Hmm.... On the last two strips

[Croakamancer]

Don't get me wrong, I liked them in themselves, but both of them seem like...

Well, like filler. That's an easy term to throw around, but I'd say it fits here. Both were entirely self contained, focusing on a single punchline...

Now, one strip like that, fine. Helps regulate pacing, gives us a nice laugh along the way... nothing to argue with, and nothing Rich hasn't done before. Two in a row though? I can't recall two such 'stand alone' comics coming from Rich in a fair while, not one after the other.

It's starting to worry me. I'm not saying it's wrong, but the trend slightly alarms me..

[Harr]

It's showing the results of the OOTS's efforts at gathering information about Girard's secret organization. It might be filler-y, maybe more focused on the humor than normal, but I wouldn't call it filler per se. Filler is like, the backstage interviews or sorceress-pie type of thing.

I mean, sure we could have come upon the OOTS after all this with Roy saying, "Well guys, none of us found anything in our search!" but what would be the fun of that (and what if one of them actually does find something?).

Anyway I think we can expect at least a couple more of these with Roy, V, Belkar, or Durkon. Which is not a bad thing. At least they're coming in at an awesome rate :smallsmile:

[Optimystik]

I'm happier with fast filler than slow story.

Fast story would be best, but whatever motivates the Giant to churn them out is okay with me. Besides, they are funny. :smallsmile:

[Elfey]

I'm morbidly curious about Belkar's trip to the brothels...

[SPoD]

It's starting to worry me. I'm not saying it's wrong, but the trend slightly alarms me..

Also, the sky is falling.

"Oh noes, two comics in a row that have the same basic theme, he's obviously completely abandoned his story after 700+ strips!"

[veti]

I'm enjoying this 'filler'. It's returning the focus to the party, and it's doing it in such a way as to reassure us that we haven't missed anything more than a few days of trudging: this is precisely what they said they were going to be doing, last time we saw them.

It's been a long time since the party has had any doubt about what they should be doing: the last time they had to stop and make an actual decision or plan was probably strip 318. Now they're having to flail around for leads. Every D&D party hates that, but the DM will do it to them anyway from time to time.

As for "unprecedented", not counting the early strips, how about:

206-209
334-335
?

[SPoD]

As for "unprecedented", not counting the early strips, how about:

206-209
334-335
?

Why go so far back? What about 675-676? Two strips in a row where a member of the Order looks for something, encounters wacky hijinks, and then leaves. Just like the last two. The current strips are actually FAR more plot-relevant than Haley's trip to buy new armor in 675, too.

[NerfTW]

Well, like filler. That's an easy term to throw around, but I'd say it fits here.

No, not really.

"Filler" usually means to pad something out for the sake of length or to fill in an unintended gap.

It certainly does not apply to pacing that you don't like. There have always been one off gag strips, and this is very relevant to the plot at hand. Do you want to be entertained, or do you just want to hear "So the order looked around and eventually one of them found something!"?

[Croakamancer]

I mean, sure we could have come upon the OOTS after all this with Roy saying, "Well guys, none of us found anything in our search!" but what would be the fun of that (and what if one of them actually does find something?).

It'd make more sense, at least from my perspective (so long as it was handled a little better than that). If one of the party does find something... Well, I wouldn't mind so much, no.

Although, what's to stop us just going with one such strip? Or two, with a filler first for a little misdirection? Why cycle through all the OotS? It feels overly drawn out for the start of an arc.


Also, the sky is falling.

"Oh noes, two comics in a row that have the same basic theme, he's obviously completely abandoned his story after 700+ strips!"

Now, that's not fair. I wasn't alarmist. I never said he'd abandoned the story. I liked the strips. :smalltongue: I was making a stylistic point, and one that went beyond 'same basic themes'.


unprecedented

A; Don't put words into my mouth here. I didn't say unprecedented. In fact, I pointed out it'd happened before, just not for a while. :smalltongue:
B; Both of those were quite a while ago. You can't say the strip hasn't changed significantly since then.


675-676

That's more relevant, but I don't account those as the same :smallwink: (I did think of them when posting.) Both of them were showing something, and tying into the longer plot more directly. They also served pacing wise, to make the story flow a little.

These, on the other hand? They start off the arc, and accomplish little. Haley's shopping trip showed the OotS acclimatizing to the local culture, and thus, whilst they were mostly filler, felt more integrated. These two are generic, and could fit for almost any situation. As I say, they stand alone. I could read these without having read the end of the last Order arc, and enjoyed them all the same

Yes, I'm complaining about something I like. :smalltongue: I've no objection to them in themselves, but I'm not overfond of the idea of sitting through one of these for all the Order. They'll be funny, true, but it... well, seems off to me.

