Batman 3: Villains

[ThePhantasm]

Rumors are circulating that Christopher Nolan is indeed returning to film / direct Batman 3, a sequel to Batman Begins and the Dark Knight. Villains always play an important role in a Batman film - who do you think the villains should be and who should they be portrayed by?

Personally, I'd like to see Michael Emerson as the Mad Hatter and then someone else (not quite sure who) as Catwoman.

[Tavar]

It's not going to be Catwoman. Nolan has stated his he dislikes both Catwoman and Robin, and that they won't be in one of his movies.

[BRC]

The Riddler, preferably played by Michael C. Hall.

[kpenguin]

David Tennant for Riddler! (http://www.flickfilosopher.com/flickfilos/art/tennantriddler.jpg)

[WalkingTarget]

Back when TDK first came out, some friends and I decided that a non-cartoony version of either the Penguin or the Riddler could work.

Don't make Penguin deformed, he's just a "businessman" who tends to look like he's attending a black-tie event. Have a scene where it's raining so he's justified in carrying an umbrella (a normal umbrella) at least once.

For Mr. Nygma, play it off of some of the recent storylines from the comics where he might be something like a private detective or similar.

On the other hand, Scarecrow is still kicking around Gotham somewhere, so they could always do something with him.

[BRC]

David Tennant for Riddler! (http://www.flickfilosopher.com/flickfilos/art/tennantriddler.jpg)
VERY YES!
Forget what I said about Michael C. Hall. He would be awesome, but David Tennent would be better.

[Dienekes]

He's said he's not doing Catwomen, and Robin (Which I'm thankful for actually. When done right they're good characters when done even slightly wrong they screw up everything). He's also said none of the more zany and magical villains, so Mad Hatter, Penguin (this one specifically confirmed by Nolan to never be a part, which can be a pity actually as I have always had it in my head that a Penguin played seriously and Major Toht-esque could be great), Clayface are all out.

While I agree they don't fit the style Nolan is going for it rather limits his options.

Personally, I think he could make a very scary and compelling Killer Croc (not as a main villain mind you but as some dragon) lowering his reptile side and playing up the deformity a lot, though this is probably too zany as well.

Really though, I'd like to see Talia as a continuation of the League of Shadows. Maybe Riddler could show up, though even then most of his plots are too small for a movie. The League of Shadows tried to destroy the city in the first movie, the Joker tried to make Gotham his own personal playhouse in the second. They need villains that can think big to be the main baddies, Scarecrow could do this in the comics, but the movie version is a bit of a wimp. Two-Face is dead. Maybe they could use Hush or Bane but they aren't quite as iconic (well I suppose you could make a case for Bane).

[Starscream]

The Riddler, preferably played by Michael C. Hall.

I heard David Tennant was after that role. That might be cool.

And I don't know how serious this was, but someone apparently asked Johnny Depp if he'd be interested in the part in an interview, and he said it sounded fun. Hardly the same as him actually going after it, but you know that if he did the studio would bend over backwards to get him.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Under the harsh unforgiving light of Nolan's Gotham I don't know that the Riddler could survive being more then a cheap Joker knock-off. His main gimmick is just well, too silly. And is there any precedent for scaling him up to a truly major threat, it would be more him screwing with Bats just like Joker did last movie. Same thing for the Mad Hatter. We already have Scarecrow if we need to play mind games with Bats.

Penguin, well there's already been gangsters all through both movies so beyond his specific visual motif how would he stand out? Still possible though. Clayface, Man-Bat, and Mister Freeze are compelling but Nolan won't use them for being overly super-powered. Poison Ivy can be pruned (arrh!) into the setting without loosing her central cause I think, But I'm not sure where to go with her. The Ventriloquist or Black Mask could maybe work but either is a gangster with a specific gimmick. Bane is certainly possible but only quite feels right to me as part of some bigger plot, he'd need a partner of some nature.

I've seen Firefly, Killer Croc, and Deadshot done really well in Batman: Gotham Knight, more to less in the same universe. Deadshot in particular had a nice subplot being a gunman and making Bats remember his parents own death, nothing to do with him mind you but how taking down a sniper made Bats feel. Still like Bane they'd all need some larger plot and partner to work with.

Everbody else gets increasingly obscure especially to the non-comic reading audience. Though some part of me would like Nolan to be real daring and pick up say... Simon Hurt.

Still what really stands out is Talia, Talia, Talia. Its even a logical progression Bats has lost his not-girlfriend in last movie, so introduce her to capture his heart. Meanwhile someone is moving in on Gotham's crime world and sends some talented assasins afters Bats and/or Gordan, any villian who'd work for hire can be put here. And of course the mastermind is Talia.... or furthermore not her. Because you can never have enough Liam Neeson.

[Jerthanis]

While I agree they don't fit the style Nolan is going for it rather limits his options.

I love getting in discussions with non-comic book fans who argue passionately at me that Nolanverse Batman is "the true Batman" or some such.

I just love pointing out to them that what they consider the parts that ruin Batman are 90% of his content, and Nolan has almost used up all of Batman's mythos that doesn't go against his theme inside of two movies.

I can see why they're not comic book fans, but I wish they'd stop saying they like Batman. They like the Christopher Nolan Batman Movies, but they don't like Batman.

[Innis Cabal]

I love getting in discussions with non-comic book fans who argue passionately at me that Nolanverse Batman is "the true Batman" or some such.

I just love pointing out to them that what they consider the parts that ruin Batman are 90% of his content, and Nolan has almost used up all of Batman's mythos that doesn't go against his theme inside of two movies.

I can see why they're not comic book fans, but I wish they'd stop saying they like Batman. They like the Christopher Nolan Batman Movies, but they don't like Batman.

Don't you think that's a little egotistical and bigoted? How is the Nolan Batman any less Batman then the comic book Batman? How are they any less correct for liking one incarnation of Batman over another. Espcially considering there's more then one Batman even in DC continuity.

Just because someone dosn't religiously follow behind a character, reading all the material on him, throwing stacks of hard earned cash at the mythos like some vaulted ivory tower of good...that makes them not a fan of Batman?

Are you saying that I don't like Batman, even though my only contact with him is the old cartoon and the Nolan movies? That those two looks at the character are somehow -not- Batman, despite the name, actions and storylines that portray him as Batman? I couldn't (and still can't) afford comic books, so somehow that makes me not a fan of the character? Because I can't access all the material that makes Batman "Batman!" to you?

[Platinum_Mongoose]

I was thinking Bryan Cranston (Breaking Bad, Malcolm in the Middle) would make a good Riddler. Though now that David Tennant's potential Riddler-hood has been brought to my attention...

I agree that Penguin should just be a very formal mobster. Anything to gain distance from Tim Burton's... for lack of a better word, "vision."

[Soras Teva Gee]

@Innis Cabal: The point isn't so much about liking Nolan movies, but that they are the exclusively true and most importantly only Batman worthy of respect.

Particularly without having sampled the broader Batman media offerings. This attitude does exist, I've encountered it myself and its generally people who've only encountered Bats in the abstract and via the recent movie. Nay, The Dark Knight only.

Which is at least as limited a viewpoint as comics-only purists. I'm not going to touch whether this makes one true fan or not, that's always an argument that goes nowhere.

[nyarlathotep]

Not to be mean but Ironman wasn't exactly written but "Hollywood writers". It was made in house by Marvel itself. So really the beef would extend to the creators of a material not caring as a much about it as their fans, if your story is true.

Additionally in the case of Spider-Man Sam Raimi, the director, was a big comic book fan. What really screwed over the third installment was executives, rather than writers, forcing story changes to sell more tickets.

[Lord of Rapture]

@Innis Cabal: The point isn't so much about liking Nolan movies, but that they are the exclusively true and most importantly only Batman worthy of respect.

Particularly without having sampled the broader Batman media offerings. This attitude does exist, I've encountered it myself and its generally people who've only encountered Bats in the abstract and via the recent movie. Nay, The Dark Knight only.

Which is at least as limited a viewpoint as comics-only purists. I'm not going to touch whether this makes one true fan or not, that's always an argument that goes nowhere.

If you were a TRUE FAN, you would be whining about how much all the new Batman stuff sucks while still watching it just so you can whine about how much Nolan has FOREVER RUINED Batman. :smallwink:

[kpenguin]

To take a quote from Batman: The Brave and the Bold, which takes the opposite approach than Nolan's Dark Knight by taking Batman back to good ol' Silver Agey camp....

"Batman's rich history allows him to be interpreted in a multitude of ways. To be sure, this is a lighter incarnation, but it's certainly no less valid and true to the character's roots than the tortured avenger crying out for mommy and daddy."

Batman is Batman is Batman. Like many characters, he's been interpreted many ways and, beyond enjoyment of those interpretations, none of these are "superior" than another.

For my part, I enjoy the "realistic" Nolanverse Batman just as I enjoy the campy TB&TB Batman. One of the few disappointments I have with Nolanverse Batman is that it cuts away many parts of the Batman mythos, such as the supernatural. Still, that's a design decision and it works well with the flavor.

I'm also a bit confused as to why Penguin is not considered to be "realistic" enough. A posh mobster with a nice umbrella is less realistic than a radioactive water vaporizing doomsday machine? It's not as if weaponized umbrellas don't (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgi_Markov#Umbrella_Murder) have a precedent in real life (http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2008/07/unbreakable-fig/?npu=1&mbid=yhp).

EDIT: After watching some more videos demonstrating the Unbreakable Umbrella, I'm going to say that the umbrella could totally be an effective self defense weapon.

[Serpentine]

I love getting in discussions with non-comic book fans who argue passionately at me that Nolanverse Batman is "the true Batman" or some such.

I just love pointing out to them that what they consider the parts that ruin Batman are 90% of his content, and Nolan has almost used up all of Batman's mythos that doesn't go against his theme inside of two movies.

I can see why they're not comic book fans, but I wish they'd stop saying they like Batman. They like the Christopher Nolan Batman Movies, but they don't like Batman.In addition to what everyone else has said, maybe it's because I'm not a comicbook... efficionado, but I don't understand how "they don't fit the style Nolan is going for" = "Nolanverse Batman is the one true Batman" :confused:

I'm saddened by the ruling out of Catwoman - as an antiheroic catburgler, she sounded pretty awesome. Unless it's all a ruse to put us off the scent!
Could Poison Ivy be done convincingly?
How about actors for Harley Quinn? I kinda like the idea of this lass doing it:
http://linamariepony.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/kristen_.jpg
She'd be adorable! :smallbiggrin: Tricky part would be making her sinister... And sexy, if that's necessary...

Also, Tennant-Riddler: WANT.

edit: Oh! I heard one theory for the Riddler: the guy from Dark Knight who worked out who Batman was. So it'd be him:
http://images.buddytv.com/articles/the-dead-zone/images/anthony-michael-hall-1.jpghttp://hollywoodnews.today.com/files/2009/02/anthony-michael-hall.jpg
I think he could work. But is he good and interesting enough an actor to pull it off?

[Revlid]

Daniel Craig as Black Mask, with Deadshot as his Dragon, and Firefly and Mr. Freeze making cameos as an arsonist and hitman, respectively.

David Tennant's Riddler is the "final scene" villain of the movie, a-la Two-Face or (to a lesser extent) Ra's Al Ghul.

[darkblade]

I was sickened. No wonder VENOM was ruined in Spider-man 3. The true history of that tale was much more interesting than some random meteorite.

The true history was the first big mega-crossover which would have to be it's own movie if it were to be included followed by a retcon to get Peter back into his iconic red and blues.

The meteorite was the best way to go for the sake of berevity and simplicity. Besides the Secret Wars and the early Venom stories really were overall worse than Spider-Man 3 which's main problem was pacing and trying to fit way too much into an hour and 45 minutes.


For my part, I enjoy the "realistic" Nolanverse Batman just as I enjoy the campy TB&TB Batman. One of the few disappointments I have with Nolanverse Batman is that it cuts away many parts of the Batman mythos, such as the supernatural. Still, that's a design decision and it works well with the flavor.

I'm also a bit confused as to why Penguin is not considered to be "realistic" enough. A posh mobster with a nice umbrella is less realistic than a radioactive water vaporizing doomsday machine? It's not as if weaponized umbrellas don't (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgi_Markov#Umbrella_Murder) have a precedent in real life (http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2008/07/unbreakable-fig/?npu=1&mbid=yhp).

EDIT: After watching some more videos demonstrating the Unbreakable Umbrella, I'm going to say that the umbrella could totally be an effective self defense weapon.

Because he is a regular mobster at heart the whole birds and umbrella gimic is secondary to the mobster image the modern age penguin invokes. Introducing him like that now after we had two movies with Falcone playing C-Plot would open plot holes and leave people wondering how he got this kind of power base this quickly or if he had it before why haven't we heard anything about him in the previous two movies.

[kamikasei]

edit: Oh! I heard one theory for the Riddler: the guy from Dark Knight who worked out who Batman was. So it'd be him:
I think he could work. But is he good and interesting enough an actor to pull it off?

Can't speak to the guy's merits as an actor, but this seems like a non-starter. He was an accountant. He ran WayneTech's books and found they hadn't covered their tracks adequately. That's not symptomatic of a general compulsion to solve and leave riddles, it isn't a solved riddle itself, and it means he already has the answer - it's a very tenuous connection to try to make.

In general I think the Riddler could be made to work, but unfortunately the way I could see that being done would have him overlap too much with the Nolanverse Joker.

[Innis Cabal]

@Innis Cabal: The point isn't so much about liking Nolan movies, but that they are the exclusively true and most importantly only Batman worthy of respect.

My point was lobbied at the post I quoted. I agree with your point, well...on reflection I don't, all Batman's are valid, period as their Batman. No form of media is "better".

[Lix Lorn]

Has anybody heard of Batman: Knightfall? That would make a good film.

Also, I can imagine Harley Quinn. The Joker's a horrible person, but everyone has fans.
(Slightly overfond of Harley Quinn due to mother using that as her net-name)

[kamikasei]

My point was lobbied at the post I quoted. I agree with your point, well...on reflection I don't, all Batman's are valid, period as their Batman. No form of media is "better".

I think you may be misunderstanding. Neither Soras Teva Gee nor Jerthanis before him were saying that the Nolan movies are bad or "invalid". Jerthanis was talking about people who say that only the Batman from those movies is the "real" Batman, dismissing the different portrayals in other media over his long history. You seem to be agreeing with his point, but misattributing to him the inverse of the attidute he's criticizing.

[Seraph]

I could see the Riddler working, possibly.

Maybe, Edward Nigma is a "self-made millionaire," who worked his way from lower-class origins to the head of a massive entertainment company through his own work and a few illegal activities. He comes to gotham for the possibility of a partnership with Wayne Enterprises for designing some new products, but since Bruce's day-face is the complete antithesis of Nigma's, he finds him impossibly loathesome and decides to try and take Wayne Enterprises by force.

Partway through the movie, Edward's obsessive attention to detail leads to him personally supervising some shady business, which is busted up by batman. the resulting scandal hurts Nigma, though he doesn't get sunk completely. He finds a B-Villain and gives them company funds specifically for the purpose of taking down Batman.


I'm sure this all sounds utterly ridiculous, I'm just throwing something off the cuff before I go to class.

[Geiger Counter]

I've got it! Wayne Knight as King Tut
http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af289/abraxas1234/tut.jpg

[Ichneumon]

Couldn't we have a batman movie without a BBEG/villain? That would be something new.

[Sucrose]

Well, then it's just two hours of Batman beating up random thugs with minimal philosophical thoughts, since none of them offer a new challenge to his worldview. This admittedly has its own entertainment value, but doesn't seem like the sort of movie Christopher Nolan would be interested in making.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Some arguments presented here are good, but some aren't.

Don't forget that Nolan's style isn't just to present us with a bad guy and having Batman beat him up. That's a cheesy formula that wrecked the Schumaer serie, and having the complete opposite, with each villain interacting with Batman in a unique, special, and personnal way makes it so great.

The only villain that wasn't that much linked to Batman was Scarecrow, and when you remember, he's the only one having beaten Batman in a fight. Also, he was supposed to represent the single element Batman was meant to channel: fear. Scarecrow was Fear. It fitted very well in Batman Begin's theme of turning your fear on the criminals.

Ras-al Ghul? He trained Batman.
Two-Face? He was the White Knight Batman wanted for Gotham city, one that could allow him to retire.
Joker? He was the single force that Batman was powerless to stop. Where Batman wanted people to gain hope and start standing up for themselves, the Joker wanted people to despair and looking out for themselves. Where Batman wanted to have society to be strong and thriving, the Joker wanted to see it burn down for a laugh.

So when you have to consider a new villain for the Nolanverse, there isn't any problem with going to get it in the DCverse. It's great, there are some amazing villain. But you are going to do 2 things:

1) Add a dose of realism. No cheesy superpowers, except some fancy, limited high-tech stuff (the micro-wave water-heater wasn't far fetched, you should now)
2) (now this is the part most writer forget) Find a way to provoke something out of Batman's soul.

My idea for the Riddler was that having a young, bright detective, who's not in it for the money, nor the Law, but just for the funs. He arrests criminals, free innocents, but also can get people arrested for stupid technicality, because he's that good.

And he discover who is Batman, and confronts him about it. And Batman has to wonder: that man isn't a criminal. He arrests criminals. His only fault is that he discovered who I am.. Is it moral to do my best to silence him?

Am I justified to harm an innocent, even if it's only by discrediting him, only to save my identity?

This would be a great moral dilemma, that done well, would be a worthy addition to the Batmanverse in its whole. Also, it would give another good lampshading on our own society, about "protecting secrets for the good of all".

[Dienekes]

Couldn't we have a batman movie without a BBEG/villain? That would be something new.

People watch Batman in a large part for Batman and for an equally large part for the Rogues Gallery.

No executive is going to back the movie with half the big pull missing. Also, without the BBEG Batman becomes just a detective who dresses creepily. Also, I think you don't understand how new comic book fans want their comic book movies. New is a terrible terrible thing. Don't you know doing something new in comic book movies leads to chaos, destruction, the potential loss of life, and all things comic book?

[The Glyphstone]

Also, without the BBEG Batman becomes just a psychopathic nutcase who dresses creepily.

More accurate?

[Thufir]

The two are not mutually exclusive...

[waterpenguin43]

I would love to say The Penguin, but mister Nolan said incorporating him would be tricky. I do support the idea of him being a very formal and refined mobster, though.

[paddyfool]

@Solka,

"The Question" might be a better fit for that. Especially as he could be anyone under the mask... even Two Face.

So far, the character development has been as follows:
Film 1: Batman is a tough, physically-capable hero
Film 2: Batman is a noble, self-sacrificing hero

What's been missing a tad (although less so than in the previous films) is the brains. So for film 3, I'd like to see this: Batman is a smart/tactical hero.

One way to do this might be a plotline of Batman being initially hunted not only by the police, but also by some combination of, say, the Question, Two-Face, Bane and/or Deadshot, each with their own motives, and some kind of more nebulous power-broker behind the scenes somehow (Ras again? Talia? Penguin?). There is, as always, a risk with too many villains (one of Spiderman 3's problems...) However, this could be both fun and interesting, if it features some very smart way of him turning it to his advantage, and restoring some measure of order - albeit a doubtless rather precarious one - to Gotham at the end.

[SolkaTruesilver]

@Solka,

"The Question" might be a better fit for that. Especially as he could be anyone under the mask... even Two Face.

So far, the character development has been as follows:
Film 1: Batman is a tough, physically-capable hero
Film 2: Batman is a noble, self-sacrificing hero

What's been missing a tad (although less so than in the previous films) is the brains. So for film 3, I'd like to see this: Batman is a smart/tactical hero.

One way to do this might be a plotline of Batman being initially hunted not only by the police, but also by some combination of, say, the Question, Two-Face, Bane and/or Deadshot, each with their own motives, and some kind of more nebulous power-broker behind the scenes somehow (Ras again? Talia? Penguin?). There is, as always, a risk with too many villains (one of Spiderman 3's problems...) However, this could be both fun and interesting, if it features some very smart way of him turning it to his advantage, and restoring some measure of order - albeit a doubtless rather precarious one - to Gotham at the end.

You idea has merit, but I think 2 villains would be quite ennough. You want to develop on your villains. You want some good build-up toward them, about them. You want to see their interaction, some realistic and interesting dialogues. Joker Vs. Mob Bosses was awesome. Scarecrow Vs. Falcone. Harvey Dent and Gordon. Ras-al Ghul and Batman.

Remember Bane from B&R? yhea, me too. NEVER AGAIN.

I might agree that the movie might be about his brains and clever tactics, but you still need a good villain. And the best villains are not the one that shows up during the first 5 minutes with a cheesy exposition and then it's just Fightfightfight and lame puns that leave of ice.

[waterpenguin43]

Remember Bane from B&R? yhea, me too. NEVER AGAIN.

OH GODS!!!! MY EYES!!! MY POOR, POOR EYES!!!!!! :smalleek::smallfurious::smallyuk:

[Magnor Criol]

Conan o'Brien as Riddler. :smallbiggrin:



Well, in seriousness, I think that Black Mask could be made into a good villain that fits the series well; he's often a mob boss in continuities, and after Two-Face's and Joker's activities last movie there's a lot of mob men running around with no leader, which could easily set the stage for Black Mask to come from their ranks and take over.

Also, Harley Quinn could come up as a Joker sympathizer who's trying to recreate his legacy. It'd be hard to do her justice, though, since you can't have the Joker himself appear to stoke her fires. (And having anyone else do the joker after Ledger did such an impeccably sublime job would be downright criminal.

[kpenguin]

Because he is a regular mobster at heart the whole birds and umbrella gimic is secondary to the mobster image the modern age penguin invokes. Introducing him like that now after we had two movies with Falcone playing C-Plot would open plot holes and leave people wondering how he got this kind of power base this quickly or if he had it before why haven't we heard anything about him in the previous two movies.

Same reason we didn't hear anything about the Dark Knight mobsters in Batman Begins.

Anyway, nature abhors a vacuum and if there's one thing that can be said about the leadership of organized crime in Gotham...

[pita]

I would use one or two of these villains:
Bane (My ideal actor: The Rock, Vin Diesel) is a gangster who takes over the hole left by Gotham's mafia. He's more brutal, more intelligent, and much more influential than Maroni ever was. He can also beat up Batman very easily. He starts spreading a new drug, called Venom (I would have it in patches, IE Batman Beyond's "slappers", but it could also work as something injected), in the streets, which is a form of steroids, that makes people very strong, and very angry. The major conflict in this movie is that Batman has nothing he can use against him but his brains. Possibly have him have Killer Croc as a Dragon, as simply a huge mobster.
Edward Nygma (Ideal actor: Alan Tudyk) is the new head of the investigation into Batman. He's an eccentric type who is very good at his job. He figures out who Batman is from the mountain of evidence accumulated throughout the movies (Who was Coleman Reese working for before arriving at his decision to unveil Batman, which mysterious millionaire with reasons to fight crime arrived in Gotham immediately before Batman, who uses very high quality equipment), but also figures out that Batman could not be the guy who killed Maroni and Wirtz, since the bullets match the gun Harvey Dent was carrying, or something, and the times don't add up in any case, because he was busy beating up SWAT agents at the time. Or, he doesn't, but in any case, he tells Bruce Wayne to confess to the police that he's Batman. The difference between whether or not he figures that out is whether or not he's on Bruce's side after he confesses. If he does. I just want Alan Tudyk as The Riddler, I'll be honest. He'll be so much better than Michael C Hall or David Tennant. Major conflict here is A. an innocent man who is after Batman for legitimate reasons (IE. hundreds of counts of assault and battery, one manslaughter, and several resisting arrest, tons of property damage), and B. Whether Bruce Wayne should confess that he's Batman. You don't necessarily have to have the Riddler telling jokes, I think.
Talia Al Ghul (Ideal Actress: Morena Baccarin, although I could easily accept others) is the daughter of Ra's, and takes over the League of Shadows. She's simply after revenge, so she's looking for Batman. You could also add a possible affair she's having with Bruce Wayne.
The Joker could be back, if you hire a new actor. Possibly the guy from the Joker Blogs, even though he has a bit of an accent that needs work. Although I don't really know what they'd do with him.
The Penguin (Ideal actor: Peter Dinklage) is the new guy in charge of the mob. I don't know exactly what I'd do with him, but this is under the same principle as I had The Riddler: That Peter Dinklage should play a mobster, he would be awesome.
Tim Drake (Ideal actor: Rehire Jack Gleeson. If you don't remember who Jack Gleeson is, he's the little kid from the first movie. The one Rachel helps protect later on, and who gets a Batarang) is a young trainee on the police force. I'm thinking he could be someone who's convinced that Batman didn't kill his idol, Harvey Dent, and tries proving it. Not a villain, but perhaps a foil for Edward Nigma. Maybe he also starts beating up thugs.

Another possibility is the city pretty much erupting with criminals, with maybe Talia Al Ghul responsible for it all. The Penguin's mob facing Bane's gang, Edward Nigma theoretically being a detective working to keep the peace but practically being obsessed about Batman, maybe have Victor Zsasz and the Joker killing people, and have it be too much for Batman. Somewhat like Knightfall, I would think. Have that be the name of the movie, as well, because it's an awesome name. I would go see Batman: Knightfall, or just Knightfall. This won't be just Batman beating people up, but I can't think of a clever twist, right now. Maybe I will later. But the idea of Peter Dinklage beating up The Rock with an umbrella brings a smile to my face like nothing else does.
Also, I want to see Cillian Murphy reprise his role as Scarecrow yet again, because he is one of the best villain actors ever and Red Eye was disappointing, I want to see him as more villains.

[Dienekes]

For some reason (throwing random idea out here), I see Nolan's Batman as a 4 movie arc.

But I think a large problem with the Riddler idea (though I like the character in general) is that a lot of folk are thinking too small for the movie. Nolan's Batman works on epic scales, saving all of Gotham. Riddler, as most are portraying him doesn't pose that threat. That threat is possibly more necessary for this upcoming movie than any other so far, since it has to be big enough for the police to stop hunting Batman.

Bane would be cool if done right (look at Knightfall and then stop looking at him at all, in my opinion), but I think for him to be fully effective it'd be as a movie 4 villain, since his big thing is manipulating other villains to weaken Batman as he likes and as of now we have only 3 villains to actually work with here (Joker, Zsasz, and Scarecrow) of those 3, two of which seem to be mooks.

Edit: And yes Glyphstone, more accurate. Though your way does sound a lot more interesting to watch, so you'll excuse me while I don't say it that way while trying to make a point how it will not be as interesting to watch.

[BRC]

I remember hearing an interesting theory shortly after Dark Knight came out. Here's my version of it.

Edward Nigma is a somewhat odd, but incredibly brilliant investigator brought in to hunt down the Batman. He recognizes that Batman is more than just a thug, he is intelligent, brilliant even. What's more, the Batman has an inflated ego, he sees himself as more capable and more worthy of cleaning up Gotham than the police. At this point, Detective Nigma is still fairly sane,merely somewhat eccentric. Nigma determines that the best way to catch Batman is with a sting operation, to make Batman come to them. He fakes a crime (takes a cadaver from the morgue, dresses it like a cop, shoots it), leaving an obvious riddle at the scene that leads to a location in hopes of luring Batman into a trap. Gordon tips Batman off. Nigma decides to try it again, this time he goes behind the backs of the Gotham Police, bringing in people from the outside. Once again, he commits a crime and leaves a riddle, hoping to lure batman into a trap.
As the Movie progresses, Nigma becomes more and more insane. He becomes obsessed with proving that he is smarter than Batman. Early on in the film he should say something like "I have an IQ of two hundred forty, I think I can catch a guy in a bat suit". He should repeat that several times throughout the film, frustrated that his incredible intelligence can be bested. By the end of the film, he's gone totally bonkers, he no longer cares about catching Batman, merely proving he is smarter. He kills people and leaves riddles at the scene that point at the locations of bombs placed around the city.


Meanwhile, between the Joker and Dent, a power vacuum has arisen in the Gotham underworld. Now, the way I see it, this could be filled by several roles.
1: Bane. Formerly a thug under Marcone, Bane is a massive brute of a man, very skilled at hand to hand combat. He is also intelligent, far more than he was given credit for before. He begins pulling together the dispossessed street thugs with his own brand of violent charisma. While the gotham police become obsessed with the more dramatic Batman case, a simple, mundane case like the rise of this new organized crime leader is largely ignored.

2: The Penguin. While Bane would rebuild the Gotham underground from the bottom up, the Penguin does it from the other direction. He shows up, he's intelligent, he's polite, he's got funding, and he's looking for employees. Physically, he's not very imposing, he's short, pudgy, and he tends to wear a tuxedo (Hence the nickname he quickly gains). He arrives in Gotham as a businessman, claiming he's here to help revitalize the city, so while he establishes himself as a major player in Gotham's high society, he rebuilds the mafia into a smooth, efficient organization.

Edit: Ooh! Idea. Drop the Mob angle. When it becomes clear that Batman can beat up any of the cops he tries to use to take him down, Nigma makes a deal with the best hand to hand combatant he knows. A former pit fighter currently serving time for violent assault. He's strong, fast, and smart. If anybody can beat the Bat in a fistfight, it's this guy.
The name he used to fight under by the way? Bane.

Edit: Or, go with the Mob angle. Batman hunts down the Mobsters, Nigma keeps trying to lay these traps, but Batman is too busy to notice, so he gets more and more frustrated, until he decides to do something Batman can't ignore (The bombs)

[Lix Lorn]

I like BRC's plot. Let's hire hi-oh. Not our decision. Dayamn.

[Jerthanis]

I think you may be misunderstanding. Neither Soras Teva Gee nor Jerthanis before him were saying that the Nolan movies are bad or "invalid". Jerthanis was talking about people who say that only the Batman from those movies is the "real" Batman, dismissing the different portrayals in other media over his long history. You seem to be agreeing with his point, but misattributing to him the inverse of the attidute he's criticizing.

Yes absolutely, I do like both films greatly, and don't mind them pulling away from the supernatural elements at all (although microwave doomsday machine and the Bat-summoning whistle were pretty comic-book science in the first one). I have specific complaints about the movies, but I like them a great, great deal.

I also like the Bruce Timm/ Paul Dini Batman animated series, and think it might be the best overall depiction of Batman I've ever seen.

But I get in discussions with people who have seen the movies and will roll their eyes at the cartoon and comic books and so forth... and I meet people who grew up with the cartoon and cannot accept that it took liberties too, and that Batman's mythology is larger than it was. These people both think they like the "one true" Batman, but they each are only highlighting a certain percentage of his content... and the Nolanverse as a vanishingly small percentage of that. Which is why we find it so hard to imagine which villain could be next... Nolanverse is such a small playground for how colorful and vibrant Batman is.

Which is why I hoped The Dark Knight would be the last one... put a franchise to bed and reboot it later without doing it out of shame for once. Let these two movies tell a complete story and not buy into the fanaticism for trilogies.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Yes absolutely, I do like both films greatly, and don't mind them pulling away from the supernatural elements at all (although microwave doomsday machine and the Bat-summoning whistle were pretty comic-book science in the first one). I have specific complaints about the movies, but I like them a great, great deal.


What about the Batomnivision developped in the Dark Knight?

[ThePhantasm]

I don't think the Mad Hatter would be unrealistic. His mind control could be accomplished through some sort of MKUltra style serum. Those things have some grounding in reality, just as much as Batman's sonar-watch-everyone-through-their-cell-phones device does.

My idea is that the Mad Hatter enjoys manipulating people to achieve his goals. He sees a similarity between himself and Batman - Batman is attempting to manipulate criminal's actions through fear, stopping crime. The Hatter wants to stop corruption as well, but in a way that removes people's free will. You could do a lot more in the third film on the topic of Batman's boundaries and such.

Plus, Michael Emerson from LOST would be a great Hatter. The Hatter is a weaselly wimp, but a very dangerous, intelligent, full-of-surprises weasel.

[Eerie]

Don't make Penguin deformed, he's just a "businessman" who tends to look like he's attending a black-tie event. Have a scene where it's raining so he's justified in carrying an umbrella (a normal umbrella) at least once.


Personally, I love Penguin from Batman Returns [1992].

[Telonius]

My suspicion falls on Poison Ivy for the next villain.

Pros:
- More "human-like." Easy to power down to non-supervillain status (as was done in the animated series).
- Fits in with existing movie mythos. We've already had flowers that do odd things to your brain, in Batman Begins. Expanding that doesn't involve much power creep.
- Moral ambiguity. If they play up the eco-terrorist element, this could make a good conflict for Bruce/Batman, in their Wayne Enterprises/Crimefighting roles respectively.
- Potential romantic tension. Coupled with Moral ambiguity, this would be a great way to torment Bats, when his hopes are brutally dashed.

Cons:
- Might be seen as too campy to consider.
- There are other villains generally considered more central to the Batman mythos. She's a member of the Rogue's Gallery. Bigger than Egghead or King Tut, but she's no Joker.
- Maybe not enough there to the character to wrap the whole movie around.

[Dienekes]

I've never been too big an Ivy fan so I tend to overlook her.

Personally I think she would work very well as a bio terrorist. Though I think it'd be hard to do her being terrorist like without the creation of the giant plant growing madness which may be too camp.

As for romance, personally I think she doesn't hold a candle to Catwomen or Talia. But then, I already admitted my bias.

[Telonius]

Oh, I agree on both counts there. But I'm taking it for granted that Catwoman really is off-limits in the series. As for Talia... I really just don't see it happening.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Personally I think she would work very well as a bio terrorist. Though I think it'd be hard to do her being terrorist like without the creation of the giant plant growing madness which may be too camp.


I don't think the underlying message would work very well. Depicting a villain as an ecoterrorist won't really be popular. It tanked Chrichton's latest novels..

You need another struggle. The first one was about the Criminals owning the city. The second one was about Terrorists wanting to destroy society..

How about having the 3rd one being about over-oppression by the government? you know.. now that Batman is a tracked man. The government will go out of it's way to track him down and arrest him, trampling on personnal liberties, maybe trying to takeover Wayne Enterprises?

[ThePhantasm]

How about having the 3rd one being about over-oppression by the government? you know.. now that Batman is a tracked man. The government will go out of it's way to track him down and arrest him, trampling on personnal liberties, maybe trying to takeover Wayne Enterprises?

Ugh, no. I get tired of watching Batman elude the police all the time.

[darkblade]

Couldn't we have a batman movie without a BBEG/villain? That would be something new.

I'm going to point you in the general direction of the Superman movies for reasons why that would suck. In addition to just plain bad use of the character but the lack of villian really hurts.

It'd be even worse with Batman. One of the facets of his character is that he is that despite his obsessions with justice and fear and his absurd amounts of training and what not he almost always plays the straight man to a much more insane criminal. Batman is almost always the most boring character in any work he is in but he makes it work by being boring in a pure contrast to the evil he fights.

[TheThan]

Wow the plot the BRC came up with is nearly identical to what I was going to suggest. Maybe we got the idea from the same source I dunno.

But honestly I think The Penguin, Bane, Black Cat, The Riddler, and Talia are the best bests for a 3rd movie. Clayface has some potential if they make him a master of disguise instead of a guy who can literally rearrange his face. Poison ivy could be done, but it would take an awful lot of character changing to make her fit in the Nolan batverse. Harlequin also has a lot of potential but honestly I’m not sure she’s a strong enough character to stand up by herself in a movie. Besides we already had one anarchist/terrorist, and I’m not sure it’d be a good idea to do the same thing to pull the same trick twice. Granted they would probably have to go in a different direction with Harley to make it work and be different from the Joker.

[Kobold-Bard]

I want Harley Quinn, admittedly only because I'm a massive fanboy.

[arguskos]

I want Harley Quinn, admittedly only because I'm a massive fanboy.
Isn't everyone, down deep, a Quinn fanboy? :smallbiggrin:

[SolkaTruesilver]

But honestly I think The Penguin, Bane, Black Cat, The Riddler, and Talia are the best bests for a 3rd movie. Clayface has some potential if they make him a master of disguise instead of a guy who can literally rearrange his face. Poison ivy could be done, but it would take an awful lot of character changing to make her fit in the Nolan batverse. Harlequin also has a lot of potential but honestly I’m not sure she’s a strong enough character to stand up by herself in a movie. Besides we already had one anarchist/terrorist, and I’m not sure it’d be a good idea to do the same thing to pull the same trick twice. Granted they would probably have to go in a different direction with Harley to make it work and be different from the Joker.

Or! OR!

Not all of them! Max 2 villains, it's more than ennough!

[Lix Lorn]

Two is a good number. (nods)

[Eerie]

Isn't everyone, down deep, a Quinn fanboy? :smallbiggrin:

I can`t imagine why. Practically all women in comics are sexy, so why pick the crazy one?

[Piedmon_Sama]

Riddler could easily work in the more toned-down, "realistic" Nolanverse easily. Don't start him out with his "guessing game," gimmick because it IS too silly to allow him to last long in the cinematic environment. Since they concluded the last movie with Batman as a fugitive, I'd have "the Riddler" brought in as Special Investigator Edward Nigma for the FBI, there to bring the former vigilante (now murderer) Batman to justice. Have him march in and virtually take over Gordon's department, playing against the Commissioner who's trying to undermine him at every turn.

Meanwhile, I think the easiest answer to a major antagonist is none other than Bane. You roll your eyes, but at the core Bane is far from an outrageous character. He's been interpreted as an assassin for hire (in the cartoon), and having a strong need to prove himself as the world's deadliest man over "the Bat." We've already introduced the League of Assassins (rather, League of Shadows) into the Nolanverse, so this is easy. Open the third film back in the Himalayas, Hindu Kush or wherever with a scene that recalls Batman Begins. An initiate stands in the snowy temple, surrounded by hooded ninja, solemnly asked by the Master of the Order (perhaps one of the original assassins we saw in the first film) if he is ready to take revenge on Gotham and "The Bat"---if he is ready to face his greatest fear.

The initiate stands up from his kneeling position, and we realize that this guy is huge. An enormous fist clenches. Under his ninja hood, black eyes burn. "Fear? I have no fear--I am Fear. I am Bane. And I will defeat the Bat. Not for your vengeance. For myself." And then he reaches those enormous arms out to either side, like lightning, grabs two ninja and sends them flying. The huge guy destroys these dozen men with his bare hands, and we hear his laugh echo off the mountains while he does it.

Bring Bane to Gotham, and have him immediately make a splash by hunting the Batman. He prowls in the night with ninja skills of his own, staking out crimes and waiting for Wayne to interfere with one. They meet, and Batman narrowly squeaks a win against Bane, who retreats in outrage. How could he be beaten? It's his destiny to be the strongest! Bit by bit, we learn his backstory. Born in a jail cell, by political prisoners in Cuba, he fought his way through childhood on the streets and eventually became a hitman for the regime himself. Always, there were two kinds of people in his world: the fearful, and the feared. As a child, he would dream nightmares. Always, the tormenters, like animals, were after him. There was only one way for him to conquer all fear and end his nightmares: become feared. He moved up to bigger money killing men for the Cartels. Eventually it was too easy, and still the nightmares came. He was feared, but not enough yet. He wasn't yet at the top. The League of Assassins offered him something more. The skills he needed to take down the deadliest man in the world. All he needs is one more edge.

Enter the Scarecrow. Dr. Crane's been rotting in Arkham for a while now, brooding and plotting his revenge. He's been playing with chemical formulae in his spare time, and he's got a new idea for a designer drug. He knows his brilliance has brought him close to ruling Gotham's underworld before. The only problem is physical--he's no match for Batman face-to-face. This new drug, a super-steroid, is going to take care of that. He just needs a willing patsy. He gets word out on the street. Bane, always taking what he needs from the terrified crooks of Gotham, hears it. Infiltrating Arkham, he busts Scarecrow out, extracting a promise from the Doctor to make him "the strongest man the world's ever seen."

Meanwhile, Nigma's relentlessly hunting Wayne. Worse, the smarmy guy is just as brilliant as he says he is. At the halfway point of the movie, have him outwit both Batman and Gordon by predicting, over Batman's best efforts, where Batman will be. He calls in SWAT teams and sets up a massive ambush. Remember that one terrifying part of Batman: Mask of the Phantasm where the police finally go after him en force? Batman's hounded relentlessly, shot, chased through the streets, and just when you think they have him eludes the cops. That's where Nigma loses it--furious at being outsmarted, at how incompetent everyone around him is, he snaps on his subordinates. Just to prove how thick they are, he starts firing riddles at them. "Idiots. You're all idiots. I'm in a world of idiots. What runs, but never walks? What flies without wings? WHY IS A RAVEN LIKE A WRITING DISC? Logic, basic deductive reasoning skills, you idiots!" After being told up by his superiors at the debriefing, Nigma goes AWOL, convinced he can do a better job on his own.

Keep going back and forth between the two plots of Bane and the Riddler closing in on Batman, like pincers, each working in his own way. The Riddler, always a step ahead of Gordon's efforts to thwart him, is slowly becoming more and more certain that Batman must be none other than infamously dissolute Bruce Wayne. The problem is that the idea is so absurd, no one will believe him. And nobody in the department is willing to help. He continues to feel isolated, closed in, unrecognized for his genius. At the climax Bane, now equipped with Scarecrow's "venom" cocktail, attacks Batman and soundly trashes him. Nigma, having deduced Batman's identity and tracked him, intervenes and solves the last riddle--why Gordon has been protecting Batman, and why the world needs him. Entering the fray, the till-now arrogant harrier buys Batman time at a critical moment and pays for it (either with his life, or suffering a serious injury). Batman manages to get Bane from behind, sabatoging his Venom apparatus and sending the killer into catatonia from an overdose. Nigma, dying, laughs that he solved it all--why people are willing to protect the Batman, why there must be a Batman, and who Batman really is.

Throw in a final speech to tie in the moral and you've got a solid third entry, IMO. That's how I'd do it.

[Lix Lorn]

AWESOME.
You sir/madam, are a genius.

[darkblade]

Same reason we didn't hear anything about the Dark Knight mobsters in Batman Begins.

Anyway, nature abhors a vacuum and if there's one thing that can be said about the leadership of organized crime in Gotham...

Yes we did. Falcone was present in both movies, he wasn't the boss in Begins but he was there on screen and even had a few lines.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Batman manages to get Bane from behind, sabatoging his Venom apparatus and sending the killer into catatonia from an overdose. Nigma, dying, laughs that he solved it all--why people are willing to protect the Batman, why there must be a Batman, and who Batman really is.
.

I like it. But can I make a suggestion?

Have E. Nygma being striken by the psychotropic drug, and that is what causes his final hysteria. Worse, let him LIVE, but mad. As the Riddler we all know.

Effectively, Batman 3 would be the Riddler's creation story. Like Batman 2 was Two-Face creation story. Both would be villains with a tragic story.

[Dienekes]

I don't think the underlying message would work very well. Depicting a villain as an ecoterrorist won't really be popular. It tanked Chrichton's latest novels..

You need another struggle. The first one was about the Criminals owning the city. The second one was about Terrorists wanting to destroy society..

How about having the 3rd one being about over-oppression by the government? you know.. now that Batman is a tracked man. The government will go out of it's way to track him down and arrest him, trampling on personnal liberties, maybe trying to takeover Wayne Enterprises?

Ugh, I hope not. GOVERNMENT BAD!!! Has been done enough in my personal opinion. And we already had Batman screwing with personal liberty up the wazoo by spying on everyone in the city last movie. Personally I think eco-terrorism could be much more interesting. Someone whose basic (very basic) goals seem ok to good in peoples minds but carrying it too far.

That speaks more to me than, huh, look at the evil corrupt governing types. Aren't they just naughty?

[Lix Lorn]

Yup, we definitely need more moral amiguity. [snark] XD

[SolkaTruesilver]

Ugh, I hope not. GOVERNMENT BAD!!! Has been done enough in my personal opinion. And we already had Batman screwing with personal liberty up the wazoo by spying on everyone in the city last movie. Personally I think eco-terrorism could be much more interesting. Someone whose basic (very basic) goals seem ok to good in peoples minds but carrying it too far.

That speaks more to me than, huh, look at the evil corrupt governing types. Aren't they just naughty?

This wouldn't about GOVERNMENT BAD. This would be about the very moral ambiguity that is striking our society. Or maybe about the need to "keep secrets", etc...

[TheThan]

Or! OR!

Not all of them! Max 2 villains, it's more than ennough!

Never said all of them should be in the movie. But those are six or so characters that would best fit into a third movie.


