Xykon and the Ritual

[Roland Itiative]

We all know Xykon ordered Tsukiko to learn the Ritual and then explain it to him (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0700.html). It seems most people in these forums assume this means either:
a) Xykon fells there's something wrong with the Ritual, but can't grasp what, exactly it is.
b) Xykon intends to ditch Redcloak and use Tsukiko to perform the other half of the Ritual.

I believe in a third option, Xykon simply cannot learn how to do his part on the Ritual... Tsukiko mentions she have to learn it and explain it to Xykon, not find out what the other half is about (that seems to be what Tsukiko will stumble upon, nonetheless). Maybe Xykon simply can't easily learn the spell at all (being a sorcerer might have something to do with it, even though the RAW do not prohibit, or make it harder, them from learning spells from spellbooks)...

This wouldn't change much the flow of recent events, but I don't think Xykon wants to get rid of RC, and he really have no reason to believe RC has been lying to him from the beginning (he can always be paranoid, tough)...

[Shale]

The "explain" part seems more likely to mean "explain what the ritual does, in detail." Since Redcloak has never actually done that, as we know from the fact that Xykon hasn't murdered him horribly.

[Nimrod's Son]

This wouldn't change much the flow of recent events, but I don't think Xykon wants to get rid of RC, and he really have no reason to believe RC has been lying to him from the beginning (he can always be paranoid, tough)...
From what we see in SoD, we have every reason to believe that Xykon knows EXACTLY when Redcloak is lying to him... he's just willing to let him get away with it right up until the point that he disobeys a direct order.

[Shale]

Xykon cheated there. He already knew what happened; he just wanted to twist the knife by making Redcloak admit it.

[Nimrod's Son]

Xykon cheated there. He already knew what happened; he just wanted to twist the knife by making Redcloak admit it.
I'm not sure I see the "cheating" part. The very fact that he DID know what was going on shows he's no slouch. For all we know, Xykon's well aware of most things that Redcloak is currently up to*... he just doesn't care, because for the time being he's still doing exactly what he's told, extracurricular activities notwithstanding.

*Apart from the true meaning behind the ritual, natch, but he's already working on that one...

[Zxo]

Even if Xykon doesn't know yet what exactly the ritual does, he knows there's something wrong with it. Nobody offers you access to ultimate power to share it with you 50/50 (Redcloak asked just for an equal distribution of land), not among the bad guys and Xykon isn't that naive.

[Roland Itiative]

Well, Xykon received his info about the Ritual when he was still alive, and he was, on all accounts, quite dumb when alive. Redcloak offered him a powerfull spell that would allow him to conquer the whole world, and I don't think he really though a lot about that at the time.

Xykon's little mind game at the end of SoD, in my opinion, served as a testament to Xykon's character development (the quote :xykon:: "I used to think spells equaled power, too, back when I was alive. I've learned a lot since then." fits very well), as well as Redcloak's commitment to put the Plan before everything else.

I don't think Xykon really have any reason to doubt Redcloak's loyalty, especially after the scene at the end of SoD... even when, during the recent events, Redcloak was not a very effective minion.

[Zevox]

What I want to know is how Xykon got a written copy of the ritual in the first place. That was the one piece of leverage Redcloak had left with him - it was what he used to convince Xykon not to murder him and Right-Eye in the coffee shop after threatening the phylactery proved ineffective. It would be pretty stupid of Redcloak to just give that up to Xykon, even if he assumed there was no way he could decipher the divine portion of it to learn what exactly it does (and I don't think Redcloak is half stupid enough to make that assumption either).

Zevox

[Kareasint]

What I want to know is how Xykon got a written copy of the ritual in the first place. That was the one piece of leverage Redcloak had left with him - it was what he used to convince Xykon not to murder him and Right-Eye in the coffee shop after threatening the phylactery proved ineffective. It would be pretty stupid of Redcloak to just give that up to Xykon, even if he assumed there was no way he could decipher the divine portion of it to learn what exactly it does (and I don't think Redcloak is half stupid enough to make that assumption either).

