[3.5] Appearance and You! (Brainstorming)

[Golden-Esque]

One thing that ALWAYS bugged me about virtually every single Roleplaying Game that I have come across is that a stat similar to Charisma usually determines how physically attractive you are. This never made sense to me, because Charisma is classified as a Mental Ability Score; why should that big, sexy brain of yours determine how physically appealing you are?

Then I came across the Book of Erotic Fantasy. Much more interesting to me then the rules on intercourse or the strange pictures that usually had little to no bearing on the actual content was the rules that called for a seventh Ability Score, called Appearance (App), effectively the Seventh Ranger (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SixthRanger) of Ability Scores. This Score told me that I was not the only one who thought that the Charisma into Physical Appeal rule was a tad weird, and I was excited to incorporation it into my campaigns. Except for one small problem.

The Score literally does nothing.

Appearance doesn't really matter, not even in the BoEF itself. While its fine for people who like to Roleplay, many people are going to see it as extra Point-Buy Points to spend on Strength or extra buffer dice to get that 18 to assign to Intelligence or whatever. In sort, you'd be seeing tons of Super Strong or Super Smart adventurers who were all butt-ugly.

So here, I would like to start a brainstorming session to try and come up with ways to make the Appearance score more useful. Here's what it can do according to the book:


Disguise's Key Skill is Appearance.
You can substitute your Appearance Modifier for your Charisma modifier for Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate, and Perform {Sexual Acts} skill checks.


.... And don't YOU want to put an 18 in the stat, haha? Here's a list of ideas we've come up with so far:


Appearance as sort of a "Max Morale Bonus," as in people who have low appearances tend to be really self conscious. (Golden-Esque)


Here's hoping you can help me out, Playgrounders! :smallsmile:

[Lord Vukodlak]

Here is my opinion, the PC's are the heroes of the story, the heroes of the story are almost always attractive with above average appearance, unless there is some story purpose for them not to be.

So simply be default all PC's would be considered attractive for their race unless they wish to be ugly for role-playing reasons, or they have some of those feats that cause physical deformities.

[arguskos]

I always thought you should be able to use two stats when it comes to Gather Information, Diplomacy, and Bluff. I'd houserule that you use Appearance OR Charisma as your key stat, and apply half the bonus from the other stat as a bonus to the check. This means anyone who wants to be diplomatic has to at least look alright, cause if they look like a brain-dead half-frozen manapegonewrong (App 3 or so), then it doesn't matter how nice they are, no one wants to talk to them.

[The Tygre]

If I'm not mistaken, didn't the good ol' BoEF say that several skills now relied on App. instead of Cha.? Personally, I think it should supplement, but that's just me.

[Lysander]

Here is my opinion, the PC's are the heroes of the story, the heroes of the story are almost always attractive with above average appearance, unless there is some story purpose for them not to be.

So simply be default all PC's would be considered attractive for their race unless they wish to be ugly for role-playing reasons, or they have some of those feats that cause physical deformities.

I agree. Charisma is already used as a dump stat by most classes. Why split that into two dump stats?

If you want to have a mechanical system for physical looks why not just make it work like age catogories? How about this:

{table="head"]Player Appearance|Effect
Gorgeous|+2 diplomacy, -2 sense motive
Attractive|+1 diplomacy, -1 sense motive
Average|No adjustment
Ugly|+1 intimidate, -1 diplomacy
Hideous|+2 intimidate, -2 diplomacy
[/table]

I gave good looks a sense motive penalty because I figure if you're used to being the center of attention you have less practice paying attention to others.

[Dienekes]

If memory serves somewhere out there, there's a trait system that has two different traits you can pick up at first level: Beauty and Ugly. I forget what they actually did mechanically but it was stated that everyone looked like an average person of various degrees on the handsome/disgusting meter but if you pick the Beauty trait you're drop dead gorgeous and the Ugly trait you're magnificently ugly looking, and had some ability or boost with them or something.

[The Tygre]

I think that's the way it works in Storytelling systems. I remember that's how it works in Exalted and Scion anyway.

[Geiger Counter]

Actually charisma isn't for apearance as far as I'm aware of
nalfeshnee, the big one, has a higher charisma than most humans.
http://www.verkroost.com/dnd/MM35_PG45.jpg
charisma is also your artistic ability so that's why it's linked to disguise.
Personally I'd alter the disguise skill to distinguish between of someone trying to look like an elf and someone trying to look like a lizard folk, and between someone of the opposite gender and an attractive member of the opposite gender.
Looking like an attractive female to distract a guard shouldn't grant any bonus above simply giving you the opportunity to distract the guard.

[cha0s4a11]

Mechanics-wise perhaps one way to compensate is to change how the modifier for Appearance is determined so that it becomes easy to boost and not really worth taking a dump in. (i.e. Instead of (Stat-10)/2 rounded down, perhaps just (Stat-10) )

Then for various skills:


Disguise: Lesser of (CHA Mod) and (CHA Mod - ((APP Mod of Who/What you are disguising yourself as) - APP Mod))
Diplomacy: Lesser of (CHA Mod) and (APP Mod)
Gather Information: Lesser of (CHA Mod) and (APP Mod)
Intimidate: Greater of (CHA Mod - (1/2 of APP Mod)) and CHA Mod
Perform (Sex): APP mod


Explanation for skills:

Disguise: Both an ugly female barbarian (APP 6-8) and a beauty queen (APP 18-20) could (with enough Charisma) pass themselves as a batty old woman (APP ~= 8 say). The situation would be quite different in terms of passing themselves off as the Mayor's very beautiful daughter (APP 16).

Diplomacy/Gather Info: You can equally be held back by being ugly as hell or being dull as cardboard.

Intimidate: I'm sorry, being ugly as hell should provide a bit of an advantage here. Just how it is.

Perform(Sex): What the stat was meant to do. Perhaps toss in Profession(Prostitute) as well?


As for things to make the APP stat more relevant, the only one that comes to mind is what I would term the Oh Dear God What the **** is That Thing Check For Entering a Populated Area (ODGWt*iTTCFEaPA for short :smallbiggrin:)

Namely if you are below a certain APP value (say 6 for backwater villages, 8 for normal townships, 10 for high class society, etc adjusting for specific circumstances) you have to disguise yourself up to the minimum APP value in order to be allowed in to do business without provoking a major incident that screws over any social plans you or anyone else in your party may have had in said populated area.

[Ashtagon]

I think GURPS has the best system for handling appearance.

D&D's Charisma stat has little to do with appearance, and never did.

The Disguise skill notes a -2 penalty for attempting to pass yourself off as another race (and possibly additional height/weight penalties too). This "other race" line was written with the original half-dozen or so "core PC races" in mind. It is badly in need of updating to reflect the expanded list of playable races.

The most rational way to implement appearance would be to make it a modifier, similar in some respects to the age modifiers. Making it a 7th stat will cause point-buy balance issues.

[Lysander]

Actually charisma isn't for apearance as far as I'm aware of
nalfeshnee, the big one, has a higher charisma than most humans.
http://www.verkroost.com/dnd/MM35_PG45.jpg


Hey, maybe that nalfeshnee looks really hot to other demons. And to nalfeshnee humans look hideous; we're furless tuskless freaks.

[cha0s4a11]

Actually charisma isn't for apearance as far as I'm aware of
nalfeshnee, the big one, has a higher charisma than most humans.
http://www.verkroost.com/dnd/MM35_PG45.jpg.

To be honest, I'd rather go for the smaller one. :smallcool:

[Bonecrusher Doc]

GURPS uses physical appearance... gives you a bonus or penalty to reaction rolls.

I feel like App should be a stat should be addressed in some way in order to separate it from Charisma, but like you, I'm still scratching my head on what it should be used for, besides romantic interactions and beauty contests.

I was thinking that the Disguise skill could also be used to enhance your appearance... say your character is preparing for a date with Prince Charming, she could style her hair, pluck her eyebrows, and apply makeup using Disguise skill. Depending on the success of the check, she could get a bonus to her Appearance score the evening. (Or a penalty... her lipstick is on crooked!)

Jewelry might also give a bonus to appearance. Like this Nosering of Beauty +2:

http://www.lipzing.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/aishwarya-rai-in-jodhaa-akbar.jpg

[Sereg]

Back in first ed, their was an optional rule for having comeliness as a seventh stat. It was modified by Charisma as confident people are better at making themselves seem attractive.

