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Geiger Counter
2010-03-29, 09:42 PM
am I correct in assuming that while timestopped you can run on top of water and other nonsolids as if you were under the water walking spell?

Cisturn
2010-03-29, 09:51 PM
seems likely i guess, you probably could of you were etheral too

Evard
2010-03-29, 09:51 PM
No, that would mean if you are under water when you do timestop then you are trapped in a solid block of water.

holywhippet
2010-03-29, 09:51 PM
I'd say no, from the SRD:
You cannot move or harm items held, carried, or worn by a creature stuck in normal time, but you can affect any item that is not in another creature’s possession. Water would come under the category of items not in another creature's possession. Otherwise how could you even move? If water was frozen then so would be the air - you wouldn't be able to breath or move through the air stuck solid around you.

The Glyphstone
2010-03-29, 09:53 PM
Likewise, no. Time Stop isn't actually stopping time really, it's just making you really, really fast for a short period...super-super-Haste. Water still acts like it normally does, which is to say, it doesn't let you walk on it.

Then again, it would look cool, and it's not like it would make Time Stop significantly more broken then it already is...so I'd probably accept it as a houserule. By RAW though, it's a no-go.

Ravens_cry
2010-03-29, 09:57 PM
Rule as Written. No.
Rule of Cool? Hells, yes!
See also, climbing raindrops.

Bibliomancer
2010-03-29, 10:08 PM
If you can affect objects currently in no-one's possession, an interesting question arises: what is the save to avoid getting crushed by a boulder of indeterminate mass and diameter created already in contact with your head thanks to polymorph any object? Is this a PC version of rocks fall?

Frosty
2010-03-29, 10:17 PM
If you dive into water, does the splash stay frozen until the spell ends? I mean, if it doesn't, then that means the water is sped up as well.

Time Stop is so powerful that it speed up everything except living things? This is majorly epic in terms of the selectively of a spell.

DeltaEmil
2010-03-29, 10:31 PM
Reminds me of a Scrooge McDuck-comic by Don Rosa, where the Beagle Boys got hold of a time-stopping watch from Gyro Gearloose, and Donald and his nephews had to stop them from completely stealing all of Scrooge's money.
Donald and co. were able to walk over water, and climb on doves who were frozen in time.

Of course, walking on grass was as dangerous as walking barefoot on sea full of needle, tiny papers were as sharp as razorblades, and butterflies as solid as a flying stone.

OracleofWuffing
2010-03-29, 10:41 PM
Water would come under the category of items not in another creature's possession.
Don't say that too loud, there's probably a deity that would take offense to that statement. :smallbiggrin:

Lysander
2010-03-29, 10:59 PM
Time Stop raises so many questions. For example, if you throw an item does it stop in midair the second it leaves your hand or does it remain accelerated?

Temotei
2010-03-29, 11:12 PM
Time Stop raises so many questions. For example, if you throw an item does it stop in midair the second it leaves your hand or does it remain accelerated?

Actually, you can't do that. The spell explicitly states you can't move any objects in a creature's possession. If you're holding it, you can't throw it. :smallamused: Then again, right after it, it says "another creature."

Weird.


You cannot move or harm items held, carried, or worn by a creature stuck in normal time, but you can affect any item that is not in another creature’s possession.

TripperdeCleric
2010-03-29, 11:31 PM
im gonna go with a general 'NO!" on this one. First off, like everyone said if water is frozen then so is everything else. It is under some sort of possession...it is inhabited by creatures and you are on it..thus in possession of the water you are standing on..unless you are trapped within a realm that is trapped within a realm and there are 5 people on the same spot and Kord is swinging a giant hammer at your face...in which you die...but besides that it is occupied no matter what thus unaffectable.

TheOOB
2010-03-29, 11:32 PM
If we're going to bring physics in and say you can walk on water, then I'm going to say that you get trapped by air, same logic really.

Eurus
2010-03-29, 11:33 PM
If you dive into water, does the splash stay frozen until the spell ends? I mean, if it doesn't, then that means the water is sped up as well.

Time Stop is so powerful that it speed up everything except living things? This is majorly epic in terms of the selectively of a spell.

And yet, that seems to be how it works. Otherwise, as pointed out, air would be slowed down - you'd either be completely stuck/pushing through sludge, or just plain get ripped apart by wind resistance when you try to move.

But then, it's magic. Logic doesn't really come into it. :smallbiggrin:

TripperdeCleric
2010-03-29, 11:35 PM
Its just a bad idea to think like this. I mean..It would be funny to sit at the table and watch you accomplish one of the following:

1. Walk on Water
2. Get crushed by the Air
3. Suffocate
4. Walk up a set of invisible air stairs
5. Have the DM hit you with a book (any would suffice)
6. Watch your time stop fail halfway through walking you fall through the water and your spell reinact due to some unfortunant event causing the water to become solid and again crush you.

Inyssius Tor
2010-03-29, 11:43 PM
If we're going to bring physics in and say you can walk on water, then I'm going to say that you get trapped by air, same logic really.

Exactly. If water is solid, air is solid, and you're going to spend your free 1d4 + 1 rounds making Constitution checks to stave off suffocation in your little sarcophagus of frozen sky.

TripperdeCleric
2010-03-29, 11:45 PM
I love how you put it above...that makes me laugh.

It really does appear to work like you think..you can walk on water...but dont forget the other precautions to doing so.

herrhauptmann
2010-03-29, 11:55 PM
A hasted swiftblade can walk on water, even without timestop. And it's an (EX) haste, so it can't be dispelled. Same with his capstone timepiece. Which means a swiftblade who stopped time with his haste, can walk into AMF and deadmagic zones.
Problem solved :)

Teron
2010-03-30, 12:04 AM
Actually, you can't do that. The spell explicitly states you can't move any objects in a creature's possession. If you're holding it, you can't throw it. :smallamused: Then again, right after it, it says "another creature."

Weird.
Take a closer look at your quote:

You cannot move or harm items held, carried, or worn by a creature stuck in normal time, but you can affect any item that is not in another creature’s possession.

Temotei
2010-03-30, 12:07 AM
Take a closer look at your quote:

Dang, man. :smallsigh:

I need some sleep. I just know arguskos is going to say something soon. I can feel it. That is, if he notices my post. Likely.

absolmorph
2010-03-30, 12:30 AM
Rule as Written. No.
Rule of Cool? Hells, yes!
See also, climbing raindrops.
I believe this argument isn't getting as much weight as it should.

Ormur
2010-03-30, 12:42 AM
Even though timestop doesn't actually stop time, just slow it down a lot, you could still potentially run on water. A human running at more than 100 km/h could probably do it, like those lizards that run on water. Of course you'd also be dealing with a lot more drag from the air. I'm not sure you could run if felt like driving at 100 km/h without a windscreen. For rule of cool you could still allow it since it's a 9th level spell. Walking on water is nothing compared to that.

Beorn080
2010-03-30, 12:50 AM
There is a lizard that runs fast enough that it can run across the surface of the water. Seen here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ut5jENqBX8

Considering your so sped up as to not be noticed by anyone else, I would say you too could run across water.

However, this raises other, potentially crazier questions. Assuming it acts like a super haste, that is, speeding up your actions to the point that no one else can perceive them, does that mean gravity has a lessened effect on you? I mean, it has the same pull, but since your 6 seconds are now 1d4+1 x 6 seconds long, that would stretch out its effect on you, meaning you would jump higher then normal, anywhere from twice to something.

Edit: Ninja'd, but I got a link.

Mongoose87
2010-03-30, 01:02 AM
I endorse the lizard argument. Timestop waterwalking for everyone!

Superglucose
2010-03-30, 01:09 AM
Water Walk is what, a 1st level spell? 2nd maybe?

Let them walk across water with their Time Stop. By that level if they're even moderately optimized (and by "moderately" I mean "they aren't picking spells by throwing darts at a wall") they've got at least one method of flight so it won't matter. If they don't then w/e, it's a 17th level wizard that can't fly, what do you care if he can suddenly walk on water? Rule of cool plus it doesn't really alter the game.

+1 the "RAW? No. ROC? Yes."

Eldan
2010-03-30, 04:47 AM
Rule as Written. No.
Rule of Cool? Hells, yes!
See also, climbing raindrops.

Ouch. Rainfall? You are now surrounded by completely indestructible, non-moving bullets of water.

Oh, and if it stops air and water, would it also stop light and heat, thereby making you blind and freezing you to death? :smalltongue:

Killer Angel
2010-03-30, 05:21 AM
am I correct in assuming that while timestopped you can run on top of water and other nonsolids as if you were under the water walking spell?

More probably, you'll start drowning and no one can help you... :smalltongue:

Askold
2010-03-30, 05:23 AM
The spell strictly says you move faster. So damn fast that you can do what you normally do in 1d4+1 rounds but in 1 real round. That means you're moving, at max, 5 times faster than normal. And 5 times faster is very damn fast! So question goes: Is it enough to move through water without entering it?

Now I'm sorry to start this technical conversation, but as a final clarification, here it goes:

Common spellcaster, medium: base speed 30fts, full run 120 fts. Full run in a 4+1 timestop: 600fts. Considering each round is 6 seconds, that's 30,48 m/s, wich is very goddamn much! And I'd say it is more than enough to run over water, if you focus only on doing it! If you don't use the full run, and only double-move, the speed drops to half, wich is still enough. But if you only do one move action, you're speed will basically drop by 1/4, endind in some not-enough 7,62 (remember this is considering a 5 turns timestop. So a full run with a 3 rounds timestop would still be enough for example. To know if it is enough just re-calculate your full run in the rounds you have and use that as distance moved, in the start of the calculations). But how exactly does this work?

As Pippa Lucas explains it:"To avoid sinking, you need to generate thrust equal to your weight. You generate this by pushing water down and backwards with each step.(...)If you weigh 75kg, my back-of-an-envelope calculation suggests you’ll need to push it back at around 11m/s.(...)", ignoring fluid drag (the resistance that will slow you down, because you sink a bit of your foot in water).

http://www.bbcfocusmagazine.com/qa/how-fast-would-i-have-run-run-over-water

Hope it explains my point of view over the spell, sorry for the confusing english and simple format, new to the forums. :)

MickJay
2010-03-30, 05:26 AM
Ouch. Rainfall? You are now surrounded by completely indestructible, non-moving bullets of water.

Oh, and if it stops air and water, would it also stop light and heat, thereby making you blind and freezing you to death? :smalltongue:

Remember the silly remark about how physics, apart from the specific effects described, is supposed to work exactly like in real life? That's RAW. If Time Stop slows everything down a lot, then you indeed can walk on water, but also get impeded by air a lot, it's more difficult to breathe, and if you move quickly, the friction will cause you to heat up immensely and burst into flames. :smalltongue:

Agi Hammerthief
2010-03-30, 05:28 AM
any gaming group where the wizard puts Time Stop in their spell book should read Thief Of Time by Pterry
it's got some cool descriptions on the effects of time stopping (and time serious slow downing <- or whatever that is called, gramatically correct)

Eldan
2010-03-30, 05:28 AM
Yes. I'm really just pointing out how silly it is. But my question remains: do photons stand still in a time stop? What about electrons? Can we break Schrödinger's equation that way?

Drend
2010-03-30, 05:33 AM
Don't say that too loud, there's probably a deity that would take offense to that statement. :smallbiggrin:

I'd say that the body of water's ruling fey/spirit would take offense first. :P

Walk on water? No. Run on water? Yes. Or, if they had really oily boots. Or boat shoes. That would be amusing.

Killer Angel
2010-03-30, 05:34 AM
I suddenly hear the distant sound of thousands suffering catgirls...
Stop the madness!

2xMachina
2010-03-30, 05:36 AM
I'd say that time stop speeds you up, along with anything in contact with you. But doesn't affect other living beings.

Would explain how you can move unattended stuff.

dota600
2010-03-30, 06:05 AM
I think it is more like this.

time stop makes you move incredibly fast, you know, like that Flash superhero guy. You can do stuff and move around stuff that are not a part of your timestop, of course your clothes are part of the time stop spell but not those that surround you. Since those things that are not affected by time stop is not moving that fast, then they are subject to be bound in that station thus you are able to climb up their bodies without them moving, and everything else, except you cant move them since you cannot move those things that are fast enough(like they are in a stasis).

I think water will be solid enough to be walk upon but when you last for 1 round around the same area of that water, then you are subject to go down(ala quick sand) 2 feet and 2 feet the consecutive round.

Air is also stationary but when you breathe, you only breathe the air in that area and that area becomes vacuum until the next 2 rounds in time stop in where that area fills with air again.

Deth Muncher
2010-03-30, 07:56 AM
Couldn't someone actually walk on water if they could not break the surface tension? So logically, if Time Stop makes you move fast enough to not break surface tension...

The Glyphstone
2010-03-30, 08:04 AM
I suddenly hear the distant sound of thousands suffering catgirls...
Stop the madness!

Yes, we must end their suffering. More physics!

Lapak
2010-03-30, 08:30 AM
Given how Timestop works? I'd say that it super-speeds up everything in immediate contact with you. Thus you can carry around your clothes and breathe, but can't touch stuff held by other creatures without speeding THEM up and breaking the spell.

Since you speed up everything you touch and bring it into your own frame of reference, you'd sink in water and drown in it normally. So no, you can't walk on water.

waterpenguin43
2010-03-30, 08:32 AM
You speed up a ton, time doesn't stop, but when it comes to walking on water, it would have the same effect. I know of a monk variant in Stormwrack similar to that.

Roderick_BR
2010-03-30, 08:38 AM
Reminds me of a Scrooge McDuck-comic by Don Rosa, where the Beagle Boys got hold of a time-stopping watch from Gyro Gearloose, and Donald and his nephews had to stop them from completely stealing all of Scrooge's money.
Donald and co. were able to walk over water, and climb on doves who were frozen in time.

Of course, walking on grass was as dangerous as walking barefoot on sea full of needle, tiny papers were as sharp as razorblades, and butterflies as solid as a flying stone.
Another Disney Story had Super Goof and his nephew go to the past through a time machine whose time-traveling rules dictate that the past couldn't be changed, meaning that they couldn't affect anything. The grass wouldn't bend under their feet, rain was like an aerial machine gun, and he couldn't even stop a butterfly's flight. Didn't take in account the very air arond them, though, though wind still pushed them away.

Eldan
2010-03-30, 09:36 AM
So, if you cast time stop enough, will you experience relativistic effects?

xelliea
2010-03-30, 09:39 AM
am I correct in assuming that while timestopped you can run on top of water and other nonsolids as if you were under the water walking spell?

I guess you could but it is up to the DM.

Mark Hall
2010-03-30, 09:51 AM
Likewise, no. Time Stop isn't actually stopping time really, it's just making you really, really fast for a short period...super-super-Haste. Water still acts like it normally does, which is to say, it doesn't let you walk on it.

Then again, it would look cool, and it's not like it would make Time Stop significantly more broken then it already is...so I'd probably accept it as a houserule. By RAW though, it's a no-go.

Of course, by the logic of speeding you up immensely, you should be able to walk on water, as your weight wouldn't be on any one section long enough to break surface tension.

Deth Muncher
2010-03-30, 11:07 AM
Of course, by the logic of speeding you up immensely, you should be able to walk on water, as your weight wouldn't be on any one section long enough to break surface tension.


Couldn't someone actually walk on water if they could not break the surface tension? So logically, if Time Stop makes you move fast enough to not break surface tension...

It appears we have an accord. :D

Ormur
2010-03-30, 11:17 AM
I think it was already established that running five times faster than normal would allow humans to run on water.

But since we're "only" talking about five times faster you don't have to worry about nonsense like relativistic effects and bursting into flames. Your arm doesn't burst into flames if you stick it out the window of a car travelling at 100 km/h.

jiriku
2010-03-30, 11:31 AM
We are not "only" five times faster. A couple of posters have stated that time stop gives you 6-30 seconds of apparent time within 6 seconds of real time. It's better than that.


This spell seems to make time cease to flow for everyone but you. In fact, you speed up so greatly that all other creatures seem frozen, though they are actually still moving at their normal speeds.

You're not taking 30 seconds of actions in 6 seconds. You're taking 30 seconds of actions in zero seconds. Speed is not a relevant concept here: attempting to calculate your speed would generate a divide by zero error.

As such, we should assume that, as a 9th level spell, time stop includes robust protections that enable its user to survive in a timespace that is outside the known laws of physics.

RAW is pretty clear. Everything stops moving (including water). However, unless the water is an attended object (and the rules are pretty clear about what qualifies as an attended object), you can "affect" it, which I would interpret to mean you interact with it as you normally would when time is not stopped.

