Spell descriptors and Supernatural Abilities.

[magic9mushroom]

If a spell has a descriptor, and a Supernatural Ability is stated to "work like the *** spell", but the ability is not stated to have the descriptor, does it have the descriptor?

[Runestar]

If a spell has a descriptor, and a Supernatural Ability is stated to "work like the *** spell", but the ability is not stated to have the descriptor, does it have the descriptor?

Yes, meaning it can be affected by immunities.

For instance, a leonal can use holy word as a SU ability, allowing it to ignore sr, but still be blocked by silence, since it will have the sonic descriptor, like the original spell. :smallsmile:

[magic9mushroom]

Yes, meaning it can be affected by immunities.

For instance, a leonal can use holy word as a SU ability, allowing it to ignore sr, but still be blocked by silence, since it will have the sonic descriptor, like the original spell. :smallsmile:

I can certainly see why that would make sense, but is there any actual rule to that effect? After all, a descriptor's not part of a spell's effects.

[PhoenixRivers]

I can certainly see why that would make sense, but is there any actual rule to that effect? After all, a descriptor's not part of a spell's effects.

Well, it doesn't state that it "duplicates the effect". It states that it works "as XX spell". That means, with the exception of explicitly called out differences (cannot be countered or dispelled, does not provoke AoO's) of SU abilities, it functions exactly as the spell. That means descriptors.

[magic9mushroom]

Well, it doesn't state that it "duplicates the effect". It states that it works "as XX spell". That means, with the exception of explicitly called out differences (cannot be countered or dispelled, does not provoke AoO's) of SU abilities, it functions exactly as the spell. That means descriptors.

Not "as XX spell", "like the XX spell".

[peacenlove]

The closest analog i can find is the rules for casting mysteries as supernatural abilities in the Tome of Magic, the shadowcaster section. They keep their Descriptors and their schools of magic (evocation etc), despite being supernatural abilities.
Not much i hope i was helpful.

[magic9mushroom]

Unfortunately, no. That's the same ability, whereas this is one ability that "works like" another ability.

[Optimystik]

It's probably something they thought everyone would figure out and thus didn't need to be stated. Like monks being proficient with unarmed strike.

[magic9mushroom]

It's probably something they thought everyone would figure out and thus didn't need to be stated. Like monks being proficient with unarmed strike.

Normally I wouldn't ask. But this is a weird situation where the family of abilities it's in seems NOT to have this obvious-as-hell descriptor that the spell has.

[Ernir]

Not "as XX spell", "like the XX spell".
English isn't my first language, but... is there's a difference between the two? Especially in the context of the game? :smallconfused:

Normally I wouldn't ask. But this is a weird situation where the family of abilities it's in seems NOT to have this obvious-as-hell descriptor that the spell has.
And what would this situation be?

[SilverStar]

I'm pretty sure that Su abilities don't lose their descriptors if they emulate a spell.

That is to say I've yet to come across an instance where this is the case.

[magic9mushroom]

Oh, fine.

The case is Psibond Agent and its Psibond (Dominate). Funny thing about Psibond Agent is that none of the Psibond abilities, even those which are not described as emulating a spell (like Nudge), are mentioned as Mind-Affecting. So I'm wondering whether that's a non-Mind-Affecting Dominate which they get (which would at least partially redeem the class).

[ScionoftheVoid]

In the case of "like XX spell" I think it would need to specify that it did not have the descriptor. The ones mentioned are most likely ones with relatively easy immunities (mindless or Mind Blank for [Mind-affecting], Silence for [Sonic], etc.). As always, I could be wrong.

[KillianHawkeye]

Oh, fine.

The case is Psibond Agent and its Psibond (Dominate). Funny thing about Psibond Agent is that none of the Psibond abilities, even those which are not described as emulating a spell (like Nudge), are mentioned as Mind-Affecting. So I'm wondering whether that's a non-Mind-Affecting Dominate which they get (which would at least partially redeem the class).

I'm pretty sure there's no way you're ever going to get a non-[Mind-Affecting] dominate to fly in any game EVER, supernatural ability or no.

Seriously. :smallsigh::smallannoyed:

[SilverStar]

That'd all depend on the RAW/RAI debate, honestly.

I wouldn't let you have a non-mind-affecting dominate, but there are less restrictive folks than I.

On second thought, maybe I would... that'd surely kick all those mind-blanking casters in the face....

"Will save, please."
"Is it mind-affecting?"
"Nope."
"Aw damn, I rolled a 2!"
"You are now the personal bitch of Mr. Chuckles over there."
"Wait, what?!"

This is probably one of those cases where it's considered to be obvious, so they didn't bother to clarify.

[Lysander]

If something duplicates the effects of something then it behaves like it in every way. Whether or not it actually has the descriptor is a philosophical point. It acts as if it did for all intents and purposes.

If I say a stove "duplicates the effects" of a campfire that means it can cook things a campfire could cook. You wouldn't argue that because I never specifically said it had [fire] descriptor it can't cook things.

[FishAreWet]

Psibond nor Nudge is Mind-Affecting. Everything else is.

The rest have the language of "as/like Spell/Power except..." And because 3.5e is an exception based rule-set, it defaults that they are Mind-Affecting.

[Runestar]

Supernatural charm monster (say a succubus takes the supernatural transformation feat) already ignores sr and cannot be dispelled. Allowing it to punch through protection from alignment and mindblank would be way too sick. :smalleek:

[ScionoftheVoid]

Supernatural charm monster (say a succubus takes the supernatural transformation feat) already ignores sr and cannot be dispelled. Allowing it to punch through protection from alignment and mindblank would be way too sick. :smalleek:

It would make Enchantment more attractive as a school if they didn't all have the [Mind-affecting] tag, and the PrC it's in is (from what I can tell from what you've saud about it, can't be bothered to look it up) apparently somewhat underwhelming otherwise. RAW it needs an exception, but if it brings class up to par I see no reason why a houserule could not be implemented.

Edit: And it would only punch through Mind Blank, and only this specific ability (unless WoTC have been lax with wording elsewhere too). Mind Blank stops things reading your mind, as well as all [Mind-affecting] abilities. Protection From X wards against all direct mental control (so even this "special" Dominate would fall to it), regardless of a descriptor's presence or lack.

[magic9mushroom]

Supernatural charm monster (say a succubus takes the supernatural transformation feat) already ignores sr and cannot be dispelled. Allowing it to punch through protection from alignment and mindblank would be way too sick. :smalleek:

The PrC sucks. Completely.

Their main class feature is that they get this Dominate Monster ability. At level 10. They also get +3d6 Sneak Attack dice. That's it. Oh, and there's a bit of other stuff earlier, like Suggestion and False Sensory Input, that's eclipsed by Dominate anyway.

Oh, and it allows two saves, and requires two standard actions.

So yeah. You're basically a Warlock with 3d6 Sneak Attack, 1 invocation, and no class features. :smallannoyed:

Having a non-Mind-Affecting Dominate Monster would at least provide a tiny niche for the class.

[Yuki Akuma]

Unless it's a very odd PrC, getting a ninth-level spell at character level 16 isn't exactly a bad thing.

[Runestar]

Protection From X wards against all direct mental control (so even this "special" Dominate would fall to it), regardless of a descriptor's presence or lack.

Protection from X also lasts only minutes, while charm monster tends to last hours.

So a succubus could charm the fighter, then teleport away, wait a 10 minutes for protection from evil to expire, then teleport back to reestablish control. During this time, the party cannot dispel charm monster because it has now been rendered a SU ability. :smallamused: