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OverdrivePrime
2010-03-27, 08:10 AM
Hey all, I think that over the last few months I've made clear how much I love the power metal bard character concept, but now that I've finally got the opportunity to play one, I can't make up my mind! :smalleek:

I'm bringing in a 14th level character, with Pathfinder's 30 point buy. I've got the opportunity to use the Pathfinder bard if I want, but all skills and feats must come from standard D&D 3.5. He must be Human.

Available Sources:
All Core
Tome of Battle
Tome of Magic
Spell Compendium
PHB II
Complete Adventurer, Complete Divine, Complete Arcane, Complete Mage (My group has a gentleman's agreement not to use Complete Champion)
Races of Destiny, Races of Stone, Races of the Wild
D20 SRD
D20 Pathfinder SRD
No Forgotten Realms or I'll get falcon-punched in the genitals.
No Magic Item Compendium.
No Eberron either. :smallfrown:

One more unusual stipulation: this game is in a setting where magic items are very rare. Multiply the cost of any magical items or enchantments by 1.5.


Anyway, I had been all jazzed to play a Bard 4/Crusader 10 (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=195112), and take him the rest of the way through with Crusader.
However, I'm stuck over the idea that at 2nd level, crusaders get their their second stance, and the stance can't be changed! That means that I'm stuck with two crappy 1st level stances.
Now I'm wondering if it's more efficient and effective to go Bard 8 / Crusader 6. Then I have a 1st level stance, a 3rd level stance and a 5th level stance (Iron Guard's Glare, Thicket of Blades & Press the Advantage).

3rd level spells certainly won't hurt, particularly out of combat, and we've got 2 other front-line fighters in the party (pathfinder fighter, pathfinder ranger), backed up by an arcane trickster and a beguiler/shadowcraft mage (all human). I wanted to go with the power metal bard/crusader so that I can provide in-combat healing and boosts, along with as much IC as I can put out with my limited access to books (no dragonfire inspiration, unfortunately).

What do you think? How do I get the most from my metalhead?

Thanks in advance! http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w219/mwellenstein/Win/rock.gif

Mastikator
2010-03-27, 08:21 AM
How do you get the most out of him? By whipping out the magical lightning guitar and doing an awesome solo once in a while to get a +2 awesomeness bonus to all rolls.

OverdrivePrime
2010-03-27, 11:01 AM
Oh, for sure. That's a given. Just trying to figure out the class balance to support the attitude!

OverdrivePrime
2010-03-27, 12:30 PM
Here's my first go-round on thoughts for his axe. I think I'm vastly overestimating the cost, but better to be safe when I'm trying to sell it to my DM.


Granor, Axe of the Exultant Hero

Greataxe 1d12 dmg, 12 lbs, slashing, crit x3, 20 gp
Starmetal Body 5,000 gp
Mithral Neck & Bridge 1,500 gp
Masterwork Musical Instrument 100 gp


Magic, caster level 18
+5 enchantment 50,000 gp

Ghost Sound Bard 0 90 gp
Major Image Bard 3 540 gp
Amplify (Spell Compendium) Bard 1 180 gp
Planar Binding (storm elemental, 12 HD) Wizard 6 1080 gp
All together: 1890 gp
x12 22,680 gp

Total magical cost of guitar: 72,680
Multiplied by 1.5 for setting = 109,020
Plus standard material cost of 6,620 = 115,640 gold pieces

The axe is powered by a large celestial storm elemental (10 hd) that has been willingly bound into the instrument. Storm Elementals can be referenced on page 48 of the Monster Manual 3.

Power Metal Blast
Once per day, the axe can channel the storm elemental’s power as a supernatural ability, blasting out thunder and lightning around the wielder as the wielder strikes an insane cord on the guitar.
Sonic damage: 5d6 in a 60’ blast around the wielder. A DC 20 fortitude save halves this damage.
Electricity damage: 10d6 in a 120’ line from the wielder. A DC 20 reflex save halves this damage.

Granor’s abilities:
Looks really freakin’ awesome
+2 equipment bonus to perform checks
Can be amplified at will, changing the tone somewhat and allowing its music to be heard clearly at very long distances (-20 to listen check DCs to hear).
Strings are illusory, but function as a real instrument. Never break, return in 1d4 rounds if dispelled.
Power Metal Blast (su) 1/day (5d6 sonic damage, 60’ burst, DC 20 fort; 10d6 sonic damage in a 120’ line, DC 20 ref).

playswithfire
2010-03-27, 04:10 PM
Well, you didn't list ToB as a resource, but you're using Crusader, so I assume it's allowed, so how about this?

