Avatar: The Last Airbender question [TV Series]

[Kobold-Bard]

If what the Guru says to Aang is true, then the Avatar must let go of material attachments in order to master the Avatar State.

However in Series 3 we see that Roku could use the Avatar State at will, even though he was married.

Have I missed something? Did he not love his wife and she was just arm candy or something?

K-B

[Cubey]

The Guru could be wrong - it's not that there is only one way to avatarhood.

Alternatively, Roku had a family and friends, but he understood and accepted that he will lose them some day. That too is a viable interpretation of not being attached to the material things.

[ApeofLight]

I think what the thing here was is this.

Aang didn't get to the avatar state with the guru because he couldn't let go of all earthly feelings. I think that Roku did but that doesn't mean he could still love his wife. It just means that if it ever came down to a choice Roku would give her up without a second thought.

Though I have no clue if this is right.

[Kobold-Bard]

Well....I guess I'll never be the Avatar :smalltongue:

Thanks.

[TSGames]

Well....I guess I'll never be the Avatar :smalltongue:

Thanks.
But one day, with lots of practice, maybe you can be this guy:
http://www.premiere.com/var/ezflow_site/storage/images/galleries/WantedJamesMcAvoyWesleyGibsonLad/44383-1-eng-US/WantedJamesMcAvoyWesleyGibsonLad_imagelarge.jpg
Bullet Bending ftw.

[Prime32]

I think what the thing here was is this.

Aang didn't get to the avatar state with the guru because he couldn't let go of all earthly feelings. I think that Roku did but that doesn't mean he could still love his wife. It just means that if it ever came down to a choice Roku would give her up without a second thought.

Though I have no clue if this is right.I doubt it. Didn't Roku tell Aang that the Avatar can't give up worldly feelings since his duty is to the world?

[ApeofLight]

What I meant there was you care about the world as a whole more than anything. Nothing can stop you from protecting the world even if it means killing your wife or something.

Your priorities have to go something like this.
1)World
2)World
3)Other

[tyckspoon]

I doubt it. Didn't Roku tell Aang that the Avatar can't give up worldly feelings since his duty is to the world?

I don't see how the two have to be exclusive. No attachments is the state of mind Aang has to reach to allow the Avatar State to arise naturally without putting himself in mortal danger, what he has to do to let the full powers of the Avatar channel through him. It's not the same as telling him he must be an ascetic hermit; he just has to be allowed enough time and practice to achieve that centered, unattached state of mind efficiently, as presumably most or all of the previous Avatars did. Once he's able to do that he can have as many worldly attachments as he wants. He just has to learn to set them aside first.

[bosssmiley]

Roku's scheme:

Master Avatar state
Fall in love and get married

Man was smart enough to have his cake and eat it too. :smallamused:

[Lord Seth]

If what the Guru says to Aang is true, then the Avatar must let go of material attachments in order to master the Avatar State.

However in Series 3 we see that Roku could use the Avatar State at will, even though he was married.

Have I missed something? Did he not love his wife and she was just arm candy or something?

K-BThe answer is simple: The Avatar State is powered by plot. When the plot needs it, it activates. The plot needed him to use the Avatar State, so he did.

[Nerd-o-rama]

I side with Iroh and Roku on this on saying that Guru Pathik was full of crap. Or at least not being clear. You don't have to cut yourself off from the world or love to achieve full Avataritude, because that goes entirely counter to the idea. It's simply a matter of a focused and disciplined state of mind.

[Cubey]

Well, Guru Pathik's grasp on reality isn't exactly the strongest one out there. Have you seen what he's eating?
Erm, drinking?
...

Consuming?

[RedBeardJim]

I side with Iroh and Roku on this on saying that Guru Pathik was full of crap. Or at least not being clear. You don't have to cut yourself off from the world or love to achieve full Avataritude, because that goes entirely counter to the idea. It's simply a matter of a focused and disciplined state of mind.

Bingo. Combine Pathik being overly cryptic and Aang not being in a mood to listen, and you get "Oh, I think this is that episode where there's some kind of misunderstanding." After all, Aang *did* manage to go into the Avatar State in Crossroads of Destiny, but was just as much in love with Katara afterward.

[Platinum_Mongoose]

When it comes down to trusting the word of Iroh or the word of Random-One-Episode-Appearance-Guy, go with Iroh.

When it comes down to trusting the word of Iroh or pretty much anyone, go with Iroh.

[Kobold-Bard]

When it comes down to trusting the word of Iroh or the word of Random-One-Episode-Appearance-Guy, go with Iroh.

When it comes down to trusting the word of Iroh or pretty much anyone, go with Iroh.

I dunno. Iroh keeps switching sides. He's kinda like a better version of Noah Bennett from Heroes.

[The Glyphstone]

:smallsmile:Iroh was pretty consistent in his 'side'...he was on the side of Iroh the entire way through.:smallsmile:

[Kobold-Bard]

:smallsmile:Iroh was pretty consistent in his 'side'...he was on the side of Iroh the entire way through.:smallsmile:

Now he sounds exactly like Noah Bennett :smallamused:

[Platinum_Mongoose]

But he was never manipulative, and genuinely wanted what was best for Zuko. It just so happened that he was the first person to realize that siding with the Avatar was what was best for Zuko. Zuko... took more convincing.

