(SOD spoiler) what could Redcloak have done?

[Kurald Galain]

About halfway through the book Start of Darkness, Redcloak finds himself trapped in an underground cave with no exits. He's about level 10 at the time, since he can't cast Heal yet. His solution to this puzzle is to turn Xykon into a lich, and we all know how well that turned out for Reddy.

So, is there something else he could have done to get out of there, given the many level 1 through 5 spells on the cleric's list? Was he really trapped or just so focused on his goal that he overlooked other options?

[Ancalagon]

*Takes a deep breath*, *waits a second*, *screams "Use STONE SHAPE, you moron!" in Redcloaks ear*.

He could have carved comfortable stairs into the stone with it!

On the other hand we have to assume that the cave was magic-proofed. Given that he had basically months or years even searing light could have done the trick over a long time (he has not much else to do, so...).

[Tyrmatt]

In terms of actual escape, the lichification was the only real option. If Redcloak had spent all day blasting spells to get through the rock, then yes possibly it could have gotten them out. Only to come face to face with an epic level Lirian and Xykon still spell-less and weak. RC gets nuked and turned into eco-friendly fertiliser.
Short of rolling a nat 20 on his daily Destruction mantle power, they had virtually no hope of getting out without bringing in the badass.

[Zxo]

Redcloak was pretty happy to present the lichification idea to Xykon, he had planned it earlier and maybe was not sure if Xykon would agree, Lirian's dungeon gave him a situation in which Xykon had no choice but to agree. It's not like Redcloak turned Xykon into a lich because that was the only way out of the dungeon and otherwise he would have never done it. He would have done it anyway, being trapped just determined the timing of it.

[factotum]

*Takes a deep breath*, *waits a second*, *screams "Use STONE SHAPE, you moron!" in Redcloaks ear*.


Maybe he didn't have any soft clay available to USE Stone Shape? (It does have a required material component, you know).

[Ancalagon]

Maybe he didn't have any soft clay available to USE Stone Shape? (It does have a required material component, you know).

Material components don't seem to get used a lot in OotS, you know... don't pretend he had the materials/tools to build a phylactery or to do the extensive operations was saw him doing in SoD, you know.

edit: and the spell description says:

Arcane Material Component

Soft clay, which must be worked into roughly the desired shape of the stone object and then touched to the stone while the verbal component is uttered.

[Deca]

*Takes a deep breath*, *waits a second*, *screams "Use STONE SHAPE, you moron!" in Redcloaks ear*.



Maybe he didn't have it prepared that day?

[Ancalagon]

Maybe he didn't have it prepared that day?

Ughh? You are aware they spent months preparing Xykon to be a lich? It's not that "time" was a real issue...

[PirateMonk]

On the other hand we have to assume that the cave was magic-proofed.

If it was magic-proofed, how did Xykon blast his way out? Also, they thought that no one in there could use magic, so why would they bother?

[Zevox]

Two castings of Plane Shift. One to get to any other plane, one to return the Prime.

Otherwise, I'm sure blasting out with flame strikes, combined with digging (aided by spells such as spiritual weapon, summoning spells, bull's strength, and so on) would have worked eventually. Perhaps faster than the four months or so that they took Lichifying Xykon.

Zevox

[Nimrod's Son]

But as has already been pointed out, surely much of the point was to restore Xykon's power? Escaping by other means doesn't count for much if they're just going to get trounced by Lirian again the minute they emerge into the open.

[Ancalagon]

If it was magic-proofed...

I don't say it was. But Stone Shape is such an obvious solution that there HAD to be some way to prevent it.

Your other question is easily answered: A) Magic tries to change the substance and B) Magic causes raw force to rip the stone apart. A) could be prevented but B) might be possible.

Again, I'm not saying it has happened that way... it just had to. Somehow. As Stone Shape really, really is the totally obvious solution here and apparently (Redcloak is that smart to try it) it did not really work.

edit: as for the "Lirian would be there" argument... we do not know where the prison was. As she totally had no idea after Xykon "blasted himself out" it's likely it wasn't near.

[King of Nowhere]

edit: as for the "Lirian would be there" argument... we do not know where the prison was. As she totally had no idea after Xykon "blasted himself out" it's likely it wasn't near.

That's a good point. But since they were trapped in stone, they had no way of knowing it.
Also, Lirian didn't knew the moment of the explosion, but that don't mean that she wouldn't have known in a few hours/days because she or some of her surviving allies passed there and noticed a big hole in the ground.
And since Redcloak was trapped in enemy territory without teleporting means, they would have been tracked (scry) and destroied.