Pidmon sama, great work there. I like it. you could even switch scarecrow with poison ivy. Since the crow focuses on psychotropic drugs, making steroids is sorta out of his area of expertise. Poison Ivy could be an introverted young biologist who either is in debt to the league of shadows or maybe just Bane. So they use her to concoct the “venom” serum for bane. it'd be a good way to fit her in without going all campy.

Hey you could even go so far as to introduce Talia as the new leader of the league of shadows, and have her be the force behind Bane, setting her up as the main villain in the fourth movie.

[Lix Lorn]

Not gonna be a fourth. Sorry. XD

[Dienekes]

This wouldn't about GOVERNMENT BAD. This would be about the very moral ambiguity that is striking our society. Or maybe about the need to "keep secrets", etc...

Ehh, questioning over government ambiguity still seems to have been done to death and back to me, while ecoterrorism could be something fairly new and interesting. Course it ain't up to me but that's how I feel about it.


Never said all of them should be in the movie. But those are six or so characters that would best fit into a third movie.


Pidmon sama, great work there. I like it. you could even switch scarecrow with poison ivy. Since the crow focuses on psychotropic drugs, making steroids is sorta out of his area of expertise. Poison Ivy could be an introverted young biologist who either is in debt to the league of shadows or maybe just Bane. So they use her to concoct the “venom” serum for bane. it'd be a good way to fit her in without going all campy.

Hey you could even go so far as to introduce Talia as the new leader of the league of shadows, and have her be the force behind Bane, setting her up as the main villain in the fourth movie.

I think you have some great ideas there. But let's just say I'm very, very cautious about parring up Bane and Poison Ivy ever again.

[Kobold-Bard]

I can`t imagine why. Practically all women in comics are sexy, so why pick the crazy one?

Because normal people are boring. I should know, I am one.

[TheThan]

I think you have some great ideas there. But let's just say I'm very, very cautious about parring up Bane and Poison Ivy ever again.


I completely understand your fears here. In B&R bane was nothing but a sack of muscle for the dynamic duo to beat up (seriously his only line was “rawrr!”). I’m still amazed they managed to screw him up so badly. They turned an otherwise interesting and compelling villain into an attack dog for Poison Ivy.


Instead Bane would be a smart, charismatic and a physically dangerous opponent, who happens to have a brilliant biochemist in his back pocket. Which increases the threat he posses greatly.

[Lix Lorn]

So swap around who's the lapdog. (Grin)

[Mystic Muse]

Not gonna be a fourth. Sorry. XD

why not?ten characters.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Ehh, questioning over government ambiguity still seems to have been done to death and back to me, while ecoterrorism could be something fairly new and interesting. Course it ain't up to me but that's how I feel about it..

Yet, when done well, it always has been a good movie. Done wrong, it's boring and soapboxing.

If you have a "Establishment Vs. Criminality", of Dangerous Gov Vs. Batman Vs. dangerous criminal, you don't put all the blame on the Government's shoulder. Just find a way to make it brillant, yet morally questionning.

Dark Knight was so awesome in that way.

[Piedmon_Sama]

I really wouldn't want Bane to be a mook villain, or have a "man behind the man" in the third movie (even if that man is Talia al-Ghul). When he was first introduced, Bane was an independent agent, out for the purpose of destroying Batman just to prove he was the best and working for no-one. The second time we see him, he's replaced Batman as the heir of Rhas-al-Ghul. People have a hard time buying Bane as a solo villain, I know, because of his huge muscles. But that's what (should make) him so terrifying. This is a guy who may not be a rocket scientist, but he's smart enough to plan an ambush, infiltrate defenses, and predict his opponents, and he's strong enough to knock your head off with a stray backhand. It's just not fair. Bane should evoke Ricardo Montalbaln in Star Trek II: strong enough to rip people apart, but with the intellect of a patient predator, wrapped up in a sinister Latin accent.

Like, well, The Predator, Bane's a terrifying solitary force who doesn't even bother to schmaltz the underworld and simply takes what he wants. That would be important in setting up him up as a different kind of threat than Heath Ledger's Joker. Joker had an elaborate scheme, and a point to make. Bane doesn't even have that; he doesn't bother with statements to the police or media, announces nothing about himself. He strikes and he's gone, like a dark mirror of The Bat himself.

[Lix Lorn]

Word Of God.

[Mystic Muse]

Word Of God.

ah. that would explain it.

[Mordar]

Hi all -

I like Harley as a bit-player ala Scarecrow in Dark Knight...she's treating Joker in Arkham...maybe all we see is her name on her desk/door and a few seconds of screentime discussing things.

I like Zsasz as a set-up man, maybe leading to King Snake in some form...all to set up the redemption of the Bane character in the fourth movie (should there be one) to complete the arc. Deadshot or maybe even Deathstroke could also fill the Zsasz role, but since we've already seen Zsasz, I think he should be included.

King Snake (or stand in...I had a much better idea long ago, right when DK came out...one of the No Man's Land bosses but I can't remember which...) could represent newly re-Organized Crime's efforts to retaliate for Batman's crime suppression, and he could take the "Bane Approach" and throw villian after villian at Bats, hoping to wear him down for the final coup de grace.

Thus, a series of non-super-powered, who individually are no match for Batman, can take their shots in sequence. This seemingly random sequence of events can be tied together in movie-magic-fashion to be the coordinated plan of a BBEG who is not an antisocial nutjob.

It has the benefit of introducing a few fanservice elements (minor to midlevel characters that otherwise wouldn't get a spot in moviedom) with a purpose, highlighting the breadth of the Batman Rogues Gallery without going to super powers.

Just wish I could think of my original idea...had a big toughguy (ala Rhino) in the mix, with Zsasz and one other noteworthy. Grrrr...

- M

[Dienekes]

Yet, when done well, it always has been a good movie. Done wrong, it's boring and soapboxing.

This describes just about any movie with a moral, or dark tones, or really, just about any movie ever. I just think we can push for something new in the thought provoking department rather than an old(er) trend. On the whole I can think of quite a few movies off the top of my head about government moral questionability, environmentalists? Not so much, and I maintain it could be very interesting (as a point of fact, the only one I can think of is Poison Ivy). But whatever it is, I have some faith Nolan and co. will pull it off well.

and Piedmon_Sama, yeah that is the Bane I would like to see. He would need some form of manipulation to get what his goals are though, or some other outside force as well. As a movie of Bane randomly appearing out of nowhere to go up against Bats is a bit too simplistic. You can only get so many personal duels between characters before it becomes too much.

[SolkaTruesilver]

and Piedmon_Sama, yeah that is the Bane I would like to see. He would need some form of manipulation to get what his goals are though, or some other outside force as well. As a movie of Bane randomly appearing out of nowhere to go up against Bats is a bit too simplistic. You can only get so many personal duels between characters before it becomes too much.

Except that a duel for a duel's sake is everything that Nolan been against in the past Batman. All the battles had a very determined meaning.

[Piedmon_Sama]

Except that a duel for a duel's sake is everything that Nolan been against in the past Batman. All the battles had a very determined meaning.

Chris Nolan may disagree, but there's something I've always found fascinating and more than a little terrifying behind the philosophy of "being the best at all costs," and I mean particularly in the field of being a badass. It's a common trope, but what does it really mean, to be the best fighter/killer in the world? Why would someone want that for themselves--and does it really elevate them in some way? With Bane, I think it would recall the first film quite nicely. He was born in a prison, thrown on the streets, and fought his whole childhood to survive. He's always been afraid, of the next beating, of starving, of being powerless. That's his deep-down fear, just like Bruce Wayne's fear is being powerless against the smothering darkness represented for him in The Bat, powerless against evil. Bane wants to climb to the top of whatever F'd-up totem-pole violent men rank themselves by, because in his world you either control fear or you're a victim of it.

You're right that that's not going to come across if Bane never explains himself, and I didn't mean that he never should. The best monsters get slowly revealed by degrees. To go back to the Predator: first we see its weaponry, when it kills Hawkins and Jessie Ventura from behind. Then we see the blur of its camofluage in the jungle. Then we see it as a creature in a mask. Finally, the mask is taken off, and we see its horrible face. Then at the end we get a hint of the Predator's personality (it challenges Arnold hand-to-hand, suggesting it's stalking the men for sport and thrill. When Arnold cripples the Predator, it activates its self-destruct and laughs, because like a child when it's beaten at its own game it throws the board across the table.)

We'd know from the opening scene that this huge guy is gunning for Batman "for himself," but not what that means. We actually see Bane first off as an ordinary (but terrifying) human, when he enters Gotham and starts stalking crooks to get to Batman. Around the 2/3rds mark of the movie, after his initial skirmish with Batman and his busting out Scarecrow, he explains to Crane why he's hunting Batman. Then the final time we see him, he faces down Batman equipped with Venom; activating it causes a monstrous transformation, grossly distorting his muscles as he laughs and laughs, even as his veins bulge and tendons pop. Bane's "real form" and his philosophy of "best at all costs" gets pushed to its logical conclusion (and delivers the satisfaction of the last reveal) when he's finally turned into a monster, and defeated by his own juice.

At the same time, you have the Riddler attacking Batman the whole film on the opposite front: with his mind. Whereas Bane is pure ruthlessness and power, Nigma believes in mind alone and cheekily trumpets his own superiority to Gordon & crew. During the final confrontation, he emerges alone and we'd get a shot of poor Riddler dwarfed by the mutated Bane just before he's smashed aside, clever but not brutal enough to survive in the world of killers.

Anyway, I think you could get a lot of thematic potential out of the pairing, but the super-drug thing is probably too "supernatural" for Nolan's tastes.

EDIT: Oh yeah, I haven't outright said this yet but in my mind Movie-Bane wouldn't be wearing that Lucha Mask. You might include some kind of hood with the venom apparatus, but wouldn't go over the top with it.

[SolkaTruesilver]

But Batmanolan isn't Predator.

It's not an action-driven movie. It's a story-driven one. Batman is about dramatics, not action scenes (again, remember the bad curve Batman & Robin took).

It's just... while I love Edward Nigma's ideas thrown around, I just don't see where Bane might be an ennemy to Batman beyond pure physical threat. I understand that Bane is a pure Nemesis, one that tracks you down to kill you. But.. seriously. This would be so much of a letdown after the Dark Knight, where you had very strong (not always coherent) motivations for the bad guys to be antagonists to Batman.

"I want to kill him to honor revenge" <--- very bad evil motivation
"I want to spread fear/chaos and tear appart society for X" <-- simplistic but good motivation
"Batman is responsible for my true love's death" <-- good motivation

Find me an interesting plot line with Bane, and I will be with you 100%. Make him interesting, on a society level. Or criminal level. Or anything. Just more than merely Batman's antagonist or a hitman.

[Piedmon_Sama]

I'd disagree that the last two Batman movies haven't been action-driven films. You're drawing that distinction because they're good action movies (and Predator is, too). What makes an action movie good is that, as you say, there's consequences and motivations behind the violence. A contest between two characters is also a contest between two wills, or two worldviews, as Batman v. Ra's al-Ghul or Batman v. Joker was.

With Bane, you have a guy who does what he does because of a central driving nihilism. Or rather, it's the "existentialist" answer to Joker's nihilism. Joker thought society was built on lies and wanted to destroy it. Bane wants to take it over. In Bane's world, you're the hunter or hunted; victimizer or victim, killer or killed. This is, to some extent, the same thing that motivates Batman, and Bruce Wayne would know it. He might sense it lurking in Bane's actions, or pick it up from a few exchanges with the man. Deep down, Bruce Wayne is the little boy who got hurt by the world and decided to become that hurt and darkness, so he'd never be hurt again. Bane's much the same, he's just a lot more open about it. And he kills people.

An added wrinkle: Bane is, of course, not appearing in a vacuum. He's only the second "super-criminal" who has specifically targeted Gotham and Batman. Batman has to consider to what extent his own phobias and obsessions, that drive him to fight crime, are inspiring these similarly obsessed, violent people to converge on Gotham. Is Batman the thing that needs to go away for Gotham to be safe? He's got Edward Nigma and the cops, however reluctantly, on his tail to only further that worry in the meantime.

EDIT: All that said, I actually agree Bane probably can't support a film completely by himself. That's why Riddler would need to be in there, and his storyline would be equally important and probably given even more screentime up until the final battle. It's just that it's a lot easier to imagine what to do with Bane than with the highly-intricate mindgames and clue-chasing Riddler would be doing. You'd have him playing off Gordon, probably confronting Bruce Wayne face-to-face a few times, acting cocksure and untouchable, but also clever enough to win our admiration, to build up to that terrible moment when he becomes extremely vulnerable to the force of nature that is Bane.

[pita]

I like BRC's idea, but I don't think Bane should be involved with the League of Shadows.
I also have no idea who we would want for him.
I also think that an IQ of 240 is impossible. I seem to recall that it caps out at 180, but I'm not sure.

[Lix Lorn]

I *think* you can get huge IQs.

[RabbitHoleLost]

I'm really, really hoping for a Harley.
Treating Joker (though we'd never see him, just hear him), and he slowly twists her enough to use her as his puppet in the outside world.

...But I'm just a Harley fangirl.

[Lix Lorn]

...But I'm just a Harley fangirl.

Hmm, so that makes... the entire thread.

[pita]

I *think* you can get huge IQs.
Yes, but it was my understanding that 180 was the limit.
I know that 130 is genius level, which should be considered huge.

[Tavar]

The problem with huge IQ's is that the test works by relating your results to those around you. At either end of the spectrum it starts to break down, cause there aren't that many that you can relate to.

[Lix Lorn]

Actually, I think genius is 150. Very smart is 130. XD

[SolkaTruesilver]

With Bane, you have a guy who does what he does because of a central driving nihilism. Or rather, it's the "existentialist" answer to Joker's nihilism. Joker thought society was built on lies and wanted to destroy it. Bane wants to take it over. In Bane's world, you're the hunter or hunted; victimizer or victim, killer or killed. This is, to some extent, the same thing that motivates Batman, and Bruce Wayne would know it. He might sense it lurking in Bane's actions, or pick it up from a few exchanges with the man. Deep down, Bruce Wayne is the little boy who got hurt by the world and decided to become that hurt and darkness, so he'd never be hurt again. Bane's much the same, he's just a lot more open about it. And he kills people.

You'd have to be a darn good writer to make this character trait come across without falling into Hannibal Lecture

[Dienekes]

I always heard that Marilyn vos Savant was around the 200 level.

[pita]

Actually, I think genius is 150. Very smart is 130. XD

I heard genius was 130. Let's see what Wikipedia has to say.
It's got nothing.
Now shush, for I am winner.
The one thing I did find, is that 130-145 is moderately gifted and 145-160 is highly gifted. I have also not been proven wrong by Wikipedia since the highest score they are explaining for is above 175, which is profoundly gifted. I dunno, I would stick with 180 IQ.
Let the nitpicking end! Please!

[TheEmerged]

Under the harsh unforgiving light of Nolan's Gotham I don't know that the Riddler could survive being more then a cheap Joker knock-off. His main gimmick is just well, too silly. And is there any precedent for scaling him up to a truly major threat, it would be more him screwing with Bats just like Joker did last movie.

The Riddler is the 'hero' detective from another city, brought in to take down the murderous Batman.

See, that wasn't hard was it?


Same thing for the Mad Hatter. We already have Scarecrow if we need to play mind games with Bats.

Personally, I'd rather see Mad Hatter under the "Let's have a villain we haven't seen yet" clause. But you'd need to make changes to make him a little less madcap (pun intended).


Poison Ivy can be pruned (arrh!) into the setting without loosing her central cause I think, But I'm not sure where to go with her.

Unlikely. I think mine saying any more on that front would violale board rules.


The Ventriloquist or Black Mask could maybe work but either is a gangster with a specific gimmick. Bane is certainly possible but only quite feels right to me as part of some bigger plot, he'd need a partner of some nature.

Frankly? Bane, done right, would in-my-opinion make the best choice for a solo villain to the third movie. Catman (no, really!) would be a close second. Likelihood of seeing either "done right" approaches nil, naturally, but hope springs eternal and all that.


Still what really stands out is Talia, Talia, Talia. Its even a logical progression Bats has lost his not-girlfriend in last movie, so introduce her to capture his heart. Meanwhile someone is moving in on Gotham's crime world and sends some talented assasins afters Bats and/or Gordan, any villian who'd work for hire can be put here. And of course the mastermind is Talia.... or furthermore not her. Because you can never have enough Liam Neeson.

There's one problem with Talia.

Some people are under the opinion we've already seen her... and seen her killed off in the second movie. There are some hints in the first movie that the love-interest character was Ra's daughter.

Not that this is likely to matter if Nolan suddenly decides to use her, mind...

[Dienekes]

There's one problem with Talia.

Some people are under the opinion we've already seen her... and seen her killed off in the second movie. There are some hints in the first movie that the love-interest character was Ra's daughter.

Not that this is likely to matter if Nolan suddenly decides to use her, mind...

Yusaywhahuh?

Care to explain?

[BRC]

I heard genius was 130. Let's see what Wikipedia has to say.
It's got nothing.
Now shush, for I am winner.
The one thing I did find, is that 130-145 is moderately gifted and 145-160 is highly gifted. I have also not been proven wrong by Wikipedia since the highest score they are explaining for is above 175, which is profoundly gifted. I dunno, I would stick with 180 IQ.
Let the nitpicking end! Please!
I pulled 230 out of my hat. But you know.

The last two movies had one villain working for (In some way) another. Scarecrow was Ras Al Ghul's minion, The Joker more or less created Two Face. However, I don't think it's a definite rule we need to stick to, though it does make it easier to have things tied together as part of one story, so you don't have to split the film. For that reason, "Riddler releases Bane to use him as a thug to take down Batman" works, however, that reduces Bane, who has great potential to be an intelligent character, into one of the Riddler's pawns.

Also, who said anything about the League of Shadows?

[Soras Teva Gee]

There's one problem with Talia.

Some people are under the opinion we've already seen her... and seen her killed off in the second movie. There are some hints in the first movie that the love-interest character was Ra's daughter.

Not that this is likely to matter if Nolan suddenly decides to use her, mind...

That's the sort of thing that you file under the tin-foil-hat section of Tvtropes.

[Geiger Counter]

They just need some big guy in a mask to play bane and have heavy weapons guy gary shwartz voice him like the=y did to darth vader.

[Mystic Muse]

That's the sort of thing that you file under the tin-foil-hat section of Tvtropes.

yeah, that isn't a very plausible theory.:smallconfused:

[SolkaTruesilver]

They just need some big guy in a mask to play bane and have heavy weapons guy gary shwartz voice him like the=y did to darth vader.

No. You need a great actor to play Bane..

now.. who would be the best actor that still come off as incredibly beefy and scary?

...

would you consider the big black man of The Green Mile as a bad actor?

[Geiger Counter]

No. You need a great actor to play Bane..

now.. who would be the best actor that still come off as incredibly beefy and scary?

would you consider the big black man of The Green Mile as a bad actor?

It's a bit weird to have bane and kingpin played by the same guy.

[Stubbed Tongue]

I think Woody Harrelson could pull off the Riddler.

[The Demented One]

Neal Patrick Harris as the Music Meister.

/thread

[TheThan]

I think Ricardo Montalbaln would be the perfect choice to voice over Bane (ala Darth Vader style). Unfortunately we can’t have him anymore so I’ll go for Antonio Bandaras to voice him. The man wears a mask, so simply covering his mouth works well enough. As for someone to portray him on screen; you need someone physically large, athletic and experienced in that sort of work, a pro wrestler would fit the bill nicely. I’m not in the know on wrestling nowadays so I can’t really come up with a name.

[Mystic Muse]

...

would you consider the big black man of The Green Mile as a bad actor?

Michael Clarke Duncan? he's pretty good. (only assuming it's him because somebody mentioned the kingpin)

[Geiger Counter]

mr freeze no suit or ice gun, but is a butcher (probably a mobster) that kills people in a huge meat locker where he is used to the cold.

[kpenguin]

Neal Patrick Harris as the Music Meister.

/thread

You know, I'd say that this doesn't fit the flavor of the Nolanverse at all, but then...

It's NPH. As the MUSIC MEISTER.

Who cares if it doesn't make sense for the setting? It's awesome! :smalltongue:

[The Demented One]

Who cares if it doesn't make sense for the setting? It's awesome! :smalltongue:
I would be a terrible director. All my films would run on Exalted-logic.

[Tavar]

I would be a Totally Awesome director. All my films would run on Exalted-logic.

Fixed that for you.

[kpenguin]

When they reboot the Batman franchise again, I totally want to see a "Rule of Cool" TB&TB style Batman film.

[Ichneumon]

When they reboot the Batman franchise again, I totally want to see a "Rule of Cool" TB&TB style Batman film.

Yes, please. I want to see over-the-top far-fetched plots and awesome fight scenes with too much witty puns.

[Mystic Muse]

Yes, please. I want to see over-the-top far-fetched plots and awesome fight scenes with too much witty puns.

Me too!:smallbiggrin:

[The Demented One]

When they reboot the Batman franchise again, I totally want to see a "Rule of Cool" TB&TB style Batman film.
I would puppies for a TB&TB movie.

[Dienekes]

While I must admit that I do actually prefer broody dark Batman, (or at least BTAS Batman, which is a great blend of camp and brood). Seeing Camp Batman get some more screen time would be awesome. I fully endorse all steps taken in this regard. So long as it's good camp, and not, Batman and Robin camp.

[Lix Lorn]

I just want this one, with more supernatural. Did anyone watch the cartoon 'The Batman' with the awesome opening sequence? THAT was awesome, initially. I don't remember seeing it after Robin joined... but until then.

[pita]

I'm waiting for Batman VS Superman.
This is how it would go.
Superman (it could still be Brandon Routh, IMO) hears about crazy bat-guy in Gotham, and goes after him, just as Clark Kent is doing a piece on Batman, and speculating who he is. They fight. It's awesome.

[Lix Lorn]

I shy away from crossovers, normally. XD

[The Glyphstone]

And I'm pretty sure Nolan has ruled it out - in his verse, there aren't any mutants or superpowered people, so there is no Metropolis or Superman.

[SolkaTruesilver]

And I'm pretty sure Nolan has ruled it out - in his verse, there aren't any mutants or superpowered people, so there is no Metropolis or Superman.

I think they were talking about the next Reboot that will happen.

But... hum.. if one Batman is highly successful and ends in triumph, will there be a need to reboot? I mean.. this isn't B&R...

[V for Victory]

I personally think it would be cool if the Royal Flush Gang was running around gotham doing stuff like embezzling and corporate crimes. Then Batman tries to punch it in the face, fails and needs to take them down as Bruce Wayne

But knowing what Christopher Nolan has done he will probably turn the Riddler into an autistic version of saw or mabye he'll make Killer Croc into Lenny from "Mice and Men".

[Dienekes]

I think they were talking about the next Reboot that will happen.

But... hum.. if one Batman is highly successful and ends in triumph, will there be a need to reboot? I mean.. this isn't B&R...

Hahah, dude you can make the greatest movie of all time, with the most definitive ending ever made. If enough fanboys are still existing (and if it is highly successful that's all the more likely) they'll be a reboot eventually to take all their hard earned money. It's just too profitable to not.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Hahah, dude you can make the greatest movie of all time, with the most definitive ending ever made. If enough fanboys are still existing (and if it is highly successful that's all the more likely) they'll be a reboot eventually to take all their hard earned money. It's just too profitable to not.

They will do a continuation of the serie, not a reboot with a completely different style. They won't change the very style that made the serie so successfull.

And that is what worries me. Would Nolan be forced to make a Batman 4? Would he refuse, and we'd put somebody else in his seat?

Would Joss Whedon write a Batman movie?

[Dienekes]

They will do a continuation of the serie, not a reboot with a completely different style. They won't change the very style that made the serie so successfull.

And that is what worries me. Would Nolan be forced to make a Batman 4? Would he refuse, and we'd put somebody else in his seat?

Would Joss Whedon write a Batman movie?

Ahhh, I misunderstood you. I thought you were implying there'd be no more movies.

But personally, I'd place my money on trying to replace Nolan (and possibly Bale) making 1 mediocre movie and then a reboot in a decade (or maybe less, looking at how fast Marvel reboots seem to be popping up)

And really, your pick is Whedon? Not who I would have thought of first, but ok.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Ahhh, I misunderstood you. I thought you were implying there'd be no more movies.

But personally, I'd place my money on trying to replace Nolan (and possibly Bale) making 1 mediocre movie and then a reboot in a decade (or maybe less, looking at how fast Marvel reboots seem to be popping up)

And really, your pick is Whedon? Not who I would have thought of first, but ok.

You wanted it witty, slightly campy, pun-y, yet awesome...

Who else?

[pita]

I do not want Whedon on Batman.
I like the guy, but as far as DC superheroes go, the only one I'd want him anywhere near is Flash. He's much better for Marvel superheroes like Spiderman or the X-Men.

[SolkaTruesilver]

I do not want Whedon on Batman.
I like the guy, but as far as DC superheroes go, the only one I'd want him anywhere near is Flash. He's much better for Marvel superheroes like Spiderman or the X-Men.

Yet, you DO realise that you would have Summer Glau in a Batman movie?

Maybe as Batgirl?

hmm... Batman Vs. River Tam... :smallbiggrin:
:smallsmile:
:smallconfused:
:smalleek:


I AM BLINDED BY THE AWESOME!!!

[pita]

We'd have Summer Glau playing a crazy chick. Haven't we had enough of that? (No, we haven't)
Summer Glau would be much better in an X-Men movie anyway.

[Lix Lorn]

And that is what worries me. Would Nolan be forced to make a Batman 4? Would he refuse, and we'd put somebody else in his seat?
Douglas Adams wanted to stop after three.

Joss Whedon is just awesome in general. [/fangirl]

[Dacia Brabant]

Let's see, Ra's wanted Gotham to tear itself apart because he believed society had grown too decadent and needed to be cleansed so a new order could be imposed on it.

Joker wanted Gotham to tear itself apart because he believed order and society are based on lies and he wanted to laugh at their hypocrisy as they destroyed themselves.

So we need a villain who...is neither of these things, but still wants Gotham to destroy itself for some reason. I dunno, the first thing that comes to my mind honestly is Poison Ivy as the ecoterrorist who wants to cut out the cancer of civilization in order to save the patient, which is the planet. Maybe she engineers some kind of virus that's spread or activated through consumption of animal-based products? Just a thought.

This could easily backfire though if it came across as an environmental lecture, or if she were not sympathetic enough, or of course if her scheme involved too much pseudo-science/magic to be plausible in Nolanverse Batman. But I'm struggling to think of any other Batman villain who hasn't already been used, who believably seeks to destroy society as a whole.

Actually, if Poison Ivy is still too campy, she could always be replaced with Talia and have the motivations stay basically the same--society needs to be "pruned" so it doesn't become unsustainable, or something, which I think was Ra's motivation in other sources anyway. Plus the love/hate relationship with Bruce/Batman would be very workable that way, and could potentially lead to Bruce hanging up the Batsuit if she gives up her methods and instead partners with him to create a better future for Gotham and the world.

Which of course means that whichever secondary villain she's manipulated into destroying Batman (my vote is Killer Croc) turns on her and Bruce has to become Batman again to save her at the end. Cue Hollywood ending.

[paddyfool]

Summer Glau... wouldn't really work in a Batman movie. But if you did have her, say as an older Cassandra Cain, you could throw in Michelle Yeoh as Lady Shiva, alongside, say, Randy Couture as David Cain.

That would be if you wanted to make it a Kung Fu movie, of course.

[Telonius]

No. You need a great actor to play Bane..

now.. who would be the best actor that still come off as incredibly beefy and scary?

...

would you consider the big black man of The Green Mile as a bad actor?

Michael Duncan would be good. So would Tiny Lister, except they already used him in Dark Knight.

Andre the Giant would have been the ideal. :smallfrown:

[Lix Lorn]

Summer Glau + anything = awesome. (Grin)

I still think the Riddler/Bane plot was the best yet.

[Dr.Epic]

How 'bout Poison Ivy, Bane, Dr. Freeze? They'd work great in a movie!

[Lix Lorn]

They COULD work.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Michael Duncan would be good. So would Tiny Lister, except they already used him in Dark Knight.

Andre the Giant would have been the ideal. :smallfrown:

I sadly having a hard time imaginating Fezzik being anything but friendly.

And anyway, Andre wasn't in any shape to do a proper action scene.

[ThePhantasm]

And that is what worries me. Would Nolan be forced to make a Batman 4? Would he refuse, and we'd put somebody else in his seat?


Nolan has said in the past that he only works on films one at a time, not with sequels in mind, and he only will direct a film if he believes the story is really worth it. I'd say a #4 would be unlikely for Nolan - I think he has a few other projects in mind that he wants to work on.

[Telonius]

I sadly having a hard time imaginating Fezzik being anything but friendly.

And anyway, Andre wasn't in any shape to do a proper action scene.

Oh man, no memories of early 80s wrestling? In his prime, he would have been perfect for it. He played one of the best villains in WWF history.

[Mordar]

Summer Glau... wouldn't really work in a Batman movie. But if you did have her, say as an older Cassandra Cain, you could throw in Michelle Yeoh as Lady Shiva, alongside, say, Randy Couture as David Cain.

That would be if you wanted to make it a Kung Fu movie, of course.

You know, Batman would be fantastic as a kung fu movie so long as the wire-fighting was minimized...maybe more Matrix then Crouching Tiger, but without quite so much "bullet time". Has anyone seen Ninja Assassin? From the trailers, that might be the right speed style, with the "DragonAge" blood effect turned off...

- M

[SolkaTruesilver]

Oh man, no memories of early 80s wrestling? In his prime, he would have been perfect for it. He played one of the best villains in WWF history.

Early 80s wrestling?

