The Cube?

[shadow_archmagi]

I seem to recall seeing some kind of nigh-indestructible build called The Cube around here.

I forget everything else about it though.

[Mushroom Ninja]

I seem to recall seeing some kind of nigh-indestructible build called The Cube around here.

I forget everything else about it though.

Seek ye sofawall.

[Arakune]

It involves stronghold builder (or something) material.

It isn't invencible, it just need a very specific build/tactics in order to beat it. Your general adventuring party probably doesn't have it.

[tyckspoon]

Build a room. Forbid and/or Dimensional Lock the inside to prevent teleportation and other planar travel shenanigans. Now layer a Prismatic Wall onto the outside wall, and then a Wall of Force, and then a wall of the hardest material you can find (for SRD reference, Magically Treated Adamantine would be Hardness 40, which is pretty good. At a minimum you want something that can't be ripped up by any old yahoo with an adamantine weapon.) That's the basic structure, which was known as The Box during its participation as the target of a challenge thread not too long ago. You can layer those walls a few more times if you want to make it really unpleasant to get into; it's relatively unlikely that anybody will normally carry the resources needed to break 3 Walls of Force, 3 layers of Hardness 40+ HP 60+ metal, and disassemble or Disjunct 3 Prismatic Walls.

It transitions into the Cube (ref. Borg Cube; also ref. "That's not a moon!") when you make it mobile and arm it. Build self-targetting, resetting traps on the outside surface, or just write a zillion Explosive Runes on it and drive it into your enemies.

[Frosty]

Cost: not worth it.

[arguskos]

Cost: not worth it.
Landlord feat, mitigates it a great deal.

Also, uh, you have an indestructible cage from hell that you (a caster most likely) gets to tool around in and just punk dudes with. Sounds awesome to me. I'd totally go for it.

Note: the Cube is likely to get you hit with a dictionary by your DM. Use caution and common sense. :smallwink:

[sofawall]

The Cube? That was me.


Prismatic Wall
Wall of Force
Magically Hardened Obdurium
Lead
Dirt
Me


It can move. As it still a build in progress, I will say little, other than the bare-bones version is available at level 9 and effectively free at level 12ish (AFB).

The current build is immune to almost any targeted spell (even without the walls), and any non-targeted spell near it is eaten by it. It is also much more expensive, although still within a level 13 budget, for ToS (the arena that it was created for) The biggest weakness, MDJ, has been defeated.

No, I will not tell how.

Amusing anecdote time! I originally made it because I was asked to make a build for the arena, but I didn't want something all complicated and junk. So I just decided to ignore class, race and skills, and only one feat was taken. Everything else was chosen by dice. It eventually was changed to commoner, just to say I won with a commoner. Signmaker is the only competitor to (sort-of) defeat it in the ToS, mainly because she just ran away until I died of old age (we ruled it a tie). I am now immune to that. Also, I have not faced PhoenixRiver's Fluffy build, the other Tier 0.5 (by the ToS tier system).

EDIT: I forgot! Doc Roc also helped me with many things, one of those being immunity to MDJ. Also, one-way LoE/LoS.

EDIT2: Most efficient way to kill things is simply ramming them with Prismatic Walls. As the SBG has nothing to say about what DC the Wall is, I always assumed minimum. Side note, the SBG is a really poorly edited book. Making a tornado is cheaper than making a windstorm. Actually, assuming my memory is correct, you cannot make a windstorm, as the item to do that says tornado instead.

[Arakune]

You guys are sick, sick people.

I love this place :smallbiggrin:

[sofawall]

Wait, does that mean I'm famous now? Someone just asked about one of my builds on the forums by name. :smallcool:

[Abd al-Azrad]

Wait, does that mean I'm famous now? Someone just asked about one of my builds on the forums by name. :smallcool:

We all dream of your success, sofawall.

[arguskos]

We all dream of your success, sofawall.
I dream of killing sofawall and absorbing his powers, combining with my own to make Mecha-Sofakos. :smalltongue:

I have odd dreams, it seems.

[Temotei]

I dream of killing sofawall and absorbing his powers, combining with my own to make Mecha-Sofakos. :smalltongue:

I have odd dreams, it seems.

I can't wait to have that one!

[Innis Cabal]

I dream of killing sofawall and absorbing his powers, combining with my own to make Mecha-Sofakos. :smalltongue:

I have odd dreams, it seems.

The moment you can build it. It shall be a reality.

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

Wait, does that mean I'm famous now? Someone just asked about one of my builds on the forums by name. :smallcool:T_G isn't famous. Very few understand half his stuff to remember it :)

I know the feeling.

