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EpicEvokerElf
2010-03-28, 06:19 PM
Feats, PrCs, maneuvers, equipment... This is Pathfinder, but we're allowing most anything from 3.5 with little modification. I'm starting at first level, and my current selections are as follows:

Heaviest armor I can find
Heavy shield
Dwarven Waraxe

Stone Power feat (Power attack, but instead of damage I get 2 temporary hp per point penalty for a round)

Steel Wind (hit 2 enemies)
Stone Bones (DR 5/adamantine for 1 round following strike)
Charging Minotaur (charging bull rush deals 2d6+Str)
Punishing Stance (+1d6 damage on all attacks, -2 AC)

I'm heading for a rebuilt version of either Dwarven Defender or Deepstone Sentinel, but I'll probably remain straight Warblade until then (my DM allows them to use heavy armor). Any ideas would be great!

Eldariel
2010-03-28, 06:28 PM
I'd consider some Tiger Claw Strikes for more raw damage increase. The X Animal Line is v. good for those and works well as a more "offensive stance"; the To Hit-bonus also makes Stone Power safer. Though frankly, you'd probably work better as a Crusader since Delayed Damage Pool synergises so well with Stone Power.

But if you wanna stick to Warblade, I'd get into Tiger Claw through Rabid Wolf Strike once you qualify (also, Sudden Leap is fairly good) and eventually Rabid Bear Strike. If you have Jump, consider some of those maneuvers too.


I assume the military commander-nature of White Raven doesn't interest you? Anyways, yeah, you're looking pretty good. Few Diamond Minds here or there may also be order, but beyond that there's little to add.

The Glyphstone
2010-03-28, 06:53 PM
Tiger Claw benefits best from dual-wielding though.

I'd recommend focusing as much as possible on Diamond Mind -get the Nightmare Blade line and Insightful Strike/Greater Insightful Strike maneuvers, since you can't rely on the 2-handed power attack multipliers for damage. Stone Power combos pretty nicely with Emerald Razor for making touch attacks and getting temp. HP.

FishAreWet
2010-03-28, 06:59 PM
Shield Spikes. Now you're dual wielding.

Eldariel
2010-03-28, 07:08 PM
Tiger Claw benefits best from dual-wielding though.

That's not the whole school. The maneuvers I outlined are specifically great for single-handed style. Though Diamond Mind Concentration Strikes and such are arguably stronger, they come with the tasty To Hit-bonus.

Part of Tiger Claw is focused on TWF, but the school is wide enough to contain great one-hander maneuvers too.

The Rabbler
2010-03-28, 07:20 PM
as was mentioned, crusader is a nice choice because of the damage pool and Devoted Spirit maneuvers. If you want to stick with warblade, however, then I'd suggest picking up Martial Study a few times (at higher levels) and grabbing martial stance when you hit level 15 (Immortal Fortitude is easily the best defensive stance I've ever seen). Top that off with some Diamond Mind maneuvers and a maxed concentration and you'll be doing some respectable damage.

Are maneuvers gained from Martial Study re-trainable through leveling up? I haven't looked at the RAW. if so, getting the feat earlier wouldn't drag you down that much.

also, you might want to look into getting a wrathful healing (I forget the book) weapon as soon as possible instead of using stone power; real healing is better than temporary HP and you don't take a penalty to hit (and I like the idea of being filled with positive energy by cutting someone in half). but items are a different conversation.

EDIT: whoops, guess items are part of the conversation. take a look at the ToB Discipline items, just because they're fun. If you're looking for more damage with your weapons, you might like strongarm bracers and sizing on your weapon (only a +5000 gp enhancement).

also, if you have access to any item property you want, you could go with a halfweight (UD) mithril fullplate of Nimbleness (MiC). It's fullplate with 0 ARP, +4 max dex, and is treated as light. slap on landing (MiC), quickness (MiC), and a crystal of alacrity and you're looking at a +10' bonus to movement and -40ft height for falling damage with heavy armor. It's a bit more costly than your average full plate of heavy fortification, but life's no fun when you're too safe.

finally: one belt of battle (MiC).

The Rabbler
2010-03-28, 07:40 PM
also, for the small price of 7500 GP, you can combine the belt of battle with a belt of hidden pouches and make a Utility Belt (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4400.0])

TheDarkDM
2010-03-28, 07:45 PM
Grab Dwarven Armor Proficiency from Races of Stone to run around in Mithral Battle Plate. It's effective and thematically appropriate.

The Rabbler
2010-03-28, 07:51 PM
Grab Dwarven Armor Proficiency from Races of Stone to run around in Mithral Battle Plate. It's effective and thematically appropriate.

not really effective. battle plate is only 1 AC higher than full plate; kind of a waste of a feat. though if you do want to do it, you might want to look at mountain plate. take what I said earlier about armor, add heavy armor optimization/greater, and you have a 10 AC armor with 0 ARP and +5 max dex.

Eldariel
2010-03-28, 07:55 PM
You kids these days with your Exotic Armors... :smallwink: Want heavy armor? Get a Mechanus Gear [PlH]. Dwarves don't suffer any speed penalty in it (as per normal) and it's wearable with normal Heavy Armor Prof. +10 Armor, +0 Dex. Best you can get, and no need to waste a feat.

Thrawn183
2010-03-28, 07:59 PM
I wouldn't go with the Stone Power, as Pathfinder doesn't let you PA much. At least, not at low levels, which is when the feat is best.

EpicEvokerElf
2010-03-28, 10:33 PM
Whoah, thanks for the quick responses!

I've been worried about Stone Power with the PF nerfs to its mechanic; it's really not worth it anymore (barring Crusader delayed damage)? It seems to fit the build so well, but it doesn't look all that powerful anymore.

Battle Plate (unless adjusted for PF) is actually worse than full plate now; IIRC it has a max Dex of 0, reduces speed even for dwarves, and takes an extra feat, and as full plate now gives a +9 armor bonus, it's not worth the investment by any stretch. I'd try Mechanus Gear if I didn't actually have a Dex bonus, but I do (very good rolls); perhaps with all the enhancements The Rabbler suggested, at high levels, it'd be useful. For now, full plate will give me the same benefit, and I can make it myself without going and learning what Mechanus Gear armor is from some Inevitable craftsman ('cause there's no way a dwarf would have actually seen it before, realistically).

I'd like to do Crusader, but I'm not willing to give up Iron Heart (or Diamond Mind, I suppose). Martial Study maneuvers/stances are not retrainable, by RAW, but I think my DM might be persuaded to remove that clause as long as the replacement is within the same discipline. That's how I'm planning on getting my fill of DS maneuvers, and Thicket of Blades. Also, the homebrew crossbreed of Dwarven Defender and Deepstone Sentinel I'm working on (over in Homebrew; check it out and PEACH!) has DS maneuvers.

I admit, I haven't looked at Tiger Claw (I also assumed it was all TWF); I'll check out the maneuvers you mentioned.

Anybody have feat advice? Are Armor Specialization and Shield Focus (PHII) worth it? Do I even bother with Weapon Focus (I can retrain it with Weapon Mastery, as a warblade, but I probably wouldn't...)? Martial Study and Martial Stance might end up being my bread-and-butter feats, since feats come every odd level in PF and I'll have to burn them somehow.

What is a Belt of Battle?

Ernir
2010-03-28, 10:43 PM
Anybody have feat advice? Are Armor Specialization and Shield Focus (PHII) worth it? Do I even bother with Weapon Focus (I can retrain it with Weapon Mastery, as a warblade, but I probably wouldn't...)? Martial Study and Martial Stance might end up being my bread-and-butter feats, since feats come every odd level in PF and I'll have to burn them somehow.
The most general Feat advice I can offer... feats that give you new options tend to be better than those that "only" give you straight, numerical bonuses. So the question I suggest you ask yourself is: What do you want to do? You have an axe, you have a shield, how do you want to kill things with them? :smalltongue:


What is a Belt of Battle?

A magic item from the Magic Item Compendium, page 73. Very handy. Gives a passive bonus to initiative, and extra actions a few times a day. 12k.

Hurlbut
2010-03-28, 10:48 PM
Battle Plate (unless adjusted for PF) is actually worse than full plate now; IIRC it has a max Dex of 0, reduces speed even for dwarves, and takes an extra feat, and as full plate now gives a +9 armor bonus, it's not worth the investment by any stretch. I'd try Mechanus Gear if I didn't actually have a Dex bonus, but I do (very good rolls); perhaps with all the enhancements The Rabbler suggested, at high levels, it'd be useful. For now, full plate will give me the same benefit, and I can make it myself without going and learning what Mechanus Gear armor is from some Inevitable craftsman ('cause there's no way a dwarf would have actually seen it before, realistically).
Actually all medium and heavy armors when converted to Pathfinder gain +1 AB
Anyhow if you want a dwarven armor, just get a dwarven crafted armor. If your character has a nice Dex, get Field Plate from Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting book and add +1 ab (since it is PRE-Pathfinder Ruleset).

Eldariel
2010-03-28, 10:52 PM
I've been worried about Stone Power with the PF nerfs to its mechanic; it's really not worth it anymore (barring Crusader delayed damage)? It seems to fit the build so well, but it doesn't look all that powerful anymore.

Depends. If you play it as printed in ToB, it's fine. If you play it like PA from Pathfinder, it's trash.


Battle Plate (unless adjusted for PF) is actually worse than full plate now; IIRC it has a max Dex of 0, reduces speed even for dwarves, and takes an extra feat, and as full plate now gives a +9 armor bonus, it's not worth the investment by any stretch. I'd try Mechanus Gear if I didn't actually have a Dex bonus, but I do (very good rolls); perhaps with all the enhancements The Rabbler suggested, at high levels, it'd be useful. For now, full plate will give me the same benefit, and I can make it myself without going and learning what Mechanus Gear armor is from some Inevitable craftsman ('cause there's no way a dwarf would have actually seen it before, realistically).

Meh, Dwarves are friggin' craftsmen/engineers; Mechanus Gear feels like just the kinda thing they'd be able to come up with. Also, it's got +1 more armor than Fullplate with full Dex (Fullplate maxes out at +9 Armor +1 Dex, Mechanus Gear should be at +11 Armor). Mithril Mechanus Gear if you have Dex to burn, and go to town!


I'd like to do Crusader, but I'm not willing to give up Iron Heart (or Diamond Mind, I suppose). Martial Study maneuvers/stances are not retrainable, by RAW, but I think my DM might be persuaded to remove that clause as long as the replacement is within the same discipline. That's how I'm planning on getting my fill of DS maneuvers, and Thicket of Blades. Also, the homebrew crossbreed of Dwarven Defender and Deepstone Sentinel I'm working on (over in Homebrew; check it out and PEACH!) has DS maneuvers.

Diamond Mind has some wonderful Strikes so if you stay Warblade, I'd probably frankly prioritise it. For a one-weapon one-hander, Diamond Mind is a godsend.


I admit, I haven't looked at Tiger Claw (I also assumed it was all TWF); I'll check out the maneuvers you mentioned.

I hadn't either until I made a two-hander/archer that needed Tiger Claw to qualify; turns out Rabid Wolf Strike is awesome (though I use it with Power Attack) and Rabid Bear Strike more-of-the-same. And Sudden Leap is as useful as ever and some of the stances are quite nice. And the Jump-maneuvers can kick butt.


Anybody have feat advice? Are Armor Specialization and Shield Focus (PHII) worth it? Do I even bother with Weapon Focus (I can retrain it with Weapon Mastery, as a warblade, but I probably wouldn't...)? Martial Study and Martial Stance might end up being my bread-and-butter feats, since feats come every odd level in PF and I'll have to burn them somehow.

Armor Specialization isn't worth it. Shield Specialization can be worth it as it's a prerequisite for Shield Ward, which really makes Shields worth using. It may also be worth looking into Complete Warrior's Shield Slam-feat; it can be quite fun though with maneuvers you might not need it.

Weapon Focus-line seems wholly unimpressive; it's got 6 feats two out of which are worth a feat (Melee Weapon Mastery and Weapon Supremacy). You don't have too many feats so think carefully. You may want to consider Improved Trip-line up to Knock-Down (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown) for some literal smackdown, if interested.

Robilar's Gambit for the appropriate level is nearly a must and some of the CWar Tacticals are still consideration-worthy, as are the ToB tacticals (Stormguard Warrior is nice, for example). Btw, out of Devoted Spirit, you must pick up Shield Block & eventual Shield Counter. Those two maneuvers alone fix all the problems with Shields.


What is a Belt of Battle?

Item from Magic Item Compendium; boosts your Initiative and gains extra actions. 3 charges per day, burn 1 for a move action, 2 for a standard action and all 3 for a full-round action (activating it is a swift action). Very useful with the "Oh ****!"-function.

EpicEvokerElf
2010-03-28, 10:55 PM
I'm not interested in shield bash, certainly, nor in trying to pull tripping cheese (harder in PF anyway). I'm contemplating bull rush, but it's too "THOG SMASH" for this particular dwarf (he's a smith by trade, and a very calm, contemplative character). I really like the idea of being a solid bastion of defense, guarding the squishier members of my party (including a sociopathic adolescent elf psion who considers me a beast of burden), and of being able to take anything by enemies can dish without flinching (before cleaving their heads from their shoulders, naturally).

I agree, passive bonuses are boring; on the other hand, maneuvers are plenty spicy. What options are out there for this fellow?

EDIT: Goodness, two more replies while I was posting!

EpicEvokerElf
2010-03-28, 11:01 PM
Stand Still (XPH) sounds fun... Robilar's Gambit is a given, and thanks for bringing Shield Ward to my attention.

I'll talk to my DM to make sure he's up to speed on converting armors; if so, I can think up an excuse to invent Mechanus Gear ASAP.

What are the best DM strikes, and how would you suggest working them out since Concentration was removed in PF?

EDIT: Also, Stormguard Warrior looks pretty darn nice; I'm annoyed that Shards of Granite is a) not that great and b) not usable with my waraxe.

Hurlbut
2010-03-28, 11:10 PM
Seriously, don't forgot to have your armor be dwarven crafted, bonus if you get it be adamantine, for all extra hitpoint goodness that any sunder attempt have to go through :smallcool:

EpicEvokerElf
2010-03-28, 11:16 PM
I make all my gear myself, so it won't be a problem once I've got the cash for dwarvencraft.

