To kill a lich

[Liwen]

What would it take for the order to defeat Xykon with their current abilities and resources?

My suggestion :
Use army of elf and human insurgents to distract the hobos
Dig the money for a scroll of extended antimagic field.
6 sledgehammers and a full circle. Interference from Redcloak and Tsukiko would be nearly impossible. Both are caster and the antimagic field would neutralize their ability to help. Only option is to go in melee. We know Redcloak and Tsuki aren't melee fighters at all and carry no weapon, just like Xykon. They would get owned if they ever come close to the Order.
About 7-8 rounds of pounding.
Scry on Xykon went he start regenerating.
Teleport to him.
Proceed to pound the regenerating body.
Take phylactery, dispel all protections, pound it to dust.
The end!

[lord_khaine]

You missed the part where Tsukiko can blast anyone inside the field with
Elemental Orbs.

[Dr.Epic]

What would it take for the order to defeat Xykon with their current abilities and resources?

My suggestion :
Use army of elf and human insurgents to distract the hobos
Dig the money for a scroll of extended antimagic field.
6 sledgehammers and a full circle. Interference from Redcloak and Tsukiko would be nearly impossible. Both are caster and the antimagic field would neutralize their ability to help. Only option is to go in melee. We know Redcloak and Tsuki aren't melee fighters at all and carry no weapon, just like Xykon. They would get owned if they ever come close to the Order.
About 7-8 rounds of pounding.
Scry on Xykon went he start regenerating.
Teleport to him.
Proceed to pound the regenerating body.
Take phylactery, dispel all protections, pound it to dust.
The end!

You make it sound far too easy.
-Where they getting an army with enough people who are even high enough level?
-You left out the MitD who is all melee and unaffected by antimagic fields.
-I'm sure a super genius like Red Cloak would have a way to counter antimagic fields (look at what happened to V when s/he teleported into Xykon's tower).
-Not to mention Tsukiko's undead legion.
-How's the order going to teleport to Xykon after they scry on him? V learned a spell for his banned schools?

[Arzoo]

Doesn't superb dispelling work on an anti-magic field the same way disjunction does (it's epic right?)

[Liwen]

You missed the part where Tsukiko can blast anyone inside the field with
Elemental Orbs.

Elemental Orbs break antimagic fields? I want proof!

For Dr. Epic :

They already 'have' the army. The resistance. There goal is to halt the hobos for about 10 rounds that it would take to pound Xykon, then retreat. Heck, assuming this would be an ambush and not an open assault, they might not even need more than 10 people. And these 10 peoples would probably have good opportunities to help to order by attacking Redcloak and Tsukiko. But remember the real aim here is to kill Xykon, once he's down. There's no way Redcloak and Tsukiko can win in a straight fight vs the Order.
Yes I forgot about the MitD. Here's the fix : have O-Chul distract him for the entire fight with a game of Go.
The 'Super Genius Redcloak' ain't a super genius. These traps were conveniently plot induced anti Time Stop devices. Redcloak is smart, but he is a magic specialist, Antimagic Field removes just about all of his options. His last call is the MitD or the hobo army, which are being taken care off (theoretically, MitD is really the biggest liability of this plan).
Tsukiko undead legion vs a cleric of Thor that is presumably within her level range. Durkon can take care of her solo. If worst come to worst. Roy and him can grab and ground lock Xykon while the other 4 members take care of a bunch of low level wights.
For teleportation, team peregrine has already proven themselves capable of such a feat. Being of the same side of the Order and presumably already helping them in the first place, they can compensate for V's inability to cast teleport.

The thing that need to be realized here is that team evil has 3 casters and a single, unpredictable asset, the MitD. But I can see him being confused by O-Chul for long enough for the deed to happen. Team Evil can't magically convince MitD to attack, again because of the Antimagic Field.

Really all that is needed to neutralize Xykon is the Order, an AMF, a good diplomacy check vs MitD, two dozens low to mid levels helpers to stop the low level minion army from interfering and some no magical maces.

But if you have an even better idea, I would love to hear it. This is only one suggestion that I believe has a reasonable chance of success. But ANY suggestions you will bring here are doomed to fail anyway, by virtue of plot. Just saying, imagine this would be a classic D&D game where Rich hasn't ploted out the conclusion of his epic story already, and the DM is leaving to players to come up with the winning strategy. How would you do it?

Edit : Arzoo : Any epic magic has a chance of breaking an AMF. AMF scrolls aren't so pricey, especially for characters of the Order's level. So let's have 2-3 of them and we should be fine. How many Epic spells slots can Xykon have anyway?

[shadowkiller]

You make it sound far too easy.
-Where they getting an army with enough people who are even high enough level?
-You left out the MitD who is all melee and unaffected by antimagic fields.
-I'm sure a super genius like Red Cloak would have a way to counter antimagic fields (look at what happened to V when s/he teleported into Xykon's tower).
-Not to mention Tsukiko's undead legion.
-How's the order going to teleport to Xykon after they scry on him? V learned a spell for his banned schools?

- Put up a sign at a tavern for adventures wanted
- bring O-Chul who might be able to turn MitD to the good side
- good point but it might take him a few rounds to counter it and you could keep him busy with a couple high level melee attackers
- have the previously mentioned adventures deal with them
- Find another high level caster, maybe Girard

[Imgran]

Final step of the plan fails the "duh" test.

Xykon is Cloistered. You can't scry on him. The question of whether that'd apply to his phylactery-regenerating self as well is at least possible.

[Emperor Ing]

Elemental Orbs break antimagic fields? I want proof!

Orb spells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/acidSplash.htm) ignore Spell Resistance, and for this reason their ability to enter antimagic fields is widely accepted.

[WowWeird]

Scry on Xykon went he start regenerating.
Teleport to him.
Proceed to pound the regenerating body.
Take phylactery, dispel all protections, pound it to dust.
The end!

Yeah, the Teleport thing has already been addressed, but they can't scry on Xykon (Cloister) and they can't scry the phylactery- it has the best anti-detection spells known to an epic-level caster on it.
Oh, and scry-and-die tactics have been proven to not be the best tactic against Xykon- it leads you to think you know everything, when Xykon will likely have a few more tricks (or at least Redcloak made Xykon put some up)
So... not such a hot idea. And they don't just need to hold OFF the hobbos- they need to fight their way THROUGH hobbos, with due credit to Cloister for banning teleportation straight to X. Statistically, that's on in 20e hits dealing 2d8 to the party member- and still, we can't assume the anti-magic traps were the only little surprises they have.
Not going to happen.
Oh, and Xykon can deal 2d8+5 on a melee touch attack, and attempt to paralyze. Given that the Constitution king, O-Chul, was thwarted, it's a pretty high save DC. Xykon may not have done anything melee-oriented, but lichs ALWAYS have a weapon.

So Yeah.:smallwink:

[Harr]

Dig the money for a scroll of extended antimagic field.

You say that like it just involves looking between the couch cushions for some spare change and hopping on down to the grocery store where they have high-level spell scrolls sitting next to the apples.


Take phylactery, dispel all protections, pound it to dust.

You say that like they're just gonna press a "Dispel All Protections" button and just *pop*, all (high-level, maybe epic) protections dispelled.

If either of those things were that easy, they would already have been done.

[SoC175]

Orb spells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/acidSplash.htm) ignore Spell Resistance, and for this reason their ability to enter antimagic fields is widely accepted. First of all, you are the first person I ever saw making this claim, secondly it's incorrect. Ignoring SR has nothing to do with being affected by AMFs (e.g. all (Su) effects and abilities ignore SR, none of them works in an AMF).

PS: Ignoring SR ignores magic immunity (which is essentially an unbeatable SR)

[Ozymandias9]

Elemental Orbs break antimagic fields? I want proof!



The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an antimagic field because the conjuration itself is no longer in effect, only its result.

Thus, since the most recent version of the elemental orb series are instantaneous conjurations, they work as long as the caster isn't in the field while casting.

However, Tsukiko referred to the one she cast as an evocation, so it is possible that in Stickworld the older Evocation version of the series is used instead. If this is the case, the spells would not function through the field.

[Optimystik]

Thus, since the most recent version of the elemental orb series are instantaneous conjurations, they work as long as the caster isn't in the field while casting.

However, Tsukiko referred to the one she cast as an evocation, so it is possible that in Stickworld the older Evocation version of the series is used instead. If this is the case, the spells would not function through the field.

In 3.0, Orbs were Evocation. This was changed in 3.5.

Tsukiko may be using an old version, houseruled in. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0049.html) Or she may simply have said "evocation" when she really meant to say "conjuration."


Doesn't superb dispelling work on an anti-magic field the same way disjunction does (it's epic right?)

There's quite a bit of debate around this. On one hand, Superb Dispelling (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/superbDispelling.htm) says it works just like Dispel Magic - and AMF says Dispel Magic cannot remove it.

On the other hand, Superb Dispelling is created with the Dispel Seed, (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/seeds/dispel.htm) which explicitly dispels everything. It seems a bit counterintuitive that Superb Dispelling would not work on an AMF when a totally different epic spell, constructed exactly like Superb Dispelling but given a different description, would.

Personally, I would rule that Superb Dispelling can shut down an AMF.

[Dark Matter]

Yes... but could you cast Superb Dispelling from inside a AMF?

[Ozymandias9]

Yes... but could you cast Superb Dispelling from inside a AMF?

It's an epic spell, so yes.

[Kish]

You can cast any epic-level spell from inside an anti-magic field. There's a caster level check, which Xykon would probably make easily.

[Dr.Epic]

They already 'have' the army. The resistance. There goal is to halt the hobos for about 10 rounds that it would take to pound Xykon, then retreat. Heck, assuming this would be an ambush and not an open assault, they might not even need more than 10 people. And these 10 peoples would probably have good opportunities to help to order by attacking Redcloak and Tsukiko. But remember the real aim here is to kill Xykon, once he's down. There's no way Redcloak and Tsukiko can win in a straight fight vs the Order.

I think you underestimate the power of the resistance. How many members do they have? How many have we seen? I think it's safe to say they only have a few hundred members which is nothing in comparison to the hobgoblins. Assuming they have the spells to cast antimagic field, and the melee to take down Xykon (his HD are d12 and he has DR up the roof), how are they going to set up this nearly impossible ambush?

[denthor]

Orb spells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/acidSplash.htm) ignore Spell Resistance, and for this reason their ability to enter antimagic fields is widely accepted.

A magic arrow become a master worked arrow in an anti magic shield.

Just as a magic sword becomes a master worked sword. No bonus to hit or damage that is magic. Thus a +4 flaming long sword +4 to hit and damage 1d8+ 1d6 fire damage +4 damage +strength of wielder

becomes a +1 to hit Damage 1d8+ strength of wielder

An anti magic shied stops all magic from working within it.

Very nasty spell if you rely on magic for all encounters.

[Dark Matter]

...Assuming they have the spells to cast antimagic field, and the melee to take down Xykon (his HD are d12 and he has DR up the roof), how are they going to set up this nearly impossible ambush?AMF nerfs Spell-Like & Supernatural abilities, his DR would be Supernatural I think.

EDIT: Yes. He'd keep his Turn Resistance, His immunity to Cold/Polymorph/electricity/mind magic, and his +5 to AC, but that's pretty much it.

No more Fear Aura, no more paralyzing touch, no more DR.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#extraordinaryAbilities
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lich.htm

[derfenrirwolv]

Orb spells ignore Spell Resistance, and for this reason their ability to enter antimagic fields is widely accepted.

Conjured cirtters ignore spell resistance too, but they're a no go inside an AMF.

[NerfTW]

First off, we the readers know Xykon isn't taking the army with him. It's too large to move quickly. It's conceivable the order would assume the same.

Attacking Xykon when he's with the army when they KNOW he has to go after a gate at some point is rather stupid. So scry and die is not a good idea. They're better off building an actual fortification at the gate they know Xykon is heading towards.

The resistance is not going to be a factor in any battle with Xykon. They need to stay behind and retake the city while Xykon is away. Split up the army and the lich, don't take them on together.

I'd say right now, they're taking the best option available. Find Girard and whatever army he has, and wait to ambush Xykon on their terms. We already know from SOD that the Order of the Scribble is epic level and each individual member is capable of going toe to toe with Xykon. Add in the Order (and possibly Serini's help), and they have a good shot at winning. Remember that Xykon still doesn't know or give a damn who the Order is or that they're protecting a gate. He thinks Roy is a random mercenary and V was an elven assassin. He hasn't met any others.

[Optimystik]

Conjured cirtters ignore spell resistance too, but they're a no go inside an AMF.

Summoned creatures are a no-go in an AMF. Called ones work just fine.

Both are "conjured."

[Forbiddenwar]

On AMFs:


From SRD
The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an antimagic field because the conjuration itself is no longer in effect, only its result.


So, yes immunity to spell resistence has nothing to do with AMF.
And yes, all orb spells cast outside of an AMF with a target inside work normally.
Can we move on now?

An epic Lich in a AMF is still very scary as the following still work:
has a touch attack that uses negative energy to deal 1d8+5 points of damage to living creatures
A lich has a +5 natural armor bonus
All Epic Spells
A lich has +4 turn resistance
Liches have immunity to cold, electricity, polymorph (though they can use polymorph effects on themselves), and mind-affecting attacks.

Not to mention the ease it is to walk out.

:xykon: Oh, no a AMF, whatever am I to do?
(walks 10 feet away from the caster, flys (overland flight is still active) up 50 feet) Maximized Meteor storm. Maximized Meteor storm. Maximized Meteor storm. Maximized Meteor storm. Maximized Meteor storm. Maximized Meteor storm. Maximized Meteor storm. Maximized Meteor storm.

And that's assuming you lived long enopugh to get within 10 feet of him

[derfenrirwolv]

A miracle.

And i don't mean the measly little 9th level spell

[Fitzclowningham]

Liches have immunity to cold, electricity, polymorph (though they can use polymorph effects on themselves), and mind-affecting attacks.

Actually, I'm not sure they can use polymorph effects on themselves. The description (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorph.htm) in SRD says the target of Polymorph can be "Any willing living creature touched." I'm pretty sure Xykon falls outside of that definition. Whether Liches can change with Polymorph Any Object (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shapechange.htm) is a lot less clear: do they qualify as either objects or creatures? I suppose he could Shapechange (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shapechange.htm), though.

I originally looked this up to see if Xykon could have used one of these to taste coffee again.

[Dancing_Fox]

An epic Lich in a AMF is still very scary as the following still work:
has a touch attack that uses negative energy to deal 1d8+5 points of damage to living creatures

Just on the "touch attack" - could Xyklon have used it when in two separate pieces when held by Roy?

Roy holds the skull in one hand, and the apparently inert body in the other.

Could Xyklon's skull have made a touch attack? Or would it be ruled that he would have had to use his bony hands (Which being out of action, would mean that he couldn't.)?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#touchAttacks

"Touch Attacks
Some attacks disregard armor, including shields and natural armor. In these cases, the attacker makes a touch attack roll (either ranged or melee). When you are the target of a touch attack, your AC doesn’t include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. All other modifiers, such as your size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) apply normally."

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#attackRoll

"Attack Roll
An attack roll represents your attempt to strike your opponent on your turn in a round. When you make an attack roll, you roll a d20 and add your attack bonus. (Other modifiers may also apply to this roll.) If your result equals or beats the target’s Armor Class, you hit and deal damage."

I'm assuming that it would be near impossible for Xyklon to "bite" Roy from that position.

So my answer to my own question is that he couldn't. Set me straight if you disagree.

[derfenrirwolv]

Since most players aren't undead, there's no standard status for being a de bodied head. The dm would have to wing it.

Roy holding the head however, does not mean that xykon can automatically activate his paralysing touch. Since to make a touch attack you have to, some how, attack your target i would say no. A de armed lich could still headbut or kick. A head might bite, but then if roys holding the head there's nothing for the head to leverage itself against to move.

So once beheaded, the lich is pretty much boned.

[WowWeird]

Liches have immunity to cold, electricity, polymorph (though they can use polymorph effects on themselves), and mind-affecting attacks.
This is what my 3.5 ed MM says, word for word. That leaves everything wiiiiiide open.

[Twilightwyrm]

Orb spells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/acidSplash.htm) ignore Spell Resistance, and for this reason their ability to enter antimagic fields is widely accepted.

Spell Resistance and anti-magic fields are not one and the same. Magic weapons and armor abilities ignore spell resistance, but they are still negated in anti-magic field. Dragons breath likewise ignores spell resistance, yet it is negated as well. Fact of the matter is, anti-magic fields negate any spells or spell-like abilities (Dispel/Disjunction variations aside) within them, hence spells that simply ignore spell resistance do not work in them.

[Forbiddenwar]

On AMFs:


So, yes immunity to spell resistence has nothing to do with AMF.
And yes, all orb spells cast outside of an AMF with a target inside work normally.
Can we move on now?


can we please move on?

[WowWeird]

AMF nerfs Spell-Like & Supernatural abilities, his DR would be Supernatural I think.

EDIT: Yes. He'd keep his Turn Resistance, His immunity to Cold/Polymorph/electricity/mind magic, and his +5 to AC, but that's pretty much it.

No more Fear Aura, no more paralyzing touch, no more DR.

Well, a lot of that depends on DM interpretation. I have a lich character in my group (the other two are a vampire and a lycanthrope :smallbiggrin:), and I ruled that since the lich is basically bones and dusty skin, the DR isn't magic- he's just made of something harder than flesh.
Then, for touch attack, the damage is dealt through negative energy. Open to interpretation whether they're calling negative energy from the plane (which would be magical) or they have a huge build-up of the stuff inside of them (which would be energy transference, and probably clear of the AMF).

A leap that may be based on a fallacy- if he keeps his turn resistance, then there's probably a way to turn undead in an antimagic field. Turning undead is blasting them with mild positive energy (were it strong positive, it could also heal living creatures). Because negative usually obeys the same rules as positive, that means negative energy would be transferable, hence touch attack still works. The problem is, just because he keeps turn resistance doesn't mean turning undead is possible, but the scenario is possible.


Then, for paralyzing touch, once again- is the paralyzation negative energy canceling out your positive energy, so you can't move, or is it just a mall spell attached to the standard lich template?

It all depends on negative energy, and if it works in an AMF.

I apologize for this lengthy post.

[Twilightwyrm]

An epic Lich in a AMF is still very scary as the following still work:
has a touch attack that uses negative energy to deal 1d8+5 points of damage to living creatures
A lich has a +5 natural armor bonus
All Epic Spells
A lich has +4 turn resistance
Liches have immunity to cold, electricity, polymorph (though they can use polymorph effects on themselves), and mind-affecting attacks.


Since when would negative energy work within an anti-magic field?

[Optimystik]

This is what my 3.5 ed MM says, word for word. That leaves everything wiiiiiide open.

Not everything by a long shot. They have all the standard undead immunities (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#undeadType) on top of their lich immunities, e.g. ability drain, poison, disease and other things not listed specifically in the lich entry.


Well, a lot of that depends on DM interpretation.

If by "interpretation" you mean "ignoring the rules" you'd be right. A lich's DR is (Su), so an AMF shuts it down.

[PirateMonk]

Then, for touch attack, the damage is dealt through negative energy. Open to interpretation whether they're calling negative energy from the plane (which would be magical) or they have a huge build-up of the stuff inside of them (which would be energy transference, and probably clear of the AMF).

A leap that may be based on a fallacy- if he keeps his turn resistance, then there's probably a way to turn undead in an antimagic field. Turning undead is blasting them with mild positive energy (were it strong positive, it could also heal living creatures). Because negative usually obeys the same rules as positive, that means negative energy would be transferable, hence touch attack still works. The problem is, just because he keeps turn resistance doesn't mean turning undead is possible, but the scenario is possible.


Then, for paralyzing touch, once again- is the paralyzation negative energy canceling out your positive energy, so you can't move, or is it just a mall spell attached to the standard lich template?

It all depends on negative energy, and if it works in an AMF.

Paralyzing Touch (and Turn Undead) are clearly labeled as Supernatural abilities, and thus don't work in an AMF.

[Forbiddenwar]

Since when would negative energy work within an anti-magic field?

Since when would it not?

[Optimystik]

Since when would it not?

Since it's a supernatural ability :smalltongue:

[Forbiddenwar]

Since it's a supernatural ability :smalltongue:

I can't find any evidence supporting that conclusion, can you?

[Optimystik]

I can't find any evidence supporting that conclusion, can you?

I know what you're about to get at; that the touch attack is not Supernatural even though the Paralyzing Touch is. But they are listed together in the statblocks of all the sample liches in Libris Mortis.

[Forbiddenwar]

I guess it is really up to the interpretation of the DM then, although I can't imagine a 6th level spell making it impossible for a character to attack anyone.

[Optimystik]

I guess it is really up to the interpretation of the DM then, although I can't imagine a 6th level spell making it impossible for a character to attack anyone.

It's not impossible, just impossible magically. The lich is free to grab a mace and swing, or move more than 10 feet away.

[Mystic Muse]

why is 1d8+5 negative energy damage so good anyway? that's a maximum of 13 damage.:smallconfused:

[Dark Matter]

What it comes down to is he largely remains immune to the things (Turn/Cold/Polymorph/Ability drain) which wouldn't work in a AMF anyway.

But he could be tackled and held down and be beaten into small pieces... except for the small problem that he's probably physically stronger than anyone short of MitD.

I think the best bet is to get the Snarl to do it. That probably side steps the whole "soul hidey place" issue to. Of course it also prevents him from being thrown into hell to suffer for his crimes... but it also removes the possibility of him becoming an arch-demon or whatever.

[slayerx]

Dig the money for a scroll of extended antimagic field.
Antimagic field has an area of effect of only 10 foot radius around the caster... this would mean V or durkon would have to remain within 10ft of Xykon... it would also be incredibly easy for Tsukiko and redcloak to get out of that small radius and thus use their magic (assuming the caster is making sure to stay close to Xykon)... and you can be sure the caster will be the primary target of all attacks... hell all someone needs to do is stop them from moving for about 5 seconds, as that's all the time Xykon will need to move out of the field and fly out of the spalls range

[shadowkiller]

Antimagic field has an area of effect of only 10 foot radius around the caster... this would mean V or durkon would have to remain within 10ft of Xykon... it would also be incredibly easy for Tsukiko and redcloak to get out of that small radius and thus use their magic (assuming the caster is making sure to stay close to Xykon)... and you can be sure the caster will be the primary target of all attacks... hell all someone needs to do is stop them from moving for about 5 seconds, as that's all the time Xykon will need to move out of the field and fly out of the spalls range

Ok this might not be practical for the OotS but maybe one of the elven teams could do this. Have an Arcane archer imbue an arrow with an AMF and hit Xykon with that which will cause the AMF to be centered on Xykon making it so he can't move out of it.

[Mystic Muse]

Ok this might not be practical for the OotS but maybe one of the elven teams could do this. Have an Arcane archer imbue an arrow with an AMF and hit Xykon with that which will cause the AMF to be centered on Xykon making it so he can't move out of it.

does this actually work?

[Zeful]

Orb spells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/acidSplash.htm) ignore Spell Resistance, and for this reason their ability to enter antimagic fields is widely accepted.

Tsukiko isn't using conjurations, they're explicitly Evocations (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0518.html)

[Occasional Sage]

does this actually work?

Seems to (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/arcaneArcher.htm#imbueArrow), yeah. Though you'd need a rather beefy Arcane Archer for what Stickworld seems to have.

[Forbiddenwar]

Tsukiko isn't using conjurations, they're explicitly Evocations (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0518.html)

Ah, but as described on the previous page, the spell she actually casts is not an evocation but a conjuration. Mark it down as a typo.

[Ozymandias9]

Seems to (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/arcaneArcher.htm#imbueArrow), yeah. Though you'd need a rather beefy Arcane Archer for what Stickworld seems to have.

Depends on how you rule "where the arrow lands:" does hitting Xykon with the arrow make the AMF center on him or on where he was standing. The former is far more troublesome (though still probably negatable through Suburb Dispelling), the latter merely makes him move 10 feet.

I would probably rule the former, merely because I like it better. But given that the ability's functionality is described primarily in terms of range enhancement, that's probably not a ruling that's in keeping with RAI.


Ah, but as described on the previous page, the spell she actually casts is not an evocation but a conjuration. Mark it down as a typo.

The last page also noted that there are evocation versions, even if they are outdated. The situation is ambiguous at best, since we know of outdated spells being used in stickworld.

[Zeful]

Ah, but as described on the previous page, the spell she actually casts is not an evocation but a conjuration. Mark it down as a typo.

Really, where in the comic is the evidence behind that assertion? We have the primary source of information about the character (Tsukiko herself) saying that she researched (which makes her very likely a wizard as there was no mention of level ups) evocations without attack rolls, and uses a completely different naming convention (Electric/Acid Orb rather than Orb of Acid/Electricity) to identify the spell for us. Further, with her likely being a wizard as I mentioned above her Int and Spellcraft modifiers actually prevent her from making such an egregious mistake in the first place.

I'm leaning more toward Tsukiko being right and everyone who says otherwise being wrong. It makes much more sense.

[Liwen]

The AMF is an extended AMF of a 20 feet radius, not 10 feet, giving the order a more plausible chance to contain Xykon within the field. An alternative would be to bull rush him into a wall and have the Order completely surround him and keep him immobilized, or fight on a hex grid :smallbiggrin:

As to how they would provide the scroll, need I remind you they have the entire elven nation, including V's master, available. I'm sure if they spring the money and tell them why they want such a scroll, they would be much happy to oblige in making one.

Ambushing Xykon at Girard's gate would indeed be better, less minions in the way and the support of an epic character (presumably anyway) Redcloak would also be much less likely to have a contingency ready in the fashion of his anti arcane runes. The problem is finding the gate location and acquiring the support from Girard and his followers. Easier said than done, but the current storyline is slowly working it way toward that.

About AMF , from the SRD : The space within this barrier is impervious to most magical effects, including spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities.

That includes Xykon's negative energy attack and paralyzing touch and anything else about liches that falls into supernatural abilities and spell-like abilities, as well as all his no epic spells, including his favored energy drain and meteor swarm.

As for epic spells, again he only has a chance of casting his epic spells within the field, and even should he succeed, having a few other AMF scrolls available would be an effective counter. His repertoire of epic spells includes a dispel and a no offensive abjuration to our current knowledge.

About the scrying on his body. The reforming body of a lich is a new one, that hasn't been cloistered. Casting scry on Xykon while within the cloistered territory of Azure city would work, even if the phylactery is still within that area or outside. At least that's how I would rule it out. We could also simply wait for Xykon to reacquire the phylactery and grab it after the fight. Dispelling the phylactery's protections is a matter of time and dice rolls. Once Xykon is destroy and the phylactery is secured, they can take their sweet time figuring out how to destroy it. If nothing works, send it in the Snarl rift and be done with it. (oh that right, there's an enigmatic planet in there)

I'm not convinced orbs can break the AMF. Opinions on the matter seems to be equally shared between yes and no. I would favor no, but that's largely because this whole thing is my plan, and I would love it to work :smalltongue:.

I would love for someone else to bring completely fresh alternatives. So far this thread has been nothing but objections on my former plan and arguments about the ever misunderstood Antimagic Field spell. An epic level sorcerer lich of Xykon's caliber is not an impossible target to defeat. The only thing that's been keeping him alive is the power of storytelling. His death is already planned to go down a certain way. For the purpose of this thread, we are removing this asset and assuming control of the main characters, erasing their personality flaws. Our sole goal is to permanently erase Xykon from existence. This requires to destroy him and his phylactery.

Plenty of other options exist. From leveling up and coming back later to turning Redcloak on our side or forming an army of thousands to greet him at Girard's gate, etc.

[Captainocaptain]

How to kill Xykon:
step 1 - confront him at one of the gates
step 2 - throw him into the gate (roy has apparently been able to do this since the first gate)
step 3 - repeat for philactrophy
step 4 - repeat with remaining enemies (redcloak, tsukiko, etc.)

Bring O-chul along and the MitD is out of action.
EDIT: This plan relies on the fact that the first time Xykon was thrown into a gate, it destroyed his body. If that was caused by the specifics of that gate in particular, then this doesn't work. But I'm pretty sure the Snarl just unmakes everything that enters it, so this should be a viable plan.

[Ancalagon]

How to kill Xykon:
step 1 - confront him at one of the gates
step 2 - throw him into the gate (roy has apparently been able to do this since the first gate)

Problem: it wasn't the gate that blew Xykon up but Dorukan's over-powered protection-rune.

[Optimystik]

why is 1d8+5 negative energy damage so good anyway? that's a maximum of 13 damage.:smallconfused:

A touch attack for 1d8+5 unarmed is a lot better than an attack roll for 1d3 nonlethal that provokes an AoO, that's why.

[WowWeird]

Well, when somebody mentioned elves...
The Ambush option would work well once Xykon leaves. As he travels, set up some arcane archers who've attached Disjunction to their arrows. Proceed to rain death down on Xykon, targeting only him. Whil disjunction has a fairly low save DC, Xykon has a Constitution penalty. In the words of :vaarsuvius: "You will roll a natural one on your save eventually". Once disjoined, Redcloak and Tsukiko should be killed (Tsukiko through normal "smash the squishy wizard tactics, Redcloak... hmmm... probably raining lots of area spells (clerics don't do Reflex saves well)). The phylactery is still a problem I can't resolve. Any helpful ideas?

[Asta Kask]

What it would take? A nightsoil-load of luck.

[whitemane]

First of all, you are the first person I ever saw making this claim, secondly it's incorrect. Ignoring SR has nothing to do with being affected by AMFs (e.g. all (Su) effects and abilities ignore SR, none of them works in an AMF).

PS: Ignoring SR ignores magic immunity (which is essentially an unbeatable SR)

I agree with SoC175... Ignoring SR normally means that creatures with magic immunity (such as golems) can be affected by the spell... but it has nothing to do with AMFs.

As for how to kill Xykon... What you need is a sufficiently powerful Metallic dragon to cast anti-magic field... because then Xykon will become an animated set of bones, while the dragon will still be a dragon...

[Morthis]

Personally, I would rule that Superb Dispelling can shut down an AMF.

Honestly, I find it hard to believe anyone could rule any other way. You could make a spell based on the dispel seed, using +30 dispel check, 1 action casting time, mitigating factor 10d6 backlash. It would have the exact same stats as superb dispelling, the exact same cost, everything exactly the same, except it works on AMF. The only downside I could see is it takes 11 days to research (not sure if simply picking one of the epic spells from the book does too or not), which is fairly trivial for Xykon anyway.


As for epic spells, again he only has a chance of casting his epic spells within the field, and even should he succeed, having a few other AMF scrolls available would be an effective counter. His repertoire of epic spells includes a dispel and a no offensive abjuration to our current knowledge.

That chance is actually a very good chance. I believe the geekery thread has Xykon at level 27. So for AMF to suppress his epic spells, you'd need to roll 1d20 + 20 against a DC of 38.... Good luck.

So after he dispels AMF, he can use overland flight to easily outrange AMF before it can be recast (you can take your move action after your standard action right?). Even if he was so blocked in flying isn't possible, he could just quickened teleport.

Using AMF to stop Xykon has been mentioned before, but it's just not very realistic. He can deal with it too easily (as well he should, it'd be pretty silly if a powerful epic level lich sorcerer could be defeated by any random group of people with an AMF scroll).

[pendell]

Thinking about getting rid of Xykon ...


1) The very first thing we need is to positively identify the philactery and where it is. The Order knows he has a philactery, but may not be aware that it is Redcloak's holy symbol.

So the first thing we need is intelligence, intelligence, intelligence. Since scrying is blocked by cloister, it follows that we're going to have to infiltrate the party -- say, a character polymorphed into a hobgoblin.

Another possibility is if we can capture a high-ranking Team Evil member and rigorously interrogate them. I don't know what spells work to get information out of people -- some kind of mind-probe, perhaps? But the problem is that anyone who knows enough about Xykon to know about the philactery will be nearly as well protected as Xykon himself. Xykon might very well rescue the target or neutralize it so as to deny use the information the target carried.

But one way or another we need to know a LOT more about Xykon. What he does. How he's guarded. Who his allies are. Where his philactery is. What his philactery is and what it looks like. I don't see any way to get that information besides infiltration,interrogation, or both.

2) Get lots of assistance. I don't think the Order has the assets themselves. Inkyrius, Team Elf, Azure City Resistance -- we need all the resources we can get. That will make up for the lack of ability to teleport and so on -- our allies can provide what we lack.

2) Find some way to acquire the philactery at the same time as we kill Xykon. If we acquire the philactery early, Xykon will show up quickly and kill us all. If we wait too long, Redcloak will escape with it. So we have at least two objectives; this will require at least two teams.

3) Peel off Xykon's allies and drain off his daily spells. The best way to do this would be to get to his target gate first, wait for the defenses to neutralize or weaken as many of his allies as possible in addition to Xykon himself. With luck the defenses of Girard's gate will be at least as effective as those of Soon's gate, which might mean Xykon is down to magic missile.

4) At this point move in and destroy xykon. AMF + hammers doesn't seem like a bad idea. Alternatively, if there is a snarl rift or gate nearby, toss him in. It worked at the end of book 1, it will work again. While team 1 is neutralizing Xykon, team 2 will be acquiring the philactery.

5) Smash the philactery and we're done.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Morthis]

1) The very first thing we need is to positively identify the philactery and where it is. The Order knows he has a philactery, but may not be aware that it is Redcloak's holy symbol.

They know it's RC's holy symbol. O'Chul and V tried to destroy it.


2) Get lots of assistance. I don't think the Order has the assets themselves. Inkyrius, Team Elf, Azure City Resistance -- we need all the resources we can get. That will make up for the lack of ability to teleport and so on -- our allies can provide what we lack.

They need help from...a baker? What good could Inky do in a fight against Xykon besides dying?


2) Find some way to acquire the philactery at the same time as we kill Xykon. If we acquire the philactery early, Xykon will show up quickly and kill us all. If we wait too long, Redcloak will escape with it. So we have at least two objectives; this will require at least two teams.

Or just defeat RC and Tsukiko too, then you have 1d10 days to find the phylactery (might simply be regenerate over the span of 10 days in oots, or Xykon rolled poorly last time, who knows).


3) Peel off Xykon's allies and drain off his daily spells. The best way to do this would be to get to his target gate first, wait for the defenses to neutralize or weaken as many of his allies as possible in addition to Xykon himself. With luck the defenses of Girard's gate will be at least as effective as those of Soon's gate, which might mean Xykon is down to magic missile.

You realize the only way to drain his spells is back racking up the body count on the side of good right? You're essentially suggesting throwing hundreds of redshirts at him to finally run him out of spells, and then assume he'll push forward anyway instead of simply rest when he's down to useless spells. Xykon can be impatient, but I'm not sure he's that impatient.


4) At this point move in and destroy xykon. AMF + hammers doesn't seem like a bad idea. Alternatively, if there is a snarl rift or gate nearby, toss him in. It worked at the end of book 1, it will work again. While team 1 is neutralizing Xykon, team 2 will be acquiring the philactery.

That was pretty much plot power. It was the rune on the gate that caused it, not the gate itself (which is pretty harmless when still sealed, seeing how Shojo could rest his head against it). Either way, I wouldn't count on getting to fight Xykon on the ground again. If things get serious, he'll just fly up, negating both Roy and Belkar entirely.

[Aasimar]

Get the highest level paladin you can muster. At this point it's almost definitely O-Chul. (but Hinjo MAY be a better choice, if he has sufficiently better charisma or of he's got more Paladin levels, O-Chul has some levels of fighter as we recall)

Give him the items and enchantments necessary to boost his charisma as high as possible.

Lay on hands.

Of course you'll have to get rid of Xykon's ring somehow, the one that protects him from positive energy. Perhaps an antimagic field would suffice, but I don't know if lay on hands still works there.

Disjunction is probably the best choice, if V is high-level enough to cast it.

[Optimystik]

Get the highest level paladin you can muster. At this point it's almost definitely O-Chul. (but Hinjo MAY be a better choice, if he has sufficiently better charisma or of he's got more Paladin levels, O-Chul has some levels of fighter as we recall)

Personally, I don't see O-Chul with more than a level or two of paladin. He only uses one smite evil the entire fight (against Redcloak)


Give him the items and enchantments necessary to boost his charisma as high as possible.

Lay on hands.

Of course you'll have to get rid of Xykon's ring somehow, the one that protects him from positive energy. Perhaps an antimagic field would suffice, but I don't know if lay on hands still works there.

It doesn't (and in fact, an AMF will also disable all of O-Chul's buffs.) however a targeted dispel on Xykon should suppress the ring for a few rounds... though Xykon's will save is probably formidable.


Disjunction is probably the best choice, if V is high-level enough to cast it.

He was during the Splice... but not anymore.

[Zherog]

The AMF is an extended AMF of a 20 feet radius, not 10 feet, giving the order a more plausible chance to contain Xykon within the field.

Extend Spell affects the duration. The metamagic feat you're talking about is Widen Spell.