[arguskos]

The moment you can build it. It shall be a reality.
Well yes, that's the idea. However, I'd need a sofawall, and well, I think he has an emotional connection to his internal organs being internal. :smallwink:

[Temotei]

Well yes, that's the idea. However, I'd need a sofawall, and well, I think he has an emotional connection to his internal organs being internal. :smallwink:

I think that will go away with...time. Yeah...time. :smallamused:

[Lysander]

How do you make it move? Aren't prismatic/force walls and dimensional lock/forbid stationary only?

Also, I assume the creator is inside the box?

Just to check the order of walls from outside in are prismatic, force, adamantium? Why can't you disjunct, disintegrate, disntegrate?

[Eurus]

Apparently there's some kind of protection from disjunction in place, heck if I know what. Some way to make the prismatic walls supernatural, maybe?

[Evard]

How do you make it move? Aren't prismatic/force walls and dimensional lock/forbid stationary only?

Also, I assume the creator is inside the box?

Just to check the order of walls from outside in are prismatic, force, adamantium? Why can't you disjunct, disintegrate, disntegrate?

could the caster who is inside use mage's magnificent mansion or whatever that spell is while inside?

[Lysander]

Apparently there's some kind of protection from disjunction in place, heck if I know what. Some way to make the prismatic walls supernatural, maybe?

Supernatural effects are immune to dispelling but not disjunction. Everything magical is vulnerable to disjunction.

Besides, where the heck do you get a supernatural prismatic wall from?

[arguskos]

Supernatural effects are immune to dispelling but not disjunction. Everything magical is vulnerable to disjunction.

Besides, where the heck do you get a supernatural prismatic wall from?
There are obviously ways to prevent the walls from being disjoined, since sofa's done it.

Honestly, I do want to see this superior Cube, but I doubt we'll get to anytime soon. It IS sofa's big secret.

[Lysander]

Does anyone have a link to the thread where it was made? I'm curious to see what contraption of feats pulled it off.

Also, I want to make sure it can stand up to the Lightsaber, the RAW-legal +5 magic sword I made that casts disjunction and disintegrate each time it hits anything and can cut through any magic or mudane material. I used a chain of feats to bring the price down to under 1,000gp too. Can't tell you how of course. That's secret.

[sofawall]

Well, it was made in the ToS chatroom (link in Doc Roc's sig). If you google Soft Gooey Center on this site, it should lead you to The Box, which was the early attempts to figure out what I was vulnerable to. I then proceeded to use that data to eliminate some things I hadn't thought of, and some I did. It also confirmed my suspicions that MDJ was a really effective tool against it.


T_G isn't famous. Very few understand half his stuff to remember it :)

I know the feeling.

I actually know both of you, and though I don't know much of your work (only the early-entry handbook and your superdragonmount), I have seen you on 339. T_G, on the other, hand, I remember because I've gamed with him a few times.

Also, a quick google of my name shows some rather embarrassing posts from around the internet. Man, I was a noob back then.

EDIT: The build uses 1 feat and a large amount of gold. A commoner can do it roughly as effectively as a wizard. It effectively proves how powerful WBL is compared to other class features. As if VoP didn't have enough against it...


EDIT: For the record, at least one other person can verify that the Advanced Cube is RAW legal, and quite a few posters (Aethernox, Thelas, Signmaker, Doc Roc) can verify the simpler Box is legal. The MDJ immunity is based around absurd amounts of Dispelling screens basically. 1-way LoE through the Cube helps too, of course.

[JeminiZero]

Supernatural effects are immune to dispelling but not disjunction. Everything magical is vulnerable to disjunction.


Actually, disjunction (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Mage's_Disjunction) only specifies that it ends spells and spell like abilities (and magic items). It also states that it removes these as if they were affected by Dispel Magic, which Supernatural Abilities (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Supernatural_Ability#Supernatural) are specifically immune to.



Besides, where the heck do you get a supernatural prismatic wall from?

Only way I am aware of (Dweomerkeeper) is banned in ToS thanks to Alita. That said, the Prismatic Wall need not be supernatural to be effective.

Although I am curious now, is the cube impenetratable merely for players (in the sense that stuff that might get through it has LA: -, and/or is banned in ToS preventing players from using it), or does it extend to stuff that is *normally* only GM use (such as... well the infamous Emerald Legion).

[sofawall]

Although I am curious now, is the cube impenetratable merely for players (in the sense that stuff that might get through it has LA: -, and/or is banned in ToS preventing players from using it), or does it extend to stuff that is *normally* only GM use (such as... well the infamous Emerald Legion).

Does the Emerald Legion require LoE? Does it have Forceward? If the first is yes, and the second no, there is no way for it to begin to injure the Cube.

[JeminiZero]

Does the Emerald Legion require LoE? Does it have Forceward? If the first is yes, and the second no, there is no way for it to begin to injure the Cube.


As it stands what the Emerald Legion is/does is written for all to see in my sig. Whereas what the Cube is and does is hidden and known only to a small handful.

In other words, I *can't* tell what would happen if the 2 clash since only one side is known to me, whereas you are in a better position to judge since you can see both sides.

You are in essence answering my question with another question, one that isn't necessarily 'accurate' either (in the sense that something as powerful as the Legion might not need Forceward to bypass whatever it is you are using).

Anyway the Legion is merely an example. Rather than engage in a "do you have" discussion out here, I would like to request you send me the details on the cube (v2) and I will see if there are any odd tricks around it.

[Lysander]

Couldn't you summon another prismatic wall in its path? The two violet layers should neutralize each other.

[Icarus]

Living in a Flying Box (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19857754/Living_in_a_Flying_Box) might be relevant, also.

[Sinfire Titan]

Wait, does that mean I'm famous now? Someone just asked about one of my builds on the forums by name. :smallcool:

It does help to have a recognizable avatar, but just posting a few good optimization tips and a handbook or two does wonders for your name. Goes both ways though.


In other words, get an avatar.

[Eldariel]

It does help to have a recognizable avatar, but just posting a few good optimization tips and a handbook or two does wonders for your name. Goes both ways though.

In other words, get an avatar.

What's that? Couldn't hear you over the sound of how awesome not having an avatar is.

[Mystic Muse]

Does anyone have a link to the thread where it was made? I'm curious to see what contraption of feats pulled it off.

Also, I want to make sure it can stand up to the Lightsaber, the RAW-legal +5 magic sword I made that casts disjunction and disintegrate each time it hits anything and can cut through any magic or mudane material. I used a chain of feats to bring the price down to under 1,000gp too. Can't tell you how of course. That's secret.

I don't care about the feats involved but can you tell me how to make the item itself?

[Worira]

No, because it's supersecretmagicoptimisationfu and if he tells you it will turn into a pumpkin at midnight.

[sofawall]

Basically, v2 exists only in a messy list of tricks in my notepad folder. Frankly, I don't want to combine it all into one post, mainly because I am extremely lazy. However, the only trick that is really needed above and beyond the Box is a Spell Clock (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cw/20070312a). Those things are appalling. You can set it, for example, to cast six dispelling screens surrounding the box every 10th of a second. So roughly 60 dispelling screens per round. Yeah.

[Lysander]

I don't care about the feats involved but can you tell me how to make the item itself?

You tell your DM that's its complete legit for your first level fighter to acquire with his starting wbl, but that's it's a bit complex to go into and he should take your word for it. Make sure to write the feats on your character sheet with really bad handwriting so he can't look them up. If he asks you to clarify say you have to use the bathroom or open the microwave and quickly run off. If he really presses you tell him you'll send him a link to a wizard's web-only article and then send him a made up link. When he tells you it didn't load say "huh, I guess the site is having problems." Hope he forgets. Worst case scenario, go to a wizards article about any sword and view the html page code. Copy and paste it into a word document and just change the text to describe whatever sword you want to get by him. Then send him the article as an html document.

[Mystic Muse]

*snip*

So, is this just a joke or do you just don't want to tell me?

[sofawall]

So, is this just a joke or do you just don't want to tell me?

I believe it's some snark at me.

[Cieyrin]

I believe it's some snark at me.

Snorks?
http://www.infancia80.com.br/cinetv/snork05.gif:smalltongue:

[Lysander]

I believe it's some snark at me.

No offense intended. I was just really curious how the trick worked.

I hadn't heard of spell clocks before. Can you set them to recast at any interval or does there have to be a recharge time?

[PhoenixRivers]

Build a room. Forbid and/or Dimensional Lock the inside to prevent teleportation and other planar travel shenanigans. Now layer a Prismatic Wall onto the outside wall, and then a Wall of Force, and then a wall of the hardest material you can find (for SRD reference, Magically Treated Adamantine would be Hardness 40, which is pretty good. At a minimum you want something that can't be ripped up by any old yahoo with an adamantine weapon.) That's the basic structure, which was known as The Box during its participation as the target of a challenge thread not too long ago. You can layer those walls a few more times if you want to make it really unpleasant to get into; it's relatively unlikely that anybody will normally carry the resources needed to break 3 Walls of Force, 3 layers of Hardness 40+ HP 60+ metal, and disassemble or Disjunct 3 Prismatic Walls.