Also, linky (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=146028) to the homebrew PrC just in case anybody's feeling especially charitable.

Hurlbut
2010-03-28, 11:25 PM
I make all my gear myself, so it won't be a problem once I've got the cash for dwarvencraft.

Also, linky (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=146028) to the homebrew PrC just in case anybody's feeling especially charitable.Actually you forgot to indicate how much of the PrC's levels count as martial initiator levels for one of the martial initiator class the PrC character has levels in.

HunterOfJello
2010-03-28, 11:43 PM
Best guide I've seen for warblades on the internet so far is the Tome of Battle for Dummies (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871270/Tome_of_Battle_for_Dummies) guide.

If you're interested in using a controller build like many optimizers than a tuom (A&EG), spiked chain or kusari-gama (3.5 DMG) would be very useful. They're each weapons that can be used to attack enemies at 5ft and 10ft.


Stone Power as a feat is terrible for a warblade. Temporary hit points are very unreliable and having a maximum of 10 temporary hp will mean the benefits will be non-existant after lvl 5 or so.

Stone Bones is also pretty unreliable. I would suggest Moment of Perfect Mind or Leading the Attack above it. Moment of Perfect Mind is very useful to keep on the backburner and then bust out when you know you're going to be dealing with a spellcaster or psionic in the near future. Leading the Attack will just have most of the players in your group like you more. Also, White Raven Tactics, one of the best maneuvers and abilities in the game, requires 1 White Raven maneuver to obtain as a maneuver or use through the Crown of the White Ravens.


As far as stances go, the best lvl 1 stance for non-kukri wielding Warblades is definitely Hunter's Sense. If you don't want to take a Tiger Claw maneuver to allow you access to the stance, then I would suggest Stance of Clarity.

The big difference between Stance of Clarity and Punishing Stance is that the first is useful against tough enemies and the second is useful against weak enemies. All Punishing Stance will help with is turning a 10 minute fight against a group of weak enemies into a 6 minute fight against a group of weak enemies.

Besides, whatever bonus AC you're getting from your shield will have been lost by being in punishing stance in the first place. You'd be better off jus using a 2 hander. Think about the math this way:

Large Shield + Longsword = +2 AC , 1d8+str mod damage
Large Shield + Longsword + Punishing Stance = +0 AC , 1d8+1d6+ str mod damage

however
Greatsword = +0 AC , 2d6+ (1.5*str mod) damage



~~~~


*edit*

gotta go eat, more to come

CyMage
2010-03-29, 12:58 AM
I realise that most people consider the Warblade just an upgraded Fighter, but there are a few minor differences that people do forget. Warblades do not have the heavy armor proficiency. Light and medium only.

HunterOfJello
2010-03-29, 02:20 AM
I realise that most people consider the Warblade just an upgraded Fighter, but there are a few minor differences that people do forget. Warblades do not have the heavy armor proficiency. Light and medium only.

Yeah. A much better explanation is that a Warblade is an upgraded Fighter/Ranger/Barbarian hyrbid.

JaronK
2010-03-29, 02:24 AM
Get Shield Charge and Shield Slam, along with Improved Trip. Now when you charge and hit you beat the snot out of what you hit.

And if you want heavy armor, dip two levels in Crusader. Grab Shield Block while you're at it.

JaronK

Leon
2010-03-29, 02:26 AM
Feats, PrCs, maneuvers, equipment... This is Pathfinder, but we're allowing most anything from 3.5 with little modification. I'm starting at first level, and my current selections are as follows:

Heaviest armor I can find
Heavy shield
Dwarven Waraxe


By the average gold at 1st for a Warblade your best bet would be a large Wood shield, Scale mail and a Waraxe for 87 gold. Upgrade to breastplate as soon as you can and start the saving fund for Magic Fullplate about the same time

Improved Shield Bash is a feat chain starter that you may want to consider - is needed for the slam line of feats, also opens up the "TWF with Shield feat" which name i cant recall


I realise that most people consider the Warblade just an upgraded Fighter, but there are a few minor differences that people do forget. Warblades do not have the heavy armor proficiency. Light and medium only.



my DM allows them to use heavy armor). Any ideas would be great!

Eldariel
2010-03-29, 08:48 AM
What are the best DM strikes, and how would you suggest working them out since Concentration was removed in PF?

I'd either derive them off Martial Lore or just ask DM to give back Concentration.

Person_Man
2010-03-29, 08:58 AM
Guide to Shields (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123630)

JaronK is correct that one of the best shield combos is Shield Bash + Shield Slam + Shield Charge for a free Trip and Daze attack when you Charge. However, unless your DM is feeling charitable you can't Pounce with it, so it quickly becomes useless at higher levels.

At mid-high levels, any decent shield combo requires wants Divine Shield, which adds your Cha bonus to your shield bonus. This in turn opens up many other options. But it requires Turn/Rebuke Undead.

So my suggestions is Cleric/Crusader/Ruby Knight Vindicator. This will give you a good mix of high AC, DR, maneuvers, stances, and spells. This also allows you to drop Stone Power in favor of Minor Shapeshift (Complete Arcane - As long as you have any Polymorph spell of 4th level or higher memorized, you can spend a Swift Action to give yourself temporary hit points equal to your Hit Dice). It's superior to Stone power at higher levels, unless you use you Swift Action a lot (a distinct possibility). Alternatively, you can just buy a Bodyfeeder (www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Bodyfeeder) weapon. Put it on any *4 weapon and buy a Bag of Tricks. Before combat Coup de Grace an animal with Power Attack maxed out, and you get massive temporary hit points for 10 minutes.

marjan
2010-03-29, 09:34 AM
At mid-high levels, any decent shield combo requires wants Divine Shield, which adds your Cha bonus to your shield bonus. This in turn opens up many other options. But it requires Turn/Rebuke Undead.


For Warblade (especially since he is dwarf), Law Devotion would be much better choice (cha is most likely extremely dumped stat), possibly with a dip in a some class with Turn Undead.

Master_Rahl22
2010-03-29, 01:41 PM
I'll second that you should focus on Diamond Mind, and that Tiger Claw has some really awesome stuff that's independent of what weapon you're wielding. The Jump maneuvers all add lots of extra damage, and some have attack bonuses or count the target as flat-footed against the attack.

You might also consider going with Crusader and using your Martial Study/Martial Stance feats for the Iron Heart/Diamond Mind stuff though, since Crusader class features are very well suited for tanking. Just another perspective.

EpicEvokerElf
2010-03-29, 05:10 PM
The problem with the Tiger Claw strikes—leaping into combat, swinging wildly, foaming at the mouth—is that this character would never do that. Mechanically nice though they may be, I'm going to discount them altogether. I may ask my DM if he'll let me trade TC (and perhaps White Raven) for Devoted Spirit, but I doubt it'll happen.

Cleric/Crusader/RKV is totally out of the question; not only have I already begun play, but we've already got a cleric (and I'm kind of sick of playing casters). I'm also going to say "no thanks" to the various chain weapons that make tripper builds so deadly; not only have they been nerfed in PF, but so has tripping in general (split into 2 feats). I also just don't want to open that can of worms, as it'll piss off my party.

It's looking like I'll be focusing on IH, DM, and the occasional SD maneuvers mostly (with as many DS as I can get). I think Concentration might either be replaced with Perception (not my first choice) or [level + 3 + CON] (essentially unchanged, but doesn't cost skill points).

Shield Slam and its friends sound nifty; I'll dig out CWar and check them out.

How does Law Devotion relate to Divine Shield, exactly?

Thanks again for all the feedback!

Eldariel
2010-03-29, 05:20 PM
The problem with the Tiger Claw strikes—leaping into combat, swinging wildly, foaming at the mouth—is that this character would never do that. Mechanically nice though they may be, I'm going to discount them altogether. I may ask my DM if he'll let me trade TC (and perhaps White Raven) for Devoted Spirit, but I doubt it'll happen.

Refluffing is your friend. Jumping into combat mouth foaming? Only if you say so! If Rabid Wolf Strike is merely switching to a a risky lunge or temporarily opening up your guard for a telling blow, well, that's all up to you.

If it's your feral beast igniting and ripping your target a new one, that's equally valid, but that's not the only way to fluff 'em.

The Glyphstone
2010-03-29, 05:27 PM
Refluffing + ToB = a dangerous subject lately.

EpicEvokerElf
2010-03-29, 11:59 PM
Well, I guess I could see using it while fighting defensively to make it feel more appropriate (negates both the AC penalty and the attack bonus), but I just don't want to dabble that much in the end. I'm better off sticking with fewer disciplines, as I'll only ever get about 15 maneuvers (with Martial Study) and some (DM in particular) have high prereqs. Despite its potential, I'm going to say no to Tiger Claw for this character (but thank you for bringing it to my attention, as I didn't realize there were many strikes that didn't rely on TWF).

Still looking for feats, as well as trying to fix up this PrC (only real reason to take Stone Power, unless anyone has ideas to help me redo the prereqs).

Endarire
2010-03-30, 01:37 AM
A mithril chain shirt is the best overall armor in the game for anyone who can use it. 4 AC, no armor check penalty, no speed reduction, anyone can tumble in it, and it inspires old-timers to think about Lord of the Rings.

Unless uber heavy armors are exceptionally common in your game, I advise against them. Too many drawbacks for minor AC bonuses.

Also, let Hood (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872838/Little_Red_Raiding_Hood_A_Tale_of_38_Guide_to_the_ 35_Dragoon) inspire you.

The Rabbler
2010-03-30, 01:52 AM
A mithril chain shirt is the best overall armor in the game for anyone who can use it. 4 AC, no armor check penalty, no speed reduction, anyone can tumble in it, and it inspires old-timers to think about Lord of the Rings.

Unless uber heavy armors are exceptionally common in your game, I advise against them. Too many drawbacks for minor AC bonuses.


you didn't read my post.

though it costs a lot more, the ubermagical armor I pointed out is 4 AC (5 in PF) higher, lower max dex (but what warblade has +8 dex?), no arp, and no speed reduction. comparing it to a fully enhanced mithril chain shirt, you'd have a +5 chain shirt with +5 enhancements vs +0 mithril fullplate with +4 in required enhancements and +6 in other enhancements to get the same bonus to armor class, same arp, and same movement penalty (n/a).

EDIT: looking at the comparison, this reminds me of the difference between simple builds and complex builds. one starts off easily and scales normally, while the other takes some time to set up and pays off more in the end.

JaronK
2010-03-30, 02:03 AM
A mithril chain shirt is the best overall armor in the game for anyone who can use it. 4 AC, no armor check penalty, no speed reduction, anyone can tumble in it, and it inspires old-timers to think about Lord of the Rings.

Unless uber heavy armors are exceptionally common in your game, I advise against them. Too many drawbacks for minor AC bonuses.

He's a dwarf. What drawbacks are we talking about? Are we expecting a Warblade to hide? I'd say Mithral Mechanicus Gear is just perfect... he'll be nice and heavily armored with super armor, and it looks like the special dwarf armor from Dragon Age. Also, it has 6 higher AC than a Chain Shirt.

JaronK

EpicEvokerElf
2010-03-31, 11:00 AM
When I can afford it, I'm going for mithril Mechanus Gear (+11 AB, +2 Dex); before that, I'll be running around in full plate as soon as I can make myself a suit. I just found some breastplate in last week's adventure, and the cleric and I will argue about who gets it (we both have chainmail now, which I crafted).

I really can't fathom why I'd every want a mithril chain shirt; my AC would be higher in scale mail. My Dex is only +2

EDIT: Nevermind, forgot the cleric's a gnome. MINE! (Or I'll sell it to make some more cash for my full plate, as it won't help me at all.)

ericgrau
2010-03-31, 11:14 AM
AC is expected to come mostly from gear rather than class features, so any feats that boost it put you above the norm. Gear alone typically forces the enemies to roll a 15 or higher to hit, regardless of level. All you need is armor, shield, ring of protection, amulet of natural armor, and the ioun stone. Get 3-4 more AC from feats or class features and you'll be virtually unhittable physically. A feat here, a dip there, an exotic armor as mentioned, and you're good to go. Then you can focus on damage and saves to be an unstoppable source of pain.

Dwarves can tumble in medium and heavy armor because medium and heavy armor doesn't reduce their movement speed. So there really is almost no point to getting light armor.


You do get AB and damage too; completely dumping these is a trap. There is no such thing as a tank in standard D&D; maybe you could do it with splatbooks but this isn't necessary. Most classes can defend themselves, and it's almost impossible for any single player to withstand all of the enemy's attacks. Combats are so fast that even moving to the back row is a huge waste of time, especially if you give away time to your enemy with a free attack. No, your defense should be so that you can deal damage for as long as possible before stopping to heal or flee. I wouldn't fight defensively most of the time, unless you are in serious danger.

EpicEvokerElf
2010-03-31, 11:24 AM
So your suggestion for that would be...?

Optimator
2010-03-31, 02:39 PM
