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gallagher
2010-03-30, 10:49 AM
So I am right now choosing what soulbound weapon to use as a psychic warrior, and am wondering, is there a better weapon than he greatsword? I am looking to do as much damage as I can, and have taken a couple feats to help with that like greater psionic weapon, power attack, and so forth.

I have one flaw I can take if needed, so I can get exotic weapon prof if I need to. I am looking for good damage with some... I dunno, character? I lie weird weapons, cuz they look cool. Are 3 section staffs any good?

Really any suggestion will be considered, so feel free to comment away!

ericgrau
2010-03-30, 10:53 AM
Falchion does more damage at higher levels, once you include the crits. At lower levels you only lose 1 damage. Ditto for scythes. Glaives, heavy flails, guisarmes, halberds and ranseurs all allow cool abilities like reach, tripping and disarming with only 1-2 less damage than a greatsword. In fact the greatsword is the 3rd worst martial two handed weapon in the Player's Handbook next to greatclub and greataxe. Satisfied? :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: Among exotic weapons spiked chain reach trippiness is well known, but if you want something more unusual I'd get a gnome hooked hammer. I'd use it as a two handed weapon rather than trying to TWF with it. Likewise I'd only enchant one end at high levels. Now you basically have a scythe that can also be used for tripping. You pay another 1.5 base damage, but now you have both crit and tripping goodness.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-03-30, 10:54 AM
So I am right now choosing what soulbound weapon to use as a psychic warrior, and am wondering, is there a better weapon than he greatsword? I am looking to do as much damage as I can, and have taken a couple feats to help with that like greater psionic weapon, power attack, and so forth.

I have one flaw I can take if needed, so I can get exotic weapon prof if I need to. I am looking for good damage with some... I dunno, character? I lie weird weapons, cuz they look cool. Are 3 section staffs any good?

Really any suggestion will be considered, so feel free to comment away!

elven court blade from races of the wild.
all of the races of books have some more interesting weapons.
I always use a faltion for my 2hander weapons mainly cuz i like the way it looks or atleast the way i picture it.(similar to the swords in aladdin)

Critical
2010-03-30, 10:54 AM
Two words. Spiked chain.

Toliudar
2010-03-30, 11:23 AM
I'll argue on behalf of the greatsword: it's much more likely to appear as a found item in campaigns than a more exotic sword, and the magic plot-y goodness of this will often outweigh a minor statistical disadvantage.

DragoonWraith
2010-03-30, 11:33 AM
I'll argue on behalf of the greatsword: it's much more likely to appear as a found item in campaigns than a more exotic sword, and the magic plot-y goodness of this will often outweigh a minor statistical disadvantage.
That's only if you have a DM who refuses to refluff things. Yeah, it might stretch credibility a bit that the amazing martial artifact is a bizarre exotic weapon that the fighter just happens to specialize in - but it's a hell of a lot better than either wasting that specialty or the artifact.

Kylarra
2010-03-30, 11:38 AM
That's only if you have a DM who refuses to refluff things. Yeah, it might stretch credibility a bit that the amazing martial artifact is a bizarre exotic weapon that the fighter just happens to specialize in - but it's a hell of a lot better than either wasting that specialty or the artifact.Nitpicky, that's not really refluffing, more like adjusting the campaign in response to the players. Not that it's a bad thing, but when it has mechanical implications, it's not "merely refluffing".

marjan
2010-03-30, 11:39 AM
EDIT: Among exotic weapons spiked chain reach trippiness is well known, but if you want something more unusual I'd get a gnome hooked hammer. I'd use it as a two handed weapon rather than trying to TWF with it. Likewise I'd only enchant one end at high levels. Now you basically have a scythe that can also be used for tripping. You pay another 1.5 base damage, but now you have both crit and tripping goodness.

Since scythe can be used to make trip attacks, you just spent a feat to reduce your damage.

ericgrau
2010-03-30, 11:41 AM
Oh, didn't notice. Okay, screw the gnomes. And that just put the scythe a notch above the falchion, IMO. Best average damage there is and you get a special attack. Only advantage to the falchion, since average damage is the same, is that it deals decent damage more consistently whereas the scythe gets its average damage from having one spectacular (and possibly overkill) hit every once in a while.

marjan
2010-03-30, 11:44 AM
Oh, didn't notice. Okay, screw the gnomes. And I think that just made the scythe the best two handed martial weapon in the player's handbook. Though reach weapons could also be decent options.

Guisarme is still better: reach, trip and same damage and slightly lower critical multiplier. Though scythe does look better IMO.

Critical
2010-03-30, 11:45 AM
Scythe is best when you can Coup de Grace. You're both stylish and dealing x4 damage! :smallbiggrin:

jiriku
2010-03-30, 11:49 AM
What's wrong with a greatsword? Every time a bell rings, a greatsword gets its winged pommel.

That being said, in Races of Stone you'll find the goliath greathammer and the dwarven warpike. Both deal greatsword damage and have benefits.

Greenish
2010-03-30, 11:49 AM
Falchion does more damage at higher levels, once you include the crits. At lower levels you only lose 1 damage.Average damage on non-crit is 5 for falchion and 7 for greatsword, so are you somehow counting the crits into that?

Keld Denar
2010-03-30, 11:51 AM
A reach weapon will out damage most non-reach weapon due to the fact that you'll often get at least 1 AoO per combat, often more, even without Combat Reflexes. Even one extra hit will do more damage that fight than the extra 1-2 points of base weapon damage you'd gain over a weapon with a larger die size.

EDIT:

Average damage on non-crit is 5 for falchion and 7 for greatsword, so are you somehow counting the crits into that?

Yea, he is. Just like a reach weapon is going to give extra hits, a weapon with an expanded threat range is gonna give extra crits. By the time you factor in things like Str, Enhancement bonus, Power Attack, and any other static bonuses to damage, the extra damage from the crit will more than outway the average 1-2 points of damage from a non-expanded threat weapon.

Statistically speaking.

Eldariel
2010-03-30, 11:51 AM
Average damage on non-crit is 5 for falchion and 7 for greatsword, so are you somehow counting the crits into that?

Once your bonus damage exceeds a certain point, crits make Falchion more profittable. Though at that point, crit immunity becomes more common too (through equipment, types and spells) so it's situational, which is the best.

For my money, reach weapon is hard to beat, for reasons Keld outlined. Reach weapon that trips is, IMHO, the gold standard. And 2dX over 1dX since 2dX deals on average .5 more damage and has more reliable damage dealing capability making for better planning.

Volkov
2010-03-30, 11:53 AM
What's wrong with a greatsword? Every time a bell rings, a greatsword gets its winged pommel.

That being said, in Races of Stone you'll find the goliath greathammer and the dwarven warpike. Both deal greatsword damage and have benefits.

Oh and there is that minotaur hammer in one of the MMs that does d12 x4 damage and threatens on 19-20.

Greenish
2010-03-30, 11:53 AM
Once your bonus damage exceeds a certain point, crits make Falchion more profittable. Though at that point, crit immunity becomes more common too (through equipment, types and spells) so it's questionable, which is the best.Yeah, I was commenting on that "lose 1 damage on lower levels".

arguskos
2010-03-30, 11:55 AM
Oh and there is that minotaur hammer in one of the MMs that does d12 x4 damage and threatens on 19-20.
Greathorn Minotaur Greathammer. MMIV. Deals 1d12, 19-20/x4. However, it was reprinted somewhere and is only x2 now.

Eldariel
2010-03-30, 11:55 AM
Greathorn Minotaur Greathammer. MMIV. Deals 1d12, 19-20/x4. However, it was reprinted somewhere and is only x2 now.

Only x4, no?

reptilecobra13
2010-03-30, 11:56 AM
Get a scythe with one of the "burst" enchantments put on it. I'm currently playing a character who uses a large keen icy-burst scythe. It crits on a 19-20/x4, deals 2d6 damage, and adds 1d6 cold to every hit plus 3d10 additional cold on a successful crit. Plus it can trip. All kinds of goodness there.:smallbiggrin:

arguskos
2010-03-30, 11:57 AM
Only x4, no?
HURPDURPMYTYPING. :smallsigh: Yeah, only x4.

ericgrau
2010-03-30, 12:17 PM
Yeah, I was commenting on that "lose 1 damage on lower levels".

Bingo, crits still add about a point even at lower levels. It's a 5% increase over a greatsword, which averages to about +0.75 even at level 1 for only 1.25 lost at the very beginning. And I don't buy the notion that crit immunity is more common at higher levels. It can happen at all levels, especially with the large number of undead, yet regardless of level most enemies are not immune. See some of the most common high level enemies: dragons, devils, demons, giants, etc., etc. Unless you're in an undead focused or similar campaign. It's a matter of losing 2 damage a small amount of the time and gaining a lot more the rest of the time.


Get a scythe with one of the "burst" enchantments put on it. I'm currently playing a character who uses a large keen icy-burst scythe. It crits on a 19-20/x4, deals 2d6 damage, and adds 1d6 cold to every hit plus 3d10 additional cold on a successful crit. Plus it can trip. All kinds of goodness there.:smallbiggrin:
While crits are a nice easy way to beat greatsword damage, taking them too far is a trap. Bursts are one example of a subpar choice, unless you do a lot of coup de graces. Best to stick to a good crit weapon, a high base damage (strength and so on), and some form of improved critical/scabbard of keen edges/keen edge spell/etc. Keen weapon enchantment isn't worth it until very high levels though.

Yukitsu
2010-03-30, 12:21 PM
I'm going to say great sword, but I'm biased, as my DM gave everything heavy fortification after my stint with a bloodstorm blade with the khaorti resin talenta sharash.

Edit: No wait, khaorti resin ninja-to with the typo.

tcrudisi
2010-03-30, 12:25 PM
Talk me out of using a greatsword

Every time you use a greatsword, a catgirl is born.

It has been rumored that Chuck Norris kills anyone who uses a greatsword. However, since no one alive can claim to have used one, this cannot be verified or disproven.

Conan used a greatsword. If you use one, you'll just be another clone.

Did you hear the joke about the Dagger and the Greatsword?
No?
Well, that's probably because the Dagger didn't appreciate the joke and killed everyone that the Greatsword left alive (which, incidentally, was everyone).

You know what they say about overcompensation when it comes to driving big cars, right? The same is true for greatswords. Don't be That Guy.

Okay, I'm all out of ideas. Hopefully I've talked you out of using a greatsword.

Eldariel
2010-03-30, 12:26 PM
Bingo, crits still add about a point even at lower levels. It's a 5% increase over a greatsword, which averages to about +0.75 even at level 1 for only 1.25 lost at the very beginning. And I don't buy the notion that crit immunity is more common at higher levels. It can happen at all levels, especially with the large number of undead, yet regardless of level most enemies are not immune. See some of the most common high level enemies: dragons, devils, demons, giants, etc., etc. Unless you're in an undead focused or similar campaign. It's a matter of losing 2 damage a small amount of the time and gaining a lot more the rest of the time.

The big change is that on high levels, Fortifications Armor becomes affordable for enemies as does shapechange magic, and out-of-core stuff like Heart of X-line. Also, the truly dangerous intelligent undead (Vampires, Liches, Ghosts, the like) tend to have high enough adjustments to not be issues early on (though tons of non-intelligent undead are, of course, but those tend to be far less of a threat and thus the lost damage isn't as big a factor).


But yeah, the difference on low levels is about 1 point on average (it's worth noting though that Greatsword deals steadier high damage while Falchion is slightly more likely to deal large amounts of damage in one hit; which is more advantageous depends greatly on what types of enemies you're fighting), but Greatsword stays slightly ahead about up until Improved Critical/Keen/Keen Edge comes into play; doubling the crit range obviously benefits a Falchion far more and at such a point, crit range wins out.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-03-30, 12:27 PM
A Kaorti Resin (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031014a) Falchion is an exotic weapon which deals 2d4 base damage, with an 18-20/x4 crit range/multiplier. It will deteriorate over time without a Kaorti maintaining it if it's not at least a +1 magical weapon.

Evard
2010-03-30, 12:31 PM
If it is allowed... Look into Tome of Battle book of nine swords there are some swords in there that get more powerful with the user granting awesome abilities. My favorite is the Kamate (I think that's the spelling) which is a really awesome bastard sword.

Thajocoth
2010-03-30, 12:35 PM
Talk you out of it, eh? Well... the greatsword may be a great sword and all... but they don't call it a bestsword. (Not to be confused with the bastardsword... who I haven't seen since he lost that game of poker, and still owes me 10gp...)

ericgrau
2010-03-30, 12:36 PM
If enemies pay the high price of heavy fortification, you've already won. Spending the money just about anywhere else - including armor AC or other AC items in general - would provide better protection not just against attacks in general but even against crits (simply b/c, like all other attacks, hits and confirmations with the crit weapon are less common). As far as I can tell fortification is best used against sneak attack. Like I said, at all levels there are crit immune but it is uncommon. Even when it does happen you're only down 2 points of damage.

EvilBloodGnome
2010-03-30, 12:53 PM
Protip number one: pick whatever fits the character the best.

Protip number two: If you don't care, look at your character build. Reach weapons are more useful, but scythes and falchions can be bigger damage dealers as per reading the posts above this one. Guisarmes are awesome and so are spiked chains if you want a feat to burn.

Still, I'm one of the guys who advocates protip 1 more than anything. If your duder seems a greatswordy type, go for it.

Lin Bayaseda
2010-03-30, 12:57 PM
Since scythe can be used to make trip attacks, you just spent a feat to reduce your damage.
But, but, but ... the 10' reach! The reach!

marjan
2010-03-30, 01:00 PM
But, but, but ... the 10' reach! The reach!

Which gnome hooked hammer lacks.

Eldariel
2010-03-30, 01:03 PM
If enemies pay the high price of heavy fortification, you've already won. Spending the money just about anywhere else - including armor AC or other AC items in general - would provide better protection not just against attacks in general but even against crits (simply b/c, like all other attacks, hits and confirmations with the crit weapon are less common). As far as I can tell fortification is best used against sneak attack. Like I said, at all levels there are crit immune but it is uncommon. Even when it does happen you're only down 2 points of damage.

Heavy Fortifications (well, Mediums; 75% is quite good and much cheaper) aren't there primarily to stop criticals, stopping criticals is a side-effect of wanting to stop precision damage. The side-effect just decreases criticals' value a bit.

Also, whether their AC suffers at all depends on the amount of magic they have access to; someone casting Magic Vestment might just mean their AC is exactly the same as it'd be with a +5 armor with no abilities. But this is a bit too concrete for such a theoretical discussion.


Point being, Fortifications are a powerful armor enhancement and as such, should be quite commonly used by especially powerful adversaries where you need the crits, which devalues crits from the written value at the point where Fortifications become available.

lord_khaine
2010-03-30, 01:10 PM
I would advocate the use of the greatsword, it does decent reliable damage, and is common enough that you can proberly find some decent ones on your way.

Lin Bayaseda
2010-03-30, 01:14 PM
Which gnome hooked hammer lacks.

Uhm, I was referring to the spiked chain with respect to the reach.

Yukitsu
2010-03-30, 01:21 PM
As an aside, size increases have increased benefit by each categorical increase as you pass 2d6.

AtwasAwamps
2010-03-30, 01:38 PM
As an aside, size increases have increased benefit by each categorical increase as you pass 2d6.

This is important. As a psychic warrior, often one of the most important tools in your arsenal is the Expansion power. Something that has 2d6 starting power goes up to 3d6. That's worth keeping in mind, as you'll want a rapid acceleration of size benefits to have a fairly kickin' weapon early on.

gallagher
2010-03-30, 03:52 PM
This is important. As a psychic warrior, often one of the most important tools in your arsenal is the Expansion power. Something that has 2d6 starting power goes up to 3d6. That's worth keeping in mind, as you'll want a rapid acceleration of size benefits to have a fairly kickin' weapon early on.

And with the helpful addition of strongarm bracers, that puts me up to what... 3d8 or 4d6?

AtwasAwamps
2010-03-30, 03:56 PM
And with the helpful addition of strongarm bracers, that puts me up to what... 3d8 or 4d6?

4d6. And when you can augment psionics to grant you yet another size bonus, you will be Huge + Strongarm bracers = Colossal = 6d6

So yeah. Whee!

gallagher
2010-03-30, 04:06 PM
4d6. And when you can augment psionics to grant you yet another size bonus, you will be Huge + Strongarm bracers = Colossal = 6d6

So yeah. Whee!I thought I can only go up one size category with enlarge? If I get to go up more (and please, tell me how) then I will have to take some grappling feats, or get knockdown or standstill or something

tyckspoon
2010-03-30, 04:10 PM
I thought I can only go up one size category with enlarge? If I get to go up more (and please, tell me how) then I will have to take some grappling feats, or get knockdown or standstill or something

Enlarge Person only goes up one category, yes. Expansion is not Enlarge Person. Suggest more carefully reading your powers list.

gallagher
2010-03-30, 04:44 PM
Enlarge Person only goes up one category, yes. Expansion is not Enlarge Person. Suggest more carefully reading your powers list.
oh goodness oh gracious, i feel like such the fool

well now i know how to get to huge size. that will definitely make me a better fighter!