EDIT: Basically comeliness was for first impression, charisma was for the lasting impression that you got after some interaction.

[Bonecrusher Doc]

The question is, should Appearance matter in all Diplomacy scenarios? Do you think Yulia Tymoshenko should get a bonus in negotiating a peace treaty, and Angela Merkel shoud not?

[Lord Vukodlak]

One big problem with any appearance stat is what is attractive to an orc probably isn't attractive to an elf or a human, as consequence an "ugly" orc may make for a passable human.
Standards of beauty aren't consistent between cultures you think it work across species?


I like this idea, rather then creating another possible dump stat for PC's its rolled independently
6+3d4 or maybe just 6+2d6

Then you can just keep the stat to roll playing fluff, and all the PC's stand a good chance of being average to good looking.

You know that doesn't sound like a bad stat rolling method,
6+2d6

[Debihuman]

The 2nd edition book, Unearthed Arcana intoduced a stat called "Comeliness." In 3.5, you don't roll for how attractive your character is; you simply choose how your PC looks.

The Book of Erotic Fantasy updated Comeliness to Appearance (App), but I think it failed to account that beauty is in the eye of the beholder and it gives it from a strictly human perspective. It doesn't really take into account other races and other species from their perspective. It also doesn't really add much other than as a comparison between what is attractive and what isn't. I found that section to be mind-numbingly dull and rather unecessary. I don't need a book to tell me that a rotting, decompozing zombie is grossly unattractive.

The only real change it made was that Disguise became Appearance-based rather than Charisma-based. I guess they had to find a use for it other than just add it for prestige classes. Still, that felt a tad unnecessary.

Appendix I listed all the App score for creatures in the Monster Manual. It seemed kinda silly since the monsters all have pictures (even if you only have the online SRD, the pictures of every monster are there). I didn't particularly like that the BoEF lists lycanthropes as having APP scores averaging their human and animal components. One can be a beautiful woman and still be a an ugly wererat or vice versa even.

Debby

[Bonecrusher Doc]

I like this idea, rather then creating another possible dump stat for PC's its rolled independently
6+3d4 or maybe just 6+2d6


Kind of like height and weight. That makes good sense, it would be rolled at the same time.

I would think that Appearance/Comeliness would only apply fully to the same subspecies (race), and maybe apply half as much with other humanoids. Not at all with non-humanoids, except for maybe a dragon that shape-changes into a human or something like that.

[Geiger Counter]

One big problem with any appearance stat is what is attractive to an orc probably isn't attractive to an elf or a human, as consequence an "ugly" orc may make for a passable human.
Standards of beauty aren't consistent between cultures you think it work across species?

Actually this is mostly untrue, beauty is for the most part objective and measurable. Any living thing whose body plan is closer to the golden ratio will be more attractive than one whose isn't.

[Ashtagon]

Actually this is mostly untrue, beauty is for the most part objective and measurable. Any living thing whose body plan is closer to the golden ratio will be more attractive than one whose isn't.

This is certainly true for humans. We have no evidence either way for non-human psychology and perceptions of attractiveness. And even if it were generally true, perhaps the specific ratio of what is considered ideal varies between species. It is certainly known to vary between human cultures.

For similar reasons, Titius–Bode law isn't necessarily universal either - we simply have a very limited perspective.

[Golden-Esque]

For someone who mentioned it, the BoEF does mention a penalty on Appearance-Based checks if you are a different race then the other person's race (save for Fey, Elves, and Feykissed; apparently everyone thinks they are hot stuff).

I really like the ideas popping up in this thread; a lot of people seem to agree that Appearance is, overall, useless as anything more then a Roleplaying Stat. I also liked Lord Vukodlak's idea of separately rolling for Appearance.

[Lysander]

What if appearance instead of being a stat was a skill? That way charisma could modify it up or down depending how well you carry yourself. Adding ranks would be explained as getting in better shape, learning how to dress snappier, or becoming more attractive as you mature or more distinguished as you age. There could be a synergy bonus with the disguise skill for make-up/fashion sense.

It could work like an automatic use of the diplomacy skill when anyone sees you for the first time, adjusting their attitude up, down, or not at all depending on your roll and the DC of the check. Then you could use the diplomacy skill to either undo the damage, or make them like you even more.