Get Shield Charge and Shield Slam, along with Improved Trip. Now when you charge and hit you beat the snot out of what you hit.

And if you want heavy armor, dip two levels in Crusader. Grab Shield Block while you're at it.

JaronK

I remember when you made the thread about the two shield-using characters. I was about to suggest the same thing. Charging someone while forcing a trip, a daze (or was it stun?) while having a good armor class and bonuses to damage and the ability to Shield Block and Shield Counter is the heat. One of my favorite characters. I lost the link to those two builds though.

Optimator
2010-03-31, 02:41 PM
Found it! The D&D Smiteadin (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1532.0)

EpicEvokerElf
2010-03-31, 04:04 PM
While hitting people with shields for obscenely optimized amounts of damage with ubercharger/tripping builds is all well and good, it's not what I'm trying to do with this character. I could try some of the tricks involved, but after too many my DM will crucify me. I'm not going to use a reach weapon, for example. I may do most of the stuff outlined here, but not as cheesily as I'm being urged to.

Imp. Shield Bash/Shield Slam/Shield Charge won't be operational until level 7, and would consume all my feats until then (except the 5th-level warblade bonus, which is going to be Combat Reflexes). Adding Combat Expertise/Improved Trip/Greater Trip (split combat feats from PF) delays that part until around 13. However, I'm going to want to grab Martial Study/Stance a few times to pick up Thicket of Blades, Shield Block, and Defensive Rebuke at some point (unless I can wait to get them through the PrC).

So... Since I haven't actually used Stone Power, I think I can change it for Shield Specialization or Combat Expertise pretty easily (opening up the TC Rabid Wolf Strike with Expertise for 2 to offset the AC penalty completely for only half the attack bonus).

Build (lower levels, tentative):
Warblade 1: Shield Specialization, Stone Bones, Steel Wind, Charging Minotaur Stance: Punishing Stance (Gear: Chainmail, Dwarven Waraxe, Heavy Shield - I'll add spikes later)
Warblade 2: Better armor (full plate? maybe, since it's homemade), Action Before Thought
Warblade 3: Combat Expertise, Emerald Razor, Mountain Hammer or Wall of Blades (maybe some magic gear?)
Warblade 4: Stance: no idea... Any actually worth taking?, retrain Stone Bones to Mountain Hammer (or other suggested at L3)
Warblade 5: Improved Shield Bash, Bonus Feat: Combat Reflexes, Iron Heart Surge (or White Raven Tactics, replace Stone Bones with Leading the Attack, or Insightful Strike)
Warblade 6: Nothing...
Warblade 7: Shield Charge, maneuver (haven't actually planned them this far yet)
Defender 1: DS maneuvers! (retrain one previous as well)
Defender 2: Shield Slam
Defender 3: Thicket of Blades!
Defender 4: Imp. Trip
Defender 5: DS Maneuver, retrain, Greater Trip or Robilar's Gambit
...
etc.

This seems a bit slow for acquisition of nifty abilities; suggestions to fix that? I'm tempted to ask to use the Shaky flaw (-2 on ranged attacks); he's letting me be proficient with simple ranged weapons, but I don't foresee using them much if I can help it. I'm rethinking the stance I took at the beginning of this post regarding shield monkeying nonsense; if I can pull it off, I think I will (no reach, though).

ericgrau
2010-03-31, 04:31 PM
So your suggestion for that would be...?
For what? Getting a good offense to combine with your defense? Well, AC is cheap so there's no sense in sacrificing AB to get it most of the time. Though combat expertise has situational uses if you're taking a bit of punishment yet you know you can still hit the enemy's AC even with the penalty. For AB, damage and so on there's strength, boots of speed, and weapon enchantments. I'd get the weapon enchantments that add d6's of damage rather than enhancement bonuses. Plus whatever damage bonuses you can get from warblade.

3 feats seems like an awful lot just for charges and stuns now and then. You need TWF to fight with both your axe and shield in the same round, and with the -2 to hit (-4 if you use a heavy shield instead of light), and cost of enchanting two weapons, you'll only reduce your damage unless you have some kind of bonus damage or special effect per attack. Even now I believe you're facing a -10 on your bashes because presumably your shield is armed in your off hand, and a heavy shield is a one handed weapon not a light weapon. See: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#twoWeaponFighting . There's a section on shield bashing at the end.

Lycanthromancer
2010-03-31, 05:03 PM
While hitting people with shields for obscenely optimized amounts of damage with ubercharger/tripping builds is all well and good, it's not what I'm trying to do with this character. I could try some of the tricks involved, but after too many my DM will crucify me. I'm not going to use a reach weapon, for example. I may do most of the stuff outlined here, but not as cheesily as I'm being urged to.There's absolutely nothing 'cheesy' about reach, unless you've got 70+ feet of it going on.

What the hell?

EpicEvokerElf
2010-03-31, 09:15 PM
Not on its own, no; but when combined with tripping, the ability to generate AoOs from almost anything (Thicket of Blades, Defensive Rebuke, Robilar's Gambit, more Tripping), and the only sort of reach weapon anyone seems to use in builds (the ones you can use against adjacent opponents), you get something that stinks worse than limburger. I'd consider a dwarven urgrosh or double spear (RoS) as a backup weapon, or possibly a primary weapon with Stand Still and Thicket of Blades, but never a chain with this character.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm looking for an effective, lightly optimized character, but that the primary purpose is to serve the RP intent. I can't see this character using TWF with a shield bash (BTW, Ericgrau, Agile Shield Fighter [PHII] allows use of a shield bash for TWF with only -2/-2, even for a heavy shield[IIRC]) or swinging a spiked chain, but I'd like to make him as good as I can at holding his ground and keeping his friends safe.