BIRDMANﺕ
2010-03-30, 04:50 PM
Well overall I would prefer a greatsword. Greatswords are cool for aesthetic purposes, nice damage, martial weapon proficiency is good, also like millions of others have said before its easier to find. However my opinion is kinda biased... since I love the idea of greatswords and was always a fan of the weapon.

HunterOfJello
2010-03-30, 04:54 PM
Mercurial Greatsword > Greatsword

ericgrau
2010-03-30, 04:55 PM
Heavy Fortifications (well, Mediums; 75% is quite good and much cheaper) aren't there primarily to stop criticals, stopping criticals is a side-effect of wanting to stop precision damage. The side-effect just decreases criticals' value a bit.

Also, whether their AC suffers at all depends on the amount of magic they have access to; someone casting Magic Vestment might just mean their AC is exactly the same as it'd be with a +5 armor with no abilities. But this is a bit too concrete for such a theoretical discussion.


Point being, Fortifications are a powerful armor enhancement and as such, should be quite commonly used by especially powerful adversaries where you need the crits, which devalues crits from the written value at the point where Fortifications become available.

Still uncommon in most groups; heck most enemies may not even wear armor. And it's 2 friggin' damage lost in these particular situations, who cares. The thing is, getting enough crit immune and trip immune baddies to make the drawback outweigh the advantage is unlikely. Who cares if it's technically possible, unless the DM says "We'll be running an undead heavy campaign... and they all fly".

And when your weapon is 1/4 or more of your character's total wealth, finding a better one as part of the treasure of one encounter is highly unlikely except at low levels or by DM fiat... in which case you'll find whatever you're carrying anyway. More likely you'll be selling whatever weapons you find to upgrade your main weapon.

Lycanthromancer
2010-03-30, 05:04 PM
oh goodness oh gracious, i feel like such the fool

well now i know how to get to huge size. that will definitely make me a better fighter!You're already a better fighter. You're a psychic warrior.

Do keep in mind that you have a lot of damage boosters, what with awesome powers-n-feats to spend. An extra 3 or 4 damage at level 20 isn't anything to get overly excited about.

However, REACH is something that shouldn't be ignored. Ever. A reach weapon (guisarme) + Deformity (Tall) + Aberrant Reach + expansion + a Large humanoid race (are there any?) will let you cover pretty much the entire battlefield. Just make sure you take Combat Reflexes to get lots of attacks of opportunity. Use them for trip attacks and disarms (it's not like most foes will be able to overcome your size bonuses to those maneuvers anyway).

Rainbownaga
2010-03-30, 05:29 PM
How much damage are you dealing?

The break even point for falchion/greatsword is around 40 damage on a normal hit (remembering there is only a 5% difference in crit chance) so in most cases it really doesn't matter.

Also consider the vorpal enchantment- ZOMG your weapon has infinite average damage! Would you trade that for +5 enchantment (17-18 points of assorted elemental damage) most players would say no.

BIRDMANﺕ
2010-03-30, 05:36 PM
Mercurial Greatsword > Greatsword

True. Very true.

Endarire
2010-03-30, 06:23 PM
Maybe Hood (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872838/Little_Red_Raiding_Hood_A_Tale_of_38_Guide_to_the_ 35_Dragoon) will do it. A polearm's optional, though highly recommended.

herrhauptmann
2010-03-30, 07:43 PM
4d6. And when you can augment psionics to grant you yet another size bonus, you will be Huge + Strongarm bracers = Colossal = 6d6

So yeah. Whee!

Heavy weapons (Magic of Faerun), weapon damage increases one size category.
Colossal+ = 8d6?
But it requires a little bit of extra enchantment on your weapon, or a feat to use it properly. Also cannot be finessed.
And now that your weapon is all blinged up with gold or platinum you're the target of every thief with get rich quick schemes.

Tytalus
2010-03-30, 08:20 PM
Falchion does more damage at higher levels, once you include the crits. At lower levels you only lose 1 damage. Ditto for scythes.

You loose 2 damage, not 1. And the extra damage from criticals is very low in comparison:

Assuming you have a 50% chance to hit an opponent and you have X extra damage, then the greatsword deals (on average)

0.45 * (7 + X) # normal damage plus non-confirmed threat
+ 0.05 * (7 + X) * 2 # critical threat confirmed

= 3.85 + 0.55 * X

A falchion does:

0.425 * (5 + X) # normal damage plus non-confirmed threats
+ 0.075 * (5 + X) * 2 # critical threat confirmed

= 2.875 + 0.575 * X

Solving for X yields 39. That means that unless you have that much extra damage (from strength, weapon enhancement bonus, and other crit-multiplyable damage), the greatsword is strictly better on average. That's a huge number and requires some serious optimization.

With improved critical (on both sides), it looks much better for the falchion, but not great. You still need a damage bonus of +19 (crit-multiplyable damage only!) to do better than the greatsword. It's doable, but not trivial/easy, even at higher levels. It certainly isn't as clear-cut as you put it.


Greathorn Minotaur Greathammer. MMIV. Deals 1d12, 19-20/x4. However, it was reprinted somewhere and is only x2 now.

The hammer has not been reprinted anywhere. It's still 19-20/x4 in the weapon description and 20/x4 in the creature's stat block, which seems to imply (along with the way weapons work in 3.5) that the 19-20/x4 is a typo.

Knaight
2010-03-30, 08:57 PM
How much damage are you dealing?

The break even point for falchion/greatsword is around 40 damage on a normal hit (remembering there is only a 5% difference in crit chance) so in most cases it really doesn't matter.

Also consider the vorpal enchantment- ZOMG your weapon has infinite average damage! Would you trade that for +5 enchantment (17-18 points of assorted elemental damage) most players would say no.

A) 40 damage is small potatoes, we are talking level 9-12 in most cases. And this ignores keen or improved critical, which drops it to 20. Of course, in many cases the crit damage is wasted anyways.

