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View Full Version : A (Quite Horrific) New Use of the Fabricate Spell



Lycanthromancer
2010-03-30, 06:29 PM
Fabricate. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fabricate.htm)
Psionic fabricate. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/fabricatePsionic.htm)

Now, a corpse is technically an object, what with no Wis or Cha scores, and as such, dead bodies are valid targets for fabricate and the psionic version thereof.

It certainly makes processing food animals easier, but I'm sure I'm not the only one who can come up with rather disturbing ways to use this ability.

Are you stranded on an island with no trees to build a boat, but plenty of useless kobolds? Only for as long as those lizards can run.

Did those pesky twins you fireballed annoy you back when they were alive, and you want to get back at them before you're contractually obligated to raise them from the dead? You could make the phrase 'joined at the hip' more than just a saying.

Were you wanting a new set of robes, but phase spider silk just isn't exotic enough for you, while across the street the orphanage just got in a new shipment of baby half-elves?

I'm sure you can fill in some blanks here.

Eurus
2010-03-30, 06:31 PM
Aren't you also counted as an object if you're ability damaged down to 0 int/wis/cha? :smalleek:

Claudius Maximus
2010-03-30, 06:33 PM
Aren't you also counted as an object if you're ability damaged down to 0 int/wis/cha? :smalleek:

No. For ability scores, there's a difference between 0 and -. You need - wisdom and charisma to count as an object.

Last Laugh
2010-03-30, 06:33 PM
Aren't you also counted as an object if you're ability damaged down to 0 int/wis/cha? :smalleek:

If this is true I can have much fun...
Edit: and zombies have 1 charisma :pouts:

jiriku
2010-03-30, 06:36 PM
Well, you could start with the corpse, shape it with fabricate, then animate it. Bonsai zombies!

Lycanthromancer
2010-03-30, 06:37 PM
Whaddaya say? Better than grafts?

TripperdeCleric
2010-03-30, 06:38 PM
First off you are a sick person....but so am I.

Im going to look more indepth into this and see if I can make a grown man cry.

Eurus
2010-03-30, 06:39 PM
No. For ability scores, there's a difference between 0 and -. You need - wisdom and charisma to count as an object.

Oops. Still horrifying, then, but slightly less so.

The Shadowmind
2010-03-30, 06:47 PM
Polymorph Any Object into an object, then Fabricate.
I think it works by RAW.

Private-Prinny
2010-03-30, 06:49 PM
I wonder if I can use this to get my party's BSF to go up a size category...
Were you wanting a new set of robes, but phase spider silk just isn't exotic enough for you, while across the street the orphanage just got in a new shipment of baby half-elves?^That's one is so evil, and yet so funny at the same time.

UglyPanda
2010-03-30, 06:56 PM
Wait, you haven't used your enemies' corpses as raw materials before?

I'm not trying to be funny here; I've tried to make weapons out of my enemies' rib cages.

Endarire
2010-03-30, 07:03 PM
Does this mean we can mix & match body parts from corpses to make abominations and other awkward 'species' with animate dead?

Ravingdork
2010-03-30, 07:07 PM
If corpses are considered objects, that means they are immune to conjuration (healing) effects, right?

Doesn't that then mean that they cannot be raised, resurrected, or otherwise brought back to life? :smallbiggrin:

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-30, 07:11 PM
Polymorph Any Object into an object, then Fabricate.
I think it works by RAW.

Until the polymorph wears off, I suppose it be funny when someone's wool shirt turns back into a wolverine.

sofawall
2010-03-30, 07:30 PM
Now, a corpse is technically an object, what with no Wis or Cha scores

I was about to ask if that was really true, as I've never seen anything (to my memory) calling a dead body an object, or saying you lose stats when you die, but then I realized there are no rules for actually being dead.

mucat
2010-03-30, 08:27 PM
but then I realized there are no rules for actually being dead.
Well, sure. It's one of those skills that everyone manages when the time comes. With no prior training!

Lycanthromancer
2010-03-30, 08:37 PM
For reference, I'm playing a Lawful Evil blue shaper/constructor (fluff-wise; real race is synad), with psionic fabricate that was tormented and experimented upon (and driven insane) by illithids.

So, y'know, this is gonna be a handy-dandy primer, really.

Coidzor
2010-03-30, 08:48 PM
Does this mean we can mix & match body parts from corpses to make abominations and other awkward 'species' with animate dead?