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-31, 09:20 PM
Not on its own, no; but when combined with tripping, the ability to generate AoOs from almost anything (Thicket of Blades, Defensive Rebuke, Robilar's Gambit, more Tripping), and the only sort of reach weapon anyone seems to use in builds (the ones you can use against adjacent opponents), you get something that stinks worse than limburger. I'd consider a dwarven urgrosh or double spear (RoS) as a backup weapon, or possibly a primary weapon with Stand Still and Thicket of Blades, but never a chain with this character.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm looking for an effective, lightly optimized character, but that the primary purpose is to serve the RP intent. I can't see this character using TWF with a shield bash (BTW, Ericgrau, Agile Shield Fighter [PHII] allows use of a shield bash for TWF with only -2/-2, even for a heavy shield[IIRC]) or swinging a spiked chain, but I'd like to make him as good as I can at holding his ground and keeping his friends safe.

What level of optimization does your table generally play? Because a decent(using the feats you described) tripping build is not generally cheese, just fairly powerful.

EpicEvokerElf
2010-04-02, 01:24 PM
New group; the DM is fairly optimization-conscious and one player has an elf psion with the Young template (PF Bestiary). On the other hand, we have a gnome cleric with the Healing domain who's essentially a healbot and a human rogue played by a first-timer (I'm helping her with the character quite a bit, but it's nothing absurd by any standards). 5d6 ability scores, so it's a high-powered game... Lots of splatbooks, though we're recrunching things for PF as the need arises.

I suppose I'm overreacting again to some extent; apologies if I snapped at anyone, which I've been known to do, especially on the old WotC boards. But I don't want to be so ridiculous that the game loses its fun, which it tends to quickly when I play my usual characters (the reason I'm not playing a caster this time 'round).

The concern I have is that often I'd be taking a currently useless or bad feat to get something later, but I think this is probably unfounded. Combat Expertise probably won't actually see play, for example, but Improved and Greater Trip certainly will. Likewise, with Thicket of Blades and friends, 2 more AoOs per round from Combat Reflexes will be a tangible benefit. Improved Shield Bash is actually the biggest offender, in my mind, because I'll probably never make a shield bash (except occasionally when I've got Shield Charge/Slam). The whole idea seems a little out-of-character without those feats, not to mention suboptimal at first (although if I get them early it will make for a really nasty Charging Minotaur maneuver).

EpicEvokerElf
2010-04-03, 08:52 PM
Essentially, I don't want to take a feat that I can't use when I get it (or that would be mechanically stupid to use). I'd rather not take, say, Imp. Shield Bash, because without Shield Charge and Shield Slam, I'm not going to be making any shield bashes 'cause my axe does more damage (and no, I'm not going to make one of those shield-only builds; this isn't an optimization exercise, it's a character). I'm also contemplating Block Arrows (HoB) - looks nifty, and it's always useful.

Does anyone have a suggestion for when to take what, so as to get the most mileage out of my feats and not be stuck with anything useless for too long?

EpicEvokerElf
2010-04-04, 06:59 PM
Gods, triple post... tempted to repost, since I have a more concrete idea of what I'm asking for now.

I don't think I'm going to use the shield charge/slam feat chain, simply because I can't see myself bashing very much (certainly not TWF, not without fighter bonus feats). It's really cool, and opens up some powerful optimization possibilities, but it's not what this character would do, nor does it seem useful at all levels. A spiked bashing shield (with Strongarm Bracers) would make my axe useless (it'd deal 3d6, vs. 2d8 for a waraxe with the bracers, or 2d6 vs. 1d10 without them), and using nothing but a shield just seems far too silly for a serious character. Feel free to disagree with me on that, but I'm going to be hard to persuade.

(I'd still look into Defending shield spikes, but they're more expensive than just increasing the shield's bonus until high levels.)

Without Imp. Shield Bash/Shield Charge/Shield Slam, I've got a few more free feats... Where would these best be spent? Weapon Focus and the like are pretty weak, and static. Imp. Crit. is similarly uninspiring, especially with a weapon that normally only crits on a 20. Vital Strike looks like an easy way to make standard-action maneuvers pack a bit more punch, but when should I take it?

Feats, tentatively:
1: Flaw: Shaky (-2 ranged attacks), Feats: Combat Expertise, Shield Specialization
2: -
3: Improved Trip
4: Combat Reflexes (Wbd bonus feat moved down from 5th to avoid standard feat, new stance from 4th moved up to 5)
5: Shield Ward
7: Greater Trip
9: Improved Critical? Vital Strike?
11: ?
13: Robilar's Gambit
15: Defensive Sweep
17: ?
19: ?

When I can afford it, I'm going to be wearing Mechanus Gear armor (1,750 gp, but only 583 to craft - probably level 2 or 3). Mithril as soon as I can afford it as well (adds 3,000 to crafting cost, or 9,000 to base price); my Dex is only +2 anyway. Until I've got something nicer, I'm sticking with chainmail - nothing short of full plate will actually improve my AC anyway.

Are there any ways, short of raising one's Dex with Combat Reflexes, to get more AoOs per round?