Two castings of Plane Shift. One to get to any other plane, one to return the Prime.
Plane shift requires a specific metal rod as a focus. They said they could use the fungi to get the substances required for lichification, but I don't think they could dig metal ores.

[Sir_Elderberry]

I like the idea that Redcloak knew he had other options and just used it as an opportunity to get Xykon to agree to lichdom, because it increases the irony.

[Kish]

Again, I'm not saying it has happened that way... it just had to. Somehow. As Stone Shape really, really is the totally obvious solution here and apparently (Redcloak is that smart to try it) it did not really work.
Redcloak wanted to turn Xykon into a lich. His brother was the one who wanted to look for an alternative, and he let Redcloak talk him out of it.

I doubt very much the cave was particularly defended against magic by any means; anyone imprisoned there was already supposed to be unable to use magic.

[Zevox]

Plane shift requires a specific metal rod as a focus. They said they could use the fungi to get the substances required for lichification, but I don't think they could dig metal ores.
Considering Redcloak's holy symbol wasn't confiscated from him, I doubt any other spell foci he was carrying were either. And while we of course cannot be completely sure if he had it then, as we have no evidence one way or the other, he apparently started carrying the necessary focus at some point, since he tried Plane Shift on the High Priest of Azure of City. So it remains a possibility.

Zevox

[Conuly]

I don't say it was. But Stone Shape is such an obvious solution that there HAD to be some way to prevent it.

That's what they thought about setting the trees on fire too. :smallwink:

[denthor]

I can not take a deep breath but summon Earth elemental?

Maybe. But as Tish pointed out Red Cloak was thinking of way to prolong Xyclon's life force for the ages and it was easier to convince him to go undead and get smarter, gain more power than to just leaving the Green Mile

[Nimrod's Son]

edit: as for the "Lirian would be there" argument... we do not know where the prison was. As she totally had no idea after Xykon "blasted himself out" it's likely it wasn't near.
Would YOU be willing to risk that with a feeble old man rather than an epic-level lich on your side?

[Ancalagon]

Redcloak wanted to turn Xykon into a lich. His brother was the one who wanted to look for an alternative, and he let Redcloak talk him out of it.

I doubt very much the cave was particularly defended against magic by any means; anyone imprisoned there was already supposed to be unable to use magic.

I know. It's quite obvious Redcloak wanted to keep Xykon (for whatever reason) - and I also think he did it "because he could".

But this wasn't what the thread-starter asked. ;)

[megabyter5]

We're completely ignoring the real question. There's one circumstance that could in fact have prevented Xykon's lichification entirely, as well as left RC looking for another arcane caster (such as an awakened chipmunk) for The Plan. What if, when Redcloak and Xykon first met, the lizardfolk leader who also tried to get Xykon on his side really WAS named Scaly?

[Ancalagon]

We're completely ignoring the real question. There's one circumstance that could in fact have prevented Xykon's lichification entirely, as well as left RC looking for another arcane caster (such as an awakened chipmunk) for The Plan. What if, when Redcloak and Xykon first met, the lizardfolk leader who also tried to get Xykon on his side really WAS named Scaly?

I'd say... if you really want to discuss that question (not that it has much point to ponder what would have happened if Redcloak and Xykon never had teamed up) open a new thread instead of derailing this one...

[Dark Matter]

RC thought that making Xykon into a Litch would be a good thing. RC has multiple problems...

1) Xykon is an idiot who accidentally kills goblins on a regular basis (making him a Litch will make him smarter).
2) Xykon is dying of old age.
3) Xykon is powerless.
4) Xykon and RC are trapped.
5) The gate is guarded by an EPIC level Druid.
6) The plan requires a high level Arcane caster.

RC effectively has two ways forward.
1) Make Xykon into a Litch.
2) Let Xykon die, free himself and the others, and then find an epic level Wizard. Said Wizard needs to be able to defeat an Epic level Druid, work with goblins, and they want someone who can be controlled by the goblins.

Considering the highest level goblin Arcane caster was... what? Maybe 1st level? The second way forward will be pretty hard. RC didn't realize he'd be exchanging Xykon the somewhat bumbling but powerful idiot for Xykon the uncontrollable monster.

[Ancalagon]

RC thought that making Xykon into a Litch would be a good thing. RC has multiple problems... [...]

All that might be correct if it was not for one little problem:

It was Redcloak's single most bad idea he ever had and it did not work out at all. It's also Redcloak's biggest crime so far and he - personally! - has to carry the responsibility for all the damage and misery Xykon caused since then.

You could argue he did not fully understand what he was doing (he did not) but to make it worse Right-Eye pointed it out, in a very direct way.
He said it was a bad idea and we soon learned: he was even more correct with this estimation than he could ever have feared.

For all the reasons that did speak FOR the lichification of Xykon, Redcloak did not even ponder once those that spoke AGAINST it.

[Nimrod's Son]

1) Xykon is an idiot who accidentally kills goblins on a regular basis (making him a Litch will make him smarter).
...Whereas his first act as a lich is to kill every unnamed goblin in the room. Deliberately.

How well THAT one worked out. :smallamused:

[Ancalagon]

...Whereas his first act as a lich is to kill every
unnamed goblin in the room. Deliberately.

And to make it even better (I mean... worse): it were not just some random mooks but goblins Xykon hang out with for the last four months!

[Dark Matter]

Yeah, well... the grass only *looks* greener from the other side.

Rather than an unintelligent monster they now have an intelligent monster, this isn't a good thing.

Rather than have someone who takes pleasure in the little things, they now have something who CAN NOT take pleasure in anything other than murder.

Rather than have someone who they can control, they have someone who controls them, and who makes it very clear he cares nothing for or about them.

It's easy retrospectively to say that turning Xykon into a Litch was a bad idea, but mostly that depends on knowing how things turned out. RC didn't know that when he cut out Xykon's heart he was also removing his ability to taste or feel anything. Knowing what he knew at the time, turning Xykon into a Litch looked like the correct move.

Personally I put the whole thing down to the self destructiveness of evil. I'd put Gobbotopia's various misdeeds to the same thing. Because of the events of SoD, RC thinks that Good is just another word for evil, and that his people will/could be better off with evil. In reality Right-eye's vision was the correct way forward. Abandon the Plan, take the Snarl (and evil) off the table, and you'll stop pinging the forces of good's "evil radar".

[Ancalagon]

It's easy retrospectively to say that turning Xykon into a Litch was a bad idea, but mostly that depends on knowing how things turned out.

My point is that they could have known it was a bad idea - and that they did. Right-Eye said it wasn't a good solution. He plainly, openly stated it - before the deed was done.

[Dark Matter]

My point is that they could have known it was a bad idea - and that they did. Right-Eye said it wasn't a good solution. He plainly, openly stated it - before the deed was done.Right-Eye wasn't arguing against Litchdom because they'd be making a monster. Right-Eye was arguing against not only Xykon, but the plan in general and their god specifically.

Right-Eye is effectively the voice of the future or the ST or something. His role in the narrative is to be overruled. Yes, he was right, and yes, he said it before... but on paper if you look at what RC knew, the case for Litchdom is pretty solid.

And there's another aspect to this... RC *could* in theory make himself into a Litch. The interesting question is whether that would result in another monster.

[Ancalagon]

Pssst, general hint for discussions of all sorts: constantly mispelling the thing you talk about does not indicate you spent a lot of time pondering the subject in question and the related questions and positions - which is a factor "< 1" by which all your statements and positions get multiplied.

[KyrtFurey]

About halfway through the book Start of Darkness, Redcloak finds himself trapped in an underground cave with no exits. He's about level 10 at the time, since he can't cast Heal yet. His solution to this puzzle is to turn Xykon into a lich, and we all know how well that turned out for Reddy.

So, is there something else he could have done to get out of there, given the many level 1 through 5 spells on the cleric's list? Was he really trapped or just so focused on his goal that he overlooked other options?

They could have used their hands and battered the rock into submission.

Maybe I'm misrememebring, but there is a reason RC didn't cast Heal. Or Shape Stone. Or any other spell.

It wasn't anything to do with level. It was because they couldn't use magic. Turning Xykon into a Lich bypassed the mechanism Lirian used to block their magic...it didn't work on undead.

EJL

[Optimystik]

Plane shift requires a specific metal rod as a focus. They said they could use the fungi to get the substances required for lichification, but I don't think they could dig metal ores.

He didn't seem to have the rod here. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html)

The Giant plays fast and loose with components. The only one he seems to adhere to is the Holy Symbol as a DF, and then only for clerics.. We don't see V tossing ruby dust in the air before Forcecage either.

Finally, of course Redcloak had other options to get out of there. His stubborn refusal to try and find them just highlights the fact that unleashing Xykon the Lich on the entire world was his screwup. It also highlights the fact that he was responsible - very responsible - for his brother's death.

[Ancalagon]

Maybe I'm misrememebring, but there is a reason RC didn't cast Heal. Or Shape Stone. Or any other spell.

You are misremembering. Redcloak still could cast spells (it was his theory his cloak protected him from the virus - which in that case would count as "disease" and the cloak protects his wearer from those (it seems)).

[Dark Matter]

Pssst, general hint for discussions of all sorts: constantly mispelling the thing you talk about does not indicate you spent a lot of time pondering the subject in question and the related questions and positions - which is a factor "< 1" by which all your statements and positions get multiplied.:Grumble: Litch => Lich

Spell checker says they're both misspelled.

[SoC175]

I don't say it was. But Stone Shape is such an obvious solution that there HAD to be some way to prevent it. The way to prevent it was to make sure all prisoners are rendered incapable of using magic.

[Ancalagon]

The way to prevent it was to make sure all prisoners are rendered incapable of using magic.

Yes, I fully agree. The point is: if it HAD BEEN that easy to get out they would have used that way. As they did not, it could not have been that easy. I brought the "magic prohibits stone shaping" up to have a reasonable explanation why the most obvious solution did not work.
That is all.

[RMS Oceanic]

They could have used their hands and battered the rock into submission.

Maybe I'm misrememebring, but there is a reason RC didn't cast Heal. Or Shape Stone. Or any other spell.

It wasn't anything to do with level. It was because they couldn't use magic. Turning Xykon into a Lich bypassed the mechanism Lirian used to block their magic...it didn't work on undead.

EJL

You are misremembering: Xykon, and every other caster, succumbed to a Druidic virus that destroys the victim's abilities to cast spells. The only one not affected was Redcloak, protected by the Crimson Mantle. And he was only level 9 or 10, so he couldn't try heal to remove the effect of the virus. He tried lower things like break enchantment.

[Dark Matter]

You are misremembering: Xykon, and every other caster, succumbed to a Druidic virus that destroys the victim's abilities to cast spells. The only one not affected was Redcloak, protected by the Crimson Mantle. And he was only level 9 or 10, so he couldn't try heal to remove the effect of the virus. He tried lower things like break enchantment.I'd suspect "Heal" wouldn't have worked either. That virus hits the radar as epic magic.

Maybe a variant on this http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/spellWorm.htm

[Optimystik]

I'd suspect "Heal" wouldn't have worked either. That virus hits the radar as epic magic.

I disagree - I think Heal would have worked, and Redcloak seems to think it might as well.

"Epic" doesn't mean "cannot be affected by non-epic magic." You can blast someone to atoms with Vengeful Gaze of God, but that doesn't mean they can't be True Resurrected. You can also block Soul Dominion with Mind Blank.

[RecklessFable]

I think this whole discussion skips over the problem that the Epic Level Druid wasn't just guarding the gate... she was the Warden or their prison.

RC might very well have casted Stone Shape to get them to the surface, but they needed X-Lich to blast what was left of their warband through the Guards and the Warden...

[Kurald Galain]

It is not a given that Xykon was already epic at that time. For instance, he didn't use any epic spells against Dorukan either.

[Zevox]

I think this whole discussion skips over the problem that the Epic Level Druid wasn't just guarding the gate... she was the Warden or their prison.

RC might very well have casted Stone Shape to get them to the surface, but they needed X-Lich to blast what was left of their warband through the Guards and the Warden...
As others pointed out, Lirian does not appear to have been paying much attention to them. In four months she never noticed they were in the process of turning Xykon into a Lich, and when they did escape, she was sitting in her home, and apparently unaware of their escape until Xykon showed up to kill her - even though you can bet Xykon didn't exactly make their escape a quiet one.

I'd guess she figured that the combination of their spellcasting being neutralized with the way that underground prison was constructed meant they didn't need much watching.

Zevox

[Souhiro]

Since Start of Darkness is a prequel, Redcloak only had two options at the time being:

- Create an Undead Xykon the Liche
- Create a Time Paradox

[Dark Matter]

I disagree - I think Heal would have worked, and Redcloak seems to think it might as well.