Bard 4/Crusader/Unarmed Swordsage/Jade Phoenix Mage 2/Unarmed Swordsage +1/Jade Phoenix Mage +3/Crusader +1/X 1 (only thought it out to 13)

Take Ascetic Mage as your 6th or 9th level feat (qualify at 6, not very useful til 9)

You get your third level spells, 2 1st level stances, a 3rd level stance and 2 5th level stances, 15 maneuvers known, 10 readied (6 of those as crudader, of which 3 are granted) and Charisma to AC in light armor

OverdrivePrime
2010-03-27, 04:24 PM
Well, you didn't list ToB as a resource, but you're using Crusader, so I assume it's allowed, so how about this?

Bard 4/Crusader/Unarmed Swordsage/Jade Phoenix Mage 2/Unarmed Swordsage +1/Jade Phoenix Mage +3/Crusader +1/X 1 (only thought it out to 13)

Take Ascetic Mage as your 6th or 9th level feat (qualify at 6, not very useful til 9)

You get your third level spells, 2 1st level stances, a 3rd level stance and 2 5th level stances, 15 maneuvers known, 10 readied (6 of those as crudader, of which 3 are granted) and Charisma to AC in light armor
Thanks! I forgot Tome of Battle and Tome of Magic in my allowed resources. That's been fixed!

I'm not familiar with the Unarmed Swordsage variant (haven't played a swordsage yet), but I'm a big fan of the JPM. This is a nice build, but I want to make sure that I can keep up as much IC as possible, and Song of the White Raven doesn't work with Swordsage, if I remember correctly.

What do you think about bard 4 vs bard 8? Or just pitch inspire courage and go with Jade Phoenix Mage and Abjurant Champion in later stages of the build?

Keld Denar
2010-03-27, 08:50 PM
Correct, Song of the White Raven doesn't work with Swordsage, because Swordsages don't get White Raven maneuvers.

I'd personally got Bard4/Crusader10. Bard8/Crusader6 loses an extra BAB, and without Songs of the Heart (ECS), Badge of Valor (MIC), or Inspirational Boost (SpC) on your approved list, you'll pretty much be rockin only a +3 bard song at 14th level. Thats kinda...underwhelming. Thusly, any loss of BAB hurts you even more if you plan on PAing with that "Axe".

I just looked it all up, and unfortunately you'll fall just short of nabbing Aura of Perfect Order at ECL12, which is pretty awesome. You could take it with Martial Stance if you get to level 15, but otherwise you won't get another stance until EC18 (Crusader 14).

PinkysBrain
2010-03-27, 09:07 PM
How about bard 4/crusader 2/Jade Phoenix Mage 4/Sublime Chord 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 3? :)

The fact of the matter is that you need lots of sources you aren't allowed to use to make inspire courage song powerful ... what you're left with by neglecting spellcasting is basically one measly extra point in attack bonus from inspire courage.

KellKheraptis
2010-03-27, 09:11 PM
How hardcore do you want the metalhead to be? Other than the nice and easy route of Bard/Crusader or Bard/Warblade, I've got a build floating around somewhere that nabs effective 15th level bard abilities, CL something like 58, and dual 9ths with 16 BAB at 20th. If this interests you (we'll call him King Diamond), lemme know :D

EvilBloodGnome
2010-03-27, 11:36 PM
I've been meaning to shape up a PrC like this for my campaign setting forever.

Prerequisites like bardic song, X ranks in Perform (Strings), Rage or Frenzy, and either Weapon Focus (Greataxe) or Weapon Focus (Battleaxe). then have that lead into a sort of Sublime Chord gish character with some offensive magic. Also something that lets them use their axe as a guitar with the power of METAL.

OverdrivePrime
2010-03-28, 08:12 AM
Hmm, man. Lots of tempting stuff out there.

Basically, the idea of the dude is to go forth and melt faces with his songs while providing front line support, buffs and damage.

If the Seeker of the Song's early abilities weren't so flippin' weak, I'd be tempted to just go with that. Seriously, you're an 11th level character when you start seeker of the song, and you're supposed to be impressed by a cone of 6d6 fire damage? Laaaaame!

I did just get the Spell Compendium approved, so I can get my Inspire Courage up one more, but yeah, no ultra-optimization on that one, unfortunately. Maybe just getting it to a +3 or +4 would be enough.

Though I wanted more of a guy to add style to the brute squad, the JPM --> Sublime Chord route may be the best for this guy. And it will certainly make an impression on the Druid and Arcane Trickster in the party who are teasing me for wanting to play a bard. :smallwink:



How hardcore do you want the metalhead to be? Other than the nice and easy route of Bard/Crusader or Bard/Warblade, I've got a build floating around somewhere that nabs effective 15th level bard abilities, CL something like 58, and dual 9ths with 16 BAB at 20th. If this interests you (we'll call him King Diamond), lemme know :D

Bring on King Diamond, KellKeraptis! I'd love to get more good ideas!

Thanks to everyone for the input! :smallsmile:

OverdrivePrime
2010-03-28, 08:41 AM
A thought - concentration is lame for caster bards who can just take the melodic casting feat. Can I use Melodic Casting to satisfy the Concentration: 9 requirement to enter JPM?

Also, due to the wildly varied skill requirements of this Metal Phoenix Bard,
(maximum Perform, Know Arcana 13, listen 13, Concentration 9, Astrologer 6, Spellcraft 6, Know History 2, Know Religion 2) Able Learner seems like it would be hugely helpful. What do you think? Useful or wasteful?

drakir_nosslin
2010-03-28, 09:12 AM
Well, you definitely need to check out The Disciple of Metal (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19523298/The_Disciple_of_Metal_PrC_Bard) - a heavy metal bard PrC from WotC:s forum.

OverdrivePrime
2010-03-28, 09:40 AM
Well, you definitely need to check out The Disciple of Metal (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19523298/The_Disciple_of_Metal_PrC_Bard) - a heavy metal bard PrC from WotC:s forum.
:smalleek: Its... it's full of stars. If only my DM was cool with other people's homebrew - that's the ultimate metal bard!

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-03-28, 10:23 AM
Honestly, I'd suggest Bard/Warblade focusing on Inspiration. If allowed, Dragonfire Insipiration (sonic) would be flippin' awesome! You not only have a lot of Sonic effects, but your allies are doing +(a bunch)d4 sonic damage on every swing!

PinkysBrain
2010-03-28, 01:05 PM
If the Seeker of the Song's early abilities weren't so flippin' weak, I'd be tempted to just go with that. Seriously, you're an 11th level character when you start seeker of the song, and you're supposed to be impressed by a cone of 6d6 fire damage? Laaaaame!
I like the Dirge Singer/Seeker of the Song combo with combine songs and subsonics ... with your first song you keep an undead servant around (indefinitely, just find a way to not get tired ... be a warforged or get an armor of unending hunt or something) with your second you spam refrains. On the whole though, yeah ... pretty weak.

OverdrivePrime
2010-03-31, 06:20 AM
Okay, so I talked with my DM and we've reworked the Jade Phoenix Made into a sort of Metal Phoenix, with the empowered spell and quickened spell stuff replaced with bonuses to Inspire Courage, and any references to fire replaced with Sonic energy. This guy is going to be so effing metal! :smallcool:

Anyway, My build at 14th level (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=195112) is now: Bard 4 / Crusader 2 / Jade Phoenix Mage (Metal Phoenix variant) 4 / Sublime Chord 2 / Abjurant Champion 2. I plan to finish out the character with another 6 levels of Metal Phoenix, if he survives that long.



Abjurant champion is a nice addition to any gish build, but I'd hate for its abilities to go to waste. Unfortunately, Shield isn't on the bard spell list. Are there any bard spells from levels 1-3 that are both abjurations and grant a shield or armor bonus?

Are there any other stellar abjuration spells for a bard? I've already got 2 other spontaneous casters in my party with Dispel Magic, so I don't feel that it's critical to add to my list. I'm particularly interested in 1st level spell that could constantly shine as a swift spell, thanks to the Abjurant Champion's Swift Abjuration ability.

PinkysBrain
2010-03-31, 06:54 AM
You can get a ring of Theurgy from Complete Arcane to get access to shield.

OverdrivePrime
2010-04-11, 11:28 AM
Thanks for everyone's help in the past with this guy. I'm now trying to perfect my spell list to fit the power metal theme while still covering my bases. There's a beguiler/shadowcraft mage in the party so most of the mind control and illusion spells are covered, but the player isn't so hot on thinking of field control or crowd control uses for his abilities. We've also got a arcane trickster in the party who loooooves her direct damage orb and ray spells, but doesn't do much else.

Here's my current spell list. Again, I can use the SRD, the Spell Compendium, the Complete X books (minus complete champion) and the Races of X spells (minus races of the dragon). Whaddaya think?

Cantrips
Summon Instrument, Mage Hand, Mending, Prestidigitation, Resistance, Detect Magic

1st Level
Inspirational Boost (SC), Amplify (SC), Expeditious Retreat, Hideous Laughter, Joyful Noise (SC)

2nd Level
Grace (SC), Whirling Blade (SC), Glitterdust, Tongues

3rd Level
Phantom Steed, Disobedience (Comp.Scndrl)

4th Level
Hold Monster, Sirine's Grace (SC), Fugue (SC) $, Freedom of Movement

5th Level
Song of Discord, Body Harmonic (SC),
(Want to get: wall of stone, should I swap one of the bard spells out for it?)

6th Level
Dirge (SC)

Renegade Paladin
2010-04-11, 11:41 AM
Well, obviously you're going to need the Shadow Axe (http://www.thebardstale.com/). :smalltongue: