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Abaddon87
2010-03-28, 07:11 PM
So Im playing my first Gestalt character and I want to play a roaming sword master type, striking down opponents with a single strike. The build will look like this:

Lawful Evil Human
Wizard 10 / Swiftblade 10 and Warblade 10 / Iaijutsu Master 10

Looking to make a mobile heavy hitter who can move in and out of combat to bring his iaijutsu strike to bear as often as possible. The other player in my party is a Evil Half Giant Psion / Rouge / Fighter who fights with a over-sized spear and enlarges himself for lots of reach and AoO. Its just the two of us as far as players and we have three hirelings (two fighters and one ranger). We are playing through modules for the game itself.

Any suggestions on items/enchantments for my sword master? I know there are at least two enchantments that deal with upping Initiative but Im not sure if they are needed with all the "INT and DEX to Initiative" abilities ill have from both Swiftblade AND Iaijutsu Master :smallcool:.

Also, were using a 32 point buy and this class is pretty needy for ability scores. How should I arrange my stats? What should I dump? WIS probably?

Any tips or pointers for equipment/feats/stats/etc would be much appreciated :smallbiggrin:

Flickerdart
2010-03-28, 07:13 PM
Can't run a PrC on both sides of a Gestalt.

Yuki Akuma
2010-03-28, 07:14 PM
The most you can get is 10 levels of one PrC and 5 of the other. Can't do 10 of both.

Abaddon87
2010-03-28, 07:17 PM
So as I said... First Gestalt character and I'm not up on all the rules. Given this, how should I build my sword master?

Flickerdart
2010-03-28, 07:21 PM
Wizard 5/Swiftblade 10/Wizard 5//Warblade 15/Iaijutsu Master 5 is a fair approximation of what you have. You could let the Warblade side soak up some RHD and LA, and play a fancy race.

Eldariel
2010-03-28, 07:26 PM
Wizard 5/Swiftblade 10/Wizard 5//Warblade 15/Iaijutsu Master 5 is a fair approximation of what you have. You could let the Warblade side soak up some RHD and LA, and play a fancy race.


I think Wizard 5/Swiftblade 10/Wizard 5//Warblade 11/Wizard 4/Iaijutsu Master 5 is what's desired here. Full casting, 7th level maneuvers, Strike from the Void.

Flickerdart
2010-03-28, 07:29 PM
Hm, punctuating the Swiftblade dead casting levels with Wizard is certainly a more powerful idea than mine. I was under the impression that he wanted more swords than spells though.

FishAreWet
2010-03-28, 07:33 PM
Hm, punctuating the Swiftblade dead casting levels with Wizard is certainly a more powerful idea than mine. I was under the impression that he wanted more swords than spells though.

You don't really lose any Sword.

Abaddon87
2010-03-28, 07:50 PM
The only reason wizard is even on the list is because it gives access to Haste for Swiftblade and it uses INT as the casting stat. INT gets great bonus uses from Warblade and Iaijutsu Master plus skill points for Iaijutsu Focus. Im not to keen on a LA race. Human is fine with me, the extra feat is a must. I really dont care about total optimization/own you in one round Mr Greatwurm Gold Dragon. I just want a trained sword fighter focusing on the Katana who is almost always going first in combat and can down the most powerful foe if need be with a single draw of his sword. Caster level and such are total back burner for me except to give me Haste.

To help I could say the inspiration for my character is Jin from Samurai Champloo, only with a evil twist.

Flickerdart
2010-03-28, 07:53 PM
You don't really lose any Sword.
You get a whole 'nother level of Maneuvers with Warblade 15 as opposed to Warblade 11/Wizard 4.

Eldariel
2010-03-28, 07:54 PM
The only reason wizard is even on the list is because it gives access to Haste for Swiftblade and it uses INT as the casting stat. INT gets great bonus uses from Warblade and Iaijutsu Master plus skill points for Iaijutsu Focus. Im not to keen on a LA race. Human is fine with me, the extra feat is a must. I really dont care about total optimization/own you in one round Mr Greatwurm Gold Dragon. I just want a trained sword fighter focusing on the Katana who is almost always going first in combat and can down the most powerful foe if need be with a single draw of his sword. Caster level and such are total back burner for me except to give me Haste.

To help I could say the inspiration for my character is Jin from Samurai Champloo, only with a evil twist.

Thing is, Swiftblade's level 10 ability really rewards having as high spell levels available as possible. So I definitely suggest at least one Wizard-level on the other side.

Wizard 10/Swiftblade 10//Warblade 14/Iaijutsu Master 5/Wizard 1 gets 9th level spells and maneuvers, for example. Iaijutsu Master 5 is probably all you need anyways since Strikes take your Standard Actions so the 8th level ability is unnecessary and the 10th is really nothing amazing. Just more Warblade probably serves you better. So...yeah, I'll suggest that if that's what you want. 9th level slots just really rock with Innervated Speed.

Abaddon87
2010-03-28, 08:05 PM
My experience with Time Stop is almost nill, but knowing that you cant attack or target enemies while its up makes me wonder what good the Innervated Speed really is? If Im focusing on my ability to get the jump on a foe and cut him down with a huge bonus Iaijutsu Focus strike damage on top of say a martial maneuver like Strike of Perfect Clarity, what would I use 4 rounds of Time Stop for?

Yuki Akuma
2010-03-28, 08:10 PM
Use your Wizard abilities for a change and cast a few AoE spells?

Dusk Eclipse
2010-03-28, 08:11 PM
My experience with Time Stop is almost nill, but knowing that you cant attack or target enemies while its up makes me wonder what good the Innervated Speed really is? If Im focusing on my ability to get the jump on a foe and cut him down with a huge bonus Iaijutsu Focus strike damage on top of say a martial maneuver like Strike of Perfect Clarity, what would I use 4 rounds of Time Stop for?

Time stop is mainly for buffim and doing stuff that isn't necessarily an attack ( a friend once used timestop and shapechanged into a dragon, used stoneshape to get a bould and placed it above the BBEG, falling damage won that fight. Now I am not sure if that is RAW possible, but at least that time we followed rule of cool) also it helps with battlefiend control (summons walls, etc) and in the least of the cases repositioning yourself.

Eldariel
2010-03-28, 08:18 PM
It's the best way to approach (opponents cannot use immediate action defenses nor arguably even contingencies while under it), as your Hastes are Ex you can use it while in Anti-Magic Field and this combination is pretty damn scary for most mages.

And yeah, there's the option of using a ton of area shaping magic to isolate enemies or trap them into deathcages with Maw of Chaos, Dimensional Lock and the like, Gating heavenly army to smite thy opponents, or most likely just buff yourself to high heavens with stuff like Bite of the Werebear, Greater Heroism, Girallon's Blessing + Fuse Arms, Miracle Giant Size, Greater Blink, etc. And it only spends your Swift Action since it's Haste too.

Then you ready an action to do a Strike on the round Time Stop ends, thus turning your Swift Action into another Strike (and a bunch of buffs, or nastier if you feel like it) and then you follow up with your Haste-strike (Haste was cast inside Time Stop too, obviously, unless you use Persistent [CArc] Haste from 9th level slots to keep it up all day) and Full-Round Action or Standard Action Strike + Move Action Spell/Maneuver. Obviously you moved under Time Stop too.


Note that all references to Time Stop are actually references to Innervated Speed here. The mechanics are just quite identical.

Oh, and you can set up protections for allies if they're in a bad way (with Walls and all) and reshape the battlefield to better suit your needs and such; basically, if you can't come up with use for 4 turns of uninterrupted actions in a row in combat, I don't know what to tell you.

Abaddon87
2010-03-28, 08:19 PM
Okay so the levels are something to think about. What about my Stats? With a 32 point buy and a character who needs INT, DEX, CHA, STR and CON... How should I arrange them?

I might be persuaded to look at some races other than Human. Like I said, I dont want anything to cheesy. Maybe a race that gets a nice stat bonus on one that would otherwise be dumped (like CON or STR?). Or nice synergy with either a class or the characters overall feel?

I've also got no idea for magic items other than maybe some Sandals of Jumping or whatever (for things like jumping power attack combined with iaijutsu focus strike and even a martial maneuver). Any thoughts or suggestions that stick out?

Flickerdart
2010-03-28, 08:22 PM
Time Stop is often used to trap enemies, place delayed spells and administer round/level buffs. Since you're a competent melee fighter, preventing the escape of a squishy caster before hitting them with swords is a fair tactic. You could even refluff a volley of Delayed Blast Fireballs as slashing up the guy while you were moving really fast, though you'd have to change the damage type or delay a different spell.

Eldariel
2010-03-28, 08:27 PM
Okay so the levels are something to think about. What about my Stats? With a 32 point buy and a character who needs INT, DEX, CHA, STR and CON... How should I arrange them?

I might be persuaded to look at some races other than Human. Like I said, I dont want anything to cheesy. Maybe a race that gets a nice stat bonus on one that would otherwise be dumped (like CON or STR?). Or nice synergy with either a class or the characters overall feel?