That's why I didn't post on the comic discussion page. It's a wider point, not about the strips themselves.

Then again, perhaps it just feels worse than it is, because this arc is starting with such 'one off strips' rather than using them in media res. These strips seem to remind me of bonus material from books rather than regular strips...


It certainly does not apply to pacing that you don't like. There have always been one off gag strips, and this is very relevant to the plot at hand. Do you want to be entertained, or do you just want to hear "So the order looked around and eventually one of them found something!"?

A semantic difference there, surely? :smallwink: The difference between 'padding' and 'pacing you don't like' is a matter of perception.

One or two of these, fine. But if this cycle continues with no plot advancement, I would count that as filler, padding out the start of this arc. I'd still like it, still read the comic, but I'd still consider that portion slightly... lesser.

These strips are funny, I've said that repeatedly. However showing all the Order doing this does feel like padding it out.

[Optimystik]

"Filler" usually means to pad something out for the sake of length or to fill in an unintended gap.

It certainly does not apply to pacing that you don't like.

I actually agree with the label. Of the 11 panels in this latest strip, only panel 7 had anything to do with the plot. All of the rest was for the joke. It was a great joke, but that doesn't make it not be filler.

Perhaps that's an overly pejorative term, which can make people defensive, but if I could think of a better label I'd use it.

[Draz74]

Both of them were showing something, and tying into the longer plot more directly. They also served pacing wise, to make the story flow a little.

These, on the other hand? They start off the arc, and accomplish little.

I'm not sure I agree. These strips pretty clearly are a continuation of the plan we saw the Order making in 698. I would have been upset if the planning conversation there hadn't led to anything.

[snoopy13a]

Technically, they aren't filler. They show members of the Order unsuccessfully looking for information. Therefore, they are relevant to the plot.

[The Dark Fiddler]

I actually agree with the label. Of the 11 panels in this latest strip, only panel 7 had anything to do with the plot. All of the rest was for the joke. It was a great joke, but that doesn't make it not be filler.

Perhaps that's an overly pejorative term, which can make people defensive, but if I could think of a better label I'd use it.

I'm not going to argue about whether or not it's filler, but uh... wouldn't the majority of the panels lean towards it not being filler? :smallconfused:

[Croakamancer]

I'm not sure I agree. These strips pretty clearly are a continuation of the plan we saw the Order making in 698. I would have been upset if the planning conversation there hadn't led to anything.

*nods* Fair enough. I would too. But if we go into five separate strips of every party member finding nothing, and then another when they discuss this...

Well, why have one for each member? Why not do one or two, and then cut to the meeting (and yes, Rich might do this, and if he does, I'll have egg on my face :smallwink:, but assume for now, as people suggest, he doesn't) It's fun, yes. But it's still filler.


Technically, they aren't filler. They show members of the Order unsuccessfully looking for information. Therefore, they are relevant to the plot.

When someone has to use the word 'technically'... ;)

Meh. Does that mean that if we'd seen panels of a conversation whilst the Order are walking through the desert, discussing ways to get there faster, it wouldn't count as filler? Because they're moving towards the gate, and planing a new way to get there?

If nothing comes of it, and the comic can stand without it, it's filler. That's a pejorative term, it can be good filler, getting the smiles back on our faces... but it's filler none the less.

I wouldn't have used the label if it'd been one strip, but two? If we do get all the Order going through this, it will seem like padding, at least to me.

[Brendan]

Filler would be like if The Giant had a BRILLIANT idea for 800 and absolutely had to do it. But... it was 796. The following ones are thus of xykon killing a bunch of people and shouting "I am a sexy skinless god of war." That self reference would absolutely be filler. This is just more humor oriented than usual.

[Croakamancer]

I'm not going to argue about whether or not it's filler, but uh... wouldn't the majority of the panels lean towards it not being filler? :smallconfused:

You can take the whole thing entirely out of context, and still understand exactly what's going on; Haley and Elan are both trying to gather information, and both are being unsuccessful at it. If the plot had called for it, these strips could have happened at any point in the comic that the Order had been in civilization.

[Croakamancer]

Filler would be like if The Giant had a BRILLIANT idea for 800 and absolutely had to do it. But... it was 796. The following ones are thus of xykon killing a bunch of people and shouting "I am a sexy skinless god of war." That self reference would absolutely be filler. This is just more humor oriented than usual.

Err... I'm not sure how you're defining the term filler here. I'm not worrying about the style or humor, both were fine. I'm just saying that these strips, whilst excellent, seem more like bonus material than the stuff we generally see on-line.