"Epic" doesn't mean "cannot be affected by non-epic magic." You can blast someone to atoms with Vengeful Gaze of God, but that doesn't mean they can't be True Resurrected. You can also block Soul Dominion with Mind Blank.Interesting point...


It is not a given that Xykon was already epic at that time. For instance, he didn't use any epic spells against Dorukan either.True, it's not a given... but it seems likely.

SoD Timeline95 years ago: Xykon (teenager) is at least level 8 (animate zombie). He starts his career.
27 years ago: Xykon (old man) becomes a Lich. He's at least level 19 (knows 2 level 9 spells).
Months ago (shortly after battle with Dorukan). He's at least level 21 (can cast epic spells).And then in the battle with Darth V he showed he's at least level 27 (there are hints he's at least level 32).

It doesn't seem reasonable that Xykon took 95 years to go up 12 levels then he went up 7 levels in the months after beating Dorukan.

Odds are that he was epic when he fought Dorukan (and not by a small amount). Granted, that's not "proof", but it is suggestive.

[Kurald Galain]

Months ago (shortly after battle with Dorukan). He's at least level 21 (can cast epic spells).
Well, for starters, he gained a lot of XP from defeating Dorukan.

[hamishspence]

Since you can't gain enough XP at one time to go up more than a single level, defeating Dorukan will have gained Xykon, at most, one level.

Though in theory it could have been almost two levels-worth of XP.

[Ancalagon]

Well, for starters, he gained a lot of XP from defeating Dorukan.

But not THAT much. Remember that XP on 3.5 are scaled relatively. And Dorukan was an encounter that was roughly fitting. Give or take a few levels, Xykon did not defeat someone who was ten levels higher than him. In fact, it's possible that Xykon did have the higher level of the two.

[Kish]

We know Dorukan was epic. If Xykon was higher level than Dorukan then Xykon was already epic. And in any case, a single level 23 character is defined as a "level-appropriate encounter" for a group of four level 23 PCs, not for a single level 23 PC; a level-appropriate encounter is supposed to cost ~20% of the group's resources, not give the group a coinflip's chance of being wiped out. If Dorukan was the same level as Xykon, he counted as an overwhelming encounter for Xykon, Redcloak, and lots of don't-count-at-all goblin mooks (before we even get into "Redcloak didn't actively fight Dorukan, and if he counts as on Xykon's side then his brother probably counts as on Dorukan's side"). If Dorukan was one or two levels below Xykon, still an overwhelming encounter. If Xykon was only level 20, the unspecified-but-epic-level Dorukan would have counted as a "run away!" level encounter for him, in the absence of three other level 20 characters on Xykon's side.

(Of course, Xykon was also defined as an overwhelming encounter for Dorukan; but since Dorukan's the one who died and Xykon's the one who got XP, that's neither here nor there.)

[Optimystik]

Aren't Called creatures worth XP as well? i.e. Dorukan's Gated reinforcements.

[hamishspence]

Not if they are a long way below Xykon in power. They appear Medium-sized.

If their CR was 8 or more below Xykon's level, like Belkar he might not have gotten XP for destroying a horde.

While The Giant doesn't always stick to the normal monster sizes, I'd be surprised if they were Planetars or Solars- they might only be ordinary devas of one kind or another.

Normally Gate doesn't summon very many creatures at once.

Maybe Dorukan already had an army of celestials waiting, and Gate simply opened the way for them to proceed- instead of being used as a Calling spell, being used as a passage, for a preexisting group of allies.

[Optimystik]

Not if they are a long way below Xykon in power. They appear Medium-sized.

If their CR was 8 or more below Xykon's level, like Belkar he might not have gotten XP for destroying a horde.

This is true, and I am definitely aware.


Normally Gate doesn't summon very many creatures at once.

Maybe Dorukan already had an army of celestials waiting, and Gate simply opened the way for them to proceed- instead of being used as a Calling spell, being used as a passage, for a preexisting group of allies.

If that is the case, then they would still be worth XP. Unless, as you said, they were too low CR.

[Ancalagon]

We know Dorukan was epic[...]

Yes, all this is perfectly true but we still can assume Xykon did not get a full level out of that encounter - not even speaking about the three or five or more he had to gain in case he was not already epic at that time to reach his current level.

My point is that the fight with Dorukan surely might have yielded some nice XP... but they simply cannot be "nice enough" to assume Xykon (now level 27ish) was back then not already in his mid 20s.