B) The Vorpal enchantment can be calculated with damage equal to (Average Total Remaining HP+10). Assuming an equal chance of being at any hit point above -1, because at that point its Coup De Gras territory, you can figure out average hit points per level by assuming half hit points on each person, adding them up, with 0 for undead or golems, then dividing by the total number of critters. Its really not that impressive overall.

Draz74
2010-03-30, 09:07 PM
Solving for X yields 39. That means that unless you have that much extra damage (from strength, weapon enhancement bonus, and other crit-multiplyable damage), the greatsword is strictly better on average. That's a huge number and requires some serious optimization.

With improved critical (on both sides), it looks much better for the falchion, but not great. You still need a damage bonus of +19 (crit-multiplyable damage only!) to do better than the greatsword. It's doable, but not trivial/easy, even at higher levels.

I don't think those damage bonuses are as hard as you think, at least if out-of-Core material is included. Craven, alone, makes the latter damage bonus trivial at high levels.

Power Attacking counts too.

Thurbane
2010-03-30, 09:21 PM
Greathorn Minotaur Greathammer. MMIV. Deals 1d12, 19-20/x4. However, it was reprinted somewhere and is only x2 now.
Are you sure it was reprinted? The only other greathammer I know of is the Goliath Greathammer in RoS, and that came before MMIV.

Skaven
2010-03-31, 12:20 AM
In fact the greatsword is the 3rd worst martial two handed weapon in the Player's Handbook next to greatclub and greataxe. Satisfied? :smallbiggrin

How so? I've always found it to be a pretty solid weapon. Dual dice to create a bell curve of damage, 19-20 crit range, decent hardness, don't need to burn a feat to use it proficiently. What exactly about it makes it bad?

arguskos
2010-03-31, 12:26 AM
Are you sure it was reprinted? The only other greathammer I know of is the Goliath Greathammer in RoS, and that came before MMIV.
I am like 95% certain it was, but I'm unsure of the source. I know because Sstoopidtallkid bitched about it constantly when we gamed together (until I moved out of that state), and that dude knows his stuff.

SethFahad
2010-03-31, 12:43 AM
I am like 95% certain it was, but I'm unsure of the source. I know because Sstoopidtallkid bitched about it constantly when we gamed together (until I moved out of that state), and that dude knows his stuff.

I can't seem to find any errata about this one... Not even a clue in Dragon Magazine...
Perhaps you've mistaken it with Sharrash Talenta from ECS.
2-Handed Exotic (1d10 19-20/x4 -> errata: 1d10 19-20/x2)

The Rabbler
2010-03-31, 12:50 AM
or you could use a large bastard sword. get exotic wep prof (bastard sword) and use a large one in two hands. you now have a fullblade sized to medium, doing 2d8, with 19-20/x2. make it kaorti resin and get improved critical and you're looking at 2d8, 17-20/x4. get sizing on it with strongarm bracers and as many size catagories as you want from expansion to make the damage scale 2d6 damage better (by.. huge i think?) than a base 2d6 weapon does.

The Rabbler
2010-03-31, 12:58 AM
How so? I've always found it to be a pretty solid weapon. Dual dice to create a bell curve of damage, 19-20 crit range, decent hardness, don't need to burn a feat to use it proficiently. What exactly about it makes it bad?

what makes it bad is it's averageness. the other weapons you can use either offer you bonuses to alternative attack options (tripping, disarming, etc), do better average damage, or give you reach(which is god).

or, the weapons cost a feat and are therefore simply better.

Personally, I think the greatsword is a fine item and that unless you build your character around a specific weapon(tripper builds, disarming builds, uber reach builds, etc), the greatsword will fill any 2-handed weapon need you can have without any important drawbacks. that being said, I usually pick the large bastard sword; It just sounds bigger and badder.

SethFahad
2010-03-31, 01:25 AM
or you could use a large bastard sword.
A "Large" Bastard sword? Why? I say take a Large Greatsword. Or even better: take a Large Great Falchion (Sandstorm) make it keen, kaorti and crit 1 per 2 hits!!! (3d6 dmg) [or, instead of kaorti, use Abyssal Bloodiron to crit 25% of hits but with extra +4 to confirm]


get exotic wep prof (bastard sword) and use a large one in two hands.

Just...buy the bracers. Feats are to much expensive to spend them like this.

Admiral Squish
2010-03-31, 01:32 AM
My favorite melee weapon, personally, is a goliath greathammer. Greatsword damage, but a x4 critical and +2 to sunder attack rolls. I love the flavor of it, too, nothing beats a giant hammer with a head the size of a bread loaf.

The Rabbler
2010-03-31, 01:39 AM
A "Large" Bastard sword? Why? I say take a Large Greatsword. Or even better: take a Large Great Falchion (Sandstorm) make it keen, kaorti and crit 1 per 2 hits!!! (3d6 dmg) [or, instead of kaorti, use Abyssal Bloodiron to crit 25% of hits but with extra +4 to confirm]



Just...buy the bracers. Feats are to much expensive to spend them like this.

you take a "Large" Bastard Sword so that it will be treated as a medium fullblade weapon when wielded in two hands, THEN start making it bigger with your strongarm bracers and extra size catagories. I can explain this further if I need to.

besides, the great falchion requires exotic weapon proficiency also.

EDIT: forgot to mention that this way, though tricky, is only used to get you a fullblade (because they were changed to size catagory huge in some book) you do less damage overall because what's being increased is base damage while the great falchion would give you a 10% higher crit chance. I still think this is worthwhile because the difference in damage isn't all that much endgame, you are penalized less by stuff like fort or crit immunity, and this weapon just sounds less cheesy.

sure it's still a giant weapon that deals tons of damage, but a higher crit chance makes a weapon seem super powerful to other players and DMs.