So no water-walking. Except that it's so cool, I'd allow it in my games. :smallbiggrin:

Askold
2010-03-30, 11:51 AM
I do think differently from what you state. While the words Time Stop might sound like you are actually stopping time, the spell description is pretty clear as what it does: "This spell seems to make time cease to flow for everyone but you. In fact, you speed up so greatly that all other creatures seem frozen, though they are actually still moving at their normal speeds."

But since it's cast time is a standard action, and in that round you can still move, you're half right when you say that it ends up being a zero division. Still, it would be expected, like any other spell that you're spending the standard action to cast, that the casting of the spell spends some time itself. Therefore, we are back to the argument where you'll be using your Time Stop rounds during the time spent on that "standard action", for someone normal.

Therefore, you are indeed moving at high speed, enough to walk over water.

Of course, it's always subject to the DM's approval, he's the determinant of the laws of Physics in everyone's campaign. :)

MickJay
2010-03-30, 11:59 AM
Let's not forget that, in terms of physics, there's absolutely no difference between "speed yourself up" and "slow everything else down". One may choose to take the spell description at face value, but I think its only purpose is to make the spell appear weaker than it actually is (it seems that speeding the caster up is a lesser feat than slowing down the universe, but, due to relativity, it's one and the same).

Emmerask
2010-03-30, 12:47 PM
Let's not forget that, in terms of physics, there's absolutely no difference between "speed yourself up" and "slow everything else down". One may choose to take the spell description at face value, but I think its only purpose is to make the spell appear weaker than it actually is (it seems that speeding the caster up is a lesser feat than slowing down the universe, but, due to relativity, it's one and the same).

The fluff text is the only explanation why there is no spellresistance and/or saving throw for every creature so the speed up thing atleast in d&d is much better then slow down everything. :smallwink:

grautry
2010-03-30, 07:33 PM
Therefore, we are back to the argument where you'll be using your Time Stop rounds during the time spent on that "standard action", for someone normal.

Sort of, but not really.

Remember that standard action in this case is the incantation of the spell and not the effect of the spell.

Once you're done with all the verbal component mumbo-jumbo, at the exact moment when your standard action would end and someone else's action would begin, you get X rounds of apparent time during which to act.

So, you're not acting "five times faster" or whatever.

You're acting so impossibly fast that after your standard action is over and before anyone else has the time to react, you have the time to squeeze in a couple of rounds worth of actions.

Last Laugh
2010-03-30, 07:51 PM
Yes. I'm really just pointing out how silly it is. But my question remains: do photons stand still in a time stop? What about electrons? Can we break Schrödinger's equation that way?

I'm no physicist (Is that actually spell right? Or did I spell so poorly the red line committed suicide?) but we just pointed out that time stop only speeds you up.
I'm sure this has horrible impacts on the health of your character (this is why wizards are always old, time stop ages them faster and then their heart explodes)

Hehe, timestop during a rainstorm is bad then... hurricane?
Weather affecting spells>timestop?

Benejeseret
2010-03-30, 08:51 PM
Could we not blend the fluff to work within the crunch and all come out at something reasonable?

The spell is only a few rounds extra in duration so it is perfectly reasonable to fluff that you cannot breath during its effect (fluff) and any further casting/speaking you do must be done on what air you had in your lungs. Thus adding to the variable length of the effect as sometimes you just cannot hold yourself at that level for as long.

As for the waterwalking it seems like it is an issue of molecules that d20 ignores completely. It simply does not account for pressure 99% of the time.

How would one work with pressure here anyway? RAW seems to just avoid it with the 'unattended object' clause. In general this game cannot/does not account for it at all.

For instance, what happens if you uncork a Eversmoking Bottle during timestop? It should billow out 100' radial spread worth of thick gasses and when you consider that particle spread happening at time touches the limits of zero....BAAAM!!!!!

For that matter, uncork and stick that bottle in the mouth of a 'frozen' enemy and tell your DM that you should account for real life physics as the spell specifics does not trump physics - 100' RADIUS cubic volume of gas instantly expelled into the lungs that of a human can only take nowhere near that pressure/volume. Point out you are only affecting the pressure around/just at his mouth and so it remains unattended.

I think we have to accept ROC as the rules of reality simply cannot be applied due to the vast number of options we simply have to gloss over (such as pressure)

magic9mushroom
2010-03-30, 09:36 PM
Re: being blinded by a Time Stop:

D&D appears to follow emission theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emission_theory_(vision)), so you wouldn't have a problem.