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View Full Version : [4e] Shardmind, to good?



Guinea Anubis
2010-03-28, 02:35 PM
I was looking at the PHB3 and was looking at the Shardmind and they just look to darn good without a down side.

Am I missing something here?

Asbestos
2010-03-28, 02:42 PM
What sort of downside are you looking for? I mean, do Elves (for example) have a downside or Wilden?

Evard
2010-03-28, 03:11 PM
Yeah they don't get an extra feat at first level and also they don't get an extra at-will

lol

Doc Roc
2010-03-28, 03:52 PM
Yeah they don't get an extra feat at first level and also they don't get an extra at-will

lol

Approval ratings for your comment are high.

tcrudisi
2010-03-28, 04:01 PM
I was looking at the PHB3 and was looking at the Shardmind and they just look to darn good without a down side.

Am I missing something here?

Have you seen the Half-Elf? Especially with the new article (Winning Races: Half-Elf), they are undoubtedly the best race (if not borderline broken).

Kurald Galain
2010-03-28, 06:48 PM
Yeah they don't get an extra feat at first level and also they don't get an extra at-will
Yeah, and so? Humans are quite a bit overrated, and their class features are unimpressive after level 5 or so.

Shardminds get the disadvantage that they're sentient crystals with boobs. I mean, come on :smallbiggrin:

rayne_dragon
2010-03-28, 07:24 PM
Yeah, and so? Humans are quite a bit overrated, and their class features are unimpressive after level 5 or so.

Shardminds get the disadvantage that they're sentient crystals with boobs. I mean, come on :smallbiggrin:

I'm glad this isn't bothering just me. It bugged me with dragonborn too, but at least they're living creatures.

I personally don't see much difference between most core races in terms of goodness except in terms of personal appeal (and optimisation for a particular class).

DragonBaneDM
2010-03-28, 07:26 PM
I'm glad this isn't bothering just me. It bugged me with dragonborn too, but at least they're living creatures.

I personally don't see much difference between most core races in terms of goodness except in terms of personal appeal (and optimisation for a particular class).

Oh yeah!!! I think I remember you posting something about disliking DragonBorn boobs a few weeks after 4e came out!

holywhippet
2010-03-28, 09:39 PM
Yeah, and so? Humans are quite a bit overrated, and their class features are unimpressive after level 5 or so.


For humans it depends on what class they take. For some classes, having an extra at-will can make a big difference due to being able to handle more situations appropriately. For other classes you can make do with a smaller range of powers as they are all roughly equal.

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-28, 09:44 PM
I don't comprehend. Is Shardmind going to become goodness, is it going to go to good, are comparing it to the principal of goodness?
Use good grammar in thread titles

SadisticFishing
2010-03-29, 05:54 AM
Shardmind is one of the worst in-combat races in the system, and probably the best out of combat races.

Three languages, +2 to three skills, telepathy.. yes please.

Half speed teleport? Absatively useless. No matter which class you're playing, there is a better race to use. Deva and Githzerai are both significantly better.

greenknight
2010-03-29, 07:28 AM
Half speed teleport? Absatively useless.

It also provides combat advantage, and if you happen to be playing a class that has a close or area attack, that can be very useful. Also, it's a teleport, and the only other race with a teleport power I know of is Eladrin. So if you don't get much or anything in the way of teleport powers via your class, it's better than nothing. As it happens, I'm playing a Shardmind Psion, and I've already used that teleport to escape flanking and hit the flankers hard once, and escape what could otherwise have been a very nasty encounter once. To me, Shard Swarm is golden.

Kurald Galain
2010-03-29, 09:18 AM
Also, it's a teleport, and the only other race with a teleport power I know of is Eladrin.
Shadar-Kai and Revenants.

Nevertheless, teleportation is probably the most useful and versatile racial power available. Aside from getting out of a flank (which generally doesn't matter unless you face monsters with Sneak Attack), it gets you out of grabs, over difficult or hazardous terrain, it works underwater, it gets you through windows and cell bars, and can substitute for Athletics and Acrobatics checks in a pinch.

Mark Hall
2010-03-29, 09:48 AM
I'm glad this isn't bothering just me. It bugged me with dragonborn too, but at least they're living creatures.

I personally don't see much difference between most core races in terms of goodness except in terms of personal appeal (and optimization for a particular class).

If your fights go on a while, having three at-wills to choose from can be very powerful... unless you're a cleric, paladin, or other two-build class. "Great, I have three options for at-wills... but one of them is going to be perennially useless, because it uses a stat I didn't buff."

DSCrankshaw
2010-03-29, 10:15 AM
If your fights go on a while, having three at-wills to choose from can be very powerful... unless you're a cleric, paladin, or other two-build class. "Great, I have three options for at-wills... but one of them is going to be perennially useless, because it uses a stat I didn't buff."

Fortunately, Divine Power expanded the options for these classes.

Anyway, the, ahem, "assets" of the shardminds don't bother me as much as for the dragonborn. Shardminds choose their own forms, and are deliberately mimicking the male and female shapes. Thus they have a better excuse than the dragonborn, who were just made that way. My internal reasoning is that the god who made them (Io), deliberately made them as intermediaries between dragons and the other, mammalian races, and thus he deliberately gave them characteristics that made them look more like the other races, even if it wasn't necessary.

Yakk
2010-03-29, 10:22 AM
What, an encounter teleport is useless?

In what game again?

It is shorter range than the Eladrin teleport, but gives them a +2 to attack (CA).

Kurald Galain
2010-03-29, 10:32 AM
If your fights go on a while, having three at-wills to choose from can be very powerful...
However, that means that the much-vaunted human racial ability is useful only in fights that "go on a while", and fights tend to get boring after awhile (specifically, after the point where the outcome is already clear, but the enemies have some more hundreds of HP to grind through; before this point, PCs tend to use encounter powers).

There can be good long fights, but most fights last around five rounds. On the other hand, every other racial ability is likely to be useful in every single combat.



Anyway, the, ahem, "assets" of the shardminds don't bother me as much as for the dragonborn. Shardminds choose their own forms, and are deliberately mimicking the male and female shapes.
If shardminds can choose their own forms, they should be able to shapeshift at will and take on non-humanoid shapes as well.

Mark Hall
2010-03-29, 10:34 AM
Fortunately, Divine Power expanded the options for these classes.

Anyway, the, ahem, "assets" of the shardminds don't bother me as much as for the dragonborn. Shardminds choose their own forms, and are deliberately mimicking the male and female shapes. Thus they have a better excuse than the dragonborn, who were just made that way. My internal reasoning is that the god who made them (Io), deliberately made them as intermediaries between dragons and the other, mammalian races, and thus he deliberately gave them characteristics that made them look more like the other races, even if it wasn't necessary.

Yeah. Last night we also had a discussion on Devas... we decided they're like the divine beings in Dogma... no bits, no nipples.

DSCrankshaw
2010-03-29, 12:01 PM
If shardminds can choose their own forms, they should be able to shapeshift at will and take on non-humanoid shapes as well.

To quote from the PHB3, "Shardminds choose their forms to mimic the shapes of humanoids; some take on forms that seems more masculine, while others appear more feminine."

I vaguely remember reading somewhere that shardminds can change their own shapes, but it's a slow process. I don't see it in the PHB3 description, though, so I may be misremembering. And like you, I don't see why the shardmind has to be humanoid. It might be a bit difficult to play a non-humanoid shardmind--how does it hold its weapons?--but it might make an interesting NPC/monster.

Guinea Anubis
2010-03-29, 12:55 PM
They also do not have to eat, breath or sleep. There telepathy is also on ANY THING that has a language with in 5 squares.

Then there is one thing that is bugging me about every race in the PHB3, they all have +2 to one stat and then +2 to this or that stat.

Ferrin
2010-03-29, 01:29 PM
However, that means that the much-vaunted human racial ability is useful only in fights that "go on a while", and fights tend to get boring after awhile (specifically, after the point where the outcome is already clear, but the enemies have some more hundreds of HP to grind through; before this point, PCs tend to use encounter powers).

There can be good long fights, but most fights last around five rounds. On the other hand, every other racial ability is likely to be useful in every single combat.


If shardminds can choose their own forms, they should be able to shapeshift at will and take on non-humanoid shapes as well.

It's a fantasy game. Also; it might not be choosing, but rather something done subconciously.

Yakk
2010-03-29, 03:14 PM
*nod* -- quite possible for a shardmind to be an intelligent being of roughly the power of a mortal race, they have to match the pattern of such mortals.

A sharddragon would be a different beast: it would be a larger collection of shards.

A shardtree could possibly exist, but it would be a psionically attuned tree, not a somewhat mimic of an intelligent mortal being.

tcrudisi
2010-03-29, 05:50 PM
Then there is one thing that is bugging me about every race in the PHB3, they all have +2 to one stat and then +2 to this or that stat.

I believe this is the trend we are going to see. It's expected (by some random people on another thread) that all the other races will be updated to reflect this. For instance, Half-Elves are thought (by people who believe that everyone will be getting that update) to be getting Wis as a secondary option. As quasi-proof, take a look at the Winning Races: Half-Elf article and you'll see one of their feats gives them an option to use Con, Cha, or Wis for attacks and damage when using their dilettante power.

Asbestos
2010-03-29, 09:22 PM
Yeah. Last night we also had a discussion on Devas... we decided they're like the divine beings in Dogma... no bits, no nipples.

But you can take a Deva Heritage feat! What now?!

rayne_dragon
2010-03-29, 09:35 PM
They also do not have to eat, breath or sleep. There telepathy is also on ANY THING that has a language with in 5 squares.

Then there is one thing that is bugging me about every race in the PHB3, they all have +2 to one stat and then +2 to this or that stat.

Actually, on considering further, Shardmind do have a number of nice advantages. I'm not sure if it's enough to make them too good, but they're an appealing race to play for someone who likes to be a jack or all trades or the party face.

As for the +2 to one stat and a choice of two others it seems to be the beginning of power creep unless they are actually going to expand that option to other races.

Also, DragonBaneDM, I'm impressed that you remember my posts longer than I do. I kind of assume everyone forgets my stuff in a few days (like I do).

The Demented One
2010-03-29, 09:37 PM
But you can take a Deva Heritage feat! What now?!
John Milton answers your question, my friend.




"Whatever pure thou in the body enjoy’st
(And pure thou wert created) we enjoy
In eminence, and obstacle find none
Of membrane, joint, or limb, exclusive bars:
Easier than air with air, if Spirits embrace,
Total they mix, union of pure with pure
Desiring; nor restrained conveyance need
As flesh to mix with flesh, or soul with soul.”

Artanis
2010-03-29, 11:31 PM
I really, really hope they don't go back and give older races a switchable stat. Stats should be just part of a race's power level, those races that get a switchable one should, IMO, pay for it elsewhere. What's more, having some races with a switchable stat and some races with fixed stat is that much more variety they can have.



Of course, knowing my history, me wanting them not to do it practically guarantees that they will :smallfrown:

trmptfnfr
2010-03-29, 11:47 PM
John Milton answers your question, my friend.

I'd like to note that paradise lost has just been quoted in a discussion regarding D&D feats, and I feel this should be empathized.

That is all.

NeoVid
2010-03-30, 03:29 AM
As soon as I saw the Shardmind for the first time, I instantly pegged them as an insanely good race mechanically. Much as I like them for the numbers, I'm not interested enough in them to run one, unless I decide to play a class that's perfectly suited to them.

And I do have to agree their features make them a better out of combat race. All they have that really has an impact on combat is that crazy good racial encounter power.




If shardminds can choose their own forms, they should be able to shapeshift at will and take on non-humanoid shapes as well.

I can't believe I didn't think of this sort of thing myself. Now if I ever play a Shardmind, I'll have to make mine base its appearance off of something other than an ordinary humanoid.

Mark Hall
2010-03-30, 09:54 AM
I can't believe I didn't think of this sort of thing myself. Now if I ever play a Shardmind, I'll have to make mine base its appearance off of something other than an ordinary humanoid.

A beast of some sort? (http://gargoyles.wikia.com/wiki/Bronx)

Artanis
2010-03-30, 11:38 AM
I can't believe I didn't think of this sort of thing myself. Now if I ever play a Shardmind, I'll have to make mine base its appearance off of something other than an ordinary humanoid.

Does it make me a bad person if I want to play one named Chenjesu whose significant other is a Warforged named Mmrnmhrm? :smalltongue:

Evard
2010-03-30, 12:53 PM
I really, really hope they don't go back and give older races a switchable stat. Stats should be just part of a race's power level, those races that get a switchable one should, IMO, pay for it elsewhere. What's more, having some races with a switchable stat and some races with fixed stat is that much more variety they can have.


Of course, knowing my history, me wanting them not to do it practically guarantees that they will :smallfrown:

I love the idea for switchable stats actually... Since not everyone in a race would excel in the same area. It gives races a diversity that is long needed. I could even see them give races a +2 [mod] +2 [mod of character choice], this would show that the race has a natural aptitude toward a characteristic plus a personal flavor. Lets say all dwarfs are naturally wiser than the norm, with the second stat switchable I can say that my dwarf has always been sickly and thus change the con bonus to a Int bonus. Since my dwarf was sick a lot she had to stay in the house/school studying not out in the mines or in fighter school.

Mark Hall
2010-03-30, 02:13 PM
Downside to switchable stats is that it removes some of the power from humans.

Mordokai
2010-03-30, 02:38 PM
The only solution to that being that they go back and give hummies a +2 bonus to two stats, choosable by player at creation :smalltongue:

And I'm actually serious about that.

Hzurr
2010-03-30, 02:56 PM
The only solution to that being that they go back and give hummies a +2 bonus to two stats, choosable by player at creation :smalltongue:

And I'm actually serious about that.

Wow. That's...a bit too good.

Mordokai
2010-03-30, 03:04 PM
Considering I hear quite often that the whole +2 to one stat isn't really that big a deal and how human racial abilities loose steam after certain level (was it five or therearound?)... I don't really consider it as such.

But this isn't really a topic for it. If anybody feels like talking about it they can easily open a new one, so we won't loiter in this one any more.

Mark Hall
2010-03-30, 04:00 PM
But you can take a Deva Heritage feat! What now?!

Just a thought, not canon, is that your body was ensouled with the soul of a deva, even though your body is X... your mother gave birth in a particularly sacred site, as a deva was being reincarnated.

Kurald Galain
2010-03-30, 05:04 PM
Considering I hear quite often that the whole +2 to one stat isn't really that big a deal and how human racial abilities loose steam after certain level (was it five or therearound?)... I don't really consider it as such.

This, definitely.

Sure, a +1 to your primary stat is good to have. No, it is not the case (as some charoppers seem to suggest) that your character is crippled without it.

Having a race be +2 to one stat and +2 to your choice of two others isn't more powerful. It just means there's some more builds that synergize a bit better with the race. And no, I do not expect WOTC to update the PHB1 and PHB2 for this reason, it doesn't seem necessary, and they primarily stick to errata'ing things that are too good.

Mordokai
2010-03-30, 05:21 PM
Though Adept Dilettante from the newest WR article definetly gives a nudge in the direction that WotC actually do have that intention, if you ask me.

Kurald Galain
2010-03-30, 05:37 PM
Though Adept Dilettante from the newest WR article definetly gives a nudge in the direction that WotC actually do have that intention, if you ask me.

I don't actually think so. Rather, by making it Con, Cha and Wis, they've got the majority of classes covered, without actually having to say "use whichever ability you feel like". If that feat was restricted to con and cha, it would be pointless for most base classes.

GodotIsW8ing4U
2010-11-14, 07:53 PM
They actually ARE updating previous races with a switchable stat now, though, so yeah.

Psyren
2010-11-14, 08:09 PM
Actually, on considering further, Shardmind do have a number of nice advantages. I'm not sure if it's enough to make them too good, but they're an appealing race to play for someone who likes to be a jack or all trades or the party face.

Party face? A walking, talking mass of crystals? Your NPCs must have seen it all :smalltongue:

Vaynor
2010-11-15, 12:34 AM
The Red Towel: Thread necromancy.