SethFahad
2010-03-31, 02:03 AM
you take a "Large" Bastard Sword so that it will be treated as a medium fullblade weapon when wielded in two hands, THEN start making it bigger with your strongarm bracers and extra size catagories. I can explain this further if I need to.


please, continue... although I must remind you that bastard swords are hand-and-a half swords. You can't wield a Large bastard sword as a 2-handed even if you have exot weap. prof. because it's not one-handed weapon....
Strongarm bracers allow you to wield Large weapon as if you were large yourself. In that case you may wield a Large bastard sword with one hand if you have exotic prof.
Maybe you are using 3.0 edition rules.

Enguhl
2010-03-31, 03:42 AM
I don't see lance anywhere in here :(
Seriously, a lance with spirited charge, add in some power attack goodness, that triple damage feels so good to roll...

Eldariel
2010-03-31, 05:09 AM
please, continue... although I must remind you that bastard swords are hand-and-a half swords. You can't wield a Large bastard sword as a 2-handed even if you have exot weap. prof. because it's not one-handed weapon....
Strongarm bracers allow you to wield Large weapon as if you were large yourself. In that case you may wield a Large bastard sword with one hand if you have exotic prof.
Maybe you are using 3.0 edition rules.

It's a weapon that specifically allows it. It's not really spelled out to be a Large Bastard Sword, that's just what stats it has. Well, that and its moniker "Ogre's Bastard Sword". It's from A&EG and has 2d8 damage when wielded by a Medium character (at no penalties).

Kaiyanwang
2010-03-31, 05:23 AM
It's a weapon that specifically allows it. It's not really spelled out to be a Large Bastard Sword, that's just what stats it has. Well, that and its moniker "Ogre's Bastard Sword". It's from A&EG and has 2d8 damage when wielded by a Medium character (at no penalties).

Barring the fact that it's a good start if your players ask you "A sword like this!" pointing at an issue of Berserk

Taelas
2010-03-31, 05:27 AM
I'm sorry, Eldariel, are you talking about a fullblade? They're called "ogre's greatsword", not "bastard sword". (I have no idea why; the way it is described is basically like a Large-sized bastard sword, with the caveat that Medium characters can use it as a two-handed weapon with the Exotic Weapon (Fullblade) feat).

Unless I'm mistaken, A&EG was 3.0 -- it has different weapon sizing rules.

Anyway, I side with going with a Mercurial Greatsword.

Greenish
2010-03-31, 06:16 AM
please, continue... although I must remind you that bastard swords are hand-and-a half swords. You can't wield a Large bastard sword as a 2-handed even if you have exot weap. prof. because it's not one-handed weapon....Bastard Sword is an exotic one handed weapon.

Coidzor
2010-03-31, 06:44 AM
please, continue... although I must remind you that bastard swords are hand-and-a half swords. You can't wield a Large bastard sword as a 2-handed even if you have exot weap. prof. because it's not one-handed weapon....Bastard Sword is an exotic one handed weapon.

I think he's referring to this bit.

Inappropriately Sized Weapons
...
The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder’s size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. If a weapon’s designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can’t wield the weapon at all.

The idea being that if one has exotic weapon proficiency, then its one-handedness gets bumped up to two-handedness but if one attempts to wield it as a two-handed weapon, then it is incapable of being wielded, since as a martial weapon it's a two-hander which means with a size-increase, it's no longer capable of being wielded. A bit... confuzzled of an idea/statement.

Greenish
2010-03-31, 06:51 AM
I think he's referring to this bit.Well, that just proves the idea works: it's one handed weapon, thus an increased size would make it two handed.

The Vorpal Tribble
2010-03-31, 06:54 AM
*rolls nat 20*

Don't use it.

Coidzor
2010-03-31, 07:50 AM
An executioner's mace has the same damage dice, but is capable of doing either Bludgeoning and Piercing Damage or Bludgeoning and Slashing damage for purposes of always being able to get around that class of DR with one's main weapon.

And is a martial, two handed weapon. Has a x3 crit.

Greenish
2010-03-31, 08:01 AM
An executioner's mace has the same damage dice, but is capable of doing either Bludgeoning and Piercing Damage or Bludgeoning and Slashing damage for purposes of always being able to get around that class of DR with one's main weapon.

And is a martial, two handed weapon. Has a x3 crit.Same damage dice as what?

I doubt it has 2d8, like, say, Large bastard sword.

[Edit]: Though, Jovar (Planar Handbook) with 2d6 damage and 18-20/x2 would probably be better than the large bastard sword for the same reasons Falchion is better than Greatsword.

Coidzor
2010-03-31, 08:04 AM
Same damage dice as what?

I doubt it has 2d8, like, say, Large bastard sword.

Was getting back to the original topic.

gallagher
2010-03-31, 10:18 AM
*rolls nat 20*

Don't use it.
this is a very convincing statement...

btw, where does one find kaorti resin?

Coidzor
2010-03-31, 10:30 AM
this is a very convincing statement...

btw, where does one find kaorti resin?

Fiendish Codex ...II, I believe. And a web enhancement also contains it. Or at least FC:II is where they're from and the web enhancement has it online and may or may not be the source of kaorti resin. Think the resin is in both.

Can't remember the link for the WE though.

Taelas
2010-03-31, 10:36 AM
Fiendish Codex ...II, I believe. And a web enhancement also contains it. Or at least FC:II is where they're from and the web enhancement has it online and may or may not be the source of kaorti resin. Think the resin is in both.

Can't remember the link for the WE though.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031014a

graymachine
2010-03-31, 10:53 AM
I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Jovar out of either the Manual of the Planes or the Planar Handbook. It is a greatsword with a decreased damage die against small creatures and an improved crit range of 18-20. Keen or with an Improve Crit feat that becomes a 15-20, well worth the Exotic Weapon Proficiency. I suppose it would have to be approved by the GM though.

gallagher
2010-03-31, 10:55 AM
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031014a

so i need to take EWP to be able to have a resined weapon in the first place... so if i am going to grab one why dont i just get a great falchion so that i have the increased damage more often?

jpreem
2010-03-31, 11:02 AM
Most damage dont come from weapon but from "add-ons" +attribute ( str being the most common without feats or class abilities), power attack, precision damage, enchancements etc.
So what I am looking in a weapon are the sepcial abilities - reach, ability to make trip attempts, finessability etc,
The best melee weapon in core is spiked chain.
But well its so good its almost silly so I tend to "nerf" myself to something else plenty of times.
Also might i say - its not the weapon- its the user. :P
So pick up whatever ypu want, for whatever reason you want - be it fluff or crunch.
I have always thought that greatswords, clubs and axes are really nice fluff wise if you are going for this ME BIG GUY HIT STUFF WITH BIG <insert weapon name here> :smallbiggrin:

Greenish
2010-03-31, 11:13 AM
so i need to take EWP to be able to have a resined weapon in the first place... so if i am going to grab one why dont i just get a great falchion so that i have the increased damage more often?Because Great Falchion requires a separate EWP.

Taelas
2010-03-31, 11:20 AM
It does not state that you have to be proficient with the base weapon first. A single Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat is enough.

Eldariel
2010-03-31, 01:03 PM
I'm sorry, Eldariel, are you talking about a fullblade? They're called "ogre's greatsword", not "bastard sword". (I have no idea why; the way it is described is basically like a Large-sized bastard sword, with the caveat that Medium characters can use it as a two-handed weapon with the Exotic Weapon (Fullblade) feat).

Unless I'm mistaken, A&EG was 3.0 -- it has different weapon sizing rules.

Oh, Greatsword, yeah. Well, it's just a moniker; doesn't need to be accurate. And yes, 3.0 sizing rules are different, but it's still unupdated 3.0 material; thus you can use it as a medium weapon without penalties with EWP in 3.5. Also, the way it's written doesn't really differ from how it'd be written in 3.5; it's just listed as a Large weapon, but it's an exception that can be used without penalties.


Anyway, I side with going with a Mercurial Greatsword.

Bleh, Kaorti Resin Falchion rips that a new one. 2d6 x4 or 2d4 18-20/x4 for the same feat cost? Easy choice.

Taelas
2010-03-31, 01:09 PM
True, the Kaorti Resin Falchion vastly outperforms the Mercurial Greatsword -- however, it is also vastly more difficult to acquire.

Lycanthromancer
2010-03-31, 03:44 PM
But well its so good its almost silly so I tend to "nerf" myself to something else plenty of times.You're kidding, right? That's the only weapon in core that's actually worth a feat outside of the kusari-gama.

There's no way in the Abyss I'd spend a feat on proficiency with nunchucks or a kama. Hell, some simple weapons are better than the rest of the exotic ones.

gallagher
2010-03-31, 03:56 PM
It does not state that you have to be proficient with the base weapon first. A single Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat is enough.

Good, that is the response I was hoping for.
Btw, can I make my soulbound weapon resinned? Can I apply crystals to modify it? Can I use the enhancements I get from levels to instead do energy damage or somethign of the like?

gallagher
2010-03-31, 03:57 PM
You're kidding, right? That's the only weapon in core that's actually worth a feat outside of the kusari-gama.

There's no way in the Abyss I'd spend a feat on proficiency with nunchucks or a kama. Hell, some simple weapons are better than the rest of the exotic ones.

Depending on the build I would go for a net

Dr.Epic
2010-03-31, 04:01 PM
I am looking to do as much damage as I can

I'd suggest monkey grip to up the damage size category with any weapon.

I once had a dwarf that took that feat and wielded a large Goliath Greathammer. 3d6 points of damage and crit modifier x4.

JaronK
2010-03-31, 04:03 PM
I'd suggest monkey grip to up the damage size category with any weapon.

At the cost of a feat and -2 to hit... or you could just get Strongarm Bracers and do the same thing (without those costs) for about 4kgp. I know which one I'd prefer.

JaronK

Last Laugh
2010-03-31, 04:10 PM
I'd suggest monkey grip to up the damage size category with any weapon.

I once had a dwarf that took that feat and wielded a large Goliath Greathammer. 3d6 points of damage and crit modifier x4.

And of course you had the party sorc cast Greater Mighty Wallop?
OR be even cooler and use Strongarm Bracers+Greater Mighty Wallop+morning star+wings+keen edge?
(8d8*2?)
Greater mighty wallop is a wonderful spell from RotD that increases a bludgeoning weapons size category based on Caster Level,

Coidzor
2010-03-31, 04:19 PM
Depending on the build I would go for a net

Lassos give the same thing, only without the 1/2 move speed penalty and they have a range increment of 10 feet rather than a max range of 10 feet. Don't know if they're worth spending an EWP on, since they're touch attacks and the -4 nonproficiency doesn't really hurt them much on what they'll be used on which is mostly humanoids.

Or at least I've been tempted to take a couple along despite the nonproficiency pentalties for both. Seems like the sort of thing a cleric can use to help debuff at lower levels when spells aren't as freeflowing. Which, since they're not for bruisers and such, is mostly when one would be using them, other than as attempts to manage a really agile character, since at middling-high levels, casters and offensive martial-types will have the stuff in place to either just break 'em or negate them (or even just using abrupt jaunt variant wizzies).

Darrin
2010-03-31, 04:24 PM
Lassos give the same thing, only without the 1/2 move speed penalty and they have a range increment of 10 feet rather than a max range of 10 feet. Don't know if they're worth spending an EWP on, since they're touch attacks and the -4 nonproficiency doesn't really hurt them much on what they'll be used on which is mostly humanoids.


Lassos also don't have a size restriction. Ask your DM if he'll allow entangle effects (or rather, the -4 Dex penalty) from different sources to stack. If so, Lasso + Net + Tanglefoot Bag can immobilize a very large number of nasties, including most Dragons and the Tarrasque.

The Rabbler
2010-03-31, 05:48 PM
with my idea for a weapon, I was assuming that exotic weapon proficiency would effectively make a bastard sword into a one-handed sword. therefore, you could use a large version of the weapon with two hands, similarly to using a large longsword (aka greatsword). I suppose it would need to be Okay'd by a DM because it's based off of an interpretation of RAI, but I think it's a pretty fair trade: a feat for a better-scaling weapon.

and if this is veto'd, you could just use the updated fullblade (effectively makes it so that you can't TWF them without massive size catagories; i forget the book (maybe sword and fist?))

regardless, the exotic weapons will be better than greatswords (even if in only hitting power) because they require a feat to use. that was the idea behind EWP: that you could get a better weapon than the standard greatsword, but it would cost you.

gallagher
2010-03-31, 08:09 PM
i think i am going with the Jovar, and i made a new thread with the entirety of the character in it, if anyone wants to check out that thread. here (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=196143)is my character sheet so far, and this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=147434)is the new thread

thanks for all the help!

SethFahad
2010-03-31, 10:59 PM
It's a weapon that specifically allows it. It's not really spelled out to be a Large Bastard Sword, that's just what stats it has. Well, that and its moniker "Ogre's Bastard Sword". It's from A&EG and has 2d8 damage when wielded by a Medium character (at no penalties).


Bastard Sword is an exotic one handed weapon.

Nope. Wrong.

From FAQ


The bastard sword, lance, and dwarven waraxe are all twohanded weapons that can be used in one hand under the correct circumstances (the bastard sword and dwarven waraxe are shown on Table 7–5 as one-handed exotic weapons, but they’re really two-handed weapons). Treat all three of these weapons as two-handed weapons when determining who can use them and how. For example, a Small character cannot use a lance or bastard sword made for a Medium creature, even when mounted (in the case of a lance) or when the Small character has the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword) feat.

PH 121

Sword, Bastard: bastard swords are also known as hand-and-ahalf swords. A bastard sword is too large to use in one hand without special training; thus, it is an exotic weapon. A character can use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weapon.

Mind the coloring. Normal use is 2-handed, special use is with EWP as 1-handed.

Plus, A&EG follows 3.0 rules.

Eldariel
2010-03-31, 11:01 PM
You are both wrong.

From FAQ

Plus, A&EG follows 3.0 rules.

What are you talking about? That has nothing to do with the Fullblade.

SethFahad
2010-03-31, 11:15 PM
What are you talking about? That has nothing to do with the Fullblade.

You quoted my answer and said :

It's a weapon that specifically allows it. It's not really spelled out to be a Large Bastard Sword, that's just what stats it has. Well, that and its moniker "Ogre's Bastard Sword". It's from A&EG and has 2d8 damage when wielded by a Medium character (at no penalties).

I was talking with The Rabbler about Bastardswords, not Fullblades.
So, I figured you were talking about b-swords too.

Eldariel
2010-03-31, 11:20 PM
I was talking with The Rabbler about Bastardswords, not Fullblades.
So, I figured you were talking about b-swords too.

You were talking about Large Bastard Swords, so I figured you were talking about Fullblade. Meh.

SethFahad
2010-03-31, 11:35 PM
No prob. :smallsmile:

The Rabbler
2010-03-31, 11:39 PM
I guess I was wrong about bastard swords. my bad. I'm sorry that it escalated so far. a fullblade still works to the same effect and the reason I didn't post one immediately was because I couldn't remember the mechanics behind the updated fullblade. anyway the point is moot now that the OP has chosen the jovar.

jpreem
2010-04-01, 02:37 AM
You're kidding, right? That's the only weapon in core that's actually worth a feat outside of the kusari-gama.

There's no way in the Abyss I'd spend a feat on proficiency with nunchucks or a kama. Hell, some simple weapons are better than the rest of the exotic ones.

NonNo not talking about ewp in this part if i dont get my spiked chain, then this feat goes to something else, and ill grab a martial or simple weapon depending on my class and whatnot.

Coidzor
2010-04-01, 02:41 AM
Where are the mechanics of the updated fullblade, anyway?

Kaiyanwang
2010-04-01, 03:28 AM
There is none.. but you can simply make it work as is.

2d8, 2H, EWP. It's esotic because is "2H and an half" (or, to better say, you pay the feat to increase the damage).

Eldariel
2010-04-01, 03:57 AM
There is none.. but you can simply make it work as is.

2d8, 2H, EWP. It's esotic because is "2H and an half" (or, to better say, you pay the feat to increase the damage).

Which is exactly how the 3.0-version works; it's perfectly usable unupdated.

paddyfool
2010-04-01, 04:00 AM
And of course you had the party sorc cast Greater Mighty Wallop?
OR be even cooler and use Strongarm Bracers+Greater Mighty Wallop+morning star+wings+keen edge?
(8d8*2?)
Greater mighty wallop is a wonderful spell from RotD that increases a bludgeoning weapons size category based on Caster Level,

Or be a (half-giant or goliath) psy-warrior who uses a Goliath Greathammer, makes full use of the Expansion power, wears strongarm bracers and asks the friendly party sorc for GMW, purely in the interests of a Really Big Hammer [TM]? If you get enough AoOs with that thing, you'd turn D&D into a session of that hamster-bashing game...

Incidentally, GMW doesn't stack with Shillelagh, right? Because if it did, you could do really silly things with a quarterstaff...

Greenish
2010-04-01, 04:06 AM
Mind the coloring. Normal use is 2-handed, special use is with EWP as 1-handed.I wasn't aware of the FAQ. Oh well, no real loss.

Kaiyanwang
2010-04-01, 04:09 AM
Which is exactly how the 3.0-version works; it's perfectly usable unupdated.

Yes, that was my point.

It works without effort and it's cool, and it's useful for many character concepts players ask for.