I've also got no idea for magic items other than maybe some Sandals of Jumping or whatever (for things like jumping power attack combined with iaijutsu focus strike and even a martial maneuver). Any thoughts or suggestions that stick out?

Uhm...your stats are wee bit of a problem. Generally, 4 good stats is still somewhat doable, but 5 is just hard. See if you could get Faerie Mysteries Initiate [Dragon Magazine Whatever] to get Int to HP and dump Con; that would help out a lot and would enable some of the Elf-races to help with the others too.

Good news is that with magic, you can buff them skyhigh. But ehm, you'll have to make do with some weaker Strike from the Void; +5 is eminently doable (don't forget Belt of Magnificience). See Stat X to Y bonus (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=320889) for various ways of mitigating your stat requirements.


If you can't mitigate need for any stat, even just 14/14/14/14/8/14 is a 30pb. Getting 16 in your casting stat is already 34pb; you could cut to 12 Charisma for 14/14/14/16/8/12. This would most likely end up at about (depending on how many stat boost tomes you get, or if you pay the iron price by casting the actual Wish-spell; you certainly have the capability) 22/20/20/32/14/20.

With Polymorph/Shapechange, you could of course mitigate the need for physicals in the first place, but doesn't sound like you want that. Though turning into humanoid forms is all fine, of course.

Note that 22 Str is pretty doable as you can use plenty of magic effects to improve your physical capabilities (Bite alone gets you to 28 Str and Giant Size would place you at 60 already, though of course, it has the side effect of making you Colossal; if you want more subtle power, Fuse Arms + Girallon's Blessing is +4 untyped to your Str).

Abaddon87
2010-03-28, 08:33 PM
So lest just say with a "INT to HP" feat I dump CON and WIS is already dumped. STR is probably a back seat stat compared to DEX, INT and CHA right? Should I prioritize them as INT, DEX, CHA, STR or switch around STR and CHA?

One other thought. Would Beguiler be a fair replacement for Wizard since I'm only looking for Haste and Beguiler gets armor use without ASF?

Eldariel
2010-03-28, 09:14 PM
So lest just say with a "INT to HP" feat I dump CON and WIS is already dumped. STR is probably a back seat stat compared to DEX, INT and CHA right? Should I prioritize them as INT, DEX, CHA, STR or switch around STR and CHA?

One other thought. Would Beguiler be a fair replacement for Wizard since I'm only looking for Haste and Beguiler gets armor use without ASF?

Beguiler misses out on Wizard-buffs so you'd need tons of Str to make that work out. Besides, you'd need 18 levels of casting to get the 9th level slots. Also, Armor? Iaijutsu Master's Canny Defense adds your Int to AC only when you have no Armor; wearing any Armor beyond Mage Armor is gonna lower your AC. Also, did I mention you can cast Mage Armor (or Greater or even Luminous Armor [BoED] if you want real high AC)?

Int is your absolute priority. Hell, there are even tricks to control your body through spells to use Int for attacks and damage. But even without that, Int gets you AC, spell slots, Reflex-save, damage, tripping, save DCs, etc. You add Int to so many things you'd be a fool to have it as anything but your absolute highest score.

Secondary should be Charisma and Strength; they should be about even. Charisma is slightly higher priority since while it doesn't help you hit, it does help you get sick damage out of each hit, and it adds to your Initiative. It's also useful with some spells and such. Strength, on the other hand, helps you hit. And gives you damage. The only reason you don't need it as much is because magical effects can be used to boost your Strength far beyond its capability to boost your other stats.

Con should be base 14 if you can't replace it. You gain a nice bunch of HP that way and good base values for Concentration (which you can use for a whole ton of stuff, and want really high; don't be above buying Competence-items or such if available as Con can be used to make enemies flat-footed for your Iaijutsu and of course, simply to deal 2xcheck result in damage; with some buffs that can, especially combined with Iaijutsu, be a sick strike - oh, and you can protect yourself from bothersome spell effects with it too).

Finally, Dex adds to AC and Initiative too so it's a nice stat to compound your Int and Cha, but it's worse than both so it takes a slightly lower priority.


Frankly? The 14/14/14/16/8/12 spread is perfectly decent. You could cut 2 Str for 2 Charisma, and it might be better that way. But the base idea there is what you want. Remember that on level 20, your magic is able to make up for stats a lot. As long as you're willing to use it. With Int to HP, Con can drop to 8, and Cha or Str can go up to 16.

Abaddon87
2010-03-28, 09:19 PM
This is a lot to think about. Thanks for all the great help and tips!

TheMadLinguist
2010-03-29, 02:05 AM
Factotum is king of gestalt and iaijutsu. See if you can get factotum 8 if at all possible.

If you do get faerie mysteries initiate, becoming undead is awesome.

Kaiyanwang
2010-03-29, 04:31 AM
Maybe I miss something but.. isn't iaijustu focus a class skill for iaijutsu master only?

If you go warblade, you cannot cap it at best...


Time Stop is often used to trap enemies, place delayed spells and administer round/level buffs. Since you're a competent melee fighter, preventing the escape of a squishy caster before hitting them with swords is a fair tactic. You could even refluff a volley of Delayed Blast Fireballs as slashing up the guy while you were moving really fast, though you'd have to change the damage type or delay a different spell.

You could even use spells for hit-and run tactics appearing and disappearing, controlling enemies and attacking flat-footed one.

PhoenixRivers
2010-03-29, 05:03 AM
Maybe I miss something but.. isn't iaijustu focus a class skill for iaijutsu master only?

If you go warblade, you cannot cap it at best...

If you have even 1 level of Iaijutsu master, you can max it in any class. You just need to pay double skill points to do so in classes where it's not a listed class skill.

Roc Ness
2010-03-29, 05:28 AM
Factotum is king of gestalt and iaijutsu. See if you can get factotum 8 if at all possible.

If you do get faerie mysteries initiate, becoming undead is awesome.

Don't need that if you have Swiftblade 9. Swiftblade 9 blows the factotum right out of the water.

Although a one level Factotum dip would be a way to get Iaijutsu Focus

Kaiyanwang
2010-03-29, 05:33 AM
If you have even 1 level of Iaijutsu master, you can max it in any class. You just need to pay double skill points to do so in classes where it's not a listed class skill.


That's my point - can you max it and have enough skill points? But I realize that the PC should have enough int to put points in other relevant skills, too.

Yuki Akuma
2010-03-29, 05:36 AM
Be a human and take Able Learner.

Problem solved.

TheMadLinguist
2010-03-29, 05:55 AM
Don't need that if you have Swiftblade 9. Swiftblade 9 blows the factotum right out of the water.

Four standard actions in the first round is better than two actions per round for the next three.

Roc Ness
2010-03-29, 05:59 AM
Four standard actions in the first round is better than two actions per round for the next three.

Nah, the maximum actions in one round with Factotum is 3 Standards and one Move, as you can't have three standards normally. You could get three move actions, though.

Flickerdart
2010-03-29, 08:08 AM
Be a human and take Able Learner.

Problem solved.
That means he can't put many points into Iaijutsu Focus until 15th level or so anyway. A Factotum dip at 1st level for a pile of skillpoints and all skills as class skills might benefit this build a lot.

Abaddon87
2010-03-29, 08:41 AM
I just ordered Dungeonscape a few days ago and will be looking into the Factotum class. I assume it should take the place of Warblade at first level?

I think my build looks something like this now:

Wiz 10 / Swiftblade 10 // Factotum 1 / Warblade 14 / Iaijutsu Master 5

The Factotum should help me have a high skill point score in things like Tumble, Bluff, Hide/Move Silently and Iaijutsu Focus which I can use to maximize the Iaijutsu attacks right? Should I spend some feats to make Feint an immediate action so I can Flatfooted my target? I know the IF only works when you draw a Katana and attack in the same action and as far as cheese goes, a feat that lets me sheath my sword after every attack is a little much... I know the trick with the gnomish razor but I'm set on Katana. Would it be fair to tool a Quick Sheath feat that lets me sheath my katana at the end of each round? That doesnt seem overpowered or cheesy.

Since I wont have access to 9th lvl maneuvers for Warblade, should I add a level of Shadow Dancer to get Hide in Plane Sight? That would give me some great options for skirmishing and IF strikes every round right?

Again, thanks to all for the great tips and help!

Flickerdart
2010-03-29, 09:03 AM
You could, alternately, simply carry four katanas, drawing and dropping each one in turn on a full attack, so long as you figure out a way of picking them all up in the next round. A bag of +1 katanas won't break the bank that much, and you can Greater Magic Weapon them to be +5.

Yuki Akuma
2010-03-29, 09:16 AM
Take Chain Spell so you can get them all to +5 with one casting.

Abaddon87
2010-03-29, 10:23 AM
I'll probably carry two katanas and a short sword to keep the feel of my character.