[Roland St. Jude]

It's starting to worry me. I'm not saying it's wrong, but the trend slightly alarms me..


Now, that's not fair. I wasn't alarmist.

:smallconfused:

You can recharacterize what you said as a "stylistic" comment or attack others specific responses as not responsive, but the fact of the matter is that after your opinion of the nature of the last two strips, you proceeded express both worry and alarm. You can back off that all you like or attack others' perception that you're being alarmist. But you chose the language in the OP and it conveys rather strong concern - not just a perception of padding or a dislike of it, but worry and alarm - about the future of the comic. It's logical for people to think both that your underlying definition of filler is incorrect and that your stridently phrased concern is unwarranted.

[Optimystik]

I'm not going to argue about whether or not it's filler, but uh... wouldn't the majority of the panels lean towards it not being filler? :smallconfused:

Well, no. The other 10 panels add nothing to the story. They are entertaining, but not very substantial.

As I said before though, I'd rather have filler than no updates at all. (Assuming that drawing up the filler keeps Rich from burning out on the story, that is.)

[Spielman]

It doesn't matter what happens, somebody will complain about it.

[Zasshi]

Seriously; has there ever been a strip where someone HASN'T called it filler? And anyway, I personally think there's going to be some huge punch line at the end; perhaps Belkar's trip to the brothels... perhaps not. Whatever happens, I'm always looking forward to the next strip! :smallcool:

[Snake-Aes]

Well, this thread is a sibling to the many other threads in the past that prove that a fanbase can never be fully pleased.


What is a filler to you?
Is it something that doesn't advance the plot? Then none of the strips since like #100 and the homages are fillers.
Is it something that doesn't include a crapton of dialogue and dramatic events? Then everything but the climaxes are fillers.

[The Vorpal Tribble]

I kind of thought they were random as well until I remembered that each member was going somewhere. Then realized they made perfect sense and now we have an idea of what we'll be seeing later on.

[Optimystik]

What is a filler to you?

I define it as a strip that can be omitted from the story (or made into a bonus strip) without impacting the narrative.

#709 was plot-important for several reasons. Right off the bat we saw that Tsukiko had deduced that the ritual was divine and arcane. Then we see the MitD following up on the promise made to him earlier. We get insight into why Tsukiko hates paladins from her objections. More importantly, we get insight into how the MitD has been taking O-Chul's teachings, showing how far he's come in such a relatively short time. Right after that, we learn O-Chul is still Cloistered, and will likely be for months. And the strip ends showing us that O-Chul and Lien haven't yet reached the Dwarven lands.

Compare to #710 and #711, which can both be summed up as "The Order has no luck finding Girard's group." Plenty of laughs, but narratively, this is a message that could be told in one panel, not two strips.

And to clarify - I'm not complaining that filler exists. I have no insight into the creation process - for all I know, penning gags like these gives Rich a much-needed break from poring over his notes. I'm fine with that. All I'm doing is making an observation.

Finally, I can already hear you say "knowing the Order isn't successful in their search does impact the narrative." To which I reply, of course it does. But we'll get that same information later when they reconvene.

[Ridureyu]

Yay, humor in OotS!

[Croakamancer]

Well, this thread is a sibling to the many other threads in the past that prove that a fanbase can never be fully pleased.


What is a filler to you?
Is it something that doesn't advance the plot? Then none of the strips since like #100 and the homages are fillers.
Is it something that doesn't include a crapton of dialogue and dramatic events? Then everything but the climaxes are fillers.

Why does everyone assume I'm criticising the strips....?

I can't quote you chapter and verse, but I'll show you the opposite to what I see here.

The strip with Hinjo's crowning

Didn't advance the plot a single bit. You could call it filler, but I don't, because it fitted. It was a pause in a load of plot focused stuff, allowed us all a good laugh, and a short break before getting back into the heavy stuff.

That's Rich's normal pattern. Generally, when he uses material like this, it's for the sake of pacing. To give us a rest from plot-centric stuff, a strip we can simply laugh at. And that's what we got here, no question. But using it to kick off an arc?

Does that get my point across any better? I too am not complaining, or at least not trying to... more observing something unusual.

[Zxo]

I'm fine with a few more of those, showing each member of the party. I miss the simple character humor from the early OoTS, there used to be more of it, even if I greatly enjoy the depth and complexity of the current plot.

I think the "filler" strips are designed to show us the new scenery, give us a tour of the desert city/ies, meet the locals - there was something similar when party arrived in Azure City. Maybe a lot will happen here, maybe people living here will be unwillingly involved in the fight for the Gate like the citizens AC or suffer the consequences of Xykon's presence.

[ref]

SPoD has it right.

[Harr]

You know, I see a lot of "if" here.