Hum, born in 85. So.. err.. no. Le Geant Ferre (his original french nickname) is only known to me through the affectionnate giant.

He'd have done better playing in Men and Mice.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Would Joss Whedon write a Batman movie?
Way they tell it, Gotham-that-was got all used up. Folks who could, made their way out to the rest of the lands. Colonized the wild places out there, made a way of their own. Time come 'round, the government took to regulatin' them. Some folks took objection to that. Fellow by the name of Bruce Wayne, he got together a bunch of folk...

[SolkaTruesilver]

Way they tell it, Gotham-that-was got all used up. Folks who could, made their way out to the rest of the lands. Colonized the wild places out there, made a way of their own. Time come 'round, the government took to regulatin' them. Some folks took objection to that. Fellow by the name of Bruce Wayne, he got together a bunch of folk...

Whedon is better than that.

He's not the kind to re-use old plot. He might have a definite style, but he don't copy-paste plots. He'd come up with a good one.

[paddyfool]

Early 80s wrestling?

Hum, born in 85. So.. err.. no. Le Geant Ferre (his original french nickname) is only known to me through the affectionnate giant.

He'd have done better playing in Men and Mice.

What are you talking about? He was born in 1946. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andr%C3%A9_the_Giant)

[The Glyphstone]

What are you talking about? He was born in 1946. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andr%C3%A9_the_Giant)

I think he was talking about himself, not Andre.:smallwink:

[Tavar]

What are you talking about? He was born in 1946. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andr%C3%A9_the_Giant)

I think he was talking about when he was born, not when Andre was.

[SolkaTruesilver]

I think he was talking about when he was born, not when Andre was.

Indeed! so it's kinda hard for me to have watched Andre fighting in the early 80's, eh? :smallbiggrin:

[Thane of Fife]

Maybe a bit out of left field, but I've always kind of liked the Clock King (I think that was his name). You know, the one who always had everything perfectly timed? I have no idea what you'd do with him, though.


How 'bout Poison Ivy, Bane, Dr. Freeze? They'd work great in a movie!

That was... cold.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Maybe a bit out of left field, but I've always kind of liked the Clock King (I think that was his name). You know, the one who always had everything perfectly timed? I have no idea what you'd do with him, though.


You know what?
I like that idea.



That was... cold.

I hate you so much

[Tavar]

Well, the Clock King thrives on control, yes? So he's a reaction to the Joker. Perhaps he worked on Batman's Sonar Vision project, and uses an upgraded form of that, along with something more time based. Not sure what, though. It's hard to think of ways he can be dangerous, realistic enough, and true to his theme.

[The Glyphstone]

You know what?
I like that idea.



I hate you so much

You really need to chill, it's not ice to get so upset.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Well, the Clock King thrives on control, yes? So he's a reaction to the Joker. Perhaps he worked on Batman's Sonar Vision project, and uses an upgraded form of that, along with something more time based. Not sure what, though. It's hard to think of ways he can be dangerous, realistic enough, and true to his theme.

Get a cookie!


http://www.babble.com/CS/blogs/strollerderby/2009/06/chocolate_chip_cookie.jpg

I LOVE IT! This is the perfect tie-in!

You have a sociopath/?????? that wishes to overly control the city. He doesn't want to destroy Gotham, he wants to rigitise it. Make it so "perfect" that is has no soul. He even abuses Batman's techniques and technologies.

[WitchSlayer]

I wonder how Nolan's going to do on the Superman movie.

[BRC]

Well, the Clock King thrives on control, yes? So he's a reaction to the Joker. Perhaps he worked on Batman's Sonar Vision project, and uses an upgraded form of that, along with something more time based. Not sure what, though. It's hard to think of ways he can be dangerous, realistic enough, and true to his theme.
He might function well as a mastermind type. Using perfectly coordinated plans to pull off impossible heists. Of course, "We can't stop him! He's planned things too precisely!" Dosn't really work.

[Otogi]

Kiteman, obviously; he's interesting, non-mainstream, realistic and in B&tB has a rather interesting origin's story as well goal.

EDIT: Okay, not really, but I'd be pretty psyched if they did make a reference to some Silver Age villains. But really, I'm all aboard for the Riddler.

[The Glyphstone]

Kiteman? Please tell me there's more to this character than what sounds like a ridiculously cheesy and cheap gimmick.

[Otogi]

Kiteman? Please tell me there's more to this character than what sounds like a ridiculously cheesy and cheap gimmick.

Well, as a child, he wanted to recreate the experiment of Benjamin Franklin, but without the proper safety gear! When he was hit by lighting, the chemicals in his brain forced him to become evil! Now he robs banks and areas of scientific endeavor to fund his mad, kite-themed crimes! He continue until he brings Gotham, and perhaps the world, unless Batman stops him (or if Christian Bale yells at him for his kites interrupting his acting method)!

[The Glyphstone]

...you snuck in an edit, that's not fair.:smallsmile:

[ThePhantasm]

No, no Kiteman. How about Crazy Quilt? :smallbiggrin::smallwink:

[Ganurath]

Has anyone considered the possibility that Mr. Nygma is the detective assigned to tracking down the vigilante that murdered the White Knight of Gotham, a crime boss, and a cop?

[The Glyphstone]

Only two or three times per page in the entire thread...so probably not.

[Otogi]

No, no Kiteman. How about Crazy Quilt? :smallbiggrin::smallwink:

Well, I'd say CQ, but his origin seems to heavily tied to Batman doing something to him, and continuity is pretty tight on time. Also, the way he conducts his crimes can be unrealistic, unlike Kiteman, who only needs hang gliders and other wind powered devices, which can actually make a good hostage scenario or bomb plot; maybe it can even be hijacked military Kill SAT.

[Dienekes]

No, no Kiteman. How about Crazy Quilt? :smallbiggrin::smallwink:

Ahh, Crazy Quilt. Still my go to guy for stupid awesome comic villain.

[Zen Monkey]

Two-Face likely already has one of the villain spots locked, because the actor has been confirmed for another film. Of course, it could just be for a lot of flashbacks I guess. Three seems like a lot of characters to give proper screen time, so that probably only leaves one spot. Scarecrow is still around, but using those two wouldn't bring enough 'new' to the film.

Idea:
Gotham's mob needs new ways to launder money, so they use the city's new casino. As a means to secure their assets, the gangs unite under the mysterious leader who runs the corrupt casino and can protect all of their assets. Batman spends most of the movie trying to find this man's identity, and in the big surprise of the film, the new villain is revealed as a woman!
Behold... PokerFace
P-p-po-po-PokerFace!
-cue techno music fight scene

Seriously, Vin Diesel as Bane could work, or some body builder with voice dubbing by Keith David. There could also be another surviving student from the ninja school in the first movie, and have a Kyodai Ken sort of character coming to replace Batman.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Two-Face likely already has one of the villain spots locked, because the actor has been confirmed for another film. Of course, it could just be for a lot of flashbacks I guess. Three seems like a lot of characters to give proper screen time, so that probably only leaves one spot. Scarecrow is still around, but using those two wouldn't bring enough 'new' to the film.


I be requesting a link!

[pita]

I be requesting a link!

I distinctly remember an interview with Aaron Eckhart where he said that he asked Christopher Nolan whether he's returning in a possible sequel, and Nolan told him he was dead. When he continued and asked, Nolan insisted that he's dead.

[Piedmon_Sama]

Haha poor Aaron Eckhart got to play the villain for like 7 minutes.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Haha poor Aaron Eckhart got to play the villain for like 7 minutes.

But he played a helluva good guy in that movie.

I think his performance was underrated. He simply got overshadowed by Ledger, who was simply brillant.

[Mauther]

I think his performance was underrated. He simply got overshadowed by Ledger, who was simply brillant.

And to add insult to injury, he can't even complain about it without looking like a complete jerk.

[Mauther]

I would laugh at most of these suggestions, but they managed to make the Scarecrow actually intimidating. So I could actually see someone like Clock King being pulled off. Its jumping franchises a little bit, but I'd pay double to see Chairface Chippendale as the villian.

[kpenguin]

I, personally, think that Aaron Eckhart did a better performance than Heath Ledger.

[Lix Lorn]

I don't. XD But he was very convincing.

[Robert Blackletter]

I, personally, think that Aaron Eckhart did a better performance than Heath Ledger.

I agree, he stole the show, I presonally think that if Mr Ledger was alive we be screaming about Aaron Eckhart performance and noting Ledger's as merely very good (though I think both were brillent and reward worthy, Eckhart was better IMO but....)

[SolkaTruesilver]

I agree, he stole the show, I presonally think that if Mr Ledger was alive we be screaming about Aaron Eckhart performance and noting Ledger's as merely very good (though I think both were brillent and reward worthy, Eckhart was better IMO but....)

I disagree :smallwink:

[Dienekes]

Nah, Ledger owned every scene he was in. Eckhardt was merely freakin' spectacular. But part of why TDK is considered to be the best comic movie is because all the actors played their parts perfectly.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Nah, Ledger owned every scene he was in. Eckhardt was merely freakin' spectacular. But part of why TDK is considered to be the best comic movie is because all the actors played their parts perfectly.

I really don't understand the flak Bale takes for his act. IMHO, he gets Batman across quite well. As Bruce Wayne, he really acts as the guy who tries to act rich and jerky. That double-acting, which is just... Hard.

And as Bruce Wayne genuine, he always came of to me as someone who is deeply conflicted about actions to take, to never make a mistake. His relationship with Alfred is just so strong in that movie.

Nobody ever comments on Alfred's actor. He's awesome, no?

[Tavar]

Michael Caine? Heck yeah he's awesome. He's been in a lot of stuff, too.

[Dienekes]

No one comments on Michael Caine because he's so awesome it's just become commonplace for him.

As for Bale, he's great and the worthy center of the series. In my experience anyway no one makes fun of his acting per se, he gets the conflict, the moodiness, the pent up anger down pat. People do make fun of the "Batman rasp" which I think is partially on the feet of the director as well. Really, I was never bothered by this as it showed that Wayne was smart enough to disguise his voice. However, there were several scene in which it was unnecessary, the one that sticks out is between him and Lucius Fox. Fox already knows Bruce is Batman, there is no reason for him to be talking like that. I think there were a few others as well, but none so glaring as that.

[ThePhantasm]

This is all fine and dandy, but could we keep talking about who the next villain should be?

I also wouldn't mind seeing the Black Mask be the villain. I think he would be a creepy, realistic villain, and his backstory is kinda parallel to Wayne's.

[Randel]

Some ideas:

Lock-Up (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lock-Up_%28comics%29):
Imagine Gotham City where there was a sudden rise in the number of costumed crazies both as villains and heroes. For a while it was hell as they were put away to Arkham and then broke out to terrorize again... and the media caught all the big juicy events.

Then they get a new Chief of Security for Arkham Asylum, Lyle Bolton a big muscular man who is a virtual genius with security systems and always pleasant to be around.

As soon as he gets on the job the break-outs stop. Old villains never break out again and maybe one or two of them are released as being cured. The ones released are all changed men, much quieter, more overweight and less athletic and the second they get out they get the hell out of Gotham and never look back.

Then, after several months or even years of this, one inmate manages to break out of Arkham and Batman tracks him down. Its the Scarecrow and he's gibbering like more of a madman than usual. He never even tried to commit a crime other than stealing a car to get out of Gotham... and his plan after that was to get out of the US and simply vanish off the map. Bats gets him back to Arkham and Lyle Bolton arrives personally with some guards to make sure Scarecrow gets back in securely. Lyle profusely apologies about this lapse in security and thanks Batman for his help. Meanwhile scarecrow is whimpering as he is being brought back inside.


Batman starts investigating and finds out that Bolton is using harsh methods to keep all the inmates in line... and by 'harsh' I mean electrifying their doors, beating them to within an inch of their lives if they try to excercise, supplimenting their diet with so much high fat content that many of them become so grossly overweight and out of shape they couldn't outrun anyone if their lives depended on it, depriving them of sleep so much that its impossible to even think about escaping even if such a thing was physically possible in the fortress Lyle turned the place into, and enforcing a near 24-hour 'quiet time' on the inmate population to eliminate rude language.

The other guards enjoy the new Arkham since Lyle has enough mean in him to keep pretty much the whole inmate population well-behaved without them having to get dirty themselves. The doctors like it that the patiants are now much safer to treat. And Gotham City is happy that the Joker had died both hilariously and tragically in an escape attempt less than 72 hours after Bolton took his job (Officially, the Joker had tried escaping through the laundry chute and had gotten every bone in his body smashed during spin cycle, then the managed to crawl to an air vent and accidentally got himself jammed into the furnace where he was burned to a skeleton... then the search dogs ripped his skeleton apart).


Bolton is charged with abusing the inmates but remains perfectly calm throughout the hearing even after several frightened inmates list off the abuses they suffered. When evidence of the truth to this comes to light, Bolton admits to going 'a bit beyond the law' to enforce security in the inmates (he claims full responsibility and denies anyone else took part in it) but says he did it all to protect the citizens of Gotham.

Bolton is relieved of his position and he leaves quietly. Now that he's no longer in charge of security at Arkham and the conditions are laxed then several of the second-string villains in the Asylum are free to call on 'old friends' who help them break out.

Meanwhile, Bolton is at home with his loving wife and children (I imagine him as sort of a stereotypical fifties dad or something... totally traditional family values, loves his wife and kids although a bid distant and a little locked up. He never lets the fact that he tortures drugged out maniacs like Bane into whimpering puddles of pain to enforce utter and unquestioning obedience and terror in his Asylum hurt his family.) and he's doing something mundane like looking for new work when criminals target his family and take his kids hostage as revenge for his treatment of their boss.

Cue rest of the movie as Batman is dealing with the sudden escapes of lots of low-tier but still costumed criminals while Bolton gets himself a bulletproof suit and prepares to rescue his family using his own combat training and knowledge of security systems. "Lock-Up" would probably be working along with the police or something on some level since he's still an expert with security systems and has extensive knowledge of the people they are after.

Lock-Up could probably turn into a full-grown villain or at cross the line of violent vigilantism at some point if his family gets hurt. He'd have absolutly no qualms with killing criminals or crippling them for life to get what he wants. And of course in the end, even if his family gets out of the ordeal unscathed, Bolton could be perfectly fine with getting deemed an insane criminal and getting locked up in Arkham with the rest of the psychos...

after all, in Arkaham he has better access to the other inmates to keep an eye on them, is a better security expert than anyone else who ever worked in that place, and could probably brutalize every villain in that place until they begged for death and nobody would toss him out again. Besides, if anyone tried going for his family again, he could either hold other villains hostage or break out at his own leisure. His family could visit him regululary and he probably has some sort of pension thing to help them out.


Or whatever, I like Lock-Out as a character since he has a pretty cool and rather valid motivation. He hates how crummy the security is at Arkham. In his episode he did go a bit nuts (okay, really super crazy nuts) when he was fired and started locking up politicians and members of the Liberal Media who he considered the root cause of the crime conditions of Gotham.