It transitions into the Cube (ref. Borg Cube; also ref. "That's not a moon!") when you make it mobile and arm it. Build self-targetting, resetting traps on the outside surface, or just write a zillion Explosive Runes on it and drive it into your enemies.

Wouldn't a decent SR allow penetration of the Dimensional Lock shenanigans on the inside?

[Kurald Galain]

No, because it's supersecretmagicoptimisationfu and if he tells you it will turn into a pumpkin at midnight.

Even though the RAW of it is really quite atrociu.
If you buff it high enough you'll always play precociu.
Supersecretmagicoptimisationfu!

[sofawall]

No offense intended. I was just really curious how the trick worked.

I hadn't heard of spell clocks before. Can you set them to recast at any interval or does there have to be a recharge time?

As far as I can ascertain, any interval. Really really crazy item.

[Lysander]

As far as I can ascertain, any interval. Really really crazy item.

Yeah. Geez. I wonder if you can set Wish on a timer.

[tyckspoon]

Yeah. Geez. I wonder if you can set Wish on a timer.

Sure. It's basically a formalization of a spell-bearing trap anyway, as made famous by the Tippyverse (although potentially much, much cheaper, as they seem to have forgotten the bit about specifying that you have to pay the costs of the spell you want to put in it.)

[Lysander]

Sure. It's basically a formalization of a spell-bearing trap anyway, as made famous by the Tippyverse (although potentially much, much cheaper, as they seem to have forgotten the bit about specifying that you have to pay the costs of the spell you want to put in it.)

The article does imply some limits though:


The spell clock is a fusion of clockwork and magic that works as a timer for stored, long-duration spells on a particular place or creature every hour.

So it seems intended to just cast the spell every hour on the hour.

The spell list is limited to a "typical" list, though it doesn't explicitly say it can't do other spells:


Typical spells used in spell clocks include: antimagic field, antiplant shell, antilife shell, daylight, dispel magic, energy conversion, elemental swarm, flame arrow, fog cloud, foresight, heroism, glibness, invisibility, invisibility purge, keen edge, magic circle against evil, protection from spells, repel vermin, resist energy, spider climb, stoneskin, telepathic bond, teleportation circle, tongues, web, and the various wall spells.

[Half-Full]

...
So it seems intended to just cast the spell every hour on the hour.
...

It just says every hour. If one is to believe that it means a spell can only be cast once every hour, one could just say that a new hour starts every 1/x second. That way, there's always a new hour.

Unfortunately, that can easily used be the DM as well... Just imagine if he pulled that argument on every single duration buff one had cast on oneself...

[tyckspoon]

The article does imply some limits though:


Imply, perhaps, but not state, and the plot-hook suggestions don't follow those implied limits either. The Use and Powers section basically just says that it's a repeating spell trigger. There is no actual definition of when or how often it can trigger or exactly what can be put in it, and the mention of one-use clocks as trap triggers tells us you can put offensive spells in it if you want (the author just seemed to consider having a permanent repeating Fireball or something to be relatively useless.)

[JeminiZero]

Basically, v2 exists only in a messy list of tricks in my notepad folder. Frankly, I don't want to combine it all into one post, mainly because I am extremely lazy.

Hey, if I can write the entirety of the Emerald Legion into one thread, you can certainly do the same for the cube. :smalltongue:



However, the only trick that is really needed above and beyond the Box is a Spell Clock (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cw/20070312a). Those things are appalling. You can set it, for example, to cast six dispelling screens surrounding the box every 10th of a second. So roughly 60 dispelling screens per round. Yeah.


While a single Legionnaire can theroretically spam 3-6 disjunctions per round, I was thinking of something far less reliant on TO brokeness. For example, running a Legionnaire vs the V1 box (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7359949), I was thinking of getting through in this manner:
1) Prismatic Wall: Ignore entirely due to magic immunity (also see below)
2) Force Wall: Psionic Disintegrate
3) Obdurium/Dirt/Lead: Can either smash through with sheer brute force, or use disintegrate again. Being able to shoot 3-6 disintegrates per round helps.

Note: Magic Immunity as a means of bypassing Prismatic Wall is generally only available to DMs. It is added easily enough via golem grafts for a small CR bump, but these grafts are generally unavailable to players since those grafts are LA: -. This is an exmaple of what I mean by stuff that can get through the wall that is DM available, but not player available.

[sofawall]

2) Force Wall: Psionic Disintegrate
3) Obdurium/Dirt/Lead: Can either smash through with sheer brute force, or use disintegrate again. Being able to shoot 3-6 disintegrates per round helps.

You're immune to Prismatic Wall, but are your powers?

