Too much radiant damage!

[Zellic Solis]

Okay. I have a slight problem. I'm running an Ebberon 4e game with 6 players. Their characters were created back when we had a different GM. The characters are in Karrath trying to take down one a rogue necromancer and his uber McGuffin of mass undead control. There's a problem though. Every single one of them almost entirely by happenstance has a source of radiant damage.

Needless to say, undead encounters get vaporized. So I've been trying to supplement the encounters with constructs, humanoid mercenaries, outsiders... and the players are catching on. They're starting to notice that just about every fight has everything except undead. All are level 7.

One is a dragonborn paladin with the radiant breath feat.
One is a cleric of the silver flame who built the cleric to counter undead at level 1.
One is an invoker of the silver flame.
One is a warlock with star pact.
One is a fighter with a luminous longsword that can turn all his damage into radiant damage. Incidently, he got that weapon at level 2 after much awesome RP and a bitching fight. (seriously. He smack talked a corrupt captain of the guard into a duel and won. He rolled 4 crits, turn after turn, in 1-1 combat. Most amazing thing I've ever seen.)
The last is a rogue who has a circlet of blasting.

They know the big bad is a vampire of the emerald claw (established at the start) and I just know that at the rate they're going he's just going to go poof. So, suggestions on how I can challenge them when they're perfectly geared for taking out the monster type that is universally vulnerable to that damage type! Incidenly, throwing non undead encounters against them things go much closer to normal. They're not overpowered just... shiny!

[Yukitsu]

Have them burst into his throne room, and see a gentleman vampire applaud them, monologue blah blah blah, and let the party nuke him. After they do so, have 50 more identical ones walk into the room. One is real, the rest are thralls disguised as him, level 1 thralls or vampires of various sorts. They should go down like chumps, but if you keep the real one out of their fire until they start to run short, he can start darting in and out giving them hits. Hope they use their big dailies and per encounter powers.

[Telok]

Give your important undead NPCs items with Resist 5/10 Radiant. They aren't too uncommon and intelligent undead would want to cover their vunlerabilities.

Even giving a Resist 15 or 20 to your BBEG wouldn't be out of line. He's supposed to have the best gear anyways.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Vampires tend to have human servants, mind controlled pawns, right? Okay, there's your non-undead mooks. Whatever encounters you'd like to set up, under the control of said Vamp.

[tcrudisi]

They know the big bad is a vampire of the emerald claw (established at the start) and I just know that at the rate they're going he's just going to go poof. So, suggestions on how I can challenge them when they're perfectly geared for taking out the monster type that is universally vulnerable to that damage type! Incidenly, throwing non undead encounters against them things go much closer to normal. They're not overpowered just... shiny!

I bolded the first line for emphasis. So the players are level 7 and have known since level 1 that the BBEG was a vampire lord? No offense, but they just did the smart thing: they went after items that would be useful. (Okay, Radiant weapons are probably the most powerful anyway... but I digress). Think of it this way: if you've known for 6+ levels who the BBEG was, wouldn't you also pick up items to specifically take him down? I know I would.

Having said that, they've played intelligently. If it's really become an issue, just tell them something like, "Guys... I can't throw undead at you every time because you just slaughter it. I want the game to be challenging as there's not much fun to be had when you slaughter everything in round 1. However, I'm not going to change all the encounters -- you've played it intelligently and I don't want to punish you for that. Is that okay?" Because, who knows, they may like completely pwning every encounter in round 1. Personally, I would get bored of it rather quickly.

I disagree with the "items to give the undead radiant resistance. Then your players kill the undead (sure they have one or two harder combats), but then they have a bunch of magic items which they can start breaking the economy with.

[Sophismata]

Create unbalanced fights in favour of the undead. That is, more undead, higher level undead, etc. The players have an advantage normally, and instead of denying them that, you'd be making it more pronounced when you send them up against much larger threats. The fact that they've geared up to fight undead is a smart, reactionary move on their part and you don't want to nullify the advantages they've earned.

...but you can make those advantages mean the difference between victory and defeat. Ideally, the players feel justified in their choices, the battles remain challenging and you haven't penalised them for smart moves.

[Teddy]

Well, the players are preparing themselves for encounters they expect with the BBEG's minions based on the information they've found, so why shouldn't the BBEG do the same. Witnesses, survivors and crystal balls all provide important information, and if you let some stupid henchman slip some information about how the BBEG learns their tactics, that will hopefully make the players develope new strategies and protect themselves from information leaks in the future...

[boomwolf]

I agree on simply making the undead more powerful. that way the players will have the "good thing we got all that radiant stuff or we really had trouble here" feel, while still keeping it challenging.

[lord_khaine]

I agree, reward the players for being smart, and just send more and stronger undeads after them.

Your players will be challenged, and im also sure they will love to be able to defeat undeads far above their level because of carefull planning.

[ericgrau]

Mix up the encounters. If they annihilate the undead, good for them. Don't swing the nerf bat nor even send stronger undead unless the PCs' abilities help against undead without hurting them against other creatures. As for the BBEG, don't change his type, simply make him "bigger and badder". If that means the PCs are the best heroes around to fight an otherwise extra horrible foe then, hey, all the better for the plot. If it's supposed to be an undead heavy campaign or when statting out the vampire's minions then, okay, boost the undead.

Just for lols after this is over I'd give them a plot hook somewhere with no undead whatsoever, like the positive energy plane. Then say "Or this other guy comes to you and asks for help with this other thing." But I wouldn't seriously negate the party's abilities.

[AmberVael]

I'm not sure this would be a solution, but I can say you could turn this into a plot point. The big bad has probably heard about their powers by now, right? He's probably smart enough to realize this is a very bad thing for him, so he wants to figure out a way to negate it (I mean, only makes sense). So he locates some method/artifact/thing/blah and starts after it.

Then the PCs hear he's going after it. Now, theoretically, they could still beat him if he has it, obviously. It is only going to protect against radiant damage, after all. On the other hand, that's what they do best, so they might want to try and beat him to it.

So I dunno, just an idea that might or might not prove interesting.

[Beorn080]

You could make him a lich vampire. Not sure if that's RAW, but that could prove to be an interesting diversion, since now their abilities are worthless until they can track down the Phylactory. Also, AMF field. Seems like most of their powers are magical in nature, and in an AMF field, he'll still be a vampire.

As for undead encounters, mix it up a bit. Perhaps ghosts possessing commoners, a village of Good intelligent undead, ghosts possessing intelligent good undead, charmed villagers providing meat shields for the undead, anything that would force them to hold back.

[Zellic Solis]

Here's the problem. We've been playing twice a week for two months now (yeah, we're that bad) and I've tried the bigger and badder route. It was a TPK. The reason is that when they hit, they obliterate. If they can't hit then they get splattered. Hordes aren't much of a threat with an invoker and cleric splash splatting them. And magic items have been a problem in past campaigns. I have two players who have no problem rules lawyering and muchkining.

any other thoughts? I'm almost thinking of moving the second half of the dungeon to a pocket dungeon in Mabar where I can say "HA HA! the universe gives all the badguys radiant resistance! Let's see you hide THAT in your pants till you face a radiant dealing boss."

(seriously, John once carried around 6 rings of major resistance in 3.5 and would swap them around before every battle if he could and exploited a cleric and wisard NPC for scrolls. The GM even gave him one to resist force damage... Yeah...)

[Tiki Snakes]

Lets flip this around, a little. Things were set to go down a certain route, with the Vampire BBEG confident enough in his chances to the very end to allow them to actually get to him, and stop him.

But these guys, they have massacred his forces whenever he sent them against them. He's tried using his non-undead forces, but he's only got so many of those after all, and things have got desperate.

I think that what we're looking at here, is a moment where the players actions have justified real changes. The world can't just sit back, ignore their contributions and rebalance the encounters a bit. Not really.

The BBEG Vampire should at this point be really, really desperate. Perhaps it's time he threw away his current plans and tried to escape (changing the location of the game or merely removing him from the picture) or saught out some dangerous allies (The kind that if he had a choice he wouldn't go near, but they have forced his hand.)

Essentially, I think it would be a good idea to show the PC's that they have been SO successful in dealing with the undead element, that they have literally almost defeated the Vampire before they even got there. Depending on the Vampire and what you'd be interested in, there are options.

You could have him run and they chase him, forcing the PC's into a different enviroment, either to provide new plot hooks, or more varied problems (for example extra factions to be wary of and contend with).
If they don't chase him, the pc's have broken his plans, but created an unexpected power vacuum. A new BBEG arrises, more subtley perhaps, to fill the void. (For example, they learn that they have forced the Vamp to abandon his plans and leave the area...but confusingly, attacks have continued reguardless)

The other option (which could be combined with the above, really) is that he would start making some desperate bargains and going to some really desperate lengths. Perhaps he appeals directly to Orcus himself, seeking the Demon Lord's aid. Perhaps a powerful, dangerous and/or even more evil organisation from a neighboring district is bargained with into aiding him in being rid of the PC's, (in exchange for basically inevitably taking the region the Vamp is interested in, or at the cost of what they will do now they know of him and the region, with a foothold too.) Good options would be Yuan-ti cults, Illithid or Drow, or even a literal Faustian pact bringing infernal cults into situation.

In most of the above, (except perhaps such situations where the Vamp is completely removed from the picture) there should continue to be an Undead presence to the campaign, but it should be either bolstered with other types (either making encounters a direct mix or via the whole several competing factions + enviromental issues route).

[The Glyphstone]

(seriously, John once carried around 6 rings of major resistance in 3.5 and would swap them around before every battle if he could and exploited a cleric and wisard NPC for scrolls. The GM even gave him one to resist force damage... Yeah...)


This is munckinry? The GM giving up a Force Resistance ring is odd, but that still totals up to 240,000+ gold, almost 1/3 of a 20th level character's allotment, and he can only use 1/6 of that at a time (well, 1/3 with two rings).

[Zellic Solis]

Actually the BBEG is an abomination from the khyber who was instrumental to starting and maintaining the Last War and is trying to keep the slaughter going; if not with international war then with civil war. Levels 1-4 were the party members suspending a civil war in Thrane when they uncovered that elements in the silver flame not only assisted in the spread of lycanthropy before the silver purge but actually created the highly virulent and contageous strain for the purpose of instituting a Thrane theocracy... a plot that the Last War actually realized. The PC's (through one heck of a fun skill challenge) convinced the queen and the keeper of the flame to maintain the secret a little longer. So that's where the last arc ended. And it started with a misdelivered letter to one of the PC's.

Now they've found out that another of the letters was sent to an ex-general in Thrane who was involved with the emerald claw before his retirement. The letter warns of concerns of vampiric infiltrations in the nobility and offers a ritual that would not only expose the vampire but would also link, blood to blood, every vampire related to the target... including Vol... including king Kaius. When the party comes calling the general insists that the sender was just a Karnathi scholar back when the war began and has given them a chance to help the people of karnath. That night the general was assassinated and the ritual stolen by emerald claw agents and they've persued the agents to his lair. Really I want the PC's to get their hand on the ritual. I just don't want it to be easy. Once they kill the vampire they can finish the ritual and learn the secret. Then they get to deal with the Karnathi authorities persuing them in suspiction of murdering the general. So the vampire isn't the BBEG. He's the BEG wondering why he's got the thranite anti-undead smackdown squad on his butt. Of course he thinks its because the ritual is so important.

[Zellic Solis]

This is munckinry? The GM giving up a Force Resistance ring is odd, but that still totals up to 240,000+ gold, almost 1/3 of a 20th level character's allotment, and he can only use 1/6 of that at a time (well, 1/3 with two rings).

Yeah, but at lvl 12?

[Tiki Snakes]

Just a note Re: The items-of-resistance idea and the Rampant Munchkinery Wealth issue related to it;

As this is 4e, the Undead could simply have been created using a different type of ritual to normal, (or a supplementary ritual) to remove their vulnerability to Radiant or even to give them resistance.

(In generic setting, I'd suggest this translates to using rituals designed by Vecna, rather than Orcus. As a God in 4e Generic, Vecna is just as capable of Radiant smackdown as anyone else. It figures he'd have some plan or method of shoring up his anti-deity regiments.)

[Aron Times]

Do the players know that 4e vampire lords don't die when exposed to sunlight? 4e vampire lords are a lot closer to traditional vampire stories like Dracula, in that they are only slightly weakened by sunlight. In this case, they don't regenerate when exposed to sunlight. That's it.

With a combination of mundane and magical disguises, a vampire lord can live a relatively normal life among mortals. He still has to feed, but as long as he doesn't kill all of his vessels, he should be able to maintain the Masquerade. The vampire can even change the coffin he is bound to by sleeping in a new one three times, if I recall correctly. This gives them a lot of mobility.

Also, as long as he has a sustainable supply of blood, he can afford to be patient. He is, after all, immortal. If you don't want him killed right now, have him come back more powerful later in the campaign.

[Dragonmuncher]

Hm. I guess it depends on how often the BBEG comes into contact with the players. But let's take a look at everyone's favorite undead Evil Overlord- Xykon!

-Is a massively powerful undead
-has a second-in-command that is NOT undead, who has abilities that leave him dangerous on his own or allow him to boost Xykon.
-Through the second in command, has access to an army of mooks.



So... how about this. Your evil overlord has his vampire spawn- they're fast, deadly and intelligent. But he only has so many of them, and your group is kitted out to fight specifically undead. So I'd say he uses his undead creations as lieutenants- especially in places where he doesn't expect the party to be. So, while an assassination team might be specifically all non-undead, or radiant resistant undead, a normal team might be a squad of orcs (or whatever), under the command of a vampire. The vampire might have some sort of lesser undead attendant, but the mooks are live.


Basically, the undead become more like controllers and glass cannons. The mooks and second-in-command protect their undead overlords. If the players can reach the undead squad leaders, nice! But they have to outfight/outfight/outmaneuver the orc mooks and the golem bodyguard.



Extra points if the glass cannon undead are shown to be freaking terrifying to those not of the group. So, a squad of vampires is slaughtering a town, but then the Big Damn Heroes come in and destroy everything.

The party members are rewarded by striking when the undead don't expect them. But if the undead expect them, and have prep time, then they come prepared.

[lord_khaine]

As a alternative you could let the vampire design a new type of minion, with a aura that grants radiance resistance.

That would then introduce a new element of tactics, where the team will then have to kill the special minion, while the rest of the undeads will try and protect it.

[Asbestos]

Well, you're faced with the party being tweaked to specifically destroy what is supposed to be the prime enemy in the campaign. It'd be as if the party was supposed to be heading down an army of trolls and, by happenstance, everyone does fire or acid damage.

But, that doesn't mean that you have to give up on the enemy of choice, it just means they (as in you, the DM) need to get more creative.

First off, we need to find undead that are naturally not-vulnerable to radiant damage. (I'm using the Monster Builder to find these things, real nice DM tool) I'm going to go through level 6 to level 10. I'm ignoring uninteresting minions and the pretty setting specific stuff.

Level 6
Forsaken Shell (damn mean things, easy enough to level up)
Hanged One (minion that can auto-immobilize)
Offalian (way gross)
Pale Reaver Creeper (minion that can drain healing surges from immobilized PCs)
Poltergeist (telekinetic ghost)
Runeflame Skeleton (has stacking damage dealing Aura)

Level 7
Bloodrot (undead ooze)
Bone Worm (mean if you can get CA or ongoing necrotic damage on someone)
Moon Wraith (can be quite mean under a night sky)
Shadowskull (flying artillery piece)
Tomb Mote Swarms (stacking damage Aura and attacks deal ongoing necrotic damage and those already taking ongoing necro damage bump from 5 to 10 ongoing damage)

Level 8
Corpse Vampire (Radiant damage only turns off the passive Regen, but the critter can still regain HP with Blood Drain)
Direguard Deathbringer (a rather potent Elite)
Griefmote Cloud (a flying undead swarm, though there appears to be an error in this in the monster builder, you may have to check Dragon 375 for the stat block)
Headless Corpse (a solo monster)
Mummy Guardian (radiant shuts down its rather potent regen)
Osteopede (funny name, debuffing aura)
Terraghul (some sort of weird undead demon)
Trap Haunt (ghost, can't travel too far from where it was created though)
Witherling Horned Terror (big undead brute)

Level 9
Blood Amniote (undead ooze)
Paralyth (psychic undead)

Level 10
Charnel Zombie (minion, but gets a free basic attack when it dies)


The next steps are pretty much what others have suggested: Allies that aren't vulnerable to radiant, this can be anything from constructs to demons to hired chumps.

[DragonBaneDM]

Give him a magic item that grants radiant resistance. There's only a couple, but they definately exist.

Thus why the Magic Threshold in the DMG exists. :smallbiggrin:

EDIT:

Is it King Kaius?

[Zellic Solis]

Well it's done. I made the entire second half of the dungeon a manifest zone of Mabar. Basically gave everything radiant resistance ten.

It went over fairly nicely, actually. Wasn't too out there or overpowering. Gave me an excuse to spookify the place and Varis gave them a decent challenge. (I have to 'decrit' a few rolls but meh.) They got the ritual and the final components and (because my party never stops to do things like research) they went right off making arcana checks. So now they have a vampiric geneology of the blood of Vol.

It's so much fun to put the knowledge of "The ruler is a vampire" and ask them "so what do you plan on doing with it?" Needless to say, the order of the emerald claw is going to be making their return to Korth much stickier.

[ericgrau]

Yeah, but at lvl 12?

That's called a monty haul DM. The problem isn't the PC swapping rings, the problem is having 240,000 gp worth of loot at level 12. If he's smart he'll sell all 6 rings and get an impressive array of equipment that's far more useful.