Zevox

The answer is that they were already at the gate in Redmountain. Once they had figured out how to open it, Xykon and RC had to be prepared to do the ritual. Therefore, RC had to give Xykon the Arcane portion of the ritual. My thinking as far giving the ritual to Tsukiko is that Xykon can't be bothered with trying to learn it.

[Dark Matter]

Xykon is an epic level spellcaster, and his knowledge(Arcana) skill level is also epic. Not only is he smarter than he looks/acts, but magic is one of the few things he does care about and he's one of the top guys on the planet.

So, he looks at his half of the spell, and what does he see?

Odd... there's nothing in my half of the spell that gives me Control of the Snarl.

RC wants me to cast this spell even though he knows I care nothing about the goblins other than using them as cannon fodder. He's already got the city... why does he need me any more? Surely he realizes I don't care about the goblins and I'm not going to give them "equality". I wonder what this spell really does.

[Ancalagon]

What I want to know is how Xykon got a written copy of the ritual in the first place.

He does not, he only has his half and simply, from that, cannot figure out the entire thing. That is what he tasked Tsukiko with (who apparently seems to figuring out right now.

Apart from that: Xykon has ALL reason to mistrust Redcloak. And by now he also had lots and lots of time to think about it all so I'd not be suprised if he wanted to know what the ritual actually does.

[Roland Itiative]

He does not, he only has his half and simply, from that, cannot figure out the entire thing. That is what he tasked Tsukiko with (who apparently seems to figuring out right now.

If he tasked Tsukiko with figuring out the other half of the Ritual based on his half, why didn't he give her the important info he already have (I mean, he knows it's just half of the Ritual, and that RC will be the one performing the other half, so he also knows the other half must be divine), instead of just giving her a piece of paper and leaving her to figure everything out (I mean, all Tsukiko discovered so far is useless information that Xykon should already know)?

[Morquard]

Read the first panel of #709. She's refering to the missing part as divine, aka Redcloaks part.

She only has one half of the ritual, Xykon's half. So no, he didn't give it to her primarily to have her learn RC's part.

The last sentence "no wonder Xykon can't understand it", strongly implies that you also need Knowledge (Religion) to understand the entire ritual.
Xykon has Knowledge (Arcana) through the roof, thats correct, but his knowledge about the divine is lets say more than limited.
That's where Tsukiko comes in, as Mythic Theurge she has both those skills.

It's like understanding how a car works when you only know chemistry and can explain in detail what happens to gas when it combusts etc, but have no clue about physics and what happens afterwards. (maybe a stupid example, but can't think of anything better right now :) )
Basicly Xykon was looking at his part of the ritual and said "Huh, why does turning gas into CO2 and a few other unhealthy things make the car move forward?"

[Ubergeek]

Because Tsukiko knows divine magic.

Xykon may be an epic-level expect when it comes to arcane magic, but he doesn't understand the scroll because it also relates to divine magic, something that Xykon knows absolutely nothing about.

I think Xykon knows already that the scroll is in two halves. It's all that makes sense, seeing how Redcloak described the ritual as "an arcane caster and a divine caster working together." Why didn't he tell Tsukiko? He wants her to figure it out on her own.

[Dark Matter]

If he tasked Tsukiko with figuring out the other half of the Ritual based on his half, why didn't he give her the important info he already have (I mean, he knows it's just half of the Ritual, and that RC will be the one performing the other half, so he also knows the other half must be divine), instead of just giving her a piece of paper and leaving her to figure everything out (I mean, all Tsukiko discovered so far is useless information that Xykon should already know)?The key is that Xykon doesn't trust the "important" information he has. He's reached the point where he knows that he has no real clue what this thing is supposed to do, even in theory.

Ignore the personal dynamics between X and RC. X has never seen the snarl but he's looked through the riff.

[Zevox]

The answer is that they were already at the gate in Redmountain. Once they had figured out how to open it, Xykon and RC had to be prepared to do the ritual. Therefore, RC had to give Xykon the Arcane portion of the ritual. My thinking as far giving the ritual to Tsukiko is that Xykon can't be bothered with trying to learn it.
I don't know. I would tend to think that he would simply explain Xykon's role to him when the time came. Giving him a written copy, even just of the arcane half of the ritual, still strikes me as a foolish risk. Especially given the whole problem they had with the ward on the Redmountain Gate meant they couldn't use it yet anyway. It is, as I said before, all the leverage Redcloak had left on him - you just don't take risks with that kind of thing, not with a guy like Xykon.

Zevox

[Ancalagon]

I don't know. I would tend to think that he would simply explain Xykon's role to him when the time came. Giving him a written copy, even just of the arcane half of the ritual, still strikes me as a foolish risk.

You might be right or wrong... depending on how complicated the ritual is. Maybe it's a good idea to give it out in the last minute (relatively easy ritual), maybe that is a very foolish idea (relatively complicated ritual).

We also don't know if Xykon had his half in his pocket for the last 30 years and now only started to care (or he cared all along but had no other caster available he could order to check it in detail).

[FabuVinny]

What I want to know is how Xykon got a written copy of the ritual in the first place.If we are assuming Xykon got it at Dorukan's Gate, Redcloak was pretty much in Xykon's pocket at that point. Redcloak was crushed by the ending events of SOD and thus acts more subservient in the first book than anywhere else. It's only after the gate blows up and all the other goblins are dead that he starts growing a spine again.

[WowWeird]

Ok, Ok, Ok, I've seen a lot of arguments over what the Ritual actually IS. How do you guys determine it's the Gate ritual? :smallconfused:

[Ancalagon]

Ok, Ok, Ok, I've seen a lot of arguments over what the Ritual actually IS. How do you guys determine it's the Gate ritual? :smallconfused:

Err, what?

What other ritual do we have in the comic that is part divine and part arcane where Xykon has only the arcane part and that is sufficiently important to him to care?

It surely won't be the ritual that lets him find his keys (which are in his pocket anyway)...

[Nimrod's Son]

Zevox
I don't mean to be rude, but I'm curious - when you're having a conversation with someone face-to-face, do you say your name at the end of every exchange? :smalltongue:

I mean, if you MUST sign everything you post here - well, isn't that kinda what the "signature" section is for? And that way, it saves you the trouble of typing it every time. :smallwink:

[Optimystik]

I don't know. I would tend to think that he would simply explain Xykon's role to him when the time came. Giving him a written copy, even just of the arcane half of the ritual, still strikes me as a foolish risk. Especially given the whole problem they had with the ward on the Redmountain Gate meant they couldn't use it yet anyway. It is, as I said before, all the leverage Redcloak had left on him - you just don't take risks with that kind of thing, not with a guy like Xykon.

Zevox

My theory is that he didn't expect Xykon to procure a sufficiently skilled divine caster to work out his side of the ritual. Even worse, Tsukiko is an MT, so she's the best-qualified to puzzle out where both sides intersect.

I'm willing to bet that Rich had this "MT deciphers the ritual" subplot going in his head all along, just as he had the Mama Dragon as a factor before her appearance several hundred strips later.

[SaintRidley]

If he tasked Tsukiko with figuring out the other half of the Ritual based on his half, why didn't he give her the important info he already have (I mean, he knows it's just half of the Ritual, and that RC will be the one performing the other half, so he also knows the other half must be divine), instead of just giving her a piece of paper and leaving her to figure everything out (I mean, all Tsukiko discovered so far is useless information that Xykon should already know)?

Better to let her figure out for herself that it's not complete and the other half is divine. If she's smart enough to figure it out, she'll be smart enough to figure out how more of it works.

That's what Xykon wants.

[RMS Oceanic]

I can only see two reasons for Tsukiko to be working on the ritual:

1. If (or when? :smalleek:) Xykon decides he doesn't need Redcloak anymore, he has a new partner who can cast the ritual.
2. He suspects that Redcloak hasn't been honest with him, what with the seven or eight months of stalling that ended with his phylactery in danger. If Tsukiko can decode the ritual in its entirity, then he'll know what the score is. Also, she may even be able to modify it so it works as Redcloak advertised it.

Of course, it could be a mixture of the two reasons. When Tsukiko originally joined Team Evil, I thought her dual status would let the audience realise she could fill either part of the ritual - or both - and keep them guessing about whether Xykon or Redcloak may use that fact first. Then I realised that she's almost certainly on Xykon's side should this Cold War get hot, so she could be a combination of threat and final straw to Redcloak: A sort of "I don't really need you anymore" threat. Of course, once Redcloak becomes aware of this situation, it may force him to finally make a choice between continuing down the path or making other arrangements, especially if Tsukiko can modify the ritual.

[Ancalagon]

Better to let her figure out for herself that it's not complete and the other half is divine. If she's smart enough to figure it out, she'll be smart enough to figure out how more of it works.

In addition, it might be bad to pre-occupy her with something. Xykon surely is smart enough to know that the examination of an unclear issue is better started with a blank mind.
If you fill in stuff from the start, the thoughts might venture in the wrong direction. Better let Tsukiko being led by the Ritual where the ritual leads her.

You also study the "obvious" things deeper if you don't already know what they are meant to be (and maybe overlook that the "obvious" things are actually slightly (or not so slightly) different than you thought).

[Zevox]

I don't mean to be rude, but I'm curious - when you're having a conversation with someone face-to-face, do you say your name at the end of every exchange? :smalltongue:
Of course not - but I'm not having a face-to-face conversation here, am I?


I mean, if you MUST sign everything you post here - well, isn't that kinda what the "signature" section is for? And that way, it saves you the trouble of typing it every time. :smallwink:
Nah, the signature section is for pointless quotes, pictures, and miscellaneous information and links no one cares about 90% of the time :smalltongue: . Besides, typing five letters hardly constitutes "trouble" - and it saves me from ever needing the post something to fill up characters on the rare occasions where I want to make an extremely short post.

Seriously, it's merely a habit I picked up after seeing several other posters doing it on the first forum I joined. I thought it appropriate for text-based communication of this sort, like signing a letter.

Zevox

[Barlen]

After reading this discussion I went back and reread portions of SoD:

When Redcloak convinced Xykon to join them in the coffee shop he told him specifically:
1) The knowledge on how to warp the gate is inherent to the mantle, I learned it the first time I put it on.
2) They need a powerful Divine caster (redcloak) and a Powerful Arcane caster (Xykon).


Xykon is completely aware that there are 2 parts of the ritual and that one is arcane and one is Divine. He obviously didn't tell that to Tsukiko. He probably wants to see if she can figure it out (a test of her abilities) and of course see if she can come up with and possibly cast the divine part.

I do also recall, but can't remember where from, that Xykon one threatened to kill redcloak and give the mantle to the next goblin cleric that came along. So if he really needed to he could easily replace Redcloak with a new "Redcloak".

[TVTMaster]

What I'm confused about is why Xykon would hand over this Epic-level ritual over to Tsukiko to decipher. Not only is she a Mystic Theurge, thus not specializing in either field, but she's also obviously, well, not epic-level, as evidenced by the fact that she was held easily in Azure City's prison. I'm just not sure why Xykon thinks giving the ritual to a lower-level caster would be more effective, especially if he could most likely just demand the information from Redcloak if he really needed it.

[Kish]

Why won't the meme that the ritual is epic-level die?

[Shale]

It's not epic, just "high-level." Redcloak still isn't epic and he expected to be able to cast it at any moment in Dorukan's dungeon.

[Red XIV]

I'm just not sure why Xykon thinks giving the ritual to a lower-level caster would be more effective, especially if he could most likely just demand the information from Redcloak if he really needed it.
Because Tsukiko is a lot less likely to lie about it?

[Dark Matter]

What I'm confused about is why Xykon would hand over this Epic-level ritual over to Tsukiko to decipher. Not only is she a Mystic Theurge, thus not specializing in either field, but she's also obviously, well, not epic-level, as evidenced by the fact that she was held easily in Azure City's prison. I'm just not sure why Xykon thinks giving the ritual to a lower-level caster would be more effective, especially if he could most likely just demand the information from Redcloak if he really needed it.The information from Redcloak that he needs is whether or not the Ritual hoses Xykon in favor of Redcloak. You don't need a sense motive roll on that one.

As for Tsukiko... current estimate is she's at least 14th level (W3, C3, MT8+). If she takes 20 (which takes a huge amount of time and which is what we're seeing), then she beats a Spellcraft DC of 37 (deep into Epic territory). She might also have some feat which bumps her up further.

[Zxo]

It's not epic, just "high-level." Redcloak still isn't epic and he expected to be able to cast it at any moment in Dorukan's dungeon.

Even earlier, at Lirian's gate. There was nothing in SoD that would indicate that they planned to conquer the gate first and then go adventuring to level up enough to be able to do the ritual.

I think the words "high-level caster" were said from a low-level point of view. There are so few people level higher than 5 in the world (which is easy to forget if you are watching/playing professional adventurers all the time) that a 10+ level mage is regarded as being "high level" by most people.

[Boogastreehouse]

I think that people are missing the actual reason that Xykon is making Tsukiko learn the spell for him (if this has been said before, then I'm sorry to repeat it).

Xykon is a sorcerer, and as such he doesn't learn spells by studying the arcane recipe, he learns spells through intuition and force of will. What he has now is a recipe which he can't read, so he gives it to Tsukiko who can read it. Once she describes the effects of the spell to him, he can envision it and learn to cast it (adding it to his sorcerer spell-list).

I'm not sure if he is currently limited to casting it off a scroll, but it appears to me that he wants to be able to cast it at will.

[Zevox]

I think that people are missing the actual reason that Xykon is making Tsukiko learn the spell for him (if this has been said before, then I'm sorry to repeat it).

Xykon is a sorcerer, and as such he doesn't learn spells by studying the arcane recipe, he learns spells through intuition and force of will. What he has now is a recipe which he can't read, so he gives it to Tsukiko who can read it. Once she describes the effects of the spell to him, he can envision it and learn to cast it (adding it to his sorcerer spell-list).

I'm not sure if he is currently limited to casting it off a scroll, but it appears to me that he wants to be able to cast it at will.
Except that Sorcerer spellcasting doesn't work like that, either. He can't just add a spell to his spells known at any time, no matter how you try to go about teaching one to him. At his level he's already maxed out his non-epic spells known, so he either needs to reach an even-numbered level and swap out a spell he already knows for a new one, or reach a level where he gains a feat and take the epic feat Spell Knowledge to gain two new spells known. Both of which are unlikely to happen, since he's at such a high level and can't possibly be gaining enough xp to level up with any real frequency anymore (particularly since he apparently does a lot of item crafting, which spends xp).

In any event, odds are that the ritual is not a spell in its own right, but rather a means of channeling the power of particular spells. The actual spells to be cast likely consist of specific, common enough spells which Xykon can be expected to know, or even merely powerful enough spells from particular schools of magic. Else Xykon being a sorcerer would be a severe impediment to his ability to help Redcloak with The Plan to begin with, something Redcloak would likely have thought of somewhere along the line.

Zevox

[Shale]

Also, if Xykon couldn't cast the ritual, he would have remedied it before this. He had months in Lirian's cave, and then months more in Dorukan's dungeon, when Team Evil thought they were going to cast it in the very near future. He wouldn't have let it get to that point and not bothered learning the spell.

[Ancalagon]

I think that people are missing the actual reason that Xykon is making Tsukiko learn the spell for him (if this has been said before, then I'm sorry to repeat it).

It's not this way. The ritual is not a spell but a... ritual.

Rituals are "plot magic" and don't work as spells do. The DM is basically free to create rituals, some can even be cast by non-magicians at all. This one requires an arcane and a divine caster but Xykon does not have to learn & memorise it.