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TripperdeCleric
2010-03-30, 01:59 AM
Trying to optimise a level 10 druid for my gf...but having issues...can someone help make a very powerful druid to aid my artificer?


BTW: This is her first character

Hawk7915
2010-03-30, 02:24 AM
Step 1: Take Natural Spell

Step 2: Did you do step one? Good. Honestly, that's all druids need. Find a few good forms, and go to town. If you need better stuff...


1) Read the handbook: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19868802/Druid_Handbook_revived

2) She could just be a generalist in terms of feats, taking "good stuff" like Improved Initiative, Improved Toughness, Extend Spell, and Quicken spell. A "focus" would be better though. Some good ones include focusing on being a melee monster (and taking stuff like Improved Natural Attack, Multiattack, Lion's Pounce, and maybe Improved Unarmed Strike - Improved Grapple), or a summoner (Spell Focus into Augment Summoning into maybe Imbue Summoning, and maybe Greenbound), or she could play it as a healer (Touch of Healing + Imbued Healing or something). . . as you can see, lots of options and with 3 feats to play with at least she can even do more than one of those things.

3) Since it's her first character, pick a few common, great forms at this level and just use them, rather than looking up new forms every session. The core forms she'll have access to at this level are Polar Bear or Dire Lion (for offense), and Dire Bat (for defense/flight/scouting). If you have more books, the Fleshraker Dinosaur, which is one of the best offensive forms and best companions a druid can ever get.

4) Do the same for spells: have a "dungeon", "battlefield", and maybe "city/scouting/down-time" spell list and don't deviate from those prepared spells. The best "high level" spells she can have right now would be Animal Growth, Call Lightning Storm, Baleful Polymorph, Flamestrike, and Freedom of Movement.

JeminiZero
2010-03-30, 02:24 AM
What sources are allowed. Without going outside Core, some good feats for Druids are:

1. Spell Focus Conjuration
3. Augment Summoning
6. Natural Spell

Shalist
2010-03-30, 02:27 AM
Books...stats...restrictions...LA allowed?...

A quick repost from the same question, different forum:

Here's a really nice list of LA+0 (no level adjustment) races (LA+0 races).

The Anthromorphic Bat (-4 Str +6 Wis -2 Cha, small, 5 ft. (fly 20 ft. average), blindsense (ex), stands out as the real winner here. Your landspeed bites (5'), but you can fly. Also, you're small, so finding an animal companion to ride (highly recommended, ride is a class skill) should be easy. Also, at level 3, you can cast 'aeriel alaracity,' +30' to your fly speed for hr/lvl.

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On a side note, the same book that has that race, also has a LA+1 'feral' template (pg 115) that's brokenly good worth it. It starts off very powerful. +6 natural AC and fast heal 2 (psuedo-troll regeneration). You get +10 land movement and nice stat bonuses ( combined with the above race, you'd have +0 str, -2 dex, +2 con, +8 wis, -2 cha, -4 int). As you level, it gives you some nifty feats like 'pounce,' (pounce = awesomeness for wildshape mobility), and 'fast heal' improves a bit. Don't be surprised if your DM says 'nay' when he sees it, but it does fit the non-human druid flavor very nicely :P

If you want to tweak stats even more, being 'middle aged' is +1 mental -1 physical, which might mesh with your dice rolls, or not. You still need con for HP, so don't get too wildshape-happy.

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Here's a the ultimate List o' Lists of Stuff (http://69.8.198.229/showthread.php?t=662842). All the ways to obtain this class feature, or be immune to that, or to increase this, etc..." An incredibly useful reference.

Here's the list of 'alternate class features (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872054/Alternative_Class_Features_III).' They mostly suck, but the 'elemental companion' might be nice for flavor, and 'nature's grace -> heat endurance' (crap -> crap) counts as endurance, saving you a feat for PrC prereqs.

And also required reading if you have one stat that's like 10+ higher than the rest...how to use one stat instead of another (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732). For example, "Intuitive Strike" lets you use wisdom instead of strength for your to-hit (BAB+1, can't take at lvl 1). If your wildshape strength is anywhere close to your wisdom (24 + magic =>28 easy), this isn't such a clearcut winner, but I doubt that'll be likely.

Here's some searchable databases (http://www.imarvintpa.com/dndLive/FindSpell.php) of virtually all 3.5 stuff--particularly spells and magic items. The search is a bit clunky at first, and details are skimpy on stuff from liscensed books, but once you figure it out, you'll love it. (list all druid spells wtih a will save, or any item that has 'fire' in its description...etc)

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How does she want to play the character? 'Beastmaster' boosts her animal companions tons, a bit of 'master of many forms' can do wonders for her wild shaping, etc etc.

edit:

Also, Another druid handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1354.0)

Great for finding lists of stuff to summon or cast at a given level, or to shift into, or to have as an animal companion, etc.

