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cssmythe3
2010-03-26, 07:22 AM
A a pair of +1 merciful (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#merciful)saps normal would cost 8000 gp cost per sap.

DMs out there, if I removed the ability to suppress the non-lethal aspect (see link) and just kept it permanently on, would any of you give me a discount on the cost?

I have an urban ranger 4 / rogue 1 who is a city watch detective who was designed to be good at 'bringing them back alive.' He and his animal companion flank the criminal, and with two weapon fighting with a pair of normal saps the ranger is doing two swings at 2d6+3 non-lethal damage each.

I'm looking at getting that up to 3d6+3 per swing...

Cheers,

Ashtagon
2010-03-26, 07:45 AM
Saps are a bit of a special case, since their default attack is non-lethal anyway.

* Sword: 1d8 lethal
* merciful sword: 1d8 non-lethal + 1d6 non-lethal
* merciful sword, suppressed: 1d8 lethal

* sap: 1d6 non-lethal
* merciful sap: 1d6 non-lethal + 1d6 non-lethal
* merciful sap, suppressed: 1d6 non-lethal (but no reason to ever do this).



http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/injuryandDeath.htm#nonlethalDamage

Nonlethal Damage with a Weapon that Deals Lethal Damage

You can use a melee weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage instead, but you take a -4 penalty on your attack roll.

Lethal Damage with a Weapon that Deals Nonlethal Damage

You can use a weapon that deals nonlethal damage, including an unarmed strike, to deal lethal damage instead, but you take a -4 penalty on your attack roll.

The above rule adds the following combat options:

* Sword, non-lethal attack: 1d8 non-lethal, -4 attack penalty
* merciful sword, non-lethal attack: 1d8 non-lethal + 1d6 non-lethal, -4 attack penalty (but no reason to ever do this).
* merciful sword, suppressed, non-lethal attack: 1d8 non-lethal, -4 attack penalty

* sap, lethal attack: 1d6 lethal, -4 attack penalty
* merciful sap, lethal attack: n/a (merciful quality prevents lethal damage from being done).
* merciful sap, suppressed, lethal attack: 1d6 lethal, -4 attack penalty

Personally, I'd rule that the merciful weapon quality overrules any attempt to use a non-lethal weapon in a lethal fashion; regardless of your intent, it simply will not do lethal damage.

The above is essentially all RAW.

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The point of being able to suppress the merciful quality is to allow ordinarily-lethal weapons to still have the lethal attack option. For ordinarily non-lethal weapons, the suppression option is only useful if you want to make a lethal attack.

My instinct is that the price is a package deal, and that getting a discount for removing part of the package shouldn't be allowed. It's kind of like buying a house, then asking for a discount because you don't want that one-foot wide strip of land nearest to the street.

Lysander
2010-03-26, 08:03 AM
Just give a non-lethal weapon like a sap a normal enhancement bonus. Since it's already non-lethal the merciful enchantment is redundant. A plain +1 bonus is only 2,000gp plus the weapon cost.

Silverscale
2010-03-26, 10:21 AM
Just give a non-lethal weapon like a sap a normal enhancement bonus. Since it's already non-lethal the merciful enchantment is redundant. A plain +1 bonus is only 2,000gp plus the weapon cost.

True it's already non-lethal but that doesn't mean Merciful is redundant, it still adds 1d6 non-lethal damage RAW so it's actually a very good option since it doubles the damage of the weapon.

As to the original request to make them do 3d6+3, just house rule a "Very Merciful" enhancement. It would have the same cost multiplier as a Bane weapon since Bane also adds a specific kind of 2d6 damage.

DaTedinator
2010-03-26, 10:47 AM
Don't forget that merciful makes ALL the damage the weapon deals non-lethal, including damage from enhancements like Flaming or Shock, which, I'm not 100% positive, but I'm pretty sure those would be doing lethal otherwise.

As for the original question, I think I would give a discount to merciful saps, given that the only benefit it grants is +1d6 damage, but, every other +1d6 enhancement costs the same. So unfortunately, no, I wouldn't.

As an aside, note that Vicious is, well, vicious when paired with Merciful, given that you're dealing nonlethal to yourself, too.

cssmythe3
2010-03-29, 09:27 AM
So unfortunately, no, I wouldn't.

Yeah, probably not a surprise...

In retrospect - I think I was minmaxing a bit there...

In unrelated news, how many #$%^&ing posts do I have to do to stop being a pixie?!?