The Truth Behind Owl Bears!

Lycanthromancer
2010-03-30, 08:55 PM
Flesh to stone could have some intriguing implications as well.

Also, metamorphosis...

Private-Prinny
2010-03-30, 09:22 PM
Does this mean we can mix & match body parts from corpses to make abominations and other awkward 'species' with animate dead?

This comes to mind. (http://www.nuklearpower.com/2006/03/23/episode-676-supernatural-selection/)

Angry Bob
2010-03-30, 09:45 PM
How about flesh to stone, stone shape, and then stone to flesh? Seems like it would work the same sort of way, only you might have even more options.

Flesh to Stone on the party fighter.

Stone Shape, or Fabricate, or whatever, attach about eight new arms where there weren't any before.

Flesh to Stone, see what happens.

Dr Bwaa
2010-03-30, 09:47 PM
The Truth Behind Owl Bears!

Of course! We finally know!

Lycanthromancer
2010-03-30, 09:53 PM
Just two words: MEAT TREES.

Also, combined with gentle repose, you could open a gallery.

But is it ART?!

Abd al-Azrad
2010-03-30, 10:40 PM
Wait, you haven't used your enemies' corpses as raw materials before?

I'm not trying to be funny here; I've tried to make weapons out of my enemies' rib cages.

Dude, haven't you used your enemies as raw materials before? The party barbarian clubbing the enemy mage to death with his own familiar? Because that is class.

I will admit the part that makes this idea truly wonderful/evil is that the material stays the same. "You convert material of one sort into a product that is of the same material." Gentle Repose makes this doable on a semi-permanent basis with upkeep, but... well, who's ever seen this place (http://www.kostnice.cz/) before?

Lycanthromancer
2010-03-30, 10:49 PM
Dude, haven't you used your enemies as raw materials before? The party barbarian clubbing the enemy mage to death with his own familiar? Because that is class.

I will admit the part that makes this idea truly wonderful/evil is that the material stays the same. "You convert material of one sort into a product that is of the same material." Gentle Repose makes this doable on a semi-permanent basis with upkeep, but... well, who's ever seen this place (http://www.kostnice.cz/) before?bwnd Obligatory text

Abd al-Azrad
2010-03-30, 10:54 PM
bwnd

I have no words for how fantastic a pun that was. Well done, Lycan. Well done.

Irreverent Fool
2010-03-31, 04:24 AM
No. For ability scores, there's a difference between 0 and -. You need - wisdom and charisma to count as an object.

Don't you mean — ? :smallbiggrin:

On the subject of objects and conjuration (healing) spells, does a polymorphed corpse still count as a dead creature? What happens when that boat you turned Billy the Kobold into has raise dead cast on it? Can we make liveships?

obnoxious
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TheYoungKing
2010-03-31, 04:30 AM
Just two words: MEAT TREES.

Also, combined with gentle repose, you could open a gallery.

But is it ART?!

And I just found something awesome for my necromantic city....

Vizzerdrix
2010-03-31, 05:31 AM
Soylent Green is made of PEEEOPLE!

As is all your teams gear :smallamused:

Taelas
2010-03-31, 05:58 AM
Corpses are not objects. They do not lose their mental ability scores.

Irreverent Fool
2010-03-31, 06:12 AM
Corpses are not objects. They do not lose their mental ability scores.

While I understand what you're saying (by RAW a creature doesn't stop being a creature simply by virtue of being dead and 'dead creature' is a specific type of target for spells such as raise dead), I really don't see any reason why a corpse shouldn't be treated as an object short of shrink item shenanigans. Moreover, I think in most games the DM will allow one to treat a corpse as such.

I believe I've seen WotC reference using animate objects on corpses, which would serve as an example to the contrary. I'll see if I can't find it.

I can't really think of anything more horrific to do with fabricate than has already been mentioned, though it does make the process of putting a face on your leatherbound book or lampshade a lot quicker.

obnoxious
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Strategos
2010-03-31, 06:12 AM
Corpses are not objects. They do not lose their mental ability scores.

I beg to differ:


Gentle Repose
Necromancy
Level: Clr 2, Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S, M/DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Corpse touched
Duration: One day/level
Saving Throw: Will negates (object)
Spell Resistance: Yes (object)

Since Gentle Repose targets a corpse and only grants objects saving throws we can safely conclude that a corpse is an object.

***edit Ninja'd... kinda /edit***

Irreverent Fool
2010-03-31, 06:19 AM
This was going to be an edit to my previous post but Strategos sort of beat me to the punch and for the sake of continuity I made a new post. I'm in the habit of editing my posts several times. :/

Edit:
I can't find the definition of the difference between "creature" and "object" though, except in the PHB glossary which states only "a living or otherwise active being, not an object". This seems to imply that a non-living and non-active being is not a creature and would suggest that such a thing is an object.

I think it's pretty clear that this is an issue where we were expected to simply fall back on RAI. Otherwise, there are a number of spells which simply will not work on corpses. If a dead creature is an object, it appears raise dead does not work. If a dead creature is not an object, it appears speak with dead does not work.

The solution then would be that a dead creature is both a creature and an object, which I believe would make some people from another thread regarding animated objects rather upset, and far be it from me to do such a thing.

obnoxious
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Strategos
2010-03-31, 06:26 AM
I believe I've seen WotC reference using animate objects on corpses, which would serve as an example to the contrary. I'll see if I can't find it.


You've given me a funny mental image:

Paladin: Stop Necromancer prepare to die!
Bard: What? I'm not a Necromancer what gives you that idea?
Adventurer: What?! But you've got a legion of Zombies behind you!
Bard: Ahh, but they're not Zombies, they're Animated Corpses.
Paladin: Isn't that the definition of a Zombie?
Bard: Not quite, A Zombie needs to be raised with Necromancy. But I didn't use Necromancy to summon them so they can't be Zombies!
Paladin: :smallconfused:

***edit I can't see anything in the Raise Dead text that contradicts corpses being objects. It's target is simply "Dead Creature Touched." It allows no saving throw and only talks about them not being able to be raised if they're Undead, which is a creature type not an object. /edit***

Irreverent Fool
2010-03-31, 06:34 AM
You've given me a funny mental image:

Paladin: Stop Necromancer prepare to die!
Bard: What? I'm not a Necromancer what gives you that idea?
Adventurer: What?! But you've got a legion of Zombies behind you!
Bard: Ahh, but they're not Zombies, they're Animated Corpses.
Paladin: Isn't that the definition of a Zombie?
Bard: Not quite, A Zombie needs to be raised with Necromancy. But I didn't use Necromancy to summon them so they can't be Zombies!
Paladin: :smallconfused:

***edit I can't see anything in the Raise Dead text that contradicts corpses being objects. It's target is simply "Dead Creature Touched." It allows no saving throw and only talks about them not being able to be raised if they're Undead, which is a creature type not an object. /edit***

One of my characters did this once with the Kinteticist power control object to great effect against enemy clerics who couldn't figure out why command undead wasn't working.

Hm... you may be right about raise dead. I still think the dilemma applies to other spells though.

obnoxious
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Strategos
2010-03-31, 07:00 AM
Hm... you may be right about raise dead. I still think the dilemma applies to other spells though.

obnoxious
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I've just had a quick look through the SRD and have come up with this:

Raise Dead – seems to be fine
Reincarnate – similar wording to Raise Dead
Animate Dead – Targets a corpse. The first line states:

This spell turns the bones or bodies of dead creatures into undead skeletons or zombies that follow your spoken commands. I'm pretty sure that a Bones are objects but it doesn't say anything one way or the other about them or 'bodies of dead creatures' and then it goes on to mention corpses in the material components so... I don't know.
Speak with Dead -Mentions that the corpse gets a will save to resist “As if it were alive” if the caster’s alignment is different, which is the stickiest part I’ve seen so far.
Create Undead /Greater Undead– Same issues as Animate Dead
Resurrection – is basically Raise Dead+ so is good
True Ressurection – bypasses the issue by not needing a corpse.

The main issues seems to be with Animate Dead and Speak with Dead, although , for the latter, that could simply because Unattended Objects don’t get saving throws normally. Gentle Repose seems to state that a Corpse is an object, and nothing in the Animate Dead line of spells contradicts it but doesn't support it either.

Grumman
2010-03-31, 07:10 AM
It certainly makes processing food animals easier, but I'm sure I'm not the only one who can come up with rather disturbing ways to use this ability.
No. If you can't do it with normal crafting, you can't do it with fabricate. The only advantage of Fabricate is that you don't need the same amount of time and tools.

Taelas
2010-03-31, 07:55 AM
I beg to differ:



Since Gentle Repose targets a corpse and only grants objects saving throws we can safely conclude that a corpse is an object.

***edit Ninja'd... kinda /edit***

No, you cannot "safely conclude" that. The fact that it uses object saving throws means nothing except that it uses object saving throws, and it does so because a dead creature cannot make actual saving throws -- it is dead. A creature does not lose its ability scores simply because it is dead, therefore it still has a Wisdom score and a Charisma score and is by definition not an object. There is absolutely no reason to assume it would lose its ability scores.

This is the only definition of objects in D&D. Anything without a Wisdom score (and therefore a Charisma score -- you cannot have one without the other) is an object. A corpse retains both, as silly as it may seem, and is therefore not an object.

Lycanthromancer
2010-03-31, 08:10 AM
No, you cannot "safely conclude" that. The fact that it uses object saving throws means nothing except that it uses object saving throws, and it does so because a dead creature cannot make actual saving throws -- it is dead. A creature does not lose its ability scores simply because it is dead, therefore it still has a Wisdom score and a Charisma score and is by definition not an object. There is absolutely no reason to assume it would lose its ability scores.

This is the only definition of objects in D&D. Anything without a Wisdom score (and therefore a Charisma score -- you cannot have one without the other) is an object. A corpse retains both, as silly as it may seem, and is therefore not an object.Made by inference.

After all, under your interpretation, my character's tent (treant wood frame, howler bone tent-spikes, and owlbear-leather) is a collection of creatures, not an object. As is his leather jerkin, his dragonbone cart, and the fawn jerky in his woven nymph-hair backpack.


No. If you can't do it with normal crafting, you can't do it with fabricate. The only advantage of Fabricate is that you don't need the same amount of time and tools.You can reshape an object in ways you cannot easily do otherwise. Although in some cases you could grind it up, mix it with, say, glue, and reform it.

If you can reshape actual meat into (gods forbid) Spam, you can do just about anything.

Lycanthromancer
2010-03-31, 08:14 AM
[Double-post]

Taelas
2010-03-31, 08:17 AM
Made by inference.

After all, under your interpretation, my character's tent (treant wood frame, howler bone tent-spikes, and owlbear-leather) is a collection of creatures, not an object. As is his leather jerkin, his dragonbone cart, and the fawn jerky in his woven nymph-hair backpack.

No. I have not said individual parts of a corpse count as a creature. For one thing, it would no longer be a corpse.

Coidzor
2010-03-31, 08:18 AM
^: So, what, you have to cut off all the arms and legs before you can reshape its bones and viscera and such to one's whim, even though you can just reattach them with the spell once you can cast it?

:smallconfused:

...Craft (Spam) is a horrible skill to have just invented.

Sadly, some of this would go under profession butcher, I think. :/

Craft (taxidermy) works for a fair bit of it though.

The Tygre
2010-03-31, 08:24 AM
No. I have not said individual parts of a corpse count as a creature. For one thing, it would no longer be a corpse.

So, by your definition, if I kill a creature by decapitation, it's no longer a corpse because the head and the body are separate and the head, which contains all the mental scores, is separate from the physical score body?

Lycanthromancer
2010-03-31, 08:24 AM
No. I have not said individual parts of a corpse count as a creature. For one thing, it would no longer be a corpse.It still counts for the purposes of various resurrection-type spells.

So either they are, or they aren't. You can't have it both ways.

Taelas
2010-03-31, 08:36 AM
It still counts for the purposes of various resurrection-type spells.

So either they are, or they aren't. You can't have it both ways.

No, they do not. Read the spells' descriptions. Resurrection requires merely a portion of the body, not a corpse; this is defined in the text. Raise dead requires a whole corpse; any "missing parts" remain missing. True resurrection requires nothing.

If you were to decapitate a creature, neither the head nor the body would count as a corpse.

The Tygre
2010-03-31, 08:53 AM
If you were to decapitate a creature, neither the head nor the body would count as a corpse.

So could they be counted as objects?

Lycanthromancer
2010-03-31, 08:58 AM
No, they do not. Read the spells' descriptions. Resurrection requires merely a portion of the body, not a corpse; this is defined in the text. Raise dead requires a whole corpse; any "missing parts" remain missing. True resurrection requires nothing.

