no spell-likes).

Resounding Blow... good luck qualifying (Str 13), but it is doable (especially with Metamorphisis from the master)

Spell Focus (Good)? Have fun figuring out how to use it.

Subduing Strike? Not so useful.

Exalted Spell Resistance? Somewhat handy (under transparency), but not overly useful.

Favored of the Companions? Great... a 1/day +1 luck bonus. Umm... yeah.

Fist of the Heavens: Okay... yeah, Psicrystal could qualify for it, and have a stunning attack. It'll almost always be a pathetically low DC, though.

Gift of Faith: Psicrystal is pretty immune to fear and despair anyway... especially with the Vow of Poverty

Holy Subdual: Yes, I'm sure you'll find this useful... somewhere... umm... what's the benefit of nonlethal over lethal, again?

Intuitive Attack: Useful if you plan to keep your psicrystal in crystal form, otherwise, not so much.

Knight of stars: essentially identical to Favored of Companions. Oh, and they're mutually exclusive.

Nimbus of Light: ... yay, your Psicrystal is now a cheap torch. And is slightly better at dealing with people you'll seldom need to worry about anyway.

Holy Radiance: Okay, your Psicrystal can slow-cook undead. Useful when the undead are weak enough that they're not a noticable threat to the Psicrystal ... or that have attacks that simply can't harm the Psicrystal at all (aka, Shadows, Spectres, Wraiths... most Incorporeal undead, really).

Nymph's Kiss: Can't use the skills (Psicrystals don't get their own), but the +1 to saves and the +2 to Charisma-based checks is useful. For builds that use it. Makes it a prettier rock.

Quell the Profane: Somewhat useful, but good luck qualifying without Metamorphisis, and even at that, it'll be a long while before you qualify (Str 13, BAB+8)

Sacred Strike: Your Psicrystal can technically qualify for this one... if it also burns two of it's normal feats on some stuff from the Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords. Really, though, even with that, it averages about +2 damage.

Sacred Vow: ... already have to have it for Vow of Poverty. +2 to Diplomacy. So it's a persuasive rock.

Vow of Abstinance: Immune to poisons and drugs anyway.

Vow of Chastity: Immune to Charms and Phantasms anyway.

Vow of Nonviolence: Can't cast spells.

Vow of Peace: Okay... the calming aura might be useful. Not that it will, you know, actually stop people from attacking... Calm Emotions doesn't do that. Extra AC... makes it extra tough.

Vow of Obedience: Immune to Compulsions anyway.

Vow of Poverty: Oh, that's what we're discussing.

Vow of Purity: Immune to disease and death effects anyway.

Sanctify Martial Strike: Yay, a small amount of bonus damage... that requires you spend a few other feats to get it.

Sanctify Natural Attack: Need to be Metamorphosized first, but ... is a small amount of bonus damage. Not overly useful.

Servant of the Heavans: Looks crazy-familiar. +1 luck, 1/day, to a number of things.

Words of Creation: +4 on Craft Checks! Oh, wait - poverty.

Consecrate Spell / Nonlethal Substitution / Purify Spell: Can't cast spells, although that's oddly not a requirement for these metamagic feats.

So... other than using your Psicrystal as bait to break up opponents weapons, and slow-roast undead, and maybe morph it into something that fights well, not really useful (although that last one could get devastating, potentially).



Edit: forgot the part about qualifying for Stigmata or other Exalted feats. Those might be broken... and how can a psicrystal bleed healing?
Can't take the Con damage required by the feat. So it can take the feat, but it has no effect.

elonin
2010-03-26, 05:41 PM
The cheddar side of the force I sense in this thread. For the same reason that having a cohort with leadership is cheesy.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-03-26, 06:03 PM
"Cheesy" is a term I've always had difficulty understanding. The meaning isn't as clear IMO as that of "overpowered" or "unbalanced".


After all the BoE is intended for mature roll players, the kind of think more about the spirit of the rules and not the letter.

Remember that the Vow of Poverty feat, like most of the material found in Book of Exalted Deeds, is intended for mature campaigns that are capable of handling difficult role-playing issues—it’s not intended for most hack-and-slash games.

The content of your FAQ quote does not directly imply the content of your post, and I am still mildly offended that you imply that my mindset is immature. Also, you don't account for the sort of people in this thread that are thinking about neither the spirit nor the letter of the rules - the majority, as far as I can tell.

Kobold-Bard
2010-03-26, 06:05 PM
"Cheesy" is a term I've always had difficulty understanding. The meaning isn't as clear IMO as that of "overpowered" or "unbalanced". ...

Overpowered because of stupid interpretations of rules or so overpowered the rest of the party might as well be getting drunk in the tavern.

That's my understanding anyway.

Optimystik
2010-03-26, 08:16 PM
I fully and freely admit that's a table rule.

Of course, without table rules you've got a problem: Where, exactly, does it say that the player gets to choose the feats his psicrystal takes?