[Jerthanis]

Bingo. Combine Pathik being overly cryptic and Aang not being in a mood to listen, and you get "Oh, I think this is that episode where there's some kind of misunderstanding." After all, Aang *did* manage to go into the Avatar State in Crossroads of Destiny, but was just as much in love with Katara afterward.

Incidentally, I had hoped that he had given up his love for Katara to save her life. I hoped that season 3 would reverse their relationship, with Katara acting moonstruck and Aang mostly disaffected. I thought that would be a cool plot, and that it could play out him slowly falling back in love with her again. Instead he woke up still in love with her and it just made the whole conflict about giving up the things he cared about completely moot.

[Jahkaivah]

I dunno. Iroh keeps switching sides. He's kinda like a better version of Noah Bennett from Heroes.

Iroh was on the good side right from the begining of the series and never budged, that was the reason for his crouching moron hidden badass, he was only pretending to be incompetent to hinder the fire nation's efforts. If he didn't care for Zuko he would have abandoned his nation sooner.

[Serpentine]

If what the Guru says to Aang is true, then the Avatar must let go of material attachments in order to master the Avatar State.

However in Series 3 we see that Roku could use the Avatar State at will, even though he was married.

Have I missed something? Did he not love his wife and she was just arm candy or something?

K-B"Letting go of material attachments" does not mean "never care about anything or anyone again". It meant, I think, more "let go of the fear of losing those things you care about". Aang misinterpreted this as "stop caring about the things you care about". A bit like Star Wars, in that regard: it was the fear that was the problem, not the love, and the fear that prevented him from being able to stop that which he feared.
As described above, moreover, it's more of a temporary(ish) state of mind, like meditation, than a way of life - he had to put aside his everyday concerns in order to temporarily and at-will enter the Avatar State. When he didn't need the Avatar State, he could take up those concerns again.

[Zevox]

I dunno. Iroh keeps switching sides. He's kinda like a better version of Noah Bennett from Heroes.
Iroh never switched sides - he was never really on the Firelord's side to begin with. Think about his actions in season 1. With how powerful and skilled of a bender he is, he could have helped Zuko capture Aang quite easily back then, but he always sat those conflicts out. Heck, the only times he even does any bending in that entire season are to block Zhou's attack on Zuko after their agni-kai, to free himself from the earthbenders that captured him, and to oppose Zhou during the Siege of the North. Once to protect Zuko, once to save himself, once to outright oppose one of the series villains. A rather apt summary of his priorities, don't you think?

As for the original question of the topic, others have already made the guesses I would have. Of course, I haven't yet seen whichever episode Roku enters the avatar state in (never saw that season while it was on TV, currently working my way through the series via Netflix, just saw the 3rd disk of the season today), so that was news to me. I had figured after seeing "The Avatar and the Firelord" that Roku's marriage meant that, like Aang, he had rejected mastering the Avatar State in favor of his love, but if he could enter it anyway I'd guess that there was some misinterpretation on Aang's part about what exactly "letting go" of Katara meant for that final chakra. Well, either that, or Roku found another way to master the Avatar State entirely.

Zevox

[The Glyphstone]

Alternatively, the writers just forgot their own continuity?

[endoperez]

As described above, moreover, it's more of a temporary(ish) state of mind, like meditation, than a way of life - he had to put aside his everyday concerns in order to temporarily and at-will enter the Avatar State. When he didn't need the Avatar State, he could take up those concerns again.

This is how I understood it, although the priorities thing also comes into it - the world comes first, then your love - or your friendships. Think of the Roku - Sozin friendship. The friendship was still there, but Roku the Avatar could not let the friendship affect what the avatar does.


Jerthanis' suggestion was cool, though. Turning the relationship around would've been a nice inversion of the trope.

[Kobold-Bard]

This is how I understood it, although the priorities thing also comes into it - the world comes first, then your love - or your friendships. Think of the Roku - Sozin friendship. The friendship was still there, but Roku the Avatar could not let the friendship affect what the avatar does.


Jerthanis' suggestion was cool, though. Turning the relationship around would've been a nice inversion of the trope.

Yeah I thought of that while in Sainsburys.

This is far more replies than I expected this topic to get. Cool :smallbiggrin:

[Zevox]

Alternatively, the writers just forgot their own continuity?
Seems unlikely, considering their track record in that area. Hell, they even toss in minor details that make no difference to the story just for the hell of it from time to time. For instance, in the season 1 episode "The Fortune Teller," a man hands the gang an umbrella at the start of the episode, because the titular fortune teller had told him to give one to anyone he meets, since it was going to rain. In the middle of season 2, when a group of sandbenders rummages through the heroes' belongings for anything worth stealing, that umbrella is among the items to fall out of their pack.

And there are plenty of individual lines of dialogue in season 3 which reference season 1 events and dialogue which were minor details. For instance, when Sokka asks to be trained by swordsmaster Piandao, Piandao remarks something along the lines of: "Let me guess - you've come all the way from your little village, where you're the best swordsman in town, and think you're worthy to train with the master?" Which is almost word-for-word a boast Sokka made to the Kyoshi Warriors way back at the start of season 1.

Yeah, not much discontinuity in this show.

A thought I had about the chakras: it does seem pretty clear that opening each chakra does not mean that the thing blocking it went away entirely. For instance, the first chakra required Aang to let go of his fear of defeat at the Firelord's hands, yet we get him stressing out like crazy just before the Day of Black Sun invasion all the same. He also continues to have trepidations about learning firebending due to his guilt over burning Katara right up until he accepted Zuko as his teacher, even though he was supposed to give up on that guilt to open the third chakra.

Zevox

[Yora]

I think the thing with the chakra is the same conflict that is ongoing in the entire third season.
It's not only that he has to break his atachment from Katara, she's only the best representation of all the people Aang cares for. And Aang cares for everyone.
Everyone is telling him he has to kill the Firelord, but he does not want to, because this is opposed to his own believes. Then he asks the former avatars and they also tell him that he must kill and ignore his compassion for everyone, including the firelord. They are telling him that he has to abandon his own believes and just do the avatar job as he is supposed to be.
And I think this is what the final chakra is about, it's only represented by Katara, for whom he cares the most. He would not sacrifice her, as he would not sacrifice anyone.

[Xondoure]

Isn't the point of the entire show that it's possible to do your duty without compromising your beliefs? That's the impression I got with the whole kill or let the world burn conflict and how it was resolved... :smallconfused:

[RedBeardJim]

Isn't the point of the entire show that it's possible to do your duty without compromising your beliefs? That's the impression I got with the whole kill or let the world burn conflict and how it was resolved... :smallconfused:

That, and "love is stronger than fear," yeah.

Edit: and if you go back and listen to the past Avatars, none of them actually say "Hey dude, kill Ozai." Roku and Kuruk both basically just say "Make up your mind and *do something*, unlike us." Kyoshi says that Disney deaths still count as killing, and that "only justice will bring peace," which is nice and ambiguous like only spiritual advice can be, and it's actually Yangchen who gets the closest to telling Aang that he needs to kill Ozai, except what she actually says is that the needs of the world come before his. Aang, being: a) 12, and b) not in a good mental place to begin with, goes from all that to "I guess I have to kill the Firelord."

[Lord Seth]

Incidentally, I had hoped that he had given up his love for Katara to save her life. I hoped that season 3 would reverse their relationship, with Katara acting moonstruck and Aang mostly disaffected. I thought that would be a cool plot, and that it could play out him slowly falling back in love with her again. Instead he woke up still in love with her and it just made the whole conflict about giving up the things he cared about completely moot.Just like everything else in season three!

[Zevox]

Isn't the point of the entire show that it's possible to do your duty without compromising your beliefs? That's the impression I got with the whole kill or let the world burn conflict and how it was resolved... :smallconfused:

That, and "love is stronger than fear," yeah.
Amongst a great many other themes, really. From feminist ones (Sokka & the Kyoshi Warriors, Katara's trouble getting Master Pakku to train her, the abundance of badass female characters in general), to humility (Iroh), to determining your own "destiny" (Zuko), to the consequences of war (everything focusing on what the war was doing to the common people of each nation - and also Iroh's son ["Leaves from the vine..." :smallfrown: ], Katara & Sokka's mother, etc). Too many to list, really.

Zevox

[Cisturn]

Roku's scheme:

Master Avatar state
Fall in love and get married

Man was smart enough to have his cake and eat it too. :smallamused:

i agree this guy, awesome

[Jerthanis]

Just like everything else in season three!

Wait... I'm having trouble parsing what part of my paragraph you're saying is generalized over everything in Season 3.

Wasted potential? Aang being lovestruck by Katara?

[Telonius]

I think there's a bit of confusion between "being detached" and "not caring." The two aren't exactly the same.

For example, I like most of the stuff I own. All else equal, I'd like to keep most of it. But if my house burned down tomorrow, I'd be upset. I do care. But it wouldn't be the end of the world. I wouldn't wail about how unfair the universe was being to me for burning down my house. My life would continue. I would rebuild and get another house, and other useful things to fill it with. Same way with my family. If, while I'm at work today, my wife and daughter died in a car crash, I'd be stricken with grief. It would take some time to get over. But I wouldn't make their deaths the center of my life forever afterwards.

I think that Aang was also confusing the two. He thought the Guru was telling him not to care about Katara, when all he was telling was to be detached from Katara.

[Haven]

Nonattachment is a Buddhist principle based on the acceptance that the material world and everything we experience in it is temporary. He doesn't have to give up Katara, but he does have to accept that someday he'll lose her (if nothing else, she'll probably die before he does, since avatars seem to be extraordinarily long lived).

Though I agree that taking it too far and actually giving up his love for Katara would have been an interesting twist.

[BRC]

The Avatar State is a defense mechanism, a powerful one, but a defense mechanism. It triggers when an Avatar feels threatened, or in a high emotional state. While in the Avatar state, the Avatar has little control over their actions, merely acting to remove the danger.

The Guru's "Give up all attachment" thing is not about using the Avatar state, it's about gaining greater control over it. Controlling when it activates, and what you do while in it.


It's also possible that there are other ways to gain this control, Roku was an experienced Avatar, Aang was young. The Guru's method might have just been a short cut

[Jahkaivah]

It's also possible that there are other ways to gain this control, Roku was an experienced Avatar, Aang was young. The Guru's method might have just been a short cut

Nirvana is the short cut? Man I would hate to see what the proper way of doing it is. :smalltongue:

[Zevox]

The Guru's "Give up all attachment" thing is not about using the Avatar state, it's about gaining greater control over it. Controlling when it activates, and what you do while in it.
Correct me if I'm mistaken, but the first post of this thread indicates that when Roku entered the state, it was an active decision of his ("at will"), not the defense mechanism aspect triggering. I haven't seen the episode it occurs in (I have six more season 3 episodes yet to see, with this one apparently among them), so I'm not certain which it was, but I doubt the OP would have had his question, or everyone would have been taking it seriously, if the answer were simply that Roku had the defense mechanism aspect of it trigger.

Zevox

[Lord Seth]

Wait... I'm having trouble parsing what part of my paragraph you're saying is generalized over everything in Season 3.

Wasted potential? Aang being lovestruck by Katara?I meant wasted potential.

[Zevox]

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but the first post of this thread indicates that when Roku entered the state, it was an active decision of his ("at will"), not the defense mechanism aspect triggering. I haven't seen the episode it occurs in (I have six more season 3 episodes yet to see, with this one apparently among them), so I'm not certain which it was, but I doubt the OP would have had his question, or everyone would have been taking it seriously, if the answer were simply that Roku had the defense mechanism aspect of it trigger.
So, I just finished seeing the remaining episodes I hadn't seen... and Roku barely entered into them for a few lines of advice to Aang. So, unless I'm forgetting something major from The Avatar and the Firelord, the only season 3 episode where Roku did play a major role, the OP's premise for this thread was, well, wrong. Roku was never shown entering the Avatar State.

Now, there is the question of how the hell Aang entered the Avatar State during the finale, which does still seem to indicate that Pathik didn't know everything about the Avatar State, but still.

Zevox

[Tavar]

I believe that he entered the avatar state once in the Avatar and the Firelord episode. Well, twice, but the first time it's uncontrolled, and he goes all CRUSH KILL DESTROY on the fire temple. The next time, he's trying to stop the erupting volcano, and his eyes flash for a second.

[Zevox]

...you sure you're not mixing up that first one with when he manifested in place of Aang's Avatar State during season 1? Because the only time I recall him destroying a building in The Avatar and the Firelord is when he confronted Sozin about the colonies, and I'm pretty certain he didn't enter the Avatar State there. Plus that was at the Firelord's palace, not a temple, and he was plainly in control, since he quite deliberately spared Sozin.

I don't remember the second, but if it's just a brief a moment, I might have missed or forgotten it, and I guess it would count. Though why he'd enter the state for a brief moment then, when he was an old man and a fully realized Avatar with all of the powers that entails at his disposal anyway, I don't know.

Better question: creating lightning with firebending is supposed to require a calm, centered mind, right? That was why Zuko couldn't learn to do it back in season 2. So, why could Azula still do it in the season 3 finale, when her mind was anything but calm and centered?

Zevox

[Jerthanis]

I meant wasted potential.

In that case, definitely agreed.

[Serpentine]

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but the first post of this thread indicates that when Roku entered the state, it was an active decision of his ("at will"), not the defense mechanism aspect triggering. I haven't seen the episode it occurs in (I have six more season 3 episodes yet to see, with this one apparently among them), so I'm not certain which it was, but I doubt the OP would have had his question, or everyone would have been taking it seriously, if the answer were simply that Roku had the defense mechanism aspect of it trigger.

ZevoxYou're wrong :smalltongue: Or rather, you're wrong about him being wrong. At least, if I'm understanding what you're getting at.

The Guru's "Give up all attachment" thing is not about using the Avatar state, it's about gaining greater control over it. Controlling when it activates, and what you do while in it.Actually... Reading over it again, I'm not at all certain what it is you are saying :smallconfused: I was going to correct what I thought was your misconception that BRC was saying it's always instinctive, when in fact it is both a reflexive action and something the avatar can learn to activate at will and have greater control over.
But now, I don't think that's what you're getting at, but I still think you're wrong :smalltongue: So, I'll just list a bunch of facts and opinions, and hope one of them hits the target:
The Avatar State is an instinctive defense mechanism, in which, at least initially, the Avatar is not totally aware of what he is doing.
The Avatar can learn to control the State, allowing him to activate it at will and control what he does.
Part of gaining this control, according to a random guru, is learning detachment from material things.
For Aang, this means "letting go" of Katara, so that his fear of losing her does not interfere with his ability to control the Avatar State.
"Detachment" and "letting go" does not mean not caring, ignoring, or losing said material things/people. Alternatively, it means doing so only temporarily, to allow the Avatar to gain the mental state necessary to control the Avatar State. Possibly a combination of the two.
Therefore, Roku's ability to enter the Avatar state (which apparently may or may not be shown on-screen, though I have a feeling it is somewhere, if only in the opening credits...) is not incompatible with him having people he cares deeply about, such as a wife and child.
I think that about covers it...

On Aang's Avatar State in the finale: Yeah, I thought that was pretty dodgy. "You need to think hard, meditate hard, and change your entire worldview and attitude to those you care about! Oh, no, wait, a rock to the back will do it..."

On Azula: Have you ever read Tamora Pierce's Circle series? She spends a lot of time describing the details of meditation and learning to reach their power source. They train and practice so hard and so often, that eventually, no matter the situation, they can spend a split second to get in the right frame of mind, sort of a mini-meditation that takes no real time at all, necessary to perform the magic.
Perhaps it's something like that? Getting into the "calm centred mind" has been drilled into her so much that that part of her mind just does it automatically, while the rest of her mind does whatever the hell it wants to?

[RedBeardJim]

Therefore, Roku's ability to enter the Avatar state (which apparently may or may not be shown on-screen, though I have a feeling it is somewhere, if only in the opening credits...) is not incompatible with him having people he cares deeply about, such as a wife and child.[/list]

They showed him doing it twice in "The Avatar and the Firelord" -- once when he was trashing Sozin's palace, and once when he was fighting the volcano.

[Zevox]

On Aang's Avatar State in the finale: Yeah, I thought that was pretty dodgy. "You need to think hard, meditate hard, and change your entire worldview and attitude to those you care about! Oh, no, wait, a rock to the back will do it..."
Yeah, half of the finale was dodgy that way. Particularly the "where the hell did that come from?" of the Lion-Turtle and Energybending.


On Azula: Have you ever read Tamora Pierce's Circle series? She spends a lot of time describing the details of meditation and learning to reach their power source. They train and practice so hard and so often, that eventually, no matter the situation, they can spend a split second to get in the right frame of mind, sort of a mini-meditation that takes no real time at all, necessary to perform the magic.
Perhaps it's something like that? Getting into the "calm centred mind" has been drilled into her so much that that part of her mind just does it automatically, while the rest of her mind does whatever the hell it wants to?
So, a "you never forget how to ride a bicycle" type of thing, eh? Well, maybe. Personally I'd have a hard time accepting even that, though. By the time she started shooting lightning in that fight her mental state had reached full-blown cackling madness. If Zuko's feelings of shame were enough to keep him from using lightning, I'd tend to think that Azula's spiraling mindset ought to keep her from doing it then. It sure had eroded everything else about the discipline that had until then been one of her most defining traits into near nothingness.

Zevox

[Douglas]

On Aang's Avatar State in the finale: Yeah, I thought that was pretty dodgy. "You need to think hard, meditate hard, and change your entire worldview and attitude to those you care about! Oh, no, wait, a rock to the back will do it..."
That whole meditation thing was specifically for triggering it deliberately and remaining in complete control, though. In the finale, the Avatar State got triggered involuntarily the old fashioned extreme-peril-and-distress way. All the rock did was jog the chakra that was located there, finally unclogging it from the damage Azula did to it at the end of season 2 (presumably this was made possible by gradual healing in the intervening time).


If Zuko's feelings of shame were enough to keep him from using lightning, I'd tend to think that Azula's spiraling mindset ought to keep her from doing it then.
Zuko was trying to learn it for the first time, though. Azula had been shooting lightning for years.

[Kobold-Bard]

They showed him doing it twice in "The Avatar and the Firelord" -- once when he was trashing Sozin's palace, and once when he was fighting the volcano.

This is.what I was talking about.

[Lord Seth]

Yeah, half of the finale was dodgy that way. Particularly the "where the hell did that come from?" of the Lion-Turtle and Energybending.And of the plot of the finale himself (Zuko didn't think mentioning genocide was important? Seriously?) or Aang's contrived dilemma.

[Zevox]

That whole meditation thing was specifically for triggering it deliberately and remaining in complete control, though. In the finale, the Avatar State got triggered involuntarily the old fashioned extreme-peril-and-distress way. All the rock did was jog the chakra that was located there, finally unclogging it from the damage Azula did to it at the end of season 2 (presumably this was made possible by gradual healing in the intervening time).
But the locked chakra was Aang's seventh, which was located at the crown of his head according to Pathik. He opened the other six. And how exactly does it make sense for a physical blow like that to unlock a chakra in the first place, considering they seem to be a strictly spiritual phenomena?

Since I know you'll mention it, Azula's blow was able to lock it because she interrupted him in the middle of opening the seventh chakra and completing the process of mastering the state. There was no comparable situation in the season 3 finale.


Zuko was trying to learn it for the first time, though. Azula had been shooting lightning for years.
As I was trying to say with the post you quoted, Azula's mental state was also a hell of a lot worse than Zuko's. About as bad as you can get without gibbering idiocy or constant hallucinations (and she had already started with at least one hallucination...).


And of the plot of the finale himself (Zuko didn't think mentioning genocide was important? Seriously?) or Aang's contrived dilemma.
No, those made sense. Zuko thought Aang still intended to confront Ozai before the comet, so he was focused on his training. And besides, Zuko has never been the brightest bulb in the bunch - this is the guy who announced to Firelord Ozai's face that the Avatar was alive and he intended to join him, teach him firebending, and help bring Ozai down. Oh, and decided not to take the opportunity to try and cut Ozai down when he was powerless, even after he had it pointed out to him that he had that opportunity. Zuko has a flare for the dramatic, but not so much the practical.

And Aang not wanting to kill Ozai makes perfect sense on a number of levels, from the Air Nomad culture and beliefs to the simple fact that even though he's experienced so much and matured so much over the past year, he's still a twelve/thirteen-year-old kid. I can completely understand him being more than a little troubled by the idea of actively setting out to kill someone, even a person like Ozai. Hell, I even like the idea of solving the problem by finding a way to remove Ozai's ability to bend. Just not doing so with a come-from-nowhere plot device that they barely took time to minimally set up in the last few episodes of the series.

Zevox

[Lord Seth]

No, those made sense. Zuko thought Aang still intended to confront Ozai before the comet, so he was focused on his training.No, it was still dumb. Even if Zuko thought Aang was going to confront Ozai earlier, it still doesn't make any sense to not tell him. It's genocide, for crying out loud. You'd think that would be the first thing he'd tell him. Though admittedly, you could explain it by Zuko being stupid, but I don't think he's that stupid.