The nice thing about appearance would be that it works even if you're unaware someone is looking at you. So a bunch of bandits might be about ambush, but decide at the last second that they don't want to hurt you. The downside compared to charisma is that appearance isn't useful for negotiations, and it only takes effect the first time someone sees you. You're better off having max ranks in both, but a player could conceivable choose to only focus on one of them. In fact it might be a good idea for a party to have one pretty face for first impressions, and another person as a skilled speaker for extended discussions.

[Lord Vukodlak]

So a character with a high intelligence could be more beautiful because they have more skill points to spend? Nerds of the world rejoice.

[Lysander]

So a character with a high intelligence could be more beautiful because they have more skill points to spend? Nerds of the world rejoice.

Hey, look at Einstein. The guy was a pimp. And people tend to be attracted to those with a high number of skill points: doctors, pilots, musicians, etc.

Int also determines the amount of points you have for other physical skills. Yes, being smart can make you better at jumping.

An unpopular "nerd" might either not actually be smart, may just have a really low charisma, or might have put all their points into more useful skills.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Hey, look at Einstein. The guy was a pimp. And people tend to be attracted to those with a high number of skill points: doctors, pilots, musicians, etc.

Int also determines the amount of points you have for other physical skills. Yes, being smart can make you better at jumping.

An unpopular "nerd" might either not actually be smart, may just have a really low charisma, or might have put all their points into more useful skills.

Yes but those physical skills are still skills you train them.

[Ashtagon]

If it is a skill, then logically, an aged 90-year old former supermodel will be sexier than a fresh-faced 20-year old supermodel. :smallconfused:

Whatever turns you on I guess :smallamused:

[AceofDeath]

If it is a skill, then logically, an aged 90-year old former supermodel will be sexier than a fresh-faced 20-year old supermodel. :smallconfused:

Whatever turns you on I guess :smallamused:


Just like the 90 year old also will be better at spot and listen:smallwink:
Appearance seems to do to little for a character Game system wise to make it a part of the system, just roleplay it would be my most logical answer....

[Lysander]

If it is a skill, then logically, an aged 90-year old former supermodel will be sexier than a fresh-faced 20-year old supermodel. :smallconfused:

Whatever turns you on I guess :smallamused:

Appearance doesn't have to mean sexiness. It just refers to how appealing you look. An old woman with high appearance might instead be a sweet little old lady people instinctively offer to help across the street.

There could also be a penalty when trying to seduce someone in lower age categories.

[EpicEvokerElf]

The 90-year-old will be WAY better at Spot/Listen, come to think of it, and not just for the skill points. Age categories boost your mental stats, so his Wis will make him better at that too. And then there's the fact that aging boosts your Charisma...

[Ashtagon]

Appearance doesn't have to mean sexiness. It just refers to how appealing you look. An old woman with high appearance might instead be a sweet little old lady people instinctively offer to help across the street.

This is the definition of Charisma.

[Lord Vukodlak]

This is the definition of Charisma.

I think he means the difference between, the typical look of the nice old lady or the wicked witch old lady.

[Rainbownaga]

Speaking of skill checks, I don't understand why appearance would help you with disguise checks. Bluff and diplomacy makes sense, but if I noticed one of my mooks had been mysteriously replaced with a supermodel (of either gender) I'd probably be more suspicious.

[Ashtagon]

If we are going to have Apperance/Comeliness...

If you are aiming for a specific person's appearance and you are better-looking or uglier than the intended subject, there is a penalty equal to the difference in modifiers. This penalty also applies if you are aiming for a "type" that has a particular level of attractiveness ("disguise me as a handsome knight").

In addition, if you are aiming to disguise yourself as a specific person who is above-average in the looks department, there is a penalty on your Disguise check equal to their attractiveness bonus.

There is no special penalty associated with making yourself appear as a specific ugly person.

There should also be a racial penalty on Disguise checks beyond the flat -2 for race and height/weight modifiers.

[Rainbownaga]

Personally I'd rule that the player gets to decide what their character looks like (within reason, with leeway based on their charisma score). Just as a 90lb woman can have a 18 strength and a man twice that size can have a strength of 8, there's no reason someone can't say that they're "incredibly hot" but still manage to just be annoying all the NPC's she talks to (because of low cha).

In short I agree that appearance is unnecessary and can actually make things less fun.