In the No Mans Land arc in the comics (when Gotham was turned into a post-apocalyptic hell after an earthquake and cut off from the rest of the country) then Lock-Up took over one of the Prisons and basically helped Batman out by having a place where Bats could dump criminals without them getting out again. Considering that there was pretty much NO FOOD getting into the city at all even for the people just trying to survive in the city proper and all thought of law and order went out the window... Lock-Up did a fairly decent job of keeping the creeps in line (even if there were a few skeletons on the floor of the one cell he shoved all the villain inmates into and he had no qualms at all with letting the whole lot of them drown in a flood to free up supplies for other people).

Lock-Up is pretty much Lawful Evil towards inmates under his control and those he deems 'part of the problem'. But seems to be a pretty nice guy towards those he thinks are fighting the good fight (well, offered to help Batman clean up the town until Batman told he's crazy).

For the movie version, I think he'd best be played as the sort of guy who never looks angry. Like he's perpetually Locked Up his emotions so tight they never escape. If angry he never yells or screams or loses his cool, he just gets to the beating while dispassionately explaining why the beating is necessary.


---


Okay, others would include:

Bane: not really a good main villain unless the movie is about a really tough drugged up assassin who is out to kill Batman personally. Could be a decent dragon, or a minor but tough thug for him to beat (like if there is the mass breakout).

Clock King: A calculating mastermind who helps other crooks plan heists. Maybe works for a mob boss until he takes over the operation.

Mad Hatter: A crazy guy who kills people to take their nice hats. (I recall an ep of the camp 80's live action batman show where Mad Hatter had some sort of death machine that killed people and cremated their corpses so he could keep their hats. He already had a bakers hat and a policemans hat and he was wanting Batmans cowl for his collection).

Harley Quinn: Maybe a cameo appearance as an inmate or a copycat villain or something.

Roxy Rocket: She's a crazy daredevil woman who mostly pulls off heists for the thrill and the danger. Cameo or mook appearance, possibly involving her on a motorcycle for high speed chases, using demolitions or a flare gun.

[pita]

The Lock Up idea works in a TV series, or in a movie where Batman isn't a wanted fugitive.
I would have a cameo of Amy Acker as Harleen Quinzell, a court ordered psychologist for the Joker who accuses Batman of being the cause of the Joker's insanity, sharing a story about how he got his scars from Batman assaulting him. I can't really think of a role for her as a main villain, or a good secondary one, but I think a cameo would be awesome. And Amy Acker is awesome too. She needs to be Harley. You could also have a guy in charge of Arkham called Lyle Bolton.
I think the best route to go for this movie is to have Alan Tudyk as Edward Nygma, the head of the Batman task force, who is hunting Batman, and give Batman the dilemma of whether to harm an innocent person to keep up the facade, which has already been established as unnecessary. Possibly have another "real" bad guy like Bane or the Penguin, so that people won't be alarmed by teh moral ambiguity.

[Jerthanis]

I really don't understand the flak Bale takes for his act. IMHO, he gets Batman across quite well. As Bruce Wayne, he really acts as the guy who tries to act rich and jerky. That double-acting, which is just... Hard.

The trick is that he does neither with any degree of subtlety. When he's Bruce Wayne, his 'is seriously screwed in the head' plays out all over his face in every scene like he's playing Patrick Bateman again.

When he's Batman he's "GROWLGRR GRARR!" all the time. I'm not just talking about the Rasp, it's that his actions in every scene are completely predictable. When we see Joker in Interrogation and Lights come up and Batman's in there with him it's like, "Oh, he's gonna play one player table tennis with Joker's face" and then it happens.

[Lix Lorn]

That's a problem with the characters, not the acting. That's how batman is. XD

I think you're underestimating Bane. Go listen to Batman: Nightfall, it portrays him excellently. Bane is a much stronger (not literally) villain thatn you asre giving credit for. Give him a chance.

BTW, Lock-Up sounds pretty cool. He could work well.

[kpenguin]

It's probably unfair of me to compare animation to live action, but I feel Kevin Conroy had a more nuanced performance as both Batman and Bruce Wayne in BTAS than Christian Bale in the Nolan films.

[pita]

It's probably unfair of me to compare animation to live action, but I feel Kevin Conroy had a more nuanced performance as both Batman and Bruce Wayne in BTAS than Christian Bale in the Nolan films.

Agreed on both counts. Kevin Conroy was more nuanced, but it's unfair to compare animation to live action. Mark Hamill is not a good actor (Part of my dislike for the original Star Wars comes from this, but another part is due to nerds idealizing the movie. It was decent, it wasn't the single greatest thing ever), but his voice work on the Joker has led to him being my favorite Joker - definitely better than Jack Nicholson, and better than Heath Ledger though I would accept opinions to the contrary as being valid though stupid.

[SolkaTruesilver]

but his voice work on the Joker has led to him being my favorite Joker - definitely better than Jack Nicholson, and better than Heath Ledger though I would accept opinions to the contrary as being valid though stupid.

You are stupid! :smalltongue:

But again, agreed. You just cannot compare a Live Action movie with an aminated serie. The pace and behavior is just not the same.

Personnally, I preferred Bale to Keaton. (oc Clooney). Keaton just came across as a.. I dunno. He seemed like a sexually impotant Bruce Wayne who was waiting for the moment to expose himself to the first lady that would investigate.

But maybe it was the writing?

[Dienekes]

It's probably unfair of me to compare animation to live action, but I feel Kevin Conroy had a more nuanced performance as both Batman and Bruce Wayne in BTAS than Christian Bale in the Nolan films.

There is a reason why the BTAS is considered "The One True Batman."

Conroy, Hamill, Hastings, Ansara, Moll, and Sorkin so defined their roles that all later years could only shake their head in sadness that they could never play it as good as them.

That said, I still enjoyed many of the movie portrayals, Keaton always seemed flat to me, especially as Bruce Wayne, and don't even get me started on any of the performances over the Schumacher years. But saying a performance isn't nearly as good as BTAS I'd still take as a compliment.

[Jerthanis]

That's a problem with the characters, not the acting. That's how batman is. XD

No, Batman is good at leading a double life such that no one would suspect him. Bruce Wayne should be played as a person that if his identity was revealed, everyone would say, "What, him? No way!"... Nolan's Bale Batman would get fingered by anyone who even bothered to look.

Bale as Wayne reminds me of Cartman in the recent episode of South Park where he portrays a masked vigilante and then goes around the next day saying, "I don't think there's room in this town for his vigilante justice." and handing out "Who is the 'Raccoon'?" T-shirts.

EDIT: I knew it would censor out Cartman's superhero identity... it is South Park after all.

[Dienekes]

That's a problem with the Batman character really. No portrayal has ever made it not obvious Bruce was Batman.

Burton's Batman, Bruce was a loner type that no one ever really saw or knew anything about. He just had that big house and all that cash. Yeah, that's where I'd start looking.

Adam West, well, I'm not touching that one.

BTAS slight voice change, done pretty well actually. Still would be the first place to go looking what with the money and all. And his aggressive pro-everyone good for Gotham stance that he takes up whenever you see him in his public life makes him a huge red flag. The guy so passionate about Gotham? Yeah, he's the one who might be crazy enough to dress up like a rodent to protect it.

Batman: Year One at least addresses this that one of the very first people that Gordon goes after is Bruce. It is then heavily implied that Gordon did identify Bruce but passed it off that he "didn't have his glasses on". This is also toyed with again in No Man's Land in that Gordon implies that he's known for awhile but never actively goes looking for proof. (There are probably others, but these are the two that stick out for me the most)

Nolanverse at least acts like a massive tool. The kind of idiot that would burn down their own mansion while mindbogglingly drunk and gallivant around with supermodels, getting so bored at business meetings that he falls asleep. Still not the best, his complete opinion change while talking to Dent was a a red flag. I preferred his reactions in Begins where it seems like he really just doesn't care (making a bad joke and then going for a swim).

[Klose_the_Sith]

Adam West, well, I'm not touching that one.

Adam West will always be the best Batman ever :smallbiggrin:

[Soras Teva Gee]

That's a problem with the Batman character really. No portrayal has ever made it not obvious Bruce was Batman.

This is a pet peeve of mine about secret identities but... sure it looks obvious to us since we know both sides of the story. However the vast vast majority of people in-universe have never met Batman or Bruce Wayne, and fewer still have met both. And more then once, hopefully with something resembling a calm state of mind too pick up details like some similarity of voice or jawlines or whatever.

In more then one incarnation Batman has been shown to be almost a myth to the general public. They know him but are as inclined to believe he actually flies as swing on a Batarang or has a plane. Legends of the Dark Knight from B:TAS or its spiritual twin Have I Got a Story for You from Gotham Knight (which I recommend to all Bat-fans anyways, Kevin Conroy+Major Anime Studios+ Good Stories=AWESOME) are examples that come to mind. Very few people have any sort of basis for really knowing Batman, and most of that group is insane.

Not that different incarnations do an equal job. Nolanverse Bruce Wayne very pointedly acts differently as Bruce Wayne, do you think the arrogant jerkass that climbs into a fountain for fun and runs off to his own panic room makes sense as the Batman. Its that sort of stuff that will stick in the mind of most people. (Not that Christian Bale can do his bad Kevin Conroy impression worth a damn)

[Pronounceable]

Riddler + writer of Die Hard 3 = pwnage (just remember not to dumb down riddles so the audience can "get it themselves")

[Lord Loss]

It's probably been mentioned already, but the movie has been officially announced to come out in 2011 (along with Ring 3, Grudge 4, PotC 4 and many other movies I've been awaiting)

[Ichneumon]

I'd say Poison Ivy makes a good chance, and although I personally quite like the "ecoterrorism" moral ambiguity, I don't think they could pull it off without being seen as preachy and too political, either way of the spectrum.

I've read some ideas in this thread about Riddler being the detective that's ordered to "take the Bat in" and Bruce having to ask himself whether he is justified in hurting an innocent man to stop him from revealing his true identity. Meanwhile the Riddler could slowly go insane as he becomes too focused and is willing to destroy Gotham if needed for him to kill batman. I quite like that idea and think it could work and be a nice ending closure for the 3 films. First movie was about Batman learning that he needs to be 2 people and that it is "not who I am, but what I do that defines me." Second movie is about sometimes appearing like the bad guy, because it is what gotham needs, and about good guys becoming villains.

[ThePhantasm]

I've been looking over this list: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Batman_Family_enemies

Very interesting options...

[TheThan]

Personally I think the Keaton Batman is supposed to be terribly flat. I like to think of it as Batman pretending to be Bruce Wayne. The Batman persona was the real person behind the mask; being Bruce Wayne was just his day job. If you watch the film, other characters react to it, saying things like “he’s a stiff” and the like.

[Tichrondrius]

The third movie should definitely have four villains. I know more villains usually means a worse movie, but it could work for this one.

Scene. The general public hates and fears Batman now. Alfred doesn't even trust him as much now. He has become sullen and alone, becoming more the Dark Knight from BTAS. In a completely unrelated note, a scientist named Kirk is working on a formula to improve the human race. Of course, it goes horribly wrong and he becomes Man-Bat. Man-Bat terrorizes Gotham and may or may not fight Batman yet.

Meanwhile, the Mafia of Gotham is in shambles. They need a strong leader, someone crazy enough to compete with a guy like Batman. A charismatic leader steps forward to unite the Mafia groups and Black Mask is born.

The police force, except Gordon, think that Batman has finally gone too far (as Man-Bat) and one of them hires a trained mercenary to track down and kill or take in Batman. Bane would be highly trained and a sort of foil for Batman, what he could have become or something.

Scarecrow will have another cameo, possibly plotting something big, and no more will be said of him.

Batman will have to tangle with all of them throughout the movie, with Bane being the villain getting the most scene time and characterization. Batman will struggle with whether or not to kill Bane in the movie, with Black Mask moving in the background and Man-Bat just being a savage beast. At the end Batman will face Bane and Man-Bat at once, and I'd love to have Bane kill Man-Bat with his classic back-breaker. I think he should take in Bane at the end for being a trained killer too. Black Mask survives and continues building his empire.

[Lix Lorn]

Sounds good, but the Black Mask plot doesn't work, as they said there's not going to be a fourth one, so there's no point leaving loose ends.

(Nice avatar by the way)

[Tichrondrius]

Thanks. ;p

Really? No fourth one? But its got to be one of the biggest franchises around! Argh, what a disappointment. I guess I'd use the Riddler instead if it is the last movie. And Scarecrow in a much larger role, possibly working together. Maybe Harley Quinn as a Joker proxy.

[ThePhantasm]

Actually, there probably will be a fourth (if the third is successful), but Nolan and Bale will probably not be involved. Nolan has said recently that this third one will be his last, and Bale has said before that he is not interested in doing Batman unless Nolan is directing.

[Yulian]

Given my druthers, I'd like to see a total paramilitary take on 2 characters that would complement each other fabulously and indeed, are actually on a team together in a current book.

Bane and Deadshot.

Have those be the callsigns of some really deep black ops hired by parties unknown to work in Gotham towards some end that is, at first, unclear, but involves acting against the chaotic criminal elements, the reforming mob, and the police.

Bane can be a veteran of the South American nastiness of the early 90s. If he was in his early 20s when he got in, he could be in his early 40s now. Have him be the anti-Batman. Educated, skilled, experienced, and with a regimen of performance-enhancing drugs that have taken him to the limits of human strength, with a backup supply of Venom, an experimental drug developed by the military to give its operatives a short-lived edge: feel no pain, razor-edged focus, pushing his incredible physique just beyond its limits. Like Valkyr in Max Payne. He'd use every advantage he could in terms of equipment. His trademark mask is just a personally modified and integrated filter and night-vision rig.

Heck, keep his background to an extent. Born in prison, his life was an unending stream of abuse, danger, and opportunities to learn things both sublime and terrible. Once he got out, he went straight to the paramilitary organization he thought he could get the most value out of, and that's been the pattern of his life to date. Get in, learn, take advantage, leave.

Deadshot is an easy one. Former sniper, picked up on charges due to being caught at something that wasn't supposed to be made public and entered into a hush-hush, government-run "Suicide Squad" program. Now he's a free agent and looking for a big score and big challenge. He's the terrifying, unheard shot from the shadows from half a mile away. He is Batman's hatred (and maybe even a little fear) of guns write large. Make him be from a wealthy family (an element from the comics). In fact, his backstory is, in a way, as tragic as Bruce's. His mother, tired of decades of abuse and infidelity, asked Floyd and his older brother Edward to kill their father. Edward agreed and locked Floyd in the boathouse. Floyd got out, and grabbed a rifle, meaning to wound his brother in the arm before he could kill their father. The tree branch Floyd was on broke, and Edward crippled their father a moment before Floyd's shot, meant to wound, killed Edward. The family covered it all up.

This is someone Bruce might know, who went into the armed forces looking towards an eventual political career. That man is gone now, replaced with a cold, hard, confident killer, who can still turn on the arrogant charm. The man has unerring aim, incredible training, and a total disregard for his own life. Give him that little edge of sympathy, make the audience understand why he just doesn't care anymore.

The costume is easy: flak jacket, the coat, the sighting device on one eye, just mute the colours way down and we're good.
Go with this one as a base:
http://www.dynamicforces.com/images/deadshot1.jpg

As for actors...Mickey Rourke could do a passable Bane. Few current actors are really big guys, anymore, it seems. Javier Bardem might also do, if you put 40 solid pounds of muscle on him. Danny Trejo is huge and intimidating, but I'm not sure he has the subtlety for the role.

For Deadshot...Kevin Spacey is only 51, he might still be able to pull it off. Brad Pitt might also be good, now that he's matured a bit.

- Yulian

[ThePhantasm]

Here is my idea:

Catwoman is working as a thief / assassin for crime lord Rupert Thorne. In reality, however, she is not in it for the money. She is only working for Thorne so that she can discover the identity of (and take out her vengeance upon) his mysterious boss.

That mysterious boss is a man named Jervis Tetch. At the beginning of the film, we would witness Tetch's funeral - a trick to get government agents off of his tail. Tetch is a strange man who stays mostly in the shadows. He leaves small "calling cards" for his victims, much like the Joker - but these cards are covered in a special chemical which makes persons more susceptible to certain radio waves (like the ones received by cell phones) allowing them to be controlled via subliminal messages and mind control (MKULTRA but more advanced). Batman and Catwoman both discover at the same time that Tetch intends to cover cash from the city banks with this chemical and release it to the public.

When Batman confronts Tetch aka the Mad Hatter, the Hatter tells him that they really are not all that different. Batman seeks to stop criminals through intimidation and fear, influencing their choices and deterring them from crime. Tetch seeks to do the same, but more effectively - he seeks to create peace and order in the city through mind control. He will make a utopia. The main theme of the story, then, is one of order / justice vs. free will.

Tetch's technology, while somewhat farfetched on a large scale, is not totally removed from reality. Tetch would be the more psychological, criminal mastermind villain, while Catwoman would be the more martial arts / combat scene villain ( / romantic interest).

[The Glyphstone]

If Bane shows up, they'll probably cast a professional wrestler to play him. Hopefully, they pick one with actual acting talent so he's not RUINED FOREVER (again).

[Yulian]

If Bane shows up, they'll probably cast a professional wrestler to play him. Hopefully, they pick one with actual acting talent so he's not RUINED FOREVER (again).

I myself can't quite comprehend the weird desire of some folks who make non-comic media to make Bane some puny guy who completely bulks up with venom. The idea was that he's insanely strong to begin with, and the drug pushes him into terrifying and almost inhuman territory.

That and making him some dumb thug. As in so many things, B:tAS did him so well, portraying him as cunning as well as physically formidable.

- Yulian

[Lix Lorn]

If they just made a film of Knightfall, that'd do good. xD

[Yulian]

If they just made a film of Knightfall, that'd do good. xD

Don't tease us.

That would be beyond awesome and thus, has no chance of being made.

- Yulian

[Tavar]

Don't tease us.

That would be beyond awesome and thus, has no chance of being made.

- Yulian
Alternatively, if it was made, Uwe Boll would be involved.

[Lix Lorn]

Uwe Boll?

(Also, Tavar, what's the quote in your sig from?)

[Tavar]

Uwe Boll (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uwe_Boll), the German Director who makes those really, really bad movies. Most often based on video games.

And the Quote is from The General series, by S.M. Stirling and David Drake. Come to think of it, I should probably attribute it....
Done

[Lillith]

While I'm not very knowledgeable with all the different villains of Batman and I'm mostly familiar with the well known ones, I've always found the Royal Flush gang very interesting. But I guess the flying cards thing is far to wacky for the theme of the movies which I actually find quite a shame. But then again I'm all in for a more realistic approach to the story as the first two movies portrayed.

Now as for a more plausible villain I'd have to hop on the Riddler bandwagon as well. I find his character the most interesting of all villains, but that's perhaps because I love puzzles. Though I doubt that they would put him up as the detective going after Batman. That or he'd be quite insane from the start.

The reason why I suspect him to not be a detective is that he would have to be considered a good guy. The last movie already did the whole 'hero turning evil' thing with Harvey/Two Face. If Nigma would show up one would expect him to become the Riddler later, that and the fact that most people meeting Batman turn evil. So it would be a sort of plot recycling.

Now on the other hand if they'd put the Riddler on Batman, someone who from the start is quite loony to start with, that might add a bit more spice. Or perhaps he's just someone being very interesting in the whole 'Batman mystery' and eager to solve it. He'd be a side character in that case though.

[lisiecki]

Actually, I think genius is 150. Very smart is 130. XD

Genius is (at the moment) a measure of work produced in a given field.
There have been attempts to link the word to a specific IQ score (one camp says 140 the other 180).

It should be pointed out that depending on the type of test given can test for a verity of ranges, and that an IQ of lets say 120 on one test, may not relate directly to an IQ of 120 on another scale.

Also, given the nature of the testing, and what is being looked for, IQ tests are not built to measure scores of more than 145.

[The Glyphstone]

While I'm not very knowledgeable with all the different villains of Batman and I'm mostly familiar with the well known ones, I've always found the Royal Flush gang very interesting. But I guess the flying cards thing is far to wacky for the theme of the movies which I actually find quite a shame. But then again I'm all in for a more realistic approach to the story as the first two movies portrayed.

Now as for a more plausible villain I'd have to hop on the Riddler bandwagon as well. I find his character the most interesting of all villains, but that's perhaps because I love puzzles. Though I doubt that they would put him up as the detective going after Batman. That or he'd be quite insane from the start.

The reason why I suspect him to not be a detective is that he would have to be considered a good guy. The last movie already did the whole 'hero turning evil' thing with Harvey/Two Face. If Nigma would show up one would expect him to become the Riddler later, that and the fact that most people meeting Batman turn evil. So it would be a sort of plot recycling.

Now on the other hand if they'd put the Riddler on Batman, someone who from the start is quite loony to start with, that might add a bit more spice. Or perhaps he's just someone being very interesting in the whole 'Batman mystery' and eager to solve it. He'd be a side character in that case though.

It wouldn't necessarily be a plot recycle - the endpoints would be the same, but not the meat in between. Harvey Dent turned into Two-Face as the result of one horrific tragedy that sent him over the edge thanks to Joker; it could be done very well and differently if Nygma is instead depicted all the way along his slow slide into insanity. Everyone can point to Harvey's moment of 'transformation', but with a movie-long sliding scale, it'd be a lot harder to pick one specific point where he stopped being Edward Nygma, FBI agent, and became The Riddler.

[Lix Lorn]

Reminded me of a David Gemmel quote.
Uh. touche.

I liked the idea of the Riddler ending up helping the batman. Starting as an adversary, saving him from Bane at the end.

[Lillith]

As long as the Riddler produces some really good puzzles I don't mind either way. But it would be refreshing to see a villain helping the hero. I mean for this series, it's an area not yet done. Though I also like the slow decent into insanity idea too.

[Lix Lorn]

In fact, it could start with Batman vs Riddler, Bane turns up, Batman switches to him expecting to outsmart him, finds out Bane is SMART, and ends up with Riddler pulling a heel face turn (or is it face heel?) and saving him.

[pita]

In fact, it could start with Batman vs Riddler, Bane turns up, Batman switches to him expecting to outsmart him, finds out Bane is SMART, and ends up with Riddler pulling a heel face turn (or is it face heel?) and saving him.
You've inspired me to copy your idea
Idea: Batman VS Riddler, where the riddler is a citizen who wants to capture Batman. So you've got Batman vs Riddler (a vigilante) vs Police. Bane appears, Batman figures he can manipulate Bane into taking the spotlight and getting Riddler and police off his back, but Bane is too smart, and everything Batman does ends up with him being in a disadvantage compared to the police. Bane about to kill Batman when Riddler, who has pieced everything together, stops him. However, in a subversion of the Heroic Redemption Villain Sacrifice, I think Batman should die and not the Riddler. It'll be Chris Nolan's way of saying "No sequels", and also a change with what happened in two of the Spiderman movies, as well as other movies I can't remember now. Riddler then brings the truth to light, and Gotham mourns its hero Bruce Wayne, but they're ready for a new tomorrow. End the movie by showing new crimefighters - A kid dressed in red and green, a guy who looks like The Question, a guy who looks like Azrael, a girl dressed as Batgirl, a burglar in a catsuit, and I can go on with every antivillain and hero in the DCU that would be slightly plausible, but you get the idea. Theoretical sequel hooks, and a cool way to have a Batman legacy.

[Lix Lorn]

Not a bad idea. (nods)

[The Glyphstone]

It'd never happen - no way the studios will let Nolan cut off a potential cash cow like Batman 4 (cause clearly Batman 4 has to have Batman in it:smallconfused:) - but it's still awesome.

[Lix Lorn]

It'd never happen - no way the studios will let Nolan cut off a potential cash cow like Batman 4 (cause clearly Batman 4 has to have Batman in it:smallconfused:) - but it's still awesome.

Or does it?
Yeah.
Think about it.

[The Glyphstone]

Or does it?
Yeah.
Think about it.

You're making the vast and likely unsupportable leap of logic that movie executives can think...

[Lix Lorn]

...true. Curses.
I was thinking Robin/Nightwing. But don't shoot me straight away, hear me out. After batman's death, a late teenager decides to continue his name. He takes the title Nightwing. At the end of the film, he has a job in wayne enterprises and has worked out that Batman was Brucey. Alfred takes him aside, and proclaims him the heir to the company-and to all Bruce's wealth. And the Batman lives on.

[The Glyphstone]

See, now you're "thinking" like a Hollywood suit - spend an entire movie building up a character, then in the last five minutes pull a 'plot twist' out of nowhere so you can reuse advertising and not have to pay for manufacturing a new line of tie-in toys and games with the 'new' character.:smallbiggrin:

I think it might just be canon that Alfred is the beneficiary of Bruce's will, though, which sadly means your theory could have ground just shaky enough for it to be butchered into a movie plot (he'd immediately give everything to Robin/Nightwing/Batman II, with no explanation of how or why, handwaving the millions of legal issues that would arise, etc.).:smalleek:

[Lix Lorn]

The difference is that my vision is deep and multilayered and at least tries to solve the plot issues. In fact, I'd introduce Nightwing-to-be in the third film as a rising star in Wayne enterprises, maybe have him see the final battle-in which Batty dies and Riddler has a CMoA and a heel face turn.
In the next film, you could even have Alfred trying to find out who the new guy is, not realising that the brilliant businessman believed to be future CEO of Wayne Enterprises is actally Nightwing. At the climax of the film, Nightwing comes back with a gash upon his face from a battle that Alfred saw-and seeing the same gash on the boy's face, realises.

[Lillith]

We all no that the true heir of Batman is Terry McGinnis! But then again it would be years before even the baby would be around so yeah... I don't think that Batman would be killed off, indeed because of the fact that they'd kill off the main franchise and I don't think people would like 'a character besides Bruce Wayne' to be Batman. If anything the Riddler would sacrifice himself to 'safe the biggest mystery of all'.

[WitchSlayer]

Except, y'know.
When it's not Terry
Which is most of the time.

[Lix Lorn]

We all no that the true heir of Batman is Terry McGinnis! But then again it would be years before even the baby would be around so yeah... I don't think that Batman would be killed off, indeed because of the fact that they'd kill off the main franchise and I don't think people would like 'a character besides Bruce Wayne' to be Batman. If anything the Riddler would sacrifice himself to 'safe the biggest mystery of all'.

That was our original plan. But as Nolan doesn't want to do anymore, we thought it might end with Batty dying instead for a change.

[Lillith]

Yeah that's true. It's too bad Nolan will stop the series after the third one, but on the other side it's nice to see they won't milk it to death. There is a plausible option that he'd kill off Batman. Though if Nolan does that, then he'll have to do it really well cause boy would that piss fans off.

[pita]

We all no that the true heir of Batman is Terry McGinnis! But then again it would be years before even the baby would be around so yeah... I don't think that Batman would be killed off, indeed because of the fact that they'd kill off the main franchise and I don't think people would like 'a character besides Bruce Wayne' to be Batman. If anything the Riddler would sacrifice himself to 'safe the biggest mystery of all'.

I want McGinnis. I love McGinnis. He is definitely more awesome than any of the Robins, not least because he wears pants. The pants count for much. But the rest of it does, as well. He psyches out the Joker. Realize what that sentence means. He psyches out the god of psyching out. And he does it while wearing pants.
He should be in the new movie.
Here's how you do it:
End of the movie, Bruce's funeral. Very few people show, because it's Batman being buried. People hate Batman. One kid is there, he approaches Alfred. He talks about how Batman was a hero, and that when he grows up, he wants to be like Batman. Alfred asks him his name, and the movie ends with something like "I'm Terry McGinnis." The idea needs work, because it's not awesome enough yet, but with some work, it could be.

[Lix Lorn]

I feel this may be blasphemy, but who is Terry McGinnis?

[Otogi]

Bit of a stretch, but how about Owlman?

[Tavar]

I feel this may be blasphemy, but who is Terry McGinnis?

Main character from Batman Beyond.

[Lillith]

I really liked Batman Beyond. On some levels I like Terry more then Bruce cause he still tries to have a life on the side. I also liked the dynamics between Terry and Bruce.

If they would end the last movie with how Pita described I'd be totally psyched. I might even forgive them that they killed of Batman. They'd have to break some canon for that one but oh well!

[Lix Lorn]

Ooohyeaaaah. I saw the film with the Joker from that. I loved it when I was younger. LAYZAH SATELLITE 8D

[ThePhantasm]

Actually, Nolan said recently that Batman 3 will end the trilogy - i.e. the story will have a definite end to it. Doesn't mean Batman will die, but I think it means no sequels in the Nolanverse.

I saw rumors awhile back about a Batman Beyond live action movie. I think the studio might consider it after Nolan is gone. I think it would be terrific - I'd love to see Blight on screen.

[Lillith]

Hmmm, for me it would depend as who they'd cast for Terry. Though a Batman Beyond live action movie sounds awesome.

[pita]

Blight wouldn't work in live action, simply because "Wait, he was spilled with radiation? Shouldn't that give him cancer?" and he's not well known enough, like The Incredible Hulk, to have fans forgive him that.
If we were going for a villain for a live action Batman Beyond movie... I dunno... I loved Return of the Joker but it's got too much bad science to work as a movie, and we don't have a Tim Drake. Maybe just cast Mark Hamill as a returned Joker, but then you lose one of the good scenes in the movie. I need to explain that: The movie is three awesome scenes, connected by little plot bits. The Joker's introduction, with the "BANG" gun, Barbara Gordon's flashback, where the Joker dies, and the McGinnis-Joker battle at the end, where he psyches him out and then zaps him.
Terry should be played by Zac Efron. :D
I've actually been liking Logan Lerman, of Percy Jackson and Gamer fame. He's gotten some bad roles, but he'd definitely work as the second bat.