I'm not convinced orbs can break the AMF. Opinions on the matter seems to be equally shared between yes and no. I would favor no, but that's largely because this whole thing is my plan, and I would love it to work :smalltongue:.

It really depends on the spell. If Tsukiko spoke accurately (and I also believe she did), then she researched evocation spells, and so those would be blocked by the AMF. If, however, what she actually has is the various orb spells from Complete Arcane, then those are conjuration spells with an instantaneous duration. This quote was tossed up once already, but I'll repost it:


The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an antimagic field because the conjuration itself is no longer in effect, only its result.

So regardless of what you would favor, if those spells are conjurations then they work. (And for whatever it's worth, I'm in agreement with Zeful -- Tsukiko knows what she's talking about, and if she said evocation then that's what they are.)

[Optimystik]

So regardless of what you would favor, if those spells are conjurations then they work. (And for whatever it's worth, I'm in agreement with Zeful -- Tsukiko knows what she's talking about, and if she said evocation then that's what they are.)

I'm not so sure. We know the following:

a) OotS converted (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0001.html) from 3.0 to 3.5.
b) Spells changed schools (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0340.html) with the update, as expected.
c) Tsukiko first learned the Orbs long after (a), while fighting the resistance. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0518.html) ("After our last fight...")

So for them to be evocations just doesn't add up. Maybe she has an old version, but I'm not yet convinced.

And yes, I know about Zz'dtri's Fly, but he possessed the 3.0 version before the changeover, and merely kept it in his spellbook - and V's attitude upon hearing that suggests that he couldn't go out and buy that version himself. It's like having the 120GB PS3 with backwards compatibility; they just weren't being made anymore. In addition, the 3.0 Fly is the same school as the 3.5 one, so we can't be sure that his wouldn't have changed schools despite being houseruled in.

[Zherog]

I'm not so sure. We know the following:

a) OotS converted (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0001.html) from 3.0 to 3.5.
b) Spells changed schools (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0340.html) with the update, as expected.
c) Tsukiko first learned the Orbs long after (a), while fighting the resistance. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0518.html) ("After our last fight...")

So for them to be evocations just doesn't add up. Maybe she has an old version, but I'm not yet convinced.

Except Tsuky didn't say she went dumpster diving through books to find spells; she said she researched new spells. That certainly could be flavor to explain the dumpster diving. Or it could be exactly what it says -- she researched new evocation spells specifically to target Haley.

[Optimystik]

Except Tsuky didn't say she went dumpster diving through books to find spells; she said she researched new spells. That certainly could be flavor to explain the dumpster diving. Or it could be exactly what it says -- she researched new evocation spells specifically to target Haley.

She didn't say that at all. She said she "looked them up." Nothing about research, or new. "Looking them up" heavily implies that they already existed, not that she developed them from scratch.

[Zeful]

So for them to be evocations just doesn't add up. Maybe she has an old version, but I'm not yet convinced.

They use a completely different naming scheme to the 3.5 conjuration versions. And she calls them evocations. If she was wrong about one fact of the spell I'd be willing to toss it up to a typo (though I despise the Orb of X spells with the passion of a thousand suns (because really Wizards don't need more toys to dominate everyone else)), but she isn't. Two elements are different from the Conjuration version so I'm willing to say that Tsukiko's right and the spells are evocations.

[Zherog]

Hmmm... interesting. I was going off of this:


Really, where in the comic is the evidence behind that assertion? We have the primary source of information about the character (Tsukiko herself) saying that she researched (which makes her very likely a wizard as there was no mention of level ups) evocations without attack rolls, and uses a completely different naming convention (Electric/Acid Orb rather than Orb of Acid/Electricity) to identify the spell for us.

Because, frankly, I was too damn lazy to go figure out what comic it appeared in. Now, you've gone and forced me to read a bunch of old comics instead of doing work, just so I can find the one. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0518.html) I mean, that's such a burden you put me through, Optimystik, ;)

Anyway, yes, you're right. She looked up rather than research. I think it's still up in the air as to whether it's the 3.0 (evocation) version, or the 3.5 (conjuration) version.

[Optimystik]

They use a completely different naming scheme to the 3.5 conjuration versions.

Actually, you're mistaken - the orbs are also in Miniatures Handbook (The first 3.5 supplement) as conjurations, and follow the same naming scheme she used.

[amanojaku]

Didn't Roy have a spell on his sword that would have destroyed xykon in one hit, and that was before he had it recast with the star metal that supposedly has an even greater effect on undead?

So, get V to put that spell on roy's new sword and have roy whack x with it.

[Procyonpi]

I've go a simpler solution:
1. Introduce MitD to Thog
2. Have Thog teach MitD his "Bull Rush Tackle Hug" technique.
3. Get MitD to Bull Rush Tackle Hug Xykon.
4. Game. Over.

[Mystic Muse]

Didn't Roy have a spell on his sword that would have destroyed xykon in one hit, and that was before he had it recast with the star metal that supposedly has an even greater effect on undead?

So, get V to put that spell on roy's new sword and have roy whack x with it.

I believe that's a cleric only spell. Plus, Xykon can probably make the required save.I think it's only DC 14

[Shale]

Disrupt(ion)ing Weapon doesn't actually work like that. It only affects undead with HD up to the caster's caster level. And I think Rich is doing his level best to forget that he ever introduced a Kill-Xykon-In-One-Hit spell.

[Optimystik]

Didn't Roy have a spell on his sword that would have destroyed xykon in one hit, and that was before he had it recast with the star metal that supposedly has an even greater effect on undead?

So, get V to put that spell on roy's new sword and have roy whack x with it.

Correction - he thought it would have destroyed Xykon. Both he and Durkon tanked their Knowledge (Religion) checks, very badly. (Assuming they even tried to make them.)

[WowWeird]

Asta Kask- whom are you referring to?

If it was me, I guess you're right, because I a( called it Disjunction insteadof Disrupting Weapon, and b( I thought it was a FORTITUDE save, not Will. In my head, Xykon was undead and 27 sorcorer. That ends up with plus 3 to fortitude against DC 18. Not such a long shot after all.

Instead, it's a will save with bonuses up the wazoo, and it's a Cleric only spell, and it only works on undead with HD at or lower than caster level. Whoops!

When you made me notice I said Disjunction, I felt better because you need a 17th lvl caster to do it minimum, and how many of those are hanging around?

So, yeah. Not a snowballs chance in Hell for either spell.

[Optimystik]

Asta Kask- whom are you referring to?

If it was me, I guess you're right, because I a( called it Disjunction insteadof Disrupting Weapon, and b( I thought it was a FORTITUDE save, not Will. In my head, Xykon was undead and 27 sorcorer. That ends up with plus 3 to fortitude against DC 18. Not such a long shot after all.

Wha...? Disjunction (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesdisjunction.htm) is a will save. And it wouldn't do anything to Xykon's powers, just his items. Did you mean Disintegrate? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/disintegrate.htm) I'm not sure how you'd put that on an arrow, but you could just zap him with it instead.

[WowWeird]

I SAID (Mordenkainen's) Disjunction, but MEANT Disrupting Weapon. Explained in my edit, which I guess technically ninja'ed you:smallbiggrin:. Sorry about that.
Read the edit for more details

[Morthis]

Short of plot power, I just don't see how the order will beat Xykon. Even if some of Xykon's allies betray, he's taken some countermeasures for that in SoD.

[veti]

Short of plot power, I just don't see how the order will beat Xykon.

Well, they've done it before, because Xykon didn't take them seriously. Do we think he'll take them any more seriously next time?

As for killing him: the simplest approach I can think of involves an anti-magic field, knocking Xykon down (possibly by cancelling his Fly spell using said AMF), and multiple fighters or paladins standing around power-attacking with double-handed weapons. His damage resistance is only 15, prone AC would be maybe 12-13 - shouldn't be too much of a challenge.

[Morthis]

Well, they've done it before, because Xykon didn't take them seriously. Do we think he'll take them any more seriously next time?

As for killing him: the simplest approach I can think of involves an anti-magic field, knocking Xykon down (possibly by cancelling his Fly spell using said AMF), and multiple fighters or paladins standing around power-attacking with double-handed weapons. His damage resistance is only 15, prone AC would be maybe 12-13 - shouldn't be too much of a challenge.

The time they beat him was obviously plot power.

I've also already mentioned, AMF won't really do much good. You'd need to beat a DC 38 with 1d20 + 20 to stop Xykon from casting Superb Dispelling and dispel would only fail if Xykon rolled a 1 (assuming you auto fail on 1's for those DC checks, if not he'd succeed no matter what).

[Zherog]

In my head, Xykon was undead and 27 sorcorer. That ends up with plus 3 to fortitude against DC 18.

I don't follow you here. A 20th level sorcerer has +6 to Fort. I'm too lazy to go look up the epic progression, but even if it's +0, +6 still isn't +3.

[WowWeird]

Once you smash his body to dust, we still need to find his phylactery. Do we have any ideas there? I'm stuck.
Are there any spells that let you talk with dead souls? Speak With Dead accesses the body's memory, so don't even mention that one. If there are, Roy can die, use Eugene and the "Epic Inside" scrying, and relay the information without forgetting it as just a happy blur.
Oh, it doesn't work on objects... Crap. I'm done.

[Claudius Maximus]

And a lich has a base Con of zero in this scenario, or minus five. W/ Xykon at lvl 27 (class and levels geekery thread), his Fort from class is plus eight. Minus five for Constitution, and what do you get? Three!
Am I missing nything here?
And since the basic idea was wrong, the numbers don't really matter.

Xykon's constitution is not 0, but rather "-". An ability score of - has a modifier of +0.

His base save is +6, and he has an epic save bonus of +3. He probably has some kind of resistance bonus as well, but his fort is at least +9.

[Liwen]

Extend Spell affects the duration. The metamagic feat you're talking about is Widen Spell.



It really depends on the spell. If Tsukiko spoke accurately (and I also believe she did), then she researched evocation spells, and so those would be blocked by the AMF. If, however, what she actually has is the various orb spells from Complete Arcane, then those are conjuration spells with an instantaneous duration. This quote was tossed up once already, but I'll repost it:



So regardless of what you would favor, if those spells are conjurations then they work. (And for whatever it's worth, I'm in agreement with Zeful -- Tsukiko knows what she's talking about, and if she said evocation then that's what they are.)

You are certainly correct about the widen metamagic. My honest mistake. I'm afraid it's been a while since I've actually look them up.

I 'favor' that she is actually using evocations that are dismissed within an antimagic field. The rules about conjurations and the effect of an AMF on them are quite clear enough to me.

Claudius Maximus is right about the fort save being at least +9. I'd wager it's actually quite higher, given that a +9 on a save when you're level 27 is a unbearable weak point and how Xykon spends most of his time creating magical items, well 1/3 of his time anyway, but you know want I mean.

[spectralphoenix]

Even if Tsukiko's orbs don't work, she and Redcloak can use [calling] conjurations to bring in extraplanar allies to kill the guys attacking Xykon or fly him out of the AMF, or else she could use a scroll to disjoin the AMF directly. And yeah, the AMF won't stop Xykon from laying some epic level doom on his attackers.

Also, I find it pretty unlikely you'd be able to run up to Xykon, surround him, and read a scroll of AMF in the first place. Attacking his army means you've lost the element of surprise, and he's not going to sit around and wait for you to move all your guys into position before he starts lighting people on fire.

[pendell]

They need help from...a baker? What good could Inky do in a fight against Xykon besides dying?



My mistake. I meant V's master, the guy in the tower whom the imp was going to deliver a message to.



You realize the only way to drain his spells is back racking up the body count on the side of good right? You're essentially suggesting throwing hundreds of redshirts at him to finally run him out of spells, and then assume he'll push forward anyway instead of simply rest when he's down to useless spells. Xykon can be impatient, but I'm not sure he's that impatient.



No, I proposed using a third party -- the Gate's Defenses -- to drain his spell reserves, and we need to weaken those defenses to secure the gate anyway. So I propose using Xykon as a battering ram to get through the gate defenses, then get rid of him while he's weak and low on energy.



Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Garwain]

Now estimate the diplomacy check required to convince IFCC to let them win?

[WowWeird]

You're right about the lich thing being +0- I haven't actually looked up the standard undead strengths/weaknesses in a while. Sorry.

[SoC175]

Since when would negative energy work within an anti-magic field? It works in an AMF if it's not caused by a magical or supernatural ability. Negative energy itself is not magical.

[nerd-7i+e]

Presumably the Order knows that the Phylactery fell into the sewer.


Have Vaarsuvius create a staff containing 50 charges of Telekinesis.
Go to where the sewer meets the ocean.
Have Durkon cast Miracle (or have Vaarsuvius cast Wish) to replicate Wall of Thorns.
Have Vaarsuvius use all the charges in her staff and all her fifth-level spell slots to drain the water from the sewer.
The water will be brought through the Wall of Thorns (presumably it's not water-tight), but the Phylactery will be stopped (presumably it's Phylactery-tight).
Take the Phylactery.
Have Vaarsuvius create a staff with 50 charges of Bestow Curse.
Send to Xykon, telling him we have his Phylactery.
Cast Miracle or Wish on Blackwing to copy Reduce Animal.
When Xykon comes, use Blackwing to deliver all the charges on Xykon (since familiars can transfer touch spells), giving him a Sense Motive penalty of -200.
Have Elan Bluff that if Xykon allows them to kill him (probably through a Coup de Grace), they'll give Redcloak the Phylactery.
Help Xykon in assisted suicide.
Don't give Redcloak the Phylactery.
Take 20 on a Greater Dispel Check to remove the Phylactery's protections. Vaarsuvius can cast 9th-level spells, so s/he's at least level 17. So if s/he takes 20, s/he'll roll a 37. So unless Xykon is level 27+, the spells will be removed.
Destroy the Phylactery.

[Kish]

Take 20 on a Greater Dispel Check to remove the Phylactery's protections. Vaarsuvius can cast 9th-level spells,
No.

(Now, Spliced-Vaarsuvius could, if that's what you're thinking of.)

[Sholos]

Presumably the Order knows that the Phylactery fell into the sewer.
Why do you assume this? They have no way of knowing where the Phylactery fell.


Have Vaarsuvius create a staff containing 50 charges of Telekinesis.

Go to where the sewer meets the ocean.
Have Durkon cast Miracle (or have Vaarsuvius cast Wish) to replicate Wall of Thorns.
Which neither have access to.


Have Vaarsuvius use all the charges in her staff and all her fifth-level spell slots to drain the water from the sewer.
How does Telekinesis remove water from the sewer?


The water will be brought through the Wall of Thorns (presumably it's not water-tight), but the Phylactery will be stopped (presumably it's Phylactery-tight).

Take the Phylactery.
Have Vaarsuvius create a staff with 50 charges of Bestow Curse.
Send to Xykon, telling him we have his Phylactery.
Cast Miracle or Wish on Blackwing to copy Reduce Animal.
When Xykon comes, use Blackwing to deliver all the charges on Xykon (since familiars can transfer touch spells), giving him a Sense Motive penalty of -200.
First off, how do you expect Xykon to fail his Will save? Secondly, it won't stack (same source and all that). Third, how is a reduced Blackwing going to be carrying the staff? Finally, even assuming the first three objections were not valid, how is Blackwing going to survive the round immediately after the first attack?


Have Elan Bluff that if Xykon allows them to kill him (probably through a Coup de Grace), they'll give Redcloak the Phylactery.
Already explained why this won't work. Also, where is Redcloak this entire time?


Help Xykon in assisted suicide.
Don't give Redcloak the Phylactery.
Take 20 on a Greater Dispel Check to remove the Phylactery's protections. Vaarsuvius can cast 9th-level spells, so s/he's at least level 17. So if s/he takes 20, s/he'll roll a 37. So unless Xykon is level 27+, the spells will be removed.
Except that Vaarsuvius cannot cast 9th-level spells. Not to mention that you can't take 20 on a Dispel check, and a 20 wouldn't be enough for V's current level anyways.

Destroy the Phylactery.
Since it still has all its buffs, this is unlikely.

Also, this entire plan fails if the phylactery did not go to the ocean.

[derfenrirwolv]

Durkon casts Heal on elan, undoing the damage his brother did to him in infancy.

Elan poses as a hobgoblin using disguise self

Elan holds a concert singing traditional goblin tunes and fascinates redcloak

Elan suggests that red cloak turn against xykon

[amanojaku]

Durkon casts Heal on elan, undoing the damage his brother did to him in infancy.

Elan poses as a hobgoblin using disguise self

Elan holds a concert singing traditional goblin tunes and fascinates redcloak

Elan suggests that red cloak turn against xykon
Couldn't they cast the spell on elan that V cast on belkar to make him intelligent enough to heal elan, which V then foolishly removed?

[Kish]

1) Wisdom=/=Intelligence.
2) All that line of stat-boost spells have a duration of minutes.

[nerd-7i+e]

Why do you assume this? They have no way of knowing where the Phylactery fell.

Vaarsuvius was there when it happened. Blackwing was there when it happened. O-chul was there when it happened. Just about everyone on the good side has far too few ranks in Spot, but between the three of them they probably saw it fall into the sewer. And even if they somehow didn't, the Resistance will probably notice that just about every goblinoid in Azure City is searching through the sewers. Someone would doubtlessly connect the dots.



Which neither have access to.


How do you know? Durkon of course can't (unless he uses Miracle – I'm not sure if this is enough to create a staff). We only know that Vaarsuvius's barred school is Conjuration. Telekinesis is a Transmutation spell. She may not know Telekinesis, but any major city has an abundance of wizards, many of which she could buy the spell from.



How does Telekinesis remove water from the sewer?


The water exits to the ocean at some point. Use Telekinesis to move the water out that point at a faster rate. Suddenly the water is no longer pouring out of the sewer, but gushing.



First off, how do you expect Xykon to fail his Will save?


Good point. Change that to Heightened Bestow Curse. And have Vaarsuvius cast Fox's Cunning on him/herself. The Will save is DC 30. Not great against an epic lich, but not terrible, either. Besides, it's cast 50 times! Even if faced with terrible odds, quite a few casts will still get in. And the Order can always make another staff (they probably have the XP to spare, and they could always go on a really short side-quest if not) if they'd rather have it cast 100 times.



Secondly, it won't stack (same source and all that).


Some bonuses from the same source do sometimes stack. And Bestow Curse just specifies a -4 penalty. It doesn't reference the type of bonus, and therefore the effects are cumulative.



Third, how is a reduced Blackwing going to be carrying the staff?


He doesn't have to. When a familiar delivers a touch spell, it acts like a third hand for the spellcaster, not an entirely new spellcaster casting a touch spell. So Vaarsuvius can carry the staff, and Blackwing can cast it.



Finally, even assuming the first three objections were not valid, how is Blackwing going to survive the round immediately after the first attack?


Attack? Do you attack anything that touches you? Xykon probably won't even know anything's happening – if a black diminutive animal touches a baggy, black cloak, it's doubtful you'll notice anything. And if you do, you'll probably dismiss it as an annoying, large horsefly.



Already explained why this won't work. Also, where is Redcloak this entire time?


When Redcloak comes, Vaarsuvius casts Limited Wish five times, each time replicating Empowered Poison delivered through Blackwing. Unless Redcloak has Con 25+, he dies immediately. Bluff to Xykon that he's fine and only sleeping.



Except that Vaarsuvius cannot cast 9th-level spells.


Time Stop, Meteor Swarm, and Wish are all 9th-level. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0049.html)



Not to mention that you can't take 20 on a Dispel check, and a 20 wouldn't be enough for V's current level anyways.


The entire idea behind taking 20 is to repeat something over and over again until you do it correctly, perhaps despite overwhelming odds. This can be done for a spell – after all, if you cast Dispel Magic 20 times (over several days, of course) you will eventually roll a 20.



Since it still has all its buffs, this is unlikely.


Okay, fine, Soul Bind him.



Also, this entire plan fails if the phylactery did not go to the ocean.
[/QUOTE]

Actually, it fails if it has gone to the ocean, because the Order can only get it if it's in the sewers. But there's a two-thirds chance it's still there. Not bad.

I'm just thinking, the Order doesn't actually even have to have the Phylactery, since they're going to Soul Bind Xykon. They can just use Silent Image to replicate it.

[Herald Alberich]

He doesn't have to. When a familiar delivers a touch spell, it acts like a third hand for the spellcaster, not an entirely new spellcaster casting a touch spell. So Vaarsuvius can carry the staff, and Blackwing can cast it.

The familiar has to be in contact with the wizard when he casts the spell, then he can deliver it. He can't just sit on Xykon's shoulder while V casts the spell 50 times somewhere else, he'd have to go back to V every time. Meanwhile, Xykon has shown up and is busy killing them all in order to get his phylactery back. Yeah, that would work.


Time Stop, Meteor Swarm, and Wish are all 9th-level. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0049.html)

Just because they're in his spellbook doesn't mean he can cast them yet; perhaps he copied them down in anticipation of reaching level 17. Anyway, at that point he's closed the book, suggesting he's just naming awesome spells as hyperbole in response to Zz'dtri's continued negative responses.

[DeltaEmil]

Yeah, Vaarsuvius was just pouting cynically at the clone of an intellectual property of Wotc...

Or he got these ultra-rare spells from some random booster packs. :smallsmile:

[Thanatosia]

Ok this might not be practical for the OotS but maybe one of the elven teams could do this. Have an Arcane archer imbue an arrow with an AMF and hit Xykon with that which will cause the AMF to be centered on Xykon making it so he can't move out of it.
Only problem is Imbue Arrow is a supernatural ability.... wich get canceled in an AMZ. Depending on how a GM interprets Imbue Arrow, I would guess this means either,

a) The AMZ just goes off when you cast it centered on the location of the arrow at the time you tried to imbue it,

b) the AMZ goes off when the arrow strikes the target, but does not remain anchored to the arrow because the imbue effect is imediately canceled by the AMZs effect thus allowing the target to move out of the field as normal, or

c) the AMZ immediately self-terminates as its bound to a supernatural effect that it automaticaly cancels.

[spectralphoenix]

Presumably the Order knows that the Phylactery fell into the sewer.


Have Vaarsuvius create a staff containing 50 charges of Telekinesis.
Go to where the sewer meets the ocean.
Have Durkon cast Miracle (or have Vaarsuvius cast Wish) to replicate Wall of Thorns.
Have Vaarsuvius use all the charges in her staff and all her fifth-level spell slots to drain the water from the sewer.
The water will be brought through the Wall of Thorns (presumably it's not water-tight), but the Phylactery will be stopped (presumably it's Phylactery-tight).
Take the Phylactery.


You realize that there's a whole lot more stuff in the sewer besides water and Xykon's phylactery, right? All that evil food has to go somewhere, post-hobgoblin, if you know what I mean. Even assuming you could use 50-odd castings of TK to drain the sewer in the first place, which I doubt. The spell targets a specific object, not just a quantity of water in a stream in object. Additionally, the spell only would affect about 6 cubic feet of water per casting, or around 360 ft^3 for the whole business, which isn't nearly enough to drain much of the sewer. And by this point, the phylactery is probably caught on something or been picked up by some wandering monster.

[Morthis]

How do you know? Durkon of course can't (unless he uses Miracle – I'm not sure if this is enough to create a staff). We only know that Vaarsuvius's barred school is Conjuration. Telekinesis is a Transmutation spell. She may not know Telekinesis, but any major city has an abundance of wizards, many of which she could buy the spell from.

We have never seen either Durkon or V cast a level 9 spell. In fact, I don't think we've even seen level 8 spells from them. Given V's obsession with power pre soul splice, I find it extremely doubtful he would not have cast his highest level spells over a period of ~700 comics.


He doesn't have to. When a familiar delivers a touch spell, it acts like a third hand for the spellcaster, not an entirely new spellcaster casting a touch spell. So Vaarsuvius can carry the staff, and Blackwing can cast it.

As already mentioned above, that won't work.


Deliver Touch Spells (Su)

If the master is 3rd level or higher, a familiar can deliver touch spells for him. If the master and the familiar are in contact at the time the master casts a touch spell, he can designate his familiar as the "toucher." The familiar can then deliver the touch spell just as the master could. As usual, if the master casts another spell before the touch is delivered, the touch spell dissipates.

Emphasis mine.


Attack? Do you attack anything that touches you? Xykon probably won't even know anything's happening – if a black diminutive animal touches a baggy, black cloak, it's doubtful you'll notice anything. And if you do, you'll probably dismiss it as an annoying, large horsefly.

Even if this worked, I would assume that the target is aware he is being affected by spells, especially a target with very high spellcraft.


When Redcloak comes, Vaarsuvius casts Limited Wish five times, each time replicating Empowered Poison delivered through Blackwing. Unless Redcloak has Con 25+, he dies immediately. Bluff to Xykon that he's fine and only sleeping.

He can't cast them empowered. V has necromancy banned, limited wish would only be able to duplicate spells from other classes 4th level or below. An empowered poison would be 5th level. It's also very possible V doesn't have limited wish, and he certainly does not appear to have 5 level 7 spell slots yet.


Time Stop, Meteor Swarm, and Wish are all 9th-level. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0049.html)

And given the situation, it's highly unlikely he actually has any of them. He's just frustrated and naming the most powerful spells he can think of.

Edit: Also, with necromancy banned for V, he can't cast bestow curse so he can't create a wand of it. I don't think he's allowed to use the charges either.

[Kish]

How do you know? Durkon of course can't (unless he uses Miracle –
Your idea hinges on the Order being nearly epic level. They aren't. The highest level spell either Vaarsuvius or Durkon can cast now is seventh.

[Optimystik]

And given the situation, it's highly unlikely he actually has any of them. He's just frustrated and naming the most powerful spells he can think of.

This. Note that he is visibly annoyed at that point and not even looking in the book. He doesn't have any of those spells, he's just trying to get SOME reaction out of Zz'dtri besides "Nope."

[Dark Matter]

Rather than do something complicated... how many Hit Points does Xykon have?

[Optimystik]

Rather than do something complicated... how many Hit Points does Xykon have?

With d12s and at least 27 levels... Anywhere from 27-324 (average 175.)

[Herald Alberich]

But the reason these plans do get complicated very quickly is that besides his not-enormous hit point total, he has a whole host of immunities due to being undead, several more immunities on top of that due to being a lich, and DR against anything that's not both magic and bludgeoning. And to smack him with one of those, you need to get next to him before he burns you down.

Complicated.

[Dark Matter]

With d12s and at least 27 levels... Anywhere from 27-324 (average 175.)In theory... V (14th level) could nail him with two Disintegrates and that'd do it if he blew both (or maybe just one) save.

As an undead, he doesn't have Stamina. Does that mean he auto-fails Fort saves or just that he's got a -5 from a Stamina of zero?

[Asta Kask]

As an undead, he doesn't have Stamina. Does that mean he auto-fails Fort saves or just that he's got a -5 from a Stamina of zero?

You mean Constitution. No, he gets no modifier from Con (and may, if he has the right feat, get his bonus from Charisma*.)

*I think. I may well be wrong.

[Kish]

He's immune to any effect that requires a Fortitude save and doesn't work on objects.

Disintegrate falls in one of those categories (Fortitude save), but not the other one (it does work on objects).

[Optimystik]

As an undead, he doesn't have Stamina. Does that mean he auto-fails Fort saves or just that he's got a -5 from a Stamina of zero?

Neither. Con 0 = -5 Fort save, but he doesn't have Con 0; he has "Con -", which carries Fort +0 rather than -5.

[Deliverance]

To kill Xykon, you need a ten foot pole, a 50 foot rope, two lanterns, eight canisters of oil, three gerbils, a sledgehammer, the detect magic spell, four chainsmoking lefthanded albino orangutans with hardhats, an armoured iguana, a rocket launcher, one rocket for said rocket launcher, and a big-arse truck that says MEEP MEEP as you drive it straight through the fourth wall exploiting a sufficiently large hole in Xykon's plot armour.

Lacking that, you can just as well give up beforehand.

[Herald Alberich]

To kill Xykon, you need a ten foot pole, a 50 foot rope, two lanterns, eight canisters of oil, three gerbils, a sledgehammer, the detect magic spell, four chainsmoking lefthanded albino orangutans with hardhats, an armoured iguana, a rocket launcher, one rocket for said rocket launcher, and a big-arse truck that says MEEP MEEP as you drive it straight through the fourth wall exploiting a sufficiently large hole in Xykon's plot armour.

Lacking that, you can just as well give up beforehand.

What about the potato salad in the giant wooden alpaca (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0389.html)?

[derfenrirwolv]

Couldn't they cast the spell on elan that V cast on belkar to make him intelligent enough to heal elan, which V then foolishly removed?

That spell only adds 4 to intelligence. Elan needs much, much MUCH more than that to function at the competence level expected of a lemming.

[Deliverance]

What about the potato salad in the giant wooden alpaca (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0389.html)?
Damnation, I knew had forgotten something.

The potato salad, yeah, that goes without saying really, only a fool or utter ignoramus would try to kill a lich without having potato salad on hand, but I have forgotten how to mount the giant wooden alpaca on the truck.

[nerd-7i+e]

Okay, since my original plan clearly didn't work, here's a modified version.


Create 70 spell traps of Bestow Curse. This may seem unnecessarily large, but Xykon has a Will save bonus of 17 (this assumes he's 30th level. That's probably not accurate), not counting his Wisdom modifier. If you run through the math, bearing in mind that Bestow Curse gives a penalty on saves, you'll see that Xykon will be hit a total of 45 times, on average. I like to leave some room for bad luck.
Send to Xykon and show him an illusory Phylactery.
Xykon will be hit by the traps, suffering an average of a -180 penalty on skill rolls and will saves.
Bluff Xykon into believing that you've hidden a huge army of epic-level monsters that will kill him unless he does what you request.
Tell Xykon that you'll give him the Phylactery if he gives you a scroll of Soul Bind.
Once you have the scroll, use Hold Monster on him (the massive save penalty he received from Bestow Curse virtually guarantees success).
Coup de Grace him.
Use the scroll to absorb his soul.


Does that work?

[DeltaEmil]

Create 70 spell traps of Bestow Curse. This may seem unnecessarily large, but Xykon has a Will save bonus of 17 (this assumes he's 30th level. That's probably not accurate), not counting his Wisdom modifier. If you run through the math, bearing in mind that Bestow Curse gives a penalty on saves, you'll see that Xykon will be hit a total of 45 times, on average. I like to leave some room for bad luck.He has to enter the area with the spell traps. The spell traps would cost a fortune and lots of xp. And only one bestow curse spell would affect him, as spell effects don't stack from the same spells, or from different sources with the same effect. So the first Bestow Curse that he couldn't make a save against it is the last that would take effect on him, and the others would harmlessly take no effect.

Send to Xykon and show him an illusory Phylactery.
Xykon will be hit by the traps, suffering an average of a -180 penalty on skill rolls and will saves.No, only a maximum of -6 to his rolls. Once. Every other Bestow Curse, even if you try to give the random acting effect, the penalty to ability score or any other effect will not work at all.

Bluff Xykon into believing that you've hidden a huge army of epic-level monsters that will kill him unless he does what you request.If you alrady have an army of epic hidden monsters, you would have used them.

Tell Xykon that you'll give him the Phylactery if he gives you a scroll of Soul Bind.He might not have a scroll handy. And as his penalties are light, he's going to blast the impertinent wizard who tries to bluff him so badly.

Once you have the scroll, use Hold Monster on him (the massive save penalty he received from Bestow Curse virtually guarantees success).Hold Monster is a mind-affecting effect. It does not work on undead.

Does that work?No. Not at all. And the Bestow Curse can of course easily be healed by his pet cleric.

[spectralphoenix]

Also,



Coup de Grace him.


Undead are not subject to crits and can not be coup de grace'd.



Use the scroll to absorb his soul.


Soul Bind does not work on undead.

[Optimystik]

Soul Bind does not work on undead.

Well, the idea there is to use it on his remains after you have destroyed him. But the other failings of this plan make that one success minor.

[spectralphoenix]

Well, the idea there is to use it on his remains after you have destroyed him. But the other failings of this plan make that one success minor.



The subject must have been dead no more than 1 round per caster level.

Xykon's been dead for years (I suppose theoretically if your target had been killed, animated, and redestroyed in less than one round per caster level it could be done, but as a general rule undead cannot be soul bound.)

[DeltaEmil]

Also, in case you're claiming that the penalties from Bestow Curses are untyped, it doesn't matter. It's an effect from the same spells, even if different in effect or untyped, and gives him an effect that specifies them as cursed above all, no matter which other effect takes place.

So, forget any plan you have which rely on mass-cursing. It never works. Neither by RAW, nor RAI, not even Houseruling (either the players or the gm will punch anybody trying this in their face at their gaming table).

[Optimystik]

Xykon's been dead for years (I suppose theoretically if your target had been killed, animated, and redestroyed in less than one round per caster level it could be done, but as a general rule undead cannot be soul bound.)

Perhaps. There's certainly enough wiggle room there. (Especially since the definition of "dead" doesn't really fit Xykon. Hooray D&D writing. :smalltongue:)

[Cealocanth]

Ok, here's the outrageous and totally not going to happen plan:

The party has V cast plain shift to the lower plains.
V asks for more power for a longer period of torture.
Epic v casts plain shift to a sci fi world.
The party uses magic to steal a black hole generator.
Epic V casts plain shift and the party returns next to the Redmountain hills rift.
They generate a black hole inside the rift, either releasing the snarl or crushing everything, therefore, destroying Xykon, and everything else for that matter.:smalltongue:

[nerd-7i+e]

Vaarsuvius creates twenty-five traps of Bestow Curse.
Vaarsuvius goes (probably with Haley and Belkar to help with random encounters) to Azure City.
Vaarsuvius creates a Simulacrum of Redcloak.
The next night, the Simulacrum sneaks into the throne room and sets the doorway as the designation for Word of Recall.
Elan casts Greater Heroism, Glibness, and Eagle's Splendor on himself.
Durkon Sends to Xykon, showing him an illusory phylactery.
If Xykon brings Redcloak:
The moment Redcloak enters the room, Vaarsuvius casts Heightened Mind Fog and then Plane Shifts Redcloak to some random plane through Reduced Blackwing.
The moment Redcloak has been Plane Shifted, the Simulacrum uses Word of Recall to enter the doorway and goes to Xykon as the real Redcloak would.

Vaarsuvius's traps set off. Statistically, one of the traps will go through and hit Xykon, giving him a -4 penalty on skill checks.
Elan Bluffs that there's an army of epic monsters hidden that will attack Xykon unless he does what he tells him to do.
Elan Bluffs that he'll give the illusory phylactery to Xykon if the lich uses an Intensified epic spell on Elan that increases his Charisma by 8d20. (Xykon may not be able to reach a Spellcraft DC that high, in which case he'll have to gain a few levels.)
This spell, in other words, gives Elan a +320 to Charisma, or +160 to Diplomacy, guarantying that Xykon gain the fanatic attitude once Elan uses Diplomacy on him.
With his new powers over Xykon, Elan convinces the lich to cast an epic spell on himself:

It first uses the life seed, turning Xykon into his human form.
It then uses the slay seed, killing Xykon.
It has a Fortitude DC of 35, higher than Xykon can reach unless he has Constitution 18+.



N.B.: I've decided to be pessimistic and assume Xykon is level 30 (I doubt he's higher than that).

[Herald Alberich]

Ok, here's the outrageous and totally not going to happen plan:

The party has V cast plain shift to the lower plains.
V asks for more power for a longer period of torture.
Epic v casts plain shift to a sci fi world.
The party uses magic to steal a black hole generator.
Epic V casts plain shift and the party returns next to the Redmountain hills rift.
They generate a black hole inside the rift, either releasing the snarl or crushing everything, therefore, destroying Xykon, and everything else for that matter.:smalltongue:

Plane Shift is a Conjuration spell, which normal V has barred and can't cast.

Other than that, your plan is totally plausible and would have a high chance of working! [/sarcasm]

[AxeD]

The simplest method to defeat Xykon has already been shown to us! Throw Xykon into the rift!

If the rest of the team can distract Xykon/ give V an opening, all V needs to do is to grab Xykon with Bigby's Grasping Hand and throw him into the rift!

With Xykon's body destroyed, they can go about destroying his soul-hidey-place by dropping it into mt doom. :smallbiggrin:

Bye bye Xykon!

(Thanks to Herald Alberich for pointing out the gate's destructive qualities)

[derfenrirwolv]

quicked truestrike

distintigrate.

Wash, rinse, repeat.

[Herald Alberich]

(Thanks to Herald Alberich for pointing out the gate's destructive qualities)

I was kidding. Speaking seriously (well, more seriously, anyway), it's not the rift or the gate that destroyed Xykon('s body), it was Dorukan's protective rune above said gate. None of the other gates have one of those.

[nerd-7i+e]

Well, the rune did destroy Xykon's body, but even if there wasn't a rune, Xykon would probably be destroyed by the Snarl. (He actually might not be in the case of the Azure City rift, as something weird is clearly going on there.)