Undeath in OOTS

[Sotharsyl]

Please excuse my tardiness, in the fact that I've made a thread about the previous comic but the part in it where RK doesn't want the goblins/hobgoblins
transformed into undead beings has made me curious about necromancy in the stick verse.
In previous comics we've seen that RK had no problem creating zombies and other types of undead but he has starting with the siege of Azur City changed his opinions on a lot of things including that it would be a dishonour to his flock,which he now cares for regardless of the colour of their skin,to be used to create undead.
And finally now I get to the crunch RK as a high level evil cleric should IC know a lot about necromancy what about the process does he consider a dishonour does it affect only the body or does it use the soul also?
This thread if someone is interested is about speculating the exact nature of necromancy and how practical was RK atempt to stop it,how much homebrew is in this field of magic and what do the official D&D books say?

[Shpadoinkle]

Who the hell is RK?
/nitpick

Anyway, apparently the OotSverse uses the same rules that 3.xe D&D uses. Namely, undead are only undead because thier souls have been trapped in thier bodies after death, and therefore they can't proceed to the afterlife like we saw Roy doing (although the dead goblinoids would probably have gone to another plane instead of Mont Celestia).

Things like zombies and skeletons are 'mindless' undead. Thier souls are bound to thier bodies (enslaved might be a better term), but are essentially nothing but glue. They can't think or really speak, they just mindlessly follow orders.

Wights, ghouls, vampires, liches, and several other "advanced" or "higher-order" undead are intelligent- they usually retain at least some memory of thier lives, and are able to think and reason for themselves (not that ghouls ever bother to, but they're technically capable of it.) But even so, as undead thier souls are bound to thier bodies and unable to progress to the afterlife.

Note that the bone golem made from Roy's corpse wasn't undead. It didn't use his soul, just his bones (golems are instead "powered" by the soul of a bound elemental, usually an Earth elemental.)

[Draconi Redfir]

Well think about it. Say your father, whom you respect very highly and loved as much as you could during his life, suddenly died defending his family from an armed burglar. then out of nowhere I come along and try to make soilient-green burgers out of him. wouldn’t YOU try to stop me?


Its not that the soul would be affected, its that bringing the body of a dead hobgoblin back to life and craving mortal flesh would be dishonourable, like for example someone peeing on your fathers corpse, it doesn’t hurt your dads soul at all, but its disrespectful, and you would hate who did it for it.

[factotum]

Note that the bone golem made from Roy's corpse wasn't undead. It didn't use his soul, just his bones (golems are instead "powered" by the soul of a bound elemental, usually an Earth elemental.)

But that was also enough to prevent him being Resurrected until the golem was destroyed, which implies there is a link between the soul and the body which is independent of the soul being tied to it.

[Shpadoinkle]

But that was also enough to prevent him being Resurrected until the golem was destroyed, which implies there is a link between the soul and the body which is independent of the soul being tied to it.

Undead are specifically animated by the soul of the dead creature whose body is being used. The golem made from Roy's skeleton was already being animated by something else, so they had to destroy the body to the point that the spirit already in it was freed before Roy's could be returned to it.

[SoC175]

Who the hell is RK?
/nitpick

Anyway, apparently the OotSverse uses the same rules that 3.xe D&D uses. Namely, undead are only undead because thier souls have been trapped in thier bodies after death, and therefore they can't proceed to the afterlife like we saw Roy doing (although the dead goblinoids would probably have gone to another plane instead of Mont Celestia).

Things like zombies and skeletons are 'mindless' undead. Thier souls are bound to thier bodies (enslaved might be a better term), but are essentially nothing but glue. They can't think or really speak, they just mindlessly follow orders.
No, mindless undead don't bind the souls of the persons they're made of. There have even been beings being resurrected and alive again at the same time their ex-bodies existed as mindless undead (and even while it existed as a lesser intelligent undead, only the more powerful ones also bind the soul)

[Morquard]

SOD Spoiler:
Lirian's soul was bound to the black gem by Xykon, but then he animated her body to a zombie. So can't have been her soul in there.

[Zevox]

Anyway, apparently the OotSverse uses the same rules that 3.xe D&D uses. Namely, undead are only undead because thier souls have been trapped in thier bodies after death, and therefore they can't proceed to the afterlife like we saw Roy doing (although the dead goblinoids would probably have gone to another plane instead of Mont Celestia).
I'm afraid you're wrong there. In D&D, some undead involve the soul of the dead, some do not. As a general rule, mindless undead are nothing but the body reanimated by negative energy, while intelligent undead retain the soul of the individual - in some cases twisted or maddened by the reanimating process (Wights being a good example), or in others wholly intact (Vampires, Liches).

This is actually quite explicit in the Order of the Stick, too. In Start of Darkness, Xykon made a zombie out of the body of a character he killed and used Soul Bind on (imprisoning the person's soul in a gemstone he keeps with him). Obviously that would be impossible if he needed the soul to animate the zombie.

Zevox

[Roland Itiative]

Regardless of what happens to the soul when you animate an undead, you're still desecrating the corpse in the process. (Redcloak said so himself when Tsukiko tried to animate the hobs), and it can be (and certainly is) considered disrespectful to the dead.

Anyway, Tsukiko intended on making "high-end undead" out of the hobs, and that probably means their souls would be indeed in jeopardy...

[Optimystik]

There's quite a few inaccuracies in this thread about D&D necromancy, so allow me to chime in.

The general rule, per Libris Mortis and Complete Divine, is that undead do not contain the soul of the previously deceased individual. What animates them is instead the dark power of the Negative Energy Plane. The original soul is then free to go to the afterlife (or be trapped by another means - see SoD.) This applies to all mindless undead (skeletons, zombies) as well as even some intelligent ones (ghasts, wights.)

(Note to Zevox: You are mistaken - not all intelligent undead contain the soul of the living creature. But all mindless undead do not.)

As with most general rules, there are exceptions. Some undead keep the original soul trapped within the new form, slowly twisting it with the body's new cravings/evil acts. Vampires do this, as do Liches and Corpse Creatures (BoVD.) A Corpse Creature is the most likely answer for what Vaarsuvius reanimated Mama into. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0639.html)

Now, while there is a link between the soul and the body (such that if the body is reanimated, either as a golem or as undead, the soul cannot be raised until it is destroyed) - generally, that link does not actually affect the soul. You'll notice that while Roy was on the mountain, he didn't even know (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0601.html) that his body had been turned into a golem.

Powerful necromancy like CGU is the exception to that rule - allowing you to pull the soul from its rest and entomb it in the body, like V did to Mama - provided you do not allow too much time to elapse before doing so, as with resurrection.

[Sotharsyl]

Thanks for all the great replies,but the fact that it could just be the bodies which are afected just leads me to this train of thought desecrating the bodies is bad for morale,we're talking about the living troops who might see this as their ultimate fate and their loyalty might plummet but couldn't RK or Jirix spin this as "the ultimate patriots they died once but before hand willingly gave their bodies to serve again so that a live goblin/hobgoblin will be safer in battle and at home do to the larger army"?
In a sense they already saved those alive that would have been killed to get bodies,even if RK made that choice for them who's to say that if they used Speak with the Dead they wouldn't have been ok with it because of Lawfull tendencies "Serve the state one final time" or to avoid the people who they cared about being the replacements.

[Zxo]

Thanks for all the great replies,but the fact that it could just be the bodies which are afected just leads me to this train of thought desecrating the bodies is bad for morale,we're talking about the living troops who might see this as their ultimate fate and their loyalty might plummet but couldn't RK or Jirix spin this as "the ultimate patriots they died once but before hand willingly gave their bodies to serve again so that a live goblin/hobgoblin will be safer in battle and at home do to the larger army"?
In a sense they already saved those alive that would have been killed to get bodies,even if RK made that choice for them who's to say that if they used Speak with the Dead they wouldn't have been ok with it because of Lawfull tendencies "Serve the state one final time" or to avoid the people who they cared about being the replacements.

I think at this point it's not about troops' morale (Xykon can intimidate them into everything, and they are probably willing whatever their prophet tells them to do), but about dignity.

[Optimystik]

I agree that with the right spin, Redcloak could sell zombie troops.

Ghouls and Wights are a totally different story, as they would find themselves eating the living goblin soldiers. Not exactly an honorable way to die.

[Studoku]

From SoD, we know that creating mindless undead doesn't keep the soul in the body:

Xykon reanimates Lirian as a zombie, despite her soul being imprisoned by his Trap The Soul spell

[Nimrod's Son]

From SoD, we know that creating mindless undead doesn't keep the soul in the body
In the first fourteen posts of this thread, you're the fourth person to point this out. :smallsigh:

[Rotipher]

Redcloak is trying to establish goblinoids as a civilized race, equal to the PHB races. Allowing the dead to rest in peace is one of the hallmarks of civilized behavior, as it shows that a culture acknowledges higher principles -- civic duty, dignity, rememberence -- and isn't solely motivated by pragmatism. He wants to set a precedent that Gobbotopia won't treat its dead like resources instead of heroes.