"A psicrystal’s characteristics depend on its master." (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/psicrystal.htm)

Jack_Simth
2010-03-26, 09:07 PM
"A psicrystal’s characteristics depend on its master." (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/psicrystal.htm)
Ah, context. In then goes on to state skills, saves, and HP. Feats not mentioned. You've got a pesky problem of reading: Is anything not mentioned not dependent on the master, or is the list supposed to be a few things, but the player controls everything?

Either answer to that question is dependent on the DM (similar to the Druid animal companions bonus hit dice and size increases). Letting the player pick the Psicrystal's feats requires the most favorable ruling. That, however, is dependent on the DM - a table ruling.

Lycanthromancer
2010-03-26, 09:48 PM
Players are in control of building their own characters (barring inflicted effects, such as, say, vampirism or lycanthropy), and as the psicrystal is part of that character, they have the alpha and omega say in what feats they get.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-26, 09:53 PM
"A psicrystal’s characteristics depend on its master." (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/psicrystal.htm)

Which would be interpreted by a lot of DMs to say that a psicrystal gets exactly the same feats as you.

So it gets VoP if and only if you have VoP.

shadow_archmagi
2010-03-26, 10:06 PM
What about Vile Feats?

What about having one good and one evil psicrystal?

magic9mushroom
2010-03-26, 10:12 PM
What about Vile Feats?

What about having one good and one evil psicrystal?

Alignment: As Master.

Unless you have some sort of weird multiple-personality stuff going on, no.

Olo Demonsbane
2010-03-26, 10:17 PM
Unless you have some sort of weird multiple-personality stuff going on, no.

Schism? :smalltongue:

shadow_archmagi
2010-03-26, 10:18 PM
Alignment: As Master.

Unless you have some sort of weird multiple-personality stuff going on, no.

What if I argued that the "evil" psicrystal was in fact True Neutral and simply advocated apathy and self-centeredness while the "Good" psicrystal was in fact True Neutral and advocated improving the system because the system is where we live?


IE:

Psicrystal One: Help build the schoolhouse! A well educated community will have greater employability, and so the entire area will prosper. A prosperous area will be much more pleasant to live in. You like living in a pleasant area.

Psicrystal Two: Ignore the children! They're none of your concern. Spend your time buying nice things.


Basically it isn't so much Good vs Evil as Good vs Ayn Rand

Gralamin
2010-03-26, 10:53 PM
Ah, context. In then goes on to state skills, saves, and HP. Feats not mentioned. You've got a pesky problem of reading: Is anything not mentioned not dependent on the master, or is the list supposed to be a few things, but the player controls everything?

Either answer to that question is dependent on the DM (similar to the Druid animal companions bonus hit dice and size increases). Letting the player pick the Psicrystal's feats requires the most favorable ruling. That, however, is dependent on the DM - a table ruling.

Curmudgeon and I had a big long argument about this once. There is not enough to convince either side one way or another. He argued as you did, that the text there overrides the standard rules for gaining HD. I argued that they did not, and so it still gains feats.

Kobold-Bard
2010-03-27, 04:44 AM
Alignment: As Master.

Unless you have some sort of weird multiple-personality stuff going on, no.

An Elan who had the Psicrystal before under going the Elan transformation ritual.

After it the Elan's personality changed dramatically, but the Psicrystal still remembers it's master's former outlook on life and works to remind him of it.

Might be gibberish, but that's what came to me when I read that.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-27, 04:56 AM
What if I argued that the "evil" psicrystal was in fact True Neutral and simply advocated apathy and self-centeredness while the "Good" psicrystal was in fact True Neutral and advocated improving the system because the system is where we live?

Then you'd be wrong, because they fall right into the D&D descriptions of Good and Evil.


Basically it isn't so much Good vs Evil as Good vs Ayn Rand

There's a difference? :smalltongue:

2xMachina
2010-03-27, 05:23 AM
Alignment: As Master.

Unless you have some sort of weird multiple-personality stuff going on, no.

I'd love to play a split personality character again. One of my first characters had it. Refers to self with "We", and talks to self/each other a lot. The RP wasn't D&D though, but more of the talky kind (PbP).

shadow_archmagi
2010-03-27, 07:43 AM
Then you'd be wrong, because they fall right into the D&D descriptions of Good and Evil.



There's a difference? :smalltongue:

what if argued that alignment systems were bad and they should feel bad?

Gaiyamato
2010-03-27, 08:40 AM
A lawful Good Psion sells his soul (for some reason or other) using the rules in the Fiendish Codex II and then becomes Lawful Evil. His first Psi-crystal would remain and would continue to be Lawful Good.

Optimystik
2010-03-27, 08:48 AM
Which would be interpreted by a lot of DMs to say that a psicrystal gets exactly the same feats as you.

So it gets VoP if and only if you have VoP.

It says "depend on its master" not "depend on its master's." Big difference there.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-27, 08:51 AM
It says "depend on its master" not "depend on its master's." Big difference there.

I'd agree.

I also wouldn't allow you to choose your psicrystal's feats, and wouldn't give it Vow of Poverty.

Optimystik
2010-03-27, 09:00 AM
I'd agree.

I also wouldn't allow you to choose your psicrystal's feats, and wouldn't give it Vow of Poverty.

I'd allow the feat choice. Making a pet rock Exalted is another matter, I agree.