TripperdeCleric
2010-03-30, 02:47 AM
All books allowed.

no real rules..just need a good setup for the character including stats and stuff


i think she wants to abuse wild shape

Gnaeus
2010-03-30, 05:01 AM
All books allowed.

no real rules..just need a good setup for the character including stats and stuff

i think she wants to abuse wild shape

Then you probably want a wild shape feat (Draconic wildshape is good at 12. At 9 you could take Frozen Wildshape, which at that level lets you turn into the talking, weapon using armored bears from The Golden Compass, but at higher levels gives Cryohydra).

You want wildling clasps from Magic Item Compendium. One for every body slot. They are cheap and they let you use items in wildshape.

Ask her for a couple of animals that she wants to turn into. Then you pick a couple more. Stat out index cards or character sheets for each form, including all the magic items with wildling clasps. She will have enough math working through the grapple rules without recalculating her stats all the time.

IthilanorStPete
2010-03-30, 06:40 AM
Why are you making a druid as someone's first character? They're powerful, yes, but also rather work-intensive to keep track of everything, and generally not a good class for someone starting out.

Gnaeus
2010-03-30, 07:27 AM
Why are you making a druid as someone's first character? They're powerful, yes, but also rather work-intensive to keep track of everything, and generally not a good class for someone starting out.

Druids are a great class for someone starting out. They are hard to screw up in build. Hard to kill. Suited to many play styles. Almost never irrelevant to the game. If you explain how swapping for summon natures ally works she can pick spells completely at random and slowly learn her spell list, while never not having anything to do.

If I had a starting player I would always direct them towards cleric or druid if they didn't express a strong preference in another direction.

Togo
2010-03-30, 07:35 AM
As a starting character, a druid is an odd choice. She has to run her own spell list, her own animal companion, and occasionally chuck in the spellcasting thing to change shape. It's good in that it gives a her a taste of everything, so she can find her own place in the game. It's bad in that it gives her a lot to worry about.

If she's particularly attracted to wildshape, maybe Master of Many Forms? (complete adventurer). The advantage of this is that it's a wildshape specialist. You have 5 levels of spellcasting so you can get the hang of it, but the spells aren't the core of the classs, and if you end up neglecting them in combat, it's no big deal. The animal companion is similarly not advanced, so it's more of a pet or a mount than a combat feature. Meanwhile you can turn into some very nasty monsters, a wide variety of creatures, and even try and duplicate other people. Give her a selection of monster forms to start off with, and as soon as she encounters more monsters, she can duplicate them. Monster encounters become more interesting when each one is a new potential class feature. And with peak power on a MoMFs build being 12th level, you've got a lot to look forward to if the game lasts beyond the first few sessions.

Go druid 5, MoMFs 5, and get fast wildshape. Don't forget to cast healthful rest, and if you can, get a periapt of healing(DMG) on a wildling clasp(MIC).

I'd recommend something like:

Feats: alertness, endurance, fast wild shape, natural spell, practiced spellcaster

Human is a good race for this, allowing the bonus feat above and more skills. Dump str, and don't worry about a really big wis - you only need a 13 and anything above 16 doesn't really help you - and get charisma and intelligence for the skills and roleplaying potential.
For skills, max out spot, since you have alertness and a high wisdom already, there are many items, spells and wildshape bonuses that boost spot, and generally speaking they all stack. You may also want some combination of hide and move silently if you want to creep around, disguise for imitating other people, heal for stabalising people, and listen to back up spot. Concentration isn't really all that important, but may be useful to avoid frustrating a new player.

Make sure she has a weapon, and at least an entangle or two, because sooner or later she'll run out of shifts per day, and be reduced to something far less powerful.

The key points here are to make sure you and your DM know how all the shifting rules work. What happens to your hps when you change shape, what happens to your gear, and so on. Nothing turns a new player off like her character reducing everyone else on the table to arguing.

Togo

TheMadLinguist
2010-03-30, 07:38 AM
Druids are a great class for someone starting out. They are hard to screw up in build. Hard to kill. Suited to many play styles. Almost never irrelevant to the game. If you explain how swapping for summon natures ally works she can pick spells completely at random and slowly learn her spell list, while never not having anything to do.

If I had a starting player I would always direct them towards cleric or druid if they didn't express a strong preference in another direction.

Yeah. I push them towards Druid or warlock. Druid have so many awesome things that they'll be fine as long as someone gives them a bit of advice for wildshape forms or animal companion. "My bear eats someone" is easy do decide upon.

If they need a power boost as a warlock, binder + hellfire warlock is fun too - mechanics are simple and worst-case they've got pretty good point and shoot. Plus, the flavor of making a contract with Cerberus to smuggle hellfire is really cool.

Hawk7915
2010-03-30, 09:26 AM
It's hard for us to post stats when we don't know if she rolled, or if its on a point-buy, or an array, or whatever. However, in general, the stats a Druid cares about are, in order. . .

WISDOM: The most important stat; governs spellcasting.

CONSTITUTION: Wildshape does change your constitution, but it no longer changes your max HP. With only a d8 hit die, you want a really high constitution; the higher the better. Second only to wisdom.

INTELLIGENCE: Extra languages, extra skill points, unaffected by wildshaping.

CHARISMA: Druids have diplomacy as a class skill plus Wild Empathy, making them great negotiators. As this stat is unaffected by shapeshifting, having it at least not be negative is nice.

DEXTERITY: Replaced when you wildshape, so totally useless after level 7 since she'll be an animal all day. Before level 5 it's nice to have a 12 or 14 Dex for the AC, reflex, and ranged attack boost, but starting at 10 it could be a 6 and it wouldn't matter to her.

STRENGTH: At low levels, a druid should stay at range. At mid to high levels, a druid is in bear form or lion form or dire tiger form and has a 20-something or 30-something strength from that. This is a total dump stat.

Everyman
2010-03-30, 10:09 AM
I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest the shapeshift variant from the PHBII. Yes, its not as powerful as the ol' fashioned druid. Yes, it is more MAD as well. However, it comes with the benefit of being less book-intensive (no worries about what animal to turn into or animal companion) AND still being satisfyingly powerful. The fact that she can choose to shapeshift as often as she wants, when she wants, is a great asset for a player who may not have the experience necessary to gauge when to use those options. Plus, she gets all the tasty druid spells she could want.

The best stat layout for such a build would probably be Str/Wis (depending on whether she'd rather fill a spellcasting or melee role more), followed by Con, Dex, Int and then Cha. I've never found Wild Empathy to be that great of a class feature until late levels, at which point a low Cha isn't really hurting you much. Give her some general feats for boosting her abilities (Power Attack, Extend Spell, Impr. Toughness), and she'd be set.

Asheram
2010-03-30, 10:53 AM
*stuff*

Go druid 5, MoMFs 5, and get fast wildshape. Don't forget to cast healthful rest, and if you can, get a periapt of healing(DMG) on a wildling clasp(MIC).

*stuff*

You might want to consider going warshaper after that if she wants to continue going wildshape. Druid 5 momf 5 gives 30 hours of continous wildshape, with 5 warshaper as well, she'll be able to shift from form to form as much as she wants without having to remember how many hours she've got left in a certain form.

Note, I know it's sub-optimal, but it makes things a bit easier in turn.

TripperdeCleric
2010-03-30, 02:07 PM
Thank you all for your help.

The reason she is starting druid is because that is what she wanted. There was no pushing her towards anything else.

Myself and the DM have decided to aid her along until she gets the hang of it.

She doesnt want to only wildshape..she wants her options now. I talked to her last night about it. She however really does like wildshaping.

Lets go ahead and give her some stats for yall to work with.

18
18
17
16
16
14

its a high powered campaign...mainly for fun and because she is one of three that will be new to the campaign now. So trying to make it interesting.

She is level 10.

Telonius
2010-03-30, 02:17 PM
Wow. Okay, so for the stats...

Normally I'd put the two 18s in Int and Wis, with the 17 in Cha. But since there's a stated desire to be outside of wildshape for a significant amount of time, Charisma is the least important.

STR 16
DEX 16
CON 18
INT 17
WIS 18
CHA 14

TripperdeCleric
2010-03-30, 02:21 PM
Wow. Okay, so for the stats...

Normally I'd put the two 18s in Int and Wis, with the 17 in Cha. But since there's a stated desire to be outside of wildshape for a significant amount of time, Charisma is the least important.

STR 16
DEX 16
CON 18
INT 17
WIS 18
CHA 14


Ok any suggestions for feats?

Eldariel
2010-03-30, 02:32 PM
Ok any suggestions for feats?

Natural Spell is still a solid choice. Combat feats like Multiattack [MM] and Power Attack are useful for Wildshape, as is stuff like Improved Grapple and Improved Trip (very nice for forms using those tactics naturally anyways), and the charger-line of Shock Trooper [CWar] > Leap Attack [CAdv] (many beasts Pounce naturally and there's Lion's Pounce [CChamp] for everyone else) along with Wildshape-enhancing feats like Frozen Wildshape [Frostburn] and Dragon Wildshape [Draconomicon].

Assume Supernatural Ability [Savage Species] is also nice, but a tad powerful. Aberration Wildshape [LoM] is also nice, but unsightly. Frozen Wildshape opens Cryohydra-form, which is real fun with Combat Reflexes > Robilar's Gambit [PHBII] (though available only level 15).


Other than that, Extend Spell and Quicken Spell are fine as ever on a caster, and Extending your Barkskins and Greater Magic Fangs is real nice. SF: Conjuration > Augment Summoning, if interested in summons, is also a solid option (though even if one isn't interested in summons, it's worth learning at least the few specialist summons as you have access to Spontaneous Summon SNA as a Druid) and then there's stuff like Empower Spell.

Then there's Natural Bond [CAdv] (for enhanced companion), Companion Spellbond [PHBII] (for spells working on longer ranges for companion), Exalted Companion [BoED] (for a Celestial companion), etc.


Those three focuses are the primary ones a Druid has. Of course, you can also pick Crafting feats, skill feats, etc. as Druids are a tad versatile.

TripperdeCleric
2010-03-30, 02:35 PM
I think its mainly going to be focused on wildshape...however she still wants to be able to do the other stuff.

So stick with Multi-attack and the other feats you listed there?

and any other ideas for the character in general?

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-03-30, 02:59 PM
Cheesy feats would be Exalted Companion, Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm), Natural Bond, and Natural Spell. Get a Celestial Fleshraker and give it Sacred Vow and Vow of Poverty, so it gets bonuses as though it were fully geared and you don't have to spend anything on it. If Human take Companion Spellbond as well, but I'd recommend a small size race such as Whisper Gnome or Water Halfling.

Your Item Familiar must first be a magic item worth at least 2,000 gp, not counting a base masterwork item. I'd make it a suit of +1 Studded Leather with the Easy Travel property. Upgrade it to Armor of the Beast yourself for half price, so it would cost a total of 15,175 gold and 1,000 XP, and the end result would be Armor of the Beast with Easy Travel added as well as any Item Familiar benefits. You'll want to invest as much as possible into it, as there is no drawback unless the item is lost or destroyed. Be sure to have taken it at level 3 to invest as many skill points as possible. I'd actually start with Int 18 and Con 17, and put your 4th level point into Con. That way at level 10 you'll have invested 56 skill points into it, for +18 divided among your skills as you choose (or if human, 63 skill points invested, for +21 divided up). Its special ability should be Spell Use, so it could cast something like Barkskin, Bull's Strength, or Mass Snake's Swiftness for you so you wouldn't have to spend an action to do it.

At level 10 you should have 33,825 gold remaining for other items. I'd get a Mantle of the Beast and Ring of the Beast, a Lesser Rod of Extend, and a Wilding Clasp to attach to the rod now and once you get another item move it to that. Also get a Wand of Lesser Vigor to heal up between fights. Alternatively you could get a second Lesser Rod of Extend (you won't regret it) and maybe a second wand or perhaps a few Unguent of Timelessness to put on some Bone Talisman (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20040721a) spell foci, so each casting will last about 60 hours per caster level. That will let you get a few ready during downtime, or have a few prepared each day to cast before you rest for the night, since they can be converted into Summon Nature's Ally anyway. Each Unguent will work on eight bone talismans, and there is no limit to how many times it can be recast on each one since the unguent remains forever. That will even open up the possibility of Divine Metamagic, or just use them to Turn Undead in case you need it.

TripperdeCleric
2010-03-30, 03:57 PM
natural spell looks pretty nice. Thank you.


So whats the correct build for the optimized druid? focused on shifting

Lycanthromancer
2010-03-30, 04:16 PM
natural spell looks pretty nice. Thank you.


So whats the correct build for the optimized druid? focused on shiftingDruid 20, Natural Spell. Anything else is gravy.

Seriously, they're that good.

You could always go Vow of Poverty druid 20, taking soulmeld feats from Magic of Incarnum. Amazing synergy there, if you're [Good].

TripperdeCleric
2010-03-30, 04:18 PM
Yep good characters.

Ok if its really that good heh..then ill just let her pick from the books

jiriku
2010-03-30, 04:29 PM
There's a feat chain she can take that lets her wildshape as a move action, then as a swift action. This is pretty handy in conjunction with the spell healthful rest, which lasts all day and doubles the healing she gets when she wildshapes -- switching forms every round becomes a viable method of self-healing.

I definitely second the recommendation that she's going to need pre-prepared cards with her stats in various forms, the stats of her companions, and the stats of creatures she's likely to summon. My druid player actually built himself a spreadsheet to calculate all the changes for him.

TripperdeCleric
2010-03-30, 04:37 PM
Ill do the cards for her..that is a good idea.


what is that feat chain you speak of?