"If" the future strips continue to be like the last two.
"If" we end up cycling through all the OOTS before moving on.
"If" these style of strips last more than the two already there.

That's a whole lot of if, and honestly, it sounds like you're complaining about something that hasn't even happened yet. In fact, you're complaining about something that you have only imagined happening in your mind.

Would it be too difficult to chill out and see what happens, and IF something like the above happens, THEN say something, and not start complaining just because you imagine that something you don't like might, maybe, in the future have a chance of happening?

That's what's got everybody confused here. You clearly have no real problem with the strips that are already out; your problem is IF they continue for the next few weeks. People aren't really understanding why you're complaining today about something that may or may not have happened a couple weeks from now.

[tassaron]

It's really hard to judge whether a page is necessary or not when you don't have the whole book...

[EthanRayne]

I think the perception of it being filler comes from Rich writing it as a book. He varies the pacing and tone to keep it from getting too dark, includes lots of laughs, but keeps up the pace of plot progression generally.

We on the other hand wait for bits and pieces. We check the website, check it again, and then finally, IT's HERE. We can't wait to see if the OOTS will stop Xykon and then it's a joke.

I loved SOD and it had strips that were they a single strip they might seem like filler. Doesn't make it not an amazingly awesome book.

[ThePhantasm]

Its. A. Webcomic.

I understand why filler is annoying on a TV show. This isn't filler though, its clever jokes integrated with the plot. Many people enjoy it. The Giant has had the plot figured out for some time so he isn't stalling. Just sit back and enjoy the ride and don't demand a climax right away.

[SPoD]

I define it as a strip that can be omitted from the story (or made into a bonus strip) without impacting the narrative.

<snip>

Compare to #710 and #711, which can both be summed up as "The Order has no luck finding Girard's group." Plenty of laughs, but narratively, this is a message that could be told in one panel, not two strips.

Then by your own definition, #710 and #711 are not filler. Let me explain:

Your definition is a strip that can be omitted without impacting the narrative, not one that could be summed up in one panel without impacting the narrative. If Rich omitted those two strips, then we would not know what the result of Haley and Elan's search was, and we would be confused. Yes, he could sum it up in one panel of #712, but now he doesn't have to. He can use that one panel for something else. And he needs to convey that information to us. It is absolutely necessary. The fact that he chose to tell us with jokes and elaborations does not remove the necessity of telling us. Therefore, since #712 will certainly not include a recounting of what we just saw, #710 and #711 cannot be omitted.

To elaborate, I can sum up #200 as, "A figure appears out of the pouring rain, challenges the Order, and (when they don't surrender), proceeds to defeat them. At the last minute, it turns out she's a paladin and she tries to Smite Roy." There. That's all you need to know for the story. Everything else is window dressing. But no one would call #200 filler, because being able to summarize something does not mean the summary is as good as seeing it for yourself.

[Zeful]

The term "Filler" annoys me as a writer (aspiring though I may be). Because when taken out of context: Everything is filler. This is exponentially more noticeable in Webcomics because it's a single page (sometimes two or three in the Giant's case) of content. This page is out of context to the plot because it's part of a set, one for each character which shows their attempts at finding information. In order for it to stand on it's own it needs something to give it a structure that doesn't impede the remaining strips, which the joke does. Otherwise it's like the last two panels of Elan's strip: "Know anything?" "No." "Moving on then."

It's like learning to play chess and complaining that the pawn is too weak without being introduced to the rest of the pieces and the board. It's flawed reasoning at best.

Note: I am not saying that disliking the strip makes you an idiot (This is the internet, someone will take offense to my post and say it insults them) or that there aren't valid complaints to level at the strip. I'm saying that connectedness to the main plot isn't one of those valid complaints.

[ThePhantasm]

SpOd makes great points. Its all about pacing, people. The whole ride doesn't have to be a freaking roller coaster. It isn't that this stuff isn't relative to the plot, its just that the plot is moving a bit slower.

[Mr. Scaly]

Filler or not, I've enjoyed the last couple strips. The focus has been on the party and no one has been a psycho lately.

[factotum]

I define it as a strip that can be omitted from the story (or made into a bonus strip) without impacting the narrative.


I think if you took that to its logical extreme the entire strip up till now would have been half the length it is! Apart from the gag-a-day strips (which there haven't been all that many of, especially since they left the Dungeon of Dorukan) I don't think I'd class much as "filler" myself. I certainly don't consider this strip to be filler because it is showing an important plot point, namely, that Haley failed to find any information. Yes, you could have shown the same thing with the Order meeting up somewhere and saying "Nope" when Roy asks them what they found, but I don't think that would have been half as entertaining as the last couple of strips.