If you were to decapitate a creature, neither the head nor the body would count as a corpse.So all I'd need in order to make my plan work is, say, to cut off a fingernail, or a clipping of hair?

Wow, this is complicated and difficult. [/sarcasm]

Taelas
2010-03-31, 09:05 AM
So could they be counted as objects?

Yes, but the idea presented in the original post of raising two creatures into one body would not work. You could combine two bodies (assuming they are decapitated) using fabricate, but you could not use raise dead on them. Resurrection and true resurrection would recreate their original bodies in the process of returning them to life.


So all I'd need in order to make my plan work is, say, to cut off a fingernail, or a clipping of hair?

Wow, this is complicated and difficult. [/sarcasm]
No. If you cut off a fingernail, the fingernail is an object, yes, but the rest of the body remains a corpse, thus not an object. It is a valid target for raise dead; the person will simply be missing a fingernail when raised. The body must be capable of actually living.

If you desecrate the corpse to the point that it is invalid for raise dead, then yes, it does not count as a creature and you can use fabricate on it.

Lycanthromancer
2010-03-31, 09:09 AM
Yes, but the idea presented in the original post of raising two creatures into one body would not work. You could combine two bodies (assuming they are decapitated) using fabricate, but you could not use raise dead on them. Resurrection and true resurrection would recreate their original bodies in the process of returning them to life.
But I could just fabricate the head back on while I'm performing...other alterations.


No. If you cut off a fingernail, the fingernail is an object, yes, but the rest of the body remains a corpse, thus not an object. It is a valid target for raise dead; the person will simply be missing a fingernail when raised. The body must be capable of actually living.

If you desecrate the corpse to the point that it is invalid for raise dead, then yes, it does not count as a creature and you can use fabricate on it.Where does the line lay, though? Cut off a fingernail, and it doesn't count. Does a hand? An arm? A leg? Below the waist? Hey, what if I don't cut off the head, but cut off the body instead?

The Tygre
2010-03-31, 09:10 AM
Yes, but the idea presented in the original post of raising two creatures into one body would not work. You could combine two bodies (assuming they are decapitated) using fabricate, but you could not use raise dead on them. Resurrection and true resurrection would recreate their original bodies in the process of returning them to life.


'Twas all I needed. I have enough rules on flesh crafting and necro-surgery. I was more interested in the idea of animating corpses with animate object to throw clerics a curve-ball.

Of course this begs the question; what's the difference between an animated corpse and a Deathless? Is it a matter of mental scores?

Taelas
2010-03-31, 09:10 AM
But I could just fabricate the head back on while I'm performing...other alterations.
Yes, but it would no longer be a corpse, but an object.


Where does the line lay, though? Cut off a fingernail, and it doesn't count. Does a hand? An arm? A leg? Below the waist? Hey, what if I don't cut off the head, but cut off the body instead?
As I said, it must be capable of living.

Taelas
2010-03-31, 09:25 AM
'Twas all I needed. I have enough rules on flesh crafting and necro-surgery. I was more interested in the idea of animating corpses with animate object to throw clerics a curve-ball.

Of course this begs the question; what's the difference between an animated corpse and a Deathless? Is it a matter of mental scores?

Deathless is a specific type. An animated body (regardless of whether it was animated through animate object or animate dead) is not turned into a deathless.

EvilBloodGnome
2010-03-31, 09:40 AM
'Twas all I needed. I have enough rules on flesh crafting and necro-surgery. I was more interested in the idea of animating corpses with animate object to throw clerics a curve-ball.

Of course this begs the question; what's the difference between an animated corpse and a Deathless? Is it a matter of mental scores?

It appears we need to make some sort of Frankenstein spell to bestow life to bodies we fabricate together. That'd be some super necromancy, yeah?

Also, I have no idea. Deathless retain some juujuu, I seem to remember, whereas an animated corpse would just count as a construct of some size.

And as long as we're still arguing what exactly a corpse is, from everything I can see it's an object as well as anything else it is. I'm not sure it counts as a creature, otherwise they're obviously a prime target for bull's strength.

Yuki Akuma
2010-03-31, 09:52 AM
Deathless is a specific type. An animated body (regardless of whether it was animated through animate object or animate dead) is not turned into a deathless.

But there are spells for turning corpses into Deathless. Just not those ones.

Lycanthromancer
2010-03-31, 10:02 AM
Yes, but it would no longer be a corpse, