Spiked-chain trippy nonsense.

[TroubleBrewing]

I'm building a spiked chain tripper. (just in case you missed the title.)

It's a 20th level battle-royal style melee, in a campaign with no psionic characters, no tome of battle, but every other 3.5 resource. 32 point-buy, as well.

So far, I've got a Lolth-Touched (MMIV) Half-Minotaur (DM313) with (at 3rd level so far) stats as follows: 28, 12, 22, 8, 12, 10.

I want to work in the "Dungeon-crasher" variant (Dungeonscape), as well as the Whirling Frenzy variant (UA), but I'm not sure how to put all of this together. Plus, are there any prestige classes that enhance the spiked chain abilities? (I know about exotic weapon master, but I'm reeeeaaallly trying to avoid it. From what I understand, it's sub-optimal. If I'm wrong, please correct me on this.)

[Tinydwarfman]

I'm building a spiked chain tripper. (just in case you missed the title.)

It's a 20th level battle-royal style melee, in a campaign with no psionic characters, no tome of battle, but every other 3.5 resource. 32 point-buy, as well.

So far, I've got a Lolth-Touched (MMIV) Half-Minotaur (DM313) with (at 3rd level so far) stats as follows: 28, 12, 22, 8, 12, 10.

I want to work in the "Dungeon-crasher" variant (Dungeonscape), as well as the Whirling Frenzy variant (UA), but I'm not sure how to put all of this together. Plus, are there any prestige classes that enhance the spiked chain abilities? (I know about exotic weapon master, but I'm reeeeaaallly trying to avoid it. From what I understand, it's sub-optimal. If I'm wrong, please correct me on this.)

Are you really set on being a melee tripper? A 20th level arena will be dominated (sometimes literally) by casters. A melee fighter won't even be able to touch a caster with the amount of optimization you are using.

[TroubleBrewing]

Right, forgot to mention: it's a zero-caster arena. That isn't to say that no magic is allowed: classes that grant spells/day, spells known, or invocations are off-limits.

(Backstory: a friend and I were sitting around wondering who would murder who in an arena, one thing led to another, and here we stand.)

[*.*.*.*]

Right, forgot to mention: it's a zero-caster arena. That isn't to say that no magic is allowed: classes that grant spells/day, spells known, or invocations are off-limits.

(Backstory: a friend and I were sitting around wondering who would murder who in an arena, one thing led to another, and here we stand.)

Ubercharging is probably better than tripping

But I've been wrong before

[Dusk Eclipse]

Question, how are you planing on combining dungeon crasher and triping? either way if you go tripping I suggest becoming a AoO machine, get as many reach extenders as you can (Willing deformity tall, abberant reach, etc) pump your dex to fuel you AoO and get Robilar's gambit, they try to hit you? they AaO'ed in the face. Also I might suggest being a goliath barbarian to get mountain rage ACF and get another increase in size when you rage.

Hope that helps

[Tinydwarfman]

Ubercharging is probably better than tripping

But I've been wrong before

A well built tripper will lockdown the ubercharger. Just never become flat footed and you are set.

[TroubleBrewing]

Question, how are you planing on combining dungeon crasher and triping?


It works surprisingly well. The bull rush attempt knocks them back 10 ft, then when they try to stand from prone, I AoO them, and knock them down again. It allows me to set off a chain of "sit down, you're rockin' the boat" lines.

[Claudius Maximus]

AoO's take place before the action that provokes them, so you can't trip someone attempting to stand up, since they're already prone when you get that attack. On the bright side, you get +4 to hit them on standing AoO's.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

You don't really need to keep the enemy from standing up anyway. You just normal AoO the enemy for standing up and then trip once they try to approach you again.

I assume incarnum is nixed as well, but what might instead be an issue for you is a character with UMD+wands+scrolls replicating a wizard. If this is allowed I'd at least spend some WBL on a rod of cancellation (or three), winged boots, and maybe a third eye conceal.

[TroubleBrewing]

Spells in general are frowned upon. We had a guy suggest a scroll-using rogue, but we nixed it. The whole point of this arena is to play a whole bunch of optimized martial builds and variants against each other.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Flying is a must IMO I personally like wings of flying but you might consider them a bit expensive (70 something K IIRC).

Also a sourece of haste is a great option, I believe there was a ring of continous haste somewhere.

[Eldariel]

Charger sucks without PA (though Mounted Charger is fairly solid still; 3x damage is solid) - and in arena use, it's almost always denied - lockdown is a start but what you really want is:
- Elusive Target: With PA out of the picture, you won't be taking more than ~50-70 points of damage per hit.
- Starmantle Cloak: Halve that.
- Generic DR Item: Cut half of that out too.
- Energy Resistances of ~10 each: '{Scrubbed}
- True Neutral Alignment: Yeah.

I'd have access to both, charging capabilities and lockdown. I'd use Standstill-based Lockdown since Tripping has counters. Standstill doesn't outside +50 Reflex-save.

Improve your reach (Willing Deformity: Tall [HoH] and Aberrant Blood + Inhuman Reach [LoM]); it'll at least force opponent to invest enough in Tumble to get past you. Pity ToB is banned, otherwise you'd actually have a chance of locking people down. Anyways, yeah, Shock Trooper+Knockback is the basis of a Dungeoncrasher.

Pick natural wings from Dragonborn or something and fly crashing your oppo to ground. If you win the opposed checks, at any rate. Pack Karmic Strike and Robilar's Gambit. Can't suggest that enough. Being able to hit opponent back twice for each time he hits you makes for some truly unfair exchanges.


Boots of Speed, Belt of Battle, Amulet of Retribution, etc. - generic good 20 items and you're good to go. Oh, definitely pack Steadfast Boots for +4 vs. all the combat maneuvers; those are huge.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Something to chew on: How will you counter archers? DR is a good start, but if they have some faster form of flight than you do you're pretty boned without some other contingency.

[deuxhero]

Right, forgot to mention: it's a zero-caster arena. That isn't to say that no magic is allowed: classes that grant spells/day, spells known, or invocations are off-limits.

Spelless Wildshape Ranger/Master of Many forms is still going to dominate you (possibly literally).


You could be Magic Blooded (Dragon something LA+0 -2 wis +2 cha template) half fey 2 with the Magic in the Blood (Feat from some FR book, allows use of racial SLAs 3 times as much) and go crazy pseudo caster as SLAs aren't banned (Or go binder actually, everyone of their things falls into the rules allowed). Such a setup is typically combined with Phrenic as well, but that is banned.

[*.*.*.*]

Spelless Wildshape Ranger/Master of Many forms is still going to dominate you (possibly literally).


You could be Magic Blooded (Dragon something LA+0 -2 wis +2 cha template) half fey 2 with the Magic in the Blood (Feat from some FR book, allows use of racial SLAs 3 times as much) and go crazy pseudo caster as SLAs aren't banned (Or go binder actually, everyone of their things falls into the rules allowed). Such a setup is typically combined with Phrenic as well, but that is banned.

He should go MOMF

Divine Minion 1/MOMF10/Nature's warriorX/fist of the forest X
or
Divine Minion(bought off) /MOMF10/Planar shepard10

[marjan]

A well built tripper will lockdown the ubercharger. Just never become flat footed and you are set.

Combat reflexes will solve that. Total concealment may give you trouble though. Also against uberchargers Standstill + Hold The Line would be better. It's more likely that enemy will fail reflex save than strength check. He charges, you stop him, on your turn you hit him and move away and then repeat.

[Tinydwarfman]

Combat reflexes will solve that. Total concealment may give you trouble though. Also against uberchargers Standstill + Hold The Line would be better. It's more likely that enemy will fail reflex save than strength check. He charges, you stop him, on your turn you hit him and move away and then repeat.

Ironically, the charger's biggest advantage is stealth, and then charging from 500' away. I would suggest getting foresight somehow, that's the only thing I can think of that will prevent you from being surprised.

[marjan]

Ironically, the charger's biggest advantage is stealth, and then charging from 500' away.

Charging will give you hefty penalties to hide and move silently, so ranks in spot and listen should be able to counter that tactic. And how exactly do you get 250' speed for that charge?


I would suggest getting foresight somehow, that's the only thing I can think of that will prevent you from being surprised.

As Combat Reflexes allows to to make AoOs while flat-footed, it's not necessary. The only thing to worry about is total cover and concealment.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Some suggestions:

Why bother choosing between Charge and Trip when you can do both?

Get Power Attack, Leap Attack, and Shock Trooper. That's at least an extra 60 damage per hit. And consider how many flippin' hits you're gonna be dishing out per turn. Maybe get a one-level dip in Lion Spirit Totem Barbarian for Pounce on top of that.

So, you charge to like 20 feet and smack him for a full attack. Then he tries to move, and you trip then attack him again. Then he tries to hit you, and you get to smack him YET AGAIN. And all your Power Attack bonuses to damage are still in effect, so that's +60 damage per hit. Now, how many times have you hit him so far?

Here's another cute trick: Pyrokeneticist. It's not a caster, it doesn't cast spells. You only want a one-level dip. Why? Flame Lash. Because you can Power Attack with it, it has stupidly huge reach, and everything is a touch attack.

[*.*.*.*]

Or you could go MOMF and eat them as a dragon

[Soranar]

yeah MOMF will become something so big it'll become impossible to trip or bullrush (and it'll probably have more reach than anything else)

[Tinydwarfman]

Charging will give you hefty penalties to hide and move silently, so ranks in spot and listen should be able to counter that tactic. And how exactly do you get 250' speed for that charge?



As Combat Reflexes allows to to make AoOs while flat-footed, it's not necessary. The only thing to worry about is total cover and concealment.

Sorry, make that more like 300ft. There are a few ways of getting cheetah charges, but most of them are restricted to druids and wildshapers. You don't need to be silent after you initiate the charge, just ranks in hide before it. You get a surprise round, in which I thought you couldn't make AoO's, but apparently you can.

[Seffbasilisk]

Seeing as you're stressing the mundane, if you're going for reach and AoO's, I'm assuming that you're mostly going to be focusing on controlling the area. If psionics are allowed, I'd get Boots of Skating (keep your feet off the grond), and scatter caltrops. Tah dah! No more tumbling.

[Soranar]

Seeing as you're stressing the mundane, if you're going for reach and AoO's, I'm assuming that you're mostly going to be focusing on controlling the area. If psionics are allowed, I'd get Boots of Skating (keep your feet off the grond), and scatter caltrops. Tah dah! No more tumbling.

The fourth line of his post says no psionic, wasn't a long read...

[*.*.*.*]

yeah MOMF will become something so big it'll become impossible to trip or bullrush (and it'll probably have more reach than anything else)

See^
{Scrubbed}

[Seffbasilisk]

My apologies for substituting the simplest solution. I fell into the trap of reading a post over and over again until details go missing.

If you don't have to move, you can simply scatter caltrops willy-nilly. If you've a chance to prepare a battlefield, there are easier ways to create (more permanent) difficult terrain.

[Milskidasith]

Why not go for a hulking hurler build? I'm not sure how much they break the rules (I haven't ever checked the specifics of the build), but throwing the planet you are on at your opponents generally works out pretty well.

[Killer Angel]

Right, forgot to mention: it's a zero-caster arena. That isn't to say that no magic is allowed: classes that grant spells/day, spells known, or invocations are off-limits.


Good idea, but I see the chance for UMD and scrolls to win the day.

[TroubleBrewing]

While all of the various build suggestions are very helpful, and it's awesome that so many people are willing to put their two cents into this, it isn't exactly what I asked for. If I wanted to work in Hulking Hurler, or Master of Many Forms, I would. I don't want them here; they are all extremely strong choices, but I just don't want to turn into a dragon or throw planets. I want to trip people to death.

I've been reworking, and I've come up with a Goliath Lolth-Touched Half-Minotaur build that looks a little something like Barb2/Fight6/Exotic Weapon Master 1/War Hulk 8.

I'm thinking of cutting the War Hulk levels: the extra strength is nice, but frankly, I've got 40 base strength. With gear and tomes, I'll be in the 50's easy. After a certain point, it becomes not worth the 8 levels for 16 strength. Thoughts?

[Eldariel]

Get Power Attack, Leap Attack, and Shock Trooper. That's at least an extra 60 damage per hit. And consider how many flippin' hits you're gonna be dishing out per turn. Maybe get a one-level dip in Lion Spirit Totem Barbarian for Pounce on top of that.

So, you charge to like 20 feet and smack him for a full attack. Then he tries to move, and you trip then attack him again. Then he tries to hit you, and you get to smack him YET AGAIN. And all your Power Attack bonuses to damage are still in effect, so that's +60 damage per hit. Now, how many times have you hit him so far?

Arena: Everyone has Elusive Target. Don't bother focusing on Power Attack.

[Lycanthromancer]

Horizon tripper?

[Killer Angel]

Horizon tripper?

Saph's build is very good, but it's almost only Core. With so many splatbooks at disposal, you'd limit yourself, unless used only as a starting point.

[Flickerdart]

The Pyro lash also doesn't threaten, because it's not really a weapon, per se. 15ft reach is pretty nice, though.

[Tyger]

What about the Knock Down feat? It's 3.0 for everyone (Sword and Board) but it got upgraded to Divine only for 3.5. So depending on your interpretation, it may still be valuable. If your reach and trip ability are up there, you can get in two hits and a trip on every AoO where he can't reach you.

[Curmudgeon]

With Elusive Target (to negate Power Attack) and Steadfast Boots (Magic Item Compendium, pages 138-139), you should be in good shape against a charger. The Boots give you an attack against the charger as if you'd readied your spiked chain against a charge (normally not an option). Also note that your opponent needs line of sight to charge you, so Hide in Plain Sight (plus some way of generating concealment for those Extraordinary versions of HiPS) and lots of Hide ranks are very helpful.

[Eldariel]

What about the Knock Down feat? It's 3.0 for everyone (Sword and Board) but it got upgraded to Divine only for 3.5. So depending on your interpretation, it may still be valuable. If your reach and trip ability are up there, you can get in two hits and a trip on every AoO where he can't reach you.

It's not Divine-only; it's listed in the General Feats-section. The only reason it's in the "Divine Feats and Abilities" is because the source that makes it eligible to be included in the SRD is Deities & Demigods.

[The Glyphstone]

Get Knock-down (it's in the SRD, hidden away in the Divine rules, but it's a General Feat with no Divine-related prerequisites), and if you can, try to work 3 levels of Knight into your build (get rid of some War Hulk). Treating your entire threatened area as Difficult Terrain is excellent for a control build, even against Tumbling enemies - it's the poor-man's Thicket of Blades, but still nice.


Goliath as a base race is an excellent idea if you stack Half-Minotaur on it, especially with Mountain Rage to get Huge. Here's how I would go about it:

Lolth-Touched Half-Minotaur Human Barbarian 1/Knight 3/Fighter 6/Exotic Weapon Master 1/War Hulk 6. Lolth-touched makes you Chaotic Evil, so you lose Knight's Challenge, but you keep Bulwark of Defense. Buy a pair of Long Arm grafts from Fiend Folio for +5ft. reach, and now you qualify for the Extended Reach feat from Savage Species for another 5ft. of reach. Abberant Blood and Inhuman Reach from Lords of Madness, together, give you another 5ft. of reach. That's a natural reach of 25ft., and a spiked chain reach of 50ft.

[Lycanthromancer]

As was mentioned, you'll need some way to deal with fliers, since they can be difficult for melee.

[Tyger]

It's not Divine-only; it's listed in the General Feats-section. The only reason it's in the "Divine Feats and Abilities" is because the source that makes it eligible to be included in the SRD is Deities & Demigods.

Now that is interesting. What book did it appear in?

[Nidogg]

Cant see whats wrong with going monk and flurry of blows'ing everything! also taking firey fist from Complete divine and the HADOKEN (or chi ball) also from CD then using disarming feats (improved disarm ect) and STEALING everyones weapons. Your the unarmed master, they provoke attacks of oportunity whith their unarmed attacks and you shoot down fliers.

[The Glyphstone]

Now that is interesting. What book did it appear in?



Originally Posted by Eldariel
It's not Divine-only; it's listed in the General Feats-section. The only reason it's in the "Divine Feats and Abilities" is because the source that makes it eligible to be included in the SRD is Deities & Demigods.




Deities & Demigods


Like the other General feats there, it's non-Divine material that just happened to be printed in the Deities book, and became OGL when the book did.

[Tyger]

Like the other General feats there, it's non-Divine material that just happened to be printed in the Deities book, and became OGL when the book did.

Groovy. We houseruled it in a while back, and I am pleased to note that we weren't actually houseruling. :)

[Greenish]

Cant see whats wrong with going monk and flurry of blows'ing everything! also taking firey fist from Complete divine and the HADOKEN (or chi ball) also from CD then using disarming feats (improved disarm ect) and STEALING everyones weapons. Your the unarmed master, they provoke attacks of oportunity whith their unarmed attacks and you shoot down fliers.Or you could go commoner and throw chickens at them!

You'll have a proficiency in an actual weapon, too, how awesome is that?!

Best of all, you can max your Profession: Dirtfarmer and grow so much dirt your enemies will drown into it!!11!!!

[Lycanthromancer]

Cant see whats wrong with going monk and flurry of blows'ing everything! also taking firey fist from Complete divine and the HADOKEN (or chi ball) also from CD then using disarming feats (improved disarm ect) and STEALING everyones weapons. Your the unarmed master, they provoke attacks of oportunity whith their unarmed attacks and you shoot down fliers.Uh...You're a monk. That's what's wrong.

Seriously, seriously wrong.

Srsly.

Ooh! I know! Factotum 11/chameleon 8!

You can be an awesome melee combatant, an awesome ranged combatant, and can do everything else too! Just don't use your chameleon spellcasting and you'll be awesome.

Lots of Fonts of Inspiration FTW!

Alternately, factotum 20. Use your 19th level ability to grab 15 levels of fighter feats.

[Tinydwarfman]

Uh...You're a monk. That's what's wrong.

Seriously, seriously wrong.

Srsly.

Ooh! I know! Factotum 11/chameleon 8!

You can be an awesome melee combatant, an awesome ranged combatant, and can do everything else too! Just don't use your chameleon spellcasting and you'll be awesome.

Lots of Fonts of Inspiration FTW!

Alternately, factotum 20. Use your 19th level ability to grab 15 levels of fighter feats.

Eh? Doesn't it give you one ability? That's some questionably reading there.

[strider24seven]

Eh? Doesn't it give you one ability? That's some questionably reading there.

You use Cunning Brilliance to get the Fighter's Bonus Feats per level ability and treat your Factotum level as your fighter level. It's not that cheesy when you consider the spell Heroics.

Also, I could be wrong, but does Elusive Reflexes work when flatfooted/knocked down? If it doesn't then you trip them and then PA them into oblivion.

Also, Wings+Goliath+PA+KnockBACK(Races of Stone+Dungeoncrasher=Stupid Damage from beating your opponent into the ground. If you don't want to be a Dragonborn of Bahamut (basically your only real choice for wings here), then bashing your opponent into an Animated Tower Shield works too. It works for defense AND offense! You can also keep bullrushing your opponent out of your threatened area, gaining you stupid amounts of AoO's when he tries to charge you again. Let's see...
1 for Hold the Line, 1 for entering a threatened area, 1 for Robilar's Gambit... That's three AoO's before he hits you. And you get an extra one if he hits you for Karmic Strike.

As far as builds go... I'd say take your 6 levels of Fighter for Dungeoncrasher, 2 levels of Barbarian for Whirling Frenzy and Wolf Totem, 3 levels of Factotum for INT to trip/bullrush attempts since you have at least 13 INT for Karmic Strike, a level of Marshal for CHA to trip or bullrush attempts, a level or two of Monk for bonus feats (and nothing else, Lycanthromancer), and a level of Exotic Weapon Master for flurry. Fighter for more bonus feats. Which you desperately need.

Dungeoncrasher Fighter 10/Whirling Frenzy Wolf Totem Barbarian 2/Factotum 3/Marshal 2/Monk 2/Exotic Weapon Master 1

[Soranar]

Get Knock-down (it's in the SRD, hidden away in the Divine rules, but it's a General Feat with no Divine-related prerequisites), and if you can, try to work 3 levels of Knight into your build (get rid of some War Hulk). Treating your entire threatened area as Difficult Terrain is excellent for a control build, even against Tumbling enemies - it's the poor-man's Thicket of Blades, but still nice.


Goliath as a base race is an excellent idea if you stack Half-Minotaur on it, especially with Mountain Rage to get Huge. Here's how I would go about it:

Lolth-Touched Half-Minotaur Human Barbarian 1/Knight 3/Fighter 6/Exotic Weapon Master 1/War Hulk 6. Lolth-touched makes you Chaotic Evil, so you lose Knight's Challenge, but you keep Bulwark of Defense. Buy a pair of Long Arm grafts from Fiend Folio for +5ft. reach, and now you qualify for the Extended Reach feat from Savage Species for another 5ft. of reach. Abberant Blood and Inhuman Reach from Lords of Madness, together, give you another 5ft. of reach. That's a natural reach of 25ft., and a spiked chain reach of 50ft.

I don't think you can stack large and mountain rage

mountain rage doesn't make you gain a size category, it makes you become large, since half-minotaur makes you large to start with ...

[Critical]

Get Knock-down (it's in the SRD, hidden away in the Divine rules, but it's a General Feat with no Divine-related prerequisites), and if you can, try to work 3 levels of Knight into your build (get rid of some War Hulk). Treating your entire threatened area as Difficult Terrain is excellent for a control build, even against Tumbling enemies - it's the poor-man's Thicket of Blades, but still nice.


Goliath as a base race is an excellent idea if you stack Half-Minotaur on it, especially with Mountain Rage to get Huge. Here's how I would go about it:

Lolth-Touched Half-Minotaur Human Barbarian 1/Knight 3/Fighter 6/Exotic Weapon Master 1/War Hulk 6. Lolth-touched makes you Chaotic Evil, so you lose Knight's Challenge, but you keep Bulwark of Defense. Buy a pair of Long Arm grafts from Fiend Folio for +5ft. reach, and now you qualify for the Extended Reach feat from Savage Species for another 5ft. of reach. Abberant Blood and Inhuman Reach from Lords of Madness, together, give you another 5ft. of reach. That's a natural reach of 25ft., and a spiked chain reach of 50ft.

Throw in Willing Deformity: Tall and Inhuman Reach and get a Spiked Chain reach of 70ft. o_O And Warshaper for 80ft.

[Soranar]

Throw in Willing Deformity: Tall and Inhuman Reach and get a Spiked Chain reach of 70ft. o_O And Warshaper for 80ft.

thats also one very ugly creature

[The Glyphstone]

Throw in Willing Deformity: Tall and Inhuman Reach and get a Spiked Chain reach of 70ft. o_O And Warshaper for 80ft.

I already mentioned Inhuman Reach (and its prerequisite, Abberant Blood). Half-Minotaur makes the character Large, which makes him ineligible for Willing Deformity (Tall), since it requires Medium size.

Warshaper can be worked in though, if we use Changeling as the base race. So, a potential max reach (so far) of 30ft./60ft.

[Soranar]

I already mentioned Inhuman Reach (and its prerequisite, Abberant Blood). Half-Minotaur makes the character Large, which makes him ineligible for Willing Deformity (Tall), since it requires Medium size.

Warshaper can be worked in though, if we use Changeling as the base race. So, a potential max reach (so far) of 30ft./60ft.

at this point you need a spot check for your reach, weird

[herrhauptmann]

Bariaur? 1 HD, 1 LA I think. (manual of planes, or planar handbook, I always get them mixed up)
5x5 square, but large sized.
An entry for one of the inevitables states that it's Centaur-shaped body lets it qualify for mounted combat feats without needing ranks in ride.
If you carry that through to it's conclusion, then any tauric shaped creature can get those mounted combat feats.
Now you're large sized for better tripping.
Your weapon damage has gone up a level.
You have enough class levels to take Tripping + Charging.
AND, you can combine the leapattack shocktrooper build, with the mounted combat build. Unfortunately, that'll probably require a little more Fighter than you want, because you'll need a LOT of feats.
3 for basic ubercharger. PA, LA, Shocktrooper
3 for tripper Combat Expertise, Imp Trip, EWP
X Mounted charger. Really don't remember the basics of that build, but it needs a valorous lance for double charge damage.

[The Glyphstone]

If we're going for a Charging emphasis over a reach/battlefield control emphasis, don't forget to squeeze in Cavalier levels if you can...Deadly Charge and Unstoppable Charge for even more ridiculous multiplication.

[herrhauptmann]

I know, my suggestion is a shift away from the 50-80 ft reach people were working with.
But I think it's about as valid a starting point as half minotaur human. Lose a little in the way of reach, but gives you a lot of charging. Could be enough to throw people off. I charge and power attack for 10. For +60 damage.

I guess you'd need to do some abuse with the [expertise] weapons, letting you make a valorous spiked chain.

[The Glyphstone]

Of course, once building a Charger, there's no reason not to include Frenzied Berzerker, since this is a martial-only arena. Now that I've looked though, Deadly Charge doesn't stack with Spirited Charge, so Cavalier is unnecessary, and FB goes instead.

Valorous Lance+Spirited Charge is x4 damage on charges. Leap Attack gets you doubling the total damage. Frenzied Berzerker 10 is a 4-1 return on Power Attacking. Power Attacking for 10 there gets you +320 damage.

[herrhauptmann]

Of course, once building a Charger, there's no reason not to include Frenzied Berzerker, since this is a martial-only arena. Now that I've looked though, Deadly Charge doesn't stack with Spirited Charge, so Cavalier is unnecessary, and FB goes instead.

Valorous Lance+Spirited Charge is x4 damage on charges. Leap Attack gets you doubling the total damage. Frenzied Berzerker 10 is a 4-1 return on Power Attacking. Power Attacking for 10 there gets you +320 damage.

Doubling a double is not a quadruple. It looks like that's the math you used.
Double a double is a triple.
Doubling that again is a quadruple.
Final multiplier = (initial multiplier) + (second multipler -1)
x5 = (FB) x4 + LA x(2-1)

[Greenish]

Doubling a double is not a quadruple. It looks like that's the math you used.
Double a double is a triple.
Doubling that again is a quadruple.
Final multiplier = (initial multiplier) + (second multipler -1)
x5 = (FB) x4 + LA x(2-1)Valorous is one doubling, lance is another, with spirited charge giving third it becomes x4. Leap Attack triples the PA damage (with two-hander) for x6, and then with FB power attack for 10 becomes 40 base, x6 so 240 damage from PA alone.

[Drend]

Nobody asked if there was a cliff (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0216.html) in your arena. If so, you need flying.

[Panigg]

I'm so glad there is some actual RP involved in "normal" adventures. I wouldn't get out of the book otherwise. :)

[strider24seven]

Of course, once building a Charger, there's no reason not to include Frenzied Berzerker, since this is a martial-only arena.

The problem with Frenzied Berzerker is that anyone with marbles or a grease spell can kill you if you can't make a decent will save. Steadfast Determination can help, but only so much.

And that would be embarrasing. A damage monster, able to deal out 10x power attack damage and 3x his normal damage, tearing apart dragons and trippers alike, killed by... marbles:smalleek:?

[Lycanthromancer]

The problem with Frenzied Berzerker is that anyone with marbles or a grease spell can kill you if you can't make a decent will save. Steadfast Determination can help, but only so much.

And that would be embarrasing. A damage monster, able to deal out 10x power attack damage and 3x his normal damage, tearing apart dragons and trippers alike, killed by... marbles:smalleek:?Luckily, the party's kender rogue lost his marbles long ago.

[Tinydwarfman]

The problem with Frenzied Berzerker is that anyone with marbles or a grease spell can kill you if you can't make a decent will save. Steadfast Determination can help, but only so much.

And that would be embarrasing. A damage monster, able to deal out 10x power attack damage and 3x his normal damage, tearing apart dragons and trippers alike, killed by... marbles:smalleek:?

Which is why you fly. It's basically a requirement at high levels, so there should be no problem.

[herrhauptmann]

Which is why you fly. It's basically a requirement at high levels, so there should be no problem.

Advantage to marbles or grease, is that now the party wizard can slow you down enough to wait out the frenzy. The downside, a recurring villain would figure it out too.

[The Glyphstone]

Valorous is one doubling, lance is another, with spirited charge giving third it becomes x4. Leap Attack triples the PA damage (with two-hander) for x6, and then with FB power attack for 10 becomes 40 base, x6 so 240 damage from PA alone.

The thing is that Leap Attack specifically isn't a "doubling", it increases the damage by 100%, according to CAdv errata. Oddly, it doesn't actually say that a 2-hander makes it +200% PA damage though.

If you use the patchwork wording that makes Leap Attacking with a 1-handed and x3 with a 2-hander, then the final multiplier does come out to x6 for +240 when PA'ing for 10.

If you take the Errata and logically extend it to the whole feat entry instead of just the 1-hander clause, you actually end up doing +480 damage for a 10-point PA sink. By RAW though, it doesn't work this way, so I messed up the original estimate by 1 multiplier.



As for the marbles/grease problem - as I originally said when mentioned FB, this is apparently an all-martial arena combat, so no Grease. Marbles could be a danger, but I think they're printed in the Arms and Equipment Guide, which is 3.0 and so slightly less likely to be used.

[SethFahad]

The thing is that Leap Attack specifically isn't a "doubling", it increases the damage by 100%, according to CAdv errata. Oddly, it doesn't actually say that a 2-hander makes it +200% PA damage though.


Well, it seems pretty clear to me...

it says:

...you deal +100% the normal bonus damage from your use of the Power Attack feat.

So, if normaly a 2-hander power attacks for 1 and takes damage 2, then with Leap Attack +100% equals damage 4. Simple.

Plus if he's a FB with Improved Power Attack then:
2-Handed PA 1 -> Dmg 3 -> Leap Att +100% dmg=6

similarly, if he's a FB with Supreme Power Attack then:
2-Handed PA 1 -> Dmg 4 -> Leap Att +100% dmg=8