[Tass]

Once again SPoD has it right.

If the plot advanced as fast as some people want, the story would have been long over by 200, and it wouldn't be particularly good. I understand that you are anxious to see how things turn out, but remember it is not about the destination, but the journey there. We will get to the conclusion in time, and it will be all the sweeter.

[Killer Angel]

meh, I can see some of your reasons: you call the last 2 strips "filler", probably 'cause they are light-hearted, there's no drama, etc. The story-plot (apparently) don't goes on.
Even if it were true, see it this way: for every story, it's always good to take a break. You can't always go "over the top", you can't always travel at full speed limit.
Even action or war movies take a pause in the narration, sometime: Terminator 2 is not 100% full of duels, Saving Private Ryan is not a carnage all the time.
Every story needs his time.


Does that get my point across any better? I too am not complaining, or at least not trying to... more observing something unusual.

I'm giving you the doubt's benefit, but as even Roland pointed out, probably you didn't express your feelings very well in the OP.
So, leaving aside all worries 'bout the strip, as they were never expressed, shall we move on with the debate?

[Ave]

I'm happy with the funny fillers that are on topic. This means, the Giant doesn't want to cut the story short.

[Ancalagon]

Don't get me wrong, I liked them in themselves, but both of them seem like...

Well, like filler.

A filler is a something that has nothing to do with the story. This is the story. The Main Hereos looking for the McGuffin. What are you complaining about?

Sure, if it'd take a week for each update it'd be a bit annoying but I don't mind more of the "each char looks for the information his own way" comics. I do like them.

PS: I did not read the thread.

[Ceaon]

I understand why one would say these last two strips are "filler". The pacing seems lower than earlier, and the general direction of the comic's plot seems obvious for the next few strips. I can see how this could slightly bug someone.

Unfortunately, the word filler has become a bit tainted and is misused quite often, so I probably wouldn't use it to make a point. The point being: these "filler" strips have a different feel to them then previous strips, or even: these two strips are a kind of strip I don't want to see too often.

I think I can assure you.

OotS is, mostly, a gag-a-day gag-a-week gag-an-update comic, with an overarching, dramatic plot. Both humor and plot need to be given a chance. Since humor is harder to convey in dramatic, climactic moments, the beginning of an arc often feels a little slower and more predictable (or less unpredictable, if you're so inclined). Some would call some of these first strips filler, and I don't know or care whether that term applies.

All I know is, we'll be back to the more fast-paced, dramatic comics sometimes in the future. These strips are a build-up to a climax, just like a climax is a build-up to the next arc or to the epilogue.

[doodthedud]

Well, we've gotten like 5 in the time we normally get 2, so I'm not complaining

[Optimystik]

Then by your own definition, #710 and #711 are not filler. Let me explain:

Your definition is a strip that can be omitted without impacting the narrative, not one that could be summed up in one panel without impacting the narrative. If Rich omitted those two strips, then we would not know what the result of Haley and Elan's search was, and we would be confused. Yes, he could sum it up in one panel of #712, but now he doesn't have to. He can use that one panel for something else.

He may not have to, but I feel confident that he still will. We know the Order are going to reconvene at their predesignated meeting spot. The only logical thing for Roy to ask them once they all arrive is words to the effect of "Any luck, gang?" Or maybe we'll see them all walking down the street, with Roy griping about nobody being able to find anything. Either way, we've just gotten the exact same plot information that the last two strips provided. (And, if this trend continues, what 712 and 713 will provide.)


To elaborate, I can sum up #200 as, "A figure appears out of the pouring rain, challenges the Order, and (when they don't surrender), proceeds to defeat them. At the last minute, it turns out she's a paladin and she tries to Smite Roy." There. That's all you need to know for the story. Everything else is window dressing. But no one would call #200 filler, because being able to summarize something does not mean the summary is as good as seeing it for yourself.

#200 is different; in that strip, we learn the kinds of conditions that can hamper the Order's effectiveness. And you're right, seeing them firsthand makes a huge difference. If there is a subsequent strip where they have to fight in the driving rain, Rich will have to address that - either by making them fail again, or having them take precautions so they don't.

But will seeing the jokey adventurers or the Aton Ladies be more than a one-off joke? Well, obviously I'm not a clairvoyant, but I don't see anything about them that screams staying power or narrative importance.


The term "Filler" annoys me as a writer (aspiring though I may be). Because when taken out of context: Everything is filler. This is exponentially more noticeable in Webcomics because it's a single page (sometimes two or three in the Giant's case) of content. This page is out of context to the plot because it's part of a set, one for each character which shows their attempts at finding information. In order for it to stand on it's own it needs something to give it a structure that doesn't impede the remaining strips, which the joke does. Otherwise it's like the last two panels of Elan's strip: "Know anything?" "No." "Moving on then."