[JeminiZero]

You're immune to Prismatic Wall, but are your powers?

Why would the powers need to be immune? A legionnaire can simply reach through to fire them off behind the prismatic wall, and at the wall of force/obduirum/lead/dirt.

[sofawall]

Why would the powers need to be immune? A legionnaire can simply reach through to fire them off behind the prismatic wall, and at the wall of force/obduirum/lead/dirt.

I wonder if you realize that there is zero space between the walls.Also, zero space between the Wall of Force and the Obdurium. If it were otherwise, a sufficiently small creature could simply hide in between.

[JeminiZero]

I wonder if you realize that there is zero space between the walls.Also, zero space between the Wall of Force and the Obdurium. If it were otherwise, a sufficiently small creature could simply hide in between.

Since the Legionnaire can reach through the prismatic wall, he can fire off disintegrate while touching the wall of force. That means he should be able to hit the wall of force regardless of the fact there is a prismatic wall on top of it. No space is required.

It works the same way with creatures with armor vs incorporeal touch attacks. Despite the fact there is a thick layer of armor on top of the creature, and no intervening space in between, its incorporeal enemy can simply reach through it and deliver touch attacks at the creature.

[sofawall]

Well, the fun part of creatures is you can reach past the armour to inside them. That helps with hitting them.

Also, armour is rarely skintight.

[JeminiZero]

Also, armour is rarely skintight.


Natural armor is... well, its in fact the skin. And incorporeal creatures still ignore it.

Anyway, back to the topic on hand. Any reason why an enemy who can touch the wall of force (underneath the prismatic wall) can't target it with disintegrate?

[absolmorph]

Wait, does that mean I'm famous now? Someone just asked about one of my builds on the forums by name. :smallcool:
You're famous to me.
I've recognized you by name for a few months now, because of the Cube.
Also, I find this thread humorous. The nigh-unkillable Emerald Legion taking on the Cube.

[JeminiZero]

Also, I find this thread humorous. The nigh-unkillable Emerald Legion taking on the Cube.

As I noted above, the Emerald Legion in this case is merely an example of stuff that is DM available but not player available. I am trying to figure out if it might have vulnerabilities that can be exploited by monsters which players can't access, but which the Cube might realistically face as it wanders the world (i.e. is your DM is tired of you hiding in it).

So for example, instead of the Emerald Legion, the Cube might face a Level 11 Psion, who has now gained access to level 6 powers and Psionic Disintegrate. The Psion can use Schism to crank out 2 disintegrates per round. We add +2 CR golem graft putting the Psion at CR 13 (The same CR as ToS).

The Psion might voluntarily fail his will save during the Golem Graft and transform into a full Construct gaining its considerable immunities (e.g. level drain, ability damage and drain) on top of magic immunity and to reroll his HD as d12s. Combine all this with temp HP from Vigor, energy resistance from energy adapatation, and you have a reasonably tough target.

So in one round the Psion can fly up to the cube, ignore the prismatic wall, and fire 2 disintegrates at point blank. This removes the Wall of Force and a block of Obdurium, opening up a space within the cube, which he can then move into. After that... well I'm not sure how well defended the cube is once he is inside.

[PhoenixRivers]

As I noted above, the Emerald Legion in this case is merely an example of stuff that is DM available but not player available. I am trying to figure out if it might have vulnerabilities that can be exploited by monsters which players can't access, but which the Cube might realistically face as it wanders the world (i.e. is your DM is tired of you hiding in it).

Odd, my way of dealing with it when a player creates such an obvious piece of skullduggery, and hides in it?

Two words.

Rocks Fall.

[Ormagoden]

Wait, does that mean I'm famous now? Someone just asked about one of my builds on the forums by name. :smallcool:

If you build it, they will come.

[mastermind]

Epic. Spells.
:smallbiggrin:
Since they are usually homebrewed, it may be plausible to use them to get into The Cube


Edit: Spell is here
Forced Entrance
conjuration
Level: Sor/Wiz 10, Cleric 10
Components: V/S/M
Casting time: 1 minute
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target: 1 person/ caster level
Duration: 1 min/ caster level
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

This spell secures the teleportation of the targets into any area warded by a spell of 9th level or lower.

[absolmorph]

Odd, my way of dealing with it when a player creates such an obvious piece of skullduggery, and hides in it?

Two words.

Rocks Fall.
That's funny. Mine is to throw a level 100 caster I have statted up at them.
To each their own, right?

[sofawall]

After that... well I'm not sure how well defended the cube is once he is inside.

Well, it's basically a simple Cerebremancer build, but minus one feat and all its WBL.