Player casting Crushing Despair at will

[Trekkin]

No, not in game. Out here on the others.

Basically, he and I are both players in a nascent game of DnD, the rolls of which include a relatively new DM and a completely new player, and this lad off the other end of the spectrum. Even before the game has fully started, this player has managed to drive everyone in the game but the aforementioned two to the brink of insanity through ever-more convoluted means of theoretical optimization and correspondingly arcane (in the nonmagical sense) explanations for how it's not overpowered. At the same time, he is a font of DM-type wisdom regarding screen time and rules abuse and will find a way to work these in to nearly every idea either more experienced player has. In effect, we get "if you persist in rules abuse, you will be removed. Now, here's my idea for how to get all the items I want for free, and it doesn't require that..."

Is there any way to get this player to follow the RAI? He's not doing this solely to be a hypocrite; I honestly think he doesn't mentally equate his own optimizations with ours. So can this be solved, or ought those of us who find this grating to simply abandon the group?

[TripperdeCleric]

No, not in game. Out here on the others.

Basically, he and I are both players in a nascent game of DnD, the rolls of which include a relatively new DM and a completely new player, and this lad off the other end of the spectrum. Even before the game has fully started, this player has managed to drive everyone in the game but the aforementioned two to the brink of insanity through ever-more convoluted means of theoretical optimization and correspondingly arcane (in the nonmagical sense) explanations for how it's not overpowered. At the same time, he is a font of DM-type wisdom regarding screen time and rules abuse and will find a way to work these in to nearly every idea either more experienced player has. In effect, we get "if you persist in rules abuse, you will be removed. Now, here's my idea for how to get all the items I want for free, and it doesn't require that..."

Is there any way to get this player to follow the RAI? He's not doing this solely to be a hypocrite; I honestly think he doesn't mentally equate his own optimizations with ours. So can this be solved, or ought those of us who find this grating to simply abandon the group?


Kill him..very simply kill him.

On another note explain this to him out of game. its the best thing you can do..otherwise leave his group and continue if he doesnt fit...that will cause him to create a new character that does or just enjoy the game and listen to yall.

[Trekkin]

Actually, it had gotten to the point where I had a fully statted-out buffificer optimized for cursing his items with the intent of eventually destroying his character...then i snapped out of it and I realized how counterproductive to my enjoyment of the game it'd be to take OOC frustrations out on a warlock who's done nothing other than be played by their source. So yes, I had nearly very simply killed him, after a fashion.

[Private-Prinny]

That new DM you've got? He makes all the decisions about what the RAI are in the first place. If he tries to do something crazy overpowered, a simple "no" will end it. You still need to take him aside and explain that his TO characters would ruin the game for everyone else playing. Make sure he knows that the combos are so amazing that you can't allow them for the sake of balance, and he should agree. If all else fails, just pull the DM card.

[Trekkin]

The problem is, he understands that TO characters are bad. He gets it, and will happily spout at you all the reasons why. What I need him to understand is that, for instance, assuming armor was crafted by an NPC with a specific set of feats to enable him to purchase armor enchanted with non-level-dependent effects at a (meaningless) lower CL, while maybe somehow not mechanically game-breaking, still violates the intention of, in this case, WBL - to make you roughly as powerful as you would be if you had started adventuring at first level in a typical campaign so you can face monsters of your CR. Maybe it is the rest of us, but we're all getting tired of hearing the three-paragraph explanation of how he gets this armor at a lower price than listed.

I guess what I really need, on reflection guided by you, is a set of concrete guidelines to suggest to the DM to stop all this pulling of random feats together to subvert various rules as intended without having to resort to either case-by-case DM fiat or simply removing all books but the PHB (and even then, he'd find a way to exploit core magic). This is, after all, the type of character who spends ten minutes calculating how much the discrepancy in PHB prices between ten-foot poles and ladders (split the ladder in half for monetary gain) should get him by fifth level...

[TripperdeCleric]

Simple DM rule...I dont care what you say Im the DM....if i say this wooden stick is 20k gp then its 20k gp...I dont care if you have all the feats..the best dipolomacy...charisma that can make a dragon obey your every command or whatnot...I am the DM....thats it...if he wants to keep saying this and this and this and that and how this is cheaper this way and how I spend less gp...it dont matter..if its that way have your dm say the shopkeeper isnt doing that or if he is making weapons out of this or requesting or anything either fail it or have the shoppie say no.

The DMs Word Is LaW.

[Claudius Maximus]

Also, even if an NPC could craft an item at a reduced price, why wouldn't they just sell it at the market price anyway to make more money?

TO is usually discussed in this sort of bizarre setting where there is no DM and logic takes a back seat to RAW. It falls apart (or should, at least) when you're in a real game, with a real DM.

[TripperdeCleric]

An alternative to the above is tell the player he is ugly and his feet smell bad..it will get him thinking on something else rather than how he can save money...maybe he will think of soap..we never will know...

[Trekkin]

I pointed out the potential for improved profit margin and he pulled out the CL*spell level*factors thing from the DMG.

[Claudius Maximus]

I pointed out the potential for improved profit margin and he pulled out the CL*spell level*factors thing from the DMG.

That shouldn't have any effect by RAW. In fact, it should be impossible to apply that to armor and wondrous items. You need to have CL 8 for Gloves of Dex, even if you can cast Cat's Grace at level 3. Even if you're an Artificer and can craft them at CL 6, there's no price reduction at all for doing so. It's just easier to dispel.

Unless you're talking about the custom magic item guidelines, which are subject to DM approval even by RAW.

[Beorn080]

I could have sworn magic items cost XP to make. I know if I was making them, I would get whatever I could for them, even if I was making em cheaper then the guy next door due to having bathed in holy water under a new moon with three chickens, a donkey, and a goblin named Fred.

Still, has he met the blind mage who spams disjunction yet?

[TripperdeCleric]

Just refer to the DM says what he says rule...dont let him rant all he wants..tell him he needs to stop his whole I can do this because of this discussion because he can argue all he wants..the dms word is law.

[Trekkin]

Still, has he met the blind mage who spams disjunction yet?

Why is he blind?

[TripperdeCleric]

He blinded himself and activated the wrong wand and hit himself with permanancy and he is stuck like that....

[Mongoose87]

I think you may find that this (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2010/3/29/) contains useful advice.

[Orannis]

Wow, this guy sounds like a full on Energy Drain not Crushing Despair. I would agree with the other posters, DM makes rules, players follow rules, insane optimizing min-maxing lolcating types get disjuncted as the walk out of town on the first quest. Does he just not get that this is supposed to be FUN? Or is this, and Excel spreadsheets and T-accounts, his idea OF fun. Are you an evil character or do you have a party rogue with good stealing skills? Take him down a notch or two in game if the DM won't stop him.

[Thrawn183]

Instead of telling him to shave his feet, how about shaving his neck-beard?

[Abd al-Azrad]

His gear-optimizing reminds me of a game where our party bought, offscreen, a Paladin wand of Lesser Restoration to help remove the need for a cleric. It only occurs to me in retrospect exactly how crazy the idea is, that we could have found a Paladin who took the Craft Wand feat, specifically to out-compete other wand-makers and capture market share. A Paladin!

Oh, I am laughing here.

Anyways, I certainly know where you're coming from here. I've had multiple groups with at least one ridiculous optimizer, I have in the past been such a jerk (not proud of it), so plenty of XP in dealing with this. Unfortunately, I haven't had a lot of success in dealing with it in people, just because even if you pull them aside and explain (calmly and rationally, not placing blame or anger) that their behaviour is problematic, they'll calm down for a session or two and then start up again. This is because, often, the problem isn't that they're just oblivious to their powergaming, rather, they enjoy being better than the rest of the party. It's their competitiveness that leads them to out-optimize the other players and the DM. They spent a lot of time mastering their art, and want to be recognized for it. They want to show off.

Frankly, to deal with this and keep them as a player, you need to find a way for them to continue to have fun without driving everyone crazy. Standard choices include separating them from the party frequently (if they spend a lot of time soloing, accomplishing their own objectives, then they get to let out their awesomeness desire while only annoying the DM) or having them step in as DM occasionally (so their rules-abuse becomes a feature of the universe, and the party remains generally balanced against itself). Of course, each option has the chance to turn out disastrously (http://darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0353.html).

[The Glyphstone]

Is he close friends with the DM? are you playing at his house? If neither of these are "Yes" (and possibly even if the second one is "Yes"), why is the solution for all the people who are being driven crazy by his cheesemongering to leave? Form a unified group and tell him, with the DM, that either he stops doing it or you guys won't want him to play with you anymore.

[Abd al-Azrad]

Is he close friends with the DM? are you playing at his house? If neither of these are "Yes" (and possibly even if the second one is "Yes"), why is the solution for all the people who are being driven crazy by his cheesemongering to leave? Form a unified group and tell him, with the DM, that either he stops doing it or you guys won't want him to play with you anymore.

Considering the OP has come to us for help in dealing with the situation, doesn't that kind of imply that walking out/kicking out the player isn't a desirable option? Sure, this guy is annoying in theory, but I somehow suspect he's also a friend of the group's, and this is just one factor in an otherwise desirable player.

I mean, if he's not really welcome in the group, then yeah, remove him from the group. Otherwise, try to find a way to encourage him to use his skills for constructive purposes.

[Asheram]

*hint for the DM*

Make every npc charge the double due to him smelling of cheese.

[unre9istered]

PC: But it only cost you 100gp to make that why are you charging the standard price of 1000gp?
NPC: Union rules. And you don't want to go against the Union. Trust me.

[jiriku]

Basically, your DM needs to learn the principles of good DMing, and learn them fast. The player isn't really the problem, regardless of how odious he seems. Every gaming group has "that guy" in it; yours just has a very advanced case of Pain In The Ass, while your DM's I Can Handle It chops aren't well-developed yet.

For learning how to DM excellently, I highly recommend the 3.5 DMG2 or the 4th ed DMG1. Both contain a wealth of advice on "soft skills", the collection of skills that every DM uses to ensure that people enjoy his game. Partly, he needs to learn to say "Yes, but...". Mostly, he needs to learn when to say it.

But here are some general guidelines:

IF A PLAYER OR CHARACTER...
...finds a way to acquire something that's normally completely unavailable to any character of his level, that's a problem. You need to say no to that.
...finds a way to make one defense completely 100% unassailable (e.g. Armor Class or Saving Throws are 20 points higher than other party members), that's a problem. If you provided something that made it happen, admit your mistake and change things. If the player found a way to do it without you, inspect carefully for rules abuse, or speculative interpretations.
...finds a way to acquire powers with large opportunity costs without paying those costs, that's a problem, although one that can be managed.
...is disproportionately powerful compared to the rest of the party, that's a problem, but it's one you can manage. Provide treasure and challenges that disproportionately play to the strengths of the weaker characters, include more opponents who are resistant to the best attacks of the strong character, and encourage the strong character to use his resources to buff allies instead of directly eliminating opponents.
...is verbally aggressive with other players, that's a problem, and it's your job to handle it.
...is disruptive, hogs the spotlight, or makes the game unenjoyable for others, that's a problem, and it's your job to stop it.
...acquires level-appropriate forms of magical travel or divination and becomes unusually proficient at unravelling problem situations and bypassing obstacles, that's a good thing, even if it challenges you to build your adventures differently.
...becomes unusually proficient at one thing, like persuading people or dealing damage in melee or tripping enemies, that's a good thing, even if it challenges you to build your encounters differently.


Edit: They're out of print now and hard to find in second-hand bookstores, but if you can find them, I also recommend Roleplaying Mastery and Master of the Game, by Gary Gygax. They're as good as you'd expect from books about role-playing written by the father of role-playing games.