I'm fine with some strips being less connected to the overarching narrative than others. But strips like this feel like bonus strips. Generally, the online strips are more focused on the plot than the offline ones, while the extras can explore things like "Here's what Haley ended up doing while they all spun their wheels."


Unfortunately, the word filler has become a bit tainted and is misused quite often, so I probably wouldn't use it to make a point. The point being: these "filler" strips have a different feel to them then previous strips, or even: these two strips are a kind of strip I don't want to see too often.

Those are more accurate descriptions, just not as pithy as I would like. Like I said before - if I knew a better term to use than "filler" then I would. I agree that it's a bit too negative to really represent my position, but as I can't even seem to get across what my position is, (I'm barely sure myself - how do you articulate a gut feeling?) finding the right word for it is proving impossible.

[Croakamancer]

meh, I can see some of your reasons: you call the last 2 strips "filler", probably 'cause they are light-hearted, there's no drama, etc. The story-plot (apparently) don't goes on.
Even if it were true, see it this way: for every story, it's always good to take a break. You can't always go "over the top", you can't always travel at full speed limit.
Even action or war movies take a pause in the narration, sometime: Terminator 2 is not 100% full of duels, Saving Private Ryan is not a carnage all the time.
Every story needs his time.

I totally and unreservedly agree, except with your definition of filler. :p That's not what I meant at all, lots of light hearted, drama-less comics I wouldn't define as filler, because they let you have a break.

In fact, that's the point I'm trying to make (as garbled as the OP might look at this point). Pause in the narration, that generally happens in the middle of something, doesn't it? I know arcs tend to start slowly, but...

Well, compare this to the arrival in the desert city. That started slowly, but it started with stuff that seemed to advance the plot more, to be less... well, stand alone. All the strips were light, more or less drama free, and largely plot-irrelevant, but they worked because they still felt tied in

These don't, at least not to me. If we'd seen something else first, they might stand, but for starting off an arc.....


The term "Filler" annoys me as a writer (aspiring though I may be). Because when taken out of context: Everything is filler. This is exponentially more noticeable in Webcomics because it's a single page (sometimes two or three in the Giant's case) of content. This page is out of context to the plot because it's part of a set, one for each character which shows their attempts at finding information. In order for it to stand on it's own it needs something to give it a structure that doesn't impede the remaining strips, which the joke does. Otherwise it's like the last two panels of Elan's strip: "Know anything?" "No." "Moving on then."

As a Creative Writing University student :smallwink:, I agree with you, mostly. Note, I defined the issue with pacing as my main concern here, not the lack of plot advancement in itself, and gave examples of other strips that could be strictly called 'filler', that I don't regard as such because of their effect on the pacing.

I totally agree that many such strips are necessary, and generally, I like them. A new arc, however, generally starts... well, I'm not sure how to define it, but in a more plot-focused manner. I can't recall Rich ever having started an arc in this way before..


A filler is a something that has nothing to do with the story. This is the story. The Main Hereos looking for the McGuffin. What are you complaining about?

If you had read the thread (thank you for admitting that you hadn't) you would know.


Those are more accurate descriptions, just not as pithy as I would like. Like I said before - if I knew a better term to use than "filler" then I would. I agree that it's a bit too negative to really represent my position, but as I can't even seem to get across what my position is, (I'm barely sure myself - how do you articulate a gut feeling?) finding the right word for it is proving impossible.

*nods* I get this now, and agree. Filler draws all sorts of associations for people, that side-step the point I'm trying to make.

[Ceaon]

A new arc, however, generally starts... well, I'm not sure how to define it, but in a more plot-focused manner. I can't recall Rich ever having started an arc in this way before..

Well, there is of course the first arc... :smallamused:
Also, the arc has begun some strips ago now (38 to be exact).


Those are more accurate descriptions, just not as pithy as I would like. Like I said before - if I knew a better term to use than "filler" then I would. I agree that it's a bit too negative to really represent my position, but as I can't even seem to get across what my position is, (I'm barely sure myself - how do you articulate a gut feeling?) finding the right word for it is proving impossible.

I think most of us just really want to know the entire story. These strips may be fun, but do very little to advance the story. Since they are still (probably) needed to tell a good, interesting, well-paced story, there will be many more strips like these. So to enjoy this comic as much as possible, we'll "have" to enjoy these sort of strips as well.

Judging from the posts in this topic, I can see most of us do. :smallsmile:

[MacGiolla]

I for one have enjoyed the last two comics immensely, which even some of those arguing that they are filler admit as well. Given that this story will end at some point isn't it a good thing that we are getting more of something that we enjoy?