And Aang not wanting to kill Ozai makes perfect sense on a number of levels, from the Air Nomad culture and beliefs to the simple fact that even though he's experienced so much and matured so much over the past year, he's still a twelve/thirteen-year-old kid. I can completely understand him being more than a little troubled by the idea of actively setting out to kill someone, even a person like Ozai.That's not what I meant. Here's why it's contrived:
1) It was never brought up before. Before this, what the heck did they think they were going to do when they fought Ozai? There's especially no excuse for it not being brought up in Day of Black Sun, when Aang was going to fight Ozai. Yes, Ozai'd be powerless, but what did they plan to do with the guy after he got his power back? It's ridiculous to think that it was never brought up then.
2) Aang's aversion to killing was never shown to be this strong; obviously he like the other main characters would prefer to avoid killing, but it was never shown to be this strong. Here's an example. In the first season finale, the Avatar State comes up, and he destroys the Fire Nation fleet, undoubtedly causing many deaths. But then he's shown trying to reawaken it in the next episode. Granted, he does do so reluctantly, but if he really felt that him not killing anyone was that important, he should've rejected it regardless.
3) Aang's dilemma is contradicted by the finale himself. He strikes down the blimp Ozai is on, causing it to crash. Aang seems to not care at all about all the other people who undoubtedly were inside the blimp. Even if we assume that they all survived the crash, Aang never shows any sign of caring about them, like bothering to go and check. Remember: He doesn't want to kill a genocidal dictator because he doesn't want to take anyone's life, but apparently killing a bunch of mooks is fine by him. This isn't like Star Wars where Luke will kill lots of mooks but doesn't want to kill Vader because Vader is his father; Vader being his father is something that doesn't apply to the mooks. But Aang's reason for not wanting to kill Ozai is because he doesn't want to kill anyone, which should apply to the mooks he evidently doesn't care about. Moral dissonance ahoy!


Hell, I even like the idea of solving the problem by finding a way to remove Ozai's ability to bend. Just not doing so with a come-from-nowhere plot device that they barely took time to minimally set up in the last few episodes of the series.I think it would've been best to not bring up the dilemma in the first place. Aang could still meet the Lion-Turtle, he could still use the power, and it would allow them to get around the fact that Nickelodeon probably told them they couldn't have him kill Ozai. Thus they'd be able to get around that, without it feeling like a giant cop-out, not to mention invalidating a large portion of the finale, and they could've used that extra time to do things like resolve the Zuko's mother plot point.

[Zevox]

No, it was still dumb. Even if Zuko thought Aang was going to confront Ozai earlier, it still doesn't make any sense to not tell him. It's genocide, for crying out loud. You'd think that would be the first thing he'd tell him. Though admittedly, you could explain it by Zuko being stupid, but I don't think he's that stupid.
Eh, I don't know. I could see him thinking it was something that would be rendered irrelevant because Aang was going to confront Ozai before it would happen at all, so there was no point in worrying everyone about it. Not the brightest thought, but again, Zuko's not the brightest character around either.


That's not what I meant. Here's why it's contrived:
1) It was never brought up before. Before this, what the heck did they think they were going to do when they fought Ozai? There's especially no excuse for it not being brought up in Day of Black Sun, when Aang was going to fight Ozai. Yes, Ozai'd be powerless, but what did they plan to do with the guy after he got his power back? It's ridiculous to think that it was never brought up then.
An understandable criticism, one I'd agree with. Though from a time point-of-view, the Day of Black Sun event was already so chock full of things happening that this entering the equation could have been quite a problem, and Aang had spent the whole time beforehand stressing about the possibility that he would lose.

...actually, they probably could've improved the whole "Nightmares and Daydreams" episode by introducing this alongside Aang's fears about losing to Ozai. But of course that was, in my opinion, the weakest episode of the entire series, so there's a lot I think could have improved it.


2) Aang's aversion to killing was never shown to be this strong; obviously he like the other main characters would prefer to avoid killing, but it was never shown to be this strong. Here's an example. In the first season finale, the Avatar State comes up, and he destroys the Fire Nation fleet, undoubtedly causing many deaths. But then he's shown trying to reawaken it in the next episode. Granted, he does do so reluctantly, but if he really felt that him not killing anyone was that important, he should've rejected it regardless.
No, I'd say there are obvious reasons for the difference there. With the Avatar State he couldn't control his actions, and it was his concern over that, and what he might he do in the State because of it, that dominated his fears about using it. Aversion to killing probably played a part, but was overshadowed by the combination of the enormity of the power he wielded with it and his inability to control himself when doing so. The impersonal nature of any deaths he may have caused with the fleet (which, incidentally, he did only push away on a massive wave, not sink) probably also prevented him from thinking about them that much - if anybody died because of his spirit-powered avatar rampage against the fleet, he didn't see it happen. "Out of sight, out of mind," if you will. With Ozai he was being asked to kill someone outright, of his own free will, up close and personal. That's going to weigh quite heavy on his mind.

Inconsistent? Sure. But he is a twelve-year-old kid. Wise beyond his years he may be, but he's still hardly at the point where he can be expected to have worked out everything with regards to his beliefs. Especially when you consider that all of the maturing he's had to do has occurred in such a brief span of time. From his perspective, less than a year ago he was still a completely carefree kid. And now he has to deal with life and death situations. It's hardly surprising that his reactions along the way may not always be entirely consistent with any single philosophy.

(He also apparently didn't think he'd ever caused any deaths, even in the Avatar State, given he said as much outright when talking to Avatar Yangchen, the Air Nomad woman.)

As an aside related to the general gist of your comment though, I do think that part of how they introduced Aang's reluctance at the start of the Sozin's Comet episodes was a bit much. Being unwilling to strike the "melonlord" dummy? Really? That's where he starts to show that he feels hesitant about the whole thing? They could've done much better than that. Hell, they did, with Zuko's final comment in "The Southern Raiders," but apparently they couldn't just pick that back up directly...


3) Aang's dilemma is contradicted by the finale himself. He strikes down the blimp Ozai is on, causing it to crash. Aang seems to not care at all about all the other people who undoubtedly were inside the blimp.
Again, very valid criticism. Even with everything I said above about the impersonal nature of deaths he cannot see happening, he was in a mindset of great concern about killing at the time, so he should have been more attentive to that. It strikes me as more of a reason to change that aspect of the finale, though, not a reason not to include the dilemma of killing Ozai. Say, have Aang cushion the fall of the blimp somehow, and show a brief scene of some of the crew looking out a window at him as he does. Something of that sort.


Ithink it would've been best to not bring up the dilemma in the first place. Aang could still meet the Lion-Turtle, he could still use the power, and it would allow them to get around the fact that Nickelodeon probably told them they couldn't have him kill Ozai. Thus they'd be able to get around that, without it feeling like a giant cop-out, not to mention invalidating a large portion of the finale, and they could've used that extra time to do things like resolve the Zuko's mother plot point.
We'll have to disagree there, then. Without significantly better setup, I would have preferred not to have the Lion-Turtle/Energybending aspect at all, but I'm fine with including the dilemma of killing Ozai.

I personally also don't think the whole thing was Nick telling them they couldn't kill Ozai. They'd killed off characters before. Zhao at the end of season 1. Jet in season 2 (though admittedly they were forced to be somewhat ambiguous about it, it was still clear enough given Toph's comment as the group left him). Plenty of characters get killed off-screen and have that get talked about pretty openly, like Katara and Sokka's mother and Iroh's son. They'd just have had to do it in a way that didn't constitute violence too graphic for the original target demographic of the show, like with Zhao.

Zevox

[Lord Seth]

We'll have to disagree there, then. Without significantly better setup, I would have preferred not to have the Lion-Turtle/Energybending aspect at all, but I'm fine with including the dilemma of killing Ozai.I'm really not. Outside of the fact it's contrived for reasons I've mentioned, I don't think things like the morality of killing people is really something that can be handled correctly in a kid's show. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate it when kid's show push boundaries, but that doesn't mean no boundaries exist. Not recognizing those boundaries result in things like the Captain Planet AIDS episode, where they try to handle a subject that they can't properly handle on a kid's show, resulting in a giant mess.

But my problem with the killing dilemma isn't even so much that it was resolved via one of the most blatant deus ex machinas I've seen, it's the fact that it makes the entire dilemma pointless (yet another example of how season three spent time building something up only for it to end up having little or no payoff). The fact they could've cut out the dilemma altogether is proof of that. And the episode would've been better for it! No DEM, no contrived dilemma, and they could've spent that time on fixing the other problems. It's also the fact it would have been such an easy fix that leaves me scratching my head that they didn't do that. If they were not allowed to have Aang kill Ozai or just didn't want to, they could've easily avoided that without dumping this dilemma on us.


I personally also don't think the whole thing was Nick telling them they couldn't kill Ozai. They'd killed off characters before. Zhao at the end of season 1. Jet in season 2 (though admittedly they were forced to be somewhat ambiguous about it, it was still clear enough given Toph's comment as the group left him). Plenty of characters get killed off-screen and have that get talked about pretty openly, like Katara and Sokka's mother and Iroh's son. They'd just have had to do it in a way that didn't constitute violence too graphic for the original target demographic of the show, like with Zhao.I'll admit I don't know exactly what occurred behind the scenes. My point is that even if Nickelodeon point-blank told them "you can't have Aang kill Ozai" (and remember, corporations aren't always the most consistent in what they will or won't allow), they still could've easily fixed it to not have it be as dumb as it was. If Nickelodeon didn't tell them that, then that just throws even that excuse out. What I'm trying to say is, if they did have that constraint on them (either by Nickelodeon or self-imposed), they shouldn't have trotted out the whole dumb dilemma in the first place. And if they didn't, then that just gives them even less of an excuse.

[Zevox]

I'm really not. Outside of the fact it's contrived for reasons I've mentioned, I don't think things like the morality of killing people is really something that can be handled correctly in a kid's show. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate it when kid's show push boundaries, but that doesn't mean no boundaries exist. Not recognizing those boundaries result in things like the Captain Planet AIDS episode, where they try to handle a subject that they can't properly handle on a kid's show, resulting in a giant mess.
As I said then, we'll just have to disagree. I'd say that Avatar proved plenty of times over that they can handle adult-level themes on the show, and they could have done this just as well, had they changed some things around, starting with the resolution.

Zevox

[Telonius]

Better question: creating lightning with firebending is supposed to require a calm, centered mind, right? That was why Zuko couldn't learn to do it back in season 2. So, why could Azula still do it in the season 3 finale, when her mind was anything but calm and centered?

Zevox

IIRC, her lightning was a different color than Zuko's. Obviously it was powered by the Dark Side. :smallbiggrin:

[Yora]

I think they handled genocide pretty well.

And it comes up quite a lot.

[Zevox]

IIRC, her lightning was a different color than Zuko's. Obviously it was powered by the Dark Side. :smallbiggrin:
Er, her fire was, yes. Though why isn't clear, her firebending was blue, rather than the usual yellow-orange-red mix. Her lightning, though, was the same as that used by Ozai and Iroh, the only other firebenders known to be able to use that technique. Zuko never learned to use lightning, only to redirect it.

Zevox

[Lord Seth]

As I said then, we'll just have to disagree. I'd say that Avatar proved plenty of times over that they can handle adult-level themes on the show, and they could have done this just as well, had they changed some things around, starting with the resolution.I may not have been quite clear with what I was saying. I was saying that assuming they were told "you can't have Aang kill Ozai" then it was absurd for them to make such a big deal out of it as a dilemma if they were just going to duck it. It would've been improved if energybending hadn't been a deus ex machina they pulled out of nowhere, but it still would've been a cop-out that really invalidated the whole thing. If they decided to have it resolved by Aang killing Ozai, fine, no problem with that, I'm just saying that if they were somehow forbidden from that, they shouldn't have brought up the dilemma in the first place if they were just going to duck it all, especially with such an absurd deus ex machina. Maybe if Aang actually had done something to get energybending rather than having it dumped randomly into his lap, that could have worked...but the point is, we both at least agree that the way it was pulled off was bad.


I think they handled genocide pretty well.

And it comes up quite a lot.Actually, they handled it pretty poorly, or at least the character's reaction to it was. Remember: The blimps need to be stopped immediately or there will be genocide, and quite likely an automatic win for the Fire Nation in the entire war. So naturally our heroes decide to split themselves up, with only one group trying to stop the genocide, while the other groups go and do things that are nowhere near as pressing nor, should they fail, have anywhere near the consequences that failing to stop the blimps would. It carries the message that they didn't think stopping genocide should be their number one priority. Nice one!

[Zevox]

I may not have been quite clear with what I was saying. I was saying that assuming they were told "you can't have Aang kill Ozai" then it was absurd for them to make such a big deal out of it as a dilemma if they were just going to duck it. It would've been improved if energybending hadn't been a deus ex machina they pulled out of nowhere, but it still would've been a cop-out that really invalidated the whole thing. If they decided to have it resolved by Aang killing Ozai, fine, no problem with that, I'm just saying that if they were somehow forbidden from that, they shouldn't have brought up the dilemma in the first place if they were just going to duck it all, especially with such an absurd deus ex machina. Maybe if Aang actually had done something to get energybending rather than having it dumped randomly into his lap, that could have worked...but the point is, we both at least agree that the way it was pulled off was bad.
Sounds pretty much like part of the reason why I didn't like the whole Energybending thing. So then yes, we are in agreement in there.

Zevox

[Force]

[QUOTE=Lord Seth;8200714]
3) Aang's dilemma is contradicted by the finale himself. He strikes down the blimp Ozai is on, causing it to crash. Aang seems to not care at all about all the other people who undoubtedly were inside the blimp. Even if we assume that they all survived the crash, Aang never shows any sign of caring about them, like bothering to go and check. Remember: He doesn't want to kill a genocidal dictator because he doesn't want to take anyone's life, but apparently killing a bunch of mooks is fine by him. This isn't like Star Wars where Luke will kill lots of mooks but doesn't want to kill Vader because Vader is his father; Vader being his father is something that doesn't apply to the mooks. But Aang's reason for not wanting to kill Ozai is because he doesn't want to kill anyone, which should apply to the mooks he evidently doesn't care about. Moral dissonance ahoy!QUOTE]

Aang seems to believe that the battle is going to come down to himself and Ozai (as it did). There's a great deal of difference in blasting a blimp out of the air than there is engaging someone in combat with the intent to kill them. In addition, there was a possibility that he might have to actually strike down a disabled-yet-still-alive Ozai. Without the idea that the eclipse would handily solve the problem for him, it's not that illogical that Aang would have started thinking a lot more about killing during the comet as compared to during the eclipse.

[Lord Seth]

Aang seems to believe that the battle is going to come down to himself and Ozai (as it did). There's a great deal of difference in blasting a blimp out of the air than there is engaging someone in combat with the intent to kill them.Not in the viewpoint Aang was espousing. Aang made it crystal-clear that the reason he didn't want to kill Ozai was because he didn't want to kill anyone, at all. According to the viewpoint he made clear, he should have cared about the people on the blimp, but he didn't.


In addition, there was a possibility that he might have to actually strike down a disabled-yet-still-alive Ozai. Without the idea that the eclipse would handily solve the problem for him, it's not that illogical that Aang would have started thinking a lot more about killing during the comet as compared to during the eclipse.The eclipse wouldn't have solved the problem for them because it brings up the rather obvious question of what they would've done with Ozai after the eclipse ended. My point is that this was never brought up by anyone. That's what's so ridiculous about it: No one actually brought up the idea that killing Ozai might be necessary, not during the entire show, and not even during Day of Black Sun when it's ridiculous to think it wasn't brought up. That's one of the problems with the dilemma in the first place: Why is it being brought up now?