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View Full Version : Point-buy or class-based character advancement? [Design]



Maerok
2010-03-28, 09:18 PM
I'm working on a MUD right now (it runs on telnet but there's nothing to look yet) and one of the questions I ask myself at this point is whether characters should advance by classes or by a point-buy system. Either is really fine with me, but each seems to offer its own advantages and drawbacks from a design stand-point and I can't make the final decision.

Classes (D20, etc.):
+Easier for new people to pick up as they can trust the system to work toward keeping them on the same level as anyone else at that point
+Can be more readily balanced... usually... at least you can separate the 'megadeath ability' and the 'use megadeath abilities ten times a second ability' into different classes
+You know exactly what a character will have at their disposal
-I'm too choosy, nit-picky and worrisome to define the classes in a way that is sane for me or I end up making every combination of abilities and stats and then name them based off that
-Advanced players can't experiment with different combos that would really define the character they are looking for
-Been done a lot

Points (Shadowrun, Nobilis, Exalted, White Wolf games, etc.):
+Players can mix and match powers to their heart's content
+If they pick right, they don't end up with things they won't use
+I don't have to worry about defining classes
+In theory, as long as the effectiveness:point ratio is constant for all abilities then everyone should be on an even keel
-Sometimes the sum of several abilities are greater then the sum of their parts which makes balancing an issue
-New players will probably spend all their points on incompatible things and end up with a useless arrangement of abilities
-Massive playtesting to ensure balance of abilities relative to cost
-Bookkeeping/tracking on the part of players

Of course, I could combine the two systems:
-Characters advance by class but get an allowance of spending points for universal abilities
-Use a point buy system but you can either buy several abilities a la carte or you can buy a level in a class with a preassembled selection of abilities (maybe the class option ends up with a 5% discount on the net price)

What I've seen from other MUDs are predominantly class-based systems.

holywhippet
2010-03-28, 09:27 PM
You could use something like the The Dark Eye system. You choose a class and that class can learn any set of skills. However, the more unrelated the skills are to that class the more it costs to advance them. Points are earned as you adventure rather than as you level up so you can spend them at any time.

Maerok
2010-03-28, 09:59 PM
Ooh, I like that.

Godskook
2010-03-28, 10:18 PM
Missed one. The "Use it to learn it" system, used in Final Fantasy 2 exclusively, in FF 7 for Materia, and a few others.
+Easier to balance abilities. Abandoned abilities are easily trained at higher levels because skill level affects xp gain.
+Feels 'logical'. Want to learn something? Spend time and you do. Simple.
-Works really poorly on base statistics, for a multitude of reasons. "Use" becomes poorly defined being one, and for another, a poor base stat is far more painful to 'discover' you need the hard way, especially things like CON.
-Leads to more Homogenized characters, as everyone has 'equal' access.

D&D could use it for the certain otherwise poor feats, like weapon focus and skill focus, to make them better. That's......not a bad idea, actually.

Maerok
2010-03-28, 11:35 PM
If you were to use that DnD you'd have to track down the number of uses that the player makes of each ability.

I like it, but for how I have the stat system planned out it wouldn't work because of the 'poorly defined' bits that are involved. For instance, all of DnD's skills would be treated as one attribute ("Expertise") in this system. It's not realistic, but the characters get a sort of super-synergy hand-wavey simplification. However, this could also work by incrementing the stat by 0.X% every time they have to roll Expertise or Attack or whatever.

Most of the abilities are also 'have' or 'have nots' though I may give most of them improved effects if you have the same ability multiple times.

WalkingTarget
2010-03-28, 11:49 PM
The only example I know of offhand that uses the Use-it-to-learn-it is Chasium's Basic Roleplaying (aka BRP - the system used in Call of Cthulhu). You put points into various skills at character generation to decide what your character is good at (roll-under percentile system). During the course of every adventure, if you succeed at a non-trivial roll in that skill you get a chance to improve it a bit at the end.

Of course, I've only used it for CoC games, which is not at all appropriate for a D&D-style adventure in terms of power level. I know there are other games that use the system that might be better to look at (the Stormbringer one is patterned after Moorcock's Elric books, but it's out of print).

Temotei
2010-03-29, 01:36 AM
The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion does it. I'm pretty sure the ones before it do as well, but I could be mistaken. I've never played any of the others.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-29, 01:49 AM
The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion does it. I'm pretty sure the ones before it do as well, but I could be mistaken. I've never played any of the others.

They all did. And they all had a trick to power level the skills. Morrowind had Alchemy abuse, Oblivion has corner-walking, and I'm not familiar with the other two games to know the names of their loopholes (but I know they had at least one).

Deca
2010-03-29, 01:52 AM
How about a combination of class and use-it-to-learn-it?

Using a skill gives you higher ranks in it but you can also take a class which opens up new exclusive skills for you to use and you can only advance certain skills beyond a given point if you have a certain class. Also, you can level up class levels which can increase selected skills as well.

DMUD uses something like that and it's very nice.

PinkysBrain
2010-03-29, 02:24 AM
Skills? Aren't MUD's basically "bash it" "loot it" as far as mechanics go? :)

I think non level based point buy (ie. no progression based caps on point investments in abilities) will have a lot of trouble with hyper specialization being the optimal (but boring) choice in a computer game ... something like M&M should work fine though.

Totally Guy
2010-03-29, 02:27 AM
Best I've seen is lifepath generation from the Burning Wheel system.

You pick from a set of lifepaths that represent a few years of your character's past.


Hedge Wizard (Villager Setting)
Time:8 yrs
Resources:24
Stats: +1 M,P
Lead to: Peasant, Citydweller, Outcast (This means he can take further paths in the City or as an outcast but his next lifepath can't be a Noble lifepath or a Soldier lifepath for example.)
Skills: 7 pts: Sorcery, Enchanting, Alchemy, Obscure History, Pest-wise, Fool-wise
Traits: 2 pts: Impressive Hat, Never a Moment of Peace
Notes: Requires Wizard's Apprentice, Neophyte Sorcerer, or Arcane Devotee.

So the above lifepath gives access to some rare skills like Alchemy and Sorcery cheaply, it gives a stat boost to a mental stat and a physical but it requires you to have already taken an apprentice type path previously.

The GM limits power by saying "4 lifepaths only".

In addition to this you also get a life history of the character as you make him. The system uses this "Use to Learn" concept from that point onwards.

The most intuitive Use to Learn system I've seen is Mouse Guard. In that system you log whether you succeeded or failed a test of your skill. If your skill is rated "X" you need X successful uses of the skill and X-1 failed uses of the skill (but it has to be within the context of the story, it has to have risk).

Maerok
2010-03-29, 04:08 PM
Mouse Guard (and Burning Wheel too) are really nice. It's a shame I don't use them more often.

These are all fine suggestions. And as for a "MUD", I guess I'm using the term loosely - it's more of an online text-based adventure set in a dystopic border-plane between Earth and the forces Above, Below, and Beyond.

Kurald Galain
2010-03-29, 04:57 PM
I would go for point-based, if only because class-based MUDs are overly common. Anything original is an extra reason for players to try your game.

Subotei
2010-03-29, 05:11 PM
My two faves are the BRP model already mentioned (CoC, Runequest D100, Stormbringer etc) and the Warhammer FRP class system - class based but its not so much pick and mix as DnD 3.X - you choose a base class and can spin off into related classes from there if you meet the conditions - kinda prestige class in DnD terms. That gets rid of my pet hate with DnD where you just pick a 'dip' into so-and-so cos it gets you a cool ability that level, without reference to what you are and what you've experienced.