I'd rather have more of these types of strips (and I hope he does one for each of the order), than just a mad rush to the climax of the story and then no more OOTS ever.

I'm much more about prolonging the enjoyment rather than instant gratification.

[Kieran Cage]

The debate over whether or not something constitutes "filler" is rapidly approaching the MJEH (Morally Justified Event Horizon) and will hopefully soon serve as Roland bait.

[Killer Angel]

of light hearted, drama-less comics I wouldn't define as filler, because they let you have a break.

In fact, that's the point I'm trying to make (as garbled as the OP might look at this point). Pause in the narration, that generally happens in the middle of something, doesn't it? I know arcs tend to start slowly, but...

Well, compare this to the arrival in the desert city. That started slowly, but it started with stuff that seemed to advance the plot more, to be less... well, stand alone. All the strips were light, more or less drama free, and largely plot-irrelevant, but they worked because they still felt tied in

These don't, at least not to me.

Ah, I see...
Well, who knows? Maybe those two strips, apparently without purpose, are made to effectively show the failures of the most “gather infos PCs”, introducing the casual discovery of something important and totally unespected, by Belkar.
Suddenly, we have the setting of a plot twist...

[fishguy]

I am quite happy to let Rich drive this bus, at the speed he chooses over the route he selects. Nothing would make me happier than to have OotS progress at a slow crawl, with 80% of panels being joke set ups, 15% being joke punchlines and one liners and 5% being incremental baby steps advancing the plot ever so slightly...

When that last strip, last panel finally arrives that is going to be a very sad day and I am in no hurry to get to it.

[Optimystik]

When that last strip, last panel finally arrives that is going to be a very sad day and I am in no hurry to get to it.

EDITED: That wasn't oblique enough. Let me try this:

I'm not in a hurry to see the end either, but neither am I thrilled with the prospect of taking as much time as possible to get there, when none of us know what the future holds.


The debate over whether or not something constitutes "filler" is rapidly approaching the MJEH (Morally Justified Event Horizon) and will hopefully soon serve as Roland bait.

As Roland is obviously reading the thread, perhaps we should let him be the judge of that rather than predicting gloom and doom.

(I don't recall the OP using the term "Morally Justified" anywhere either.)

[fishguy]

The other side of the coin...

Dude you really just un-said that. Probably for the best.

[WreckedElf]

None of the recent strips have occured to me as being filler. They all have related to what the characters are doing, and all the characters are doing things related to the story one way or another.

Sure, they're not all major plot advancements, so perhaps from a primary plot perspective they're slow paced, but not filler (to me at least). But then I understand filler to be things placed into the comic for the sole purpose of making things last longer or throwing up random posts just so readers have something to look at while they wait. And all the recent posts seem to have more relavance to the webcomic than that.

[Kieran Cage]

(I don't recall the OP using the term "Morally Justified" anywhere either.)

Right...because that is EXACTLY what I just said...


Wow. Just wow. For a moment I was tempted to actually take the time to explain it, but...no. Not going there.

[pinwiz]

I find these strips to be quite wonderful. Not only are they hilarious, but they also expand the world of the comic. What are the main characters fighting to save? The taverns, the guilds, the laughs of other adventurers. It zooms out from our main characters for a moment and augments the world that has been created, which provides the plot with more substance.

Or maybe i just like making random stuff up. I tend to do that.:smalltongue:

[Optimystik]

Dude, really? You really just said that?

I'd be lying if I said it wasn't a genuine concern for me. However, I can see how it might be viewed negatively, even as obliquely as I wrote it. Edited.


Right...because that is EXACTLY what I just said...


Wow. Just wow. For a moment I was tempted to actually take the time to explain it, but...no. Not going there.

I know exactly what you meant. I was actually around when the thread that gave birth to that ridiculously overdone phrase saw the light of day. After the 8th or so copycat thread, Roland openly wondered whether he should add it to the board filter - a decision I completely support, if only to stop people from referencing it ad nauseam.

[Nekomata]

Don't get me wrong, I liked them in themselves, but both of them seem like...

Well, like filler. That's an easy term to throw around, but I'd say it fits here. Both were entirely self contained, focusing on a single punchline...

I'd say the plot is in the eye of the beholder.
I see plot.
710 is "Elan attempts to Gather Information in an inn, with no success."
711 is "Haley attempts to contact the local thieves guild, but is thwarted by a misunderstanding."

I imagine someone could say 710 is "Some guys joke around in a bar, and Elan ruins the mood." and 711 is "Haley purchases two jars of moisturizer.", but on the same basis you could ignore all the plot and only see the filler eveywhere.

EDIT:

sorceress-pie type of thing.
Wait, what?

[ClockShock]

Personally, i've enjoyed the last two more than the former half a dozen.
The change of pace is most welcome.

[Lord of Syntax]

I like 711, but hate 710 so much.

[Nilan8888]

I would very much disagree with the poster.

Were these 'filler'? I guess you could argue that they were, but no more 'filler' than a lot of classic strips Rich has done. No more filler than V's "Law of Random Encounters" strip, which was just fantastic.

I suppose these strips do suffer, in a way, in touching on notes that have been done before in the strip -- but really it's been a long, long time since they were so I think it's perfectly fine.

Frankly the past few strips concerning the Order were suffering a bit from the main dynamic being V's angst and Belkar hitting the sociopath button. And Roy once in a while getting ticked off at thier situation. Thes strips do a good job of reminding us that the others in the party are still there doing things.

This let Elan and Haley have a few humorous character moments that are really thier first since the book began. Sure, they've had a strip or two centered on them where they did something or other, but it wasn't particuarly funny or substantial. In #710 we see Elan doing something very much fitting with Elan. And for me it was pretty funny. It wasn't the FUNNIEST thing he's done, but I think it was moving in the right direction.

Haley's stuff was even better. It played a bit on Xykon's advertisment gags back from when he recruited Tsukiko, but that's all right. The whole Avon thing was pretty good for what it did.

These strips are really the first of the Order LIVING and DOING things in thier new environment instead of juest being concerned with getting from point A to point B. I thought they were a considerable improvement from a dynamic that was growing kinda stale since we last left them.

[Nimrod's Son]

But will seeing the jokey adventurers or the Aton Ladies be more than a one-off joke? Well, obviously I'm not a clairvoyant, but I don't see anything about them that screams staying power or narrative importance.
I think you're seriously underestimating the significance of Chekhov's Moisturiser here. :smallwink:

[JonestheSpy]

i personally find the idea of a series of strips illustrating how members of te Order fail their Gather Information checks pretty amusing.

And yeah, when they're coming three or four times a week, anyone complaining deserves a sneak attack upside the head.

[LuisDantas]

We don´t really know that either of these strips are filler, either. For all we know, any of the NPCs introduced in #710 could end up being important later on.

Besides, the pair of strips served as a welcome reminder of the characterization of the PCs and an opportunity for a little levity.

While we are having triple-speed updates, while at that.

Fine by my book. :smallwink:

[Nimrod's Son]

Actually, this section reminds me of the bit just before they set off to find the starmetal:

#135: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0135.html) Vaarsuvius goes and buys some potions and gets wound up by the shopkeepers.
#136: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0136.html) Roy tries, unsuccessfully, to buy a new weapon.
#137: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0137.html) Elan tries, unsuccessfully, to have Banjo accepted as a god.
#138: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0138.html) Durkon tries, unsuccessfully, to buy some stealthier armour.
A succession of strips focussing on one character at a time while they achieve very little (Okay, V got his potions, but still). Almost all of it could have been cut from the story, but what would that achieve? It doesn't in any way drag; quite the opposite, it enriches the telling of the tale.

[Obrysii]

I hate when people use the term "filler" ... what is filler?

To me, I'd rather have something than nothing. And I have been enjoying these strips.

Especially 711. That one was awesome.

[Fish]

It doesn't affect the plot... as far as you know... yet. It might. In fact, I can think of a highly probable way in which it would.
The Order is going around asking everyone if they've seen a group hiding in the desert that just spent a huge fortune in gold. Even though they have not learned anything, they've given out more information than they believe. Now every two-bit thief, adventurer and cutpurse in every tavern in every major town knows there's a group out in the desert with a major fortune ... You think that won't come back to haunt them somehow?

[JonahFalcon]

I must admit I'm feeling a little bit of "Get on with it already".

[Swordpriest]

I'm not. Letting the story develop like this makes the world seem more rounded and alive and funny, and it's a relief from that desert search in any case. On the other hand, I wouldn't have minded a few more strips focused on Team Evil, and a brief digression to O-chul and Lien.

Still, humor for humor's sake is pleasant after that arc with V being screwed over by universal fiat, Haley performing a Psycho visit on Crystal in the bathroom, and the insufferable Celia appearing in half the strips.

[Rebarth]

Once when OotS was around the 2-digit strips, there was almost no plot what so ever. That, I think, was when the comic was at it best. Personally, I prefer MORE of these random, non plot related singulars. That is when the giant is not forced with tying a joke or a punchline to the plot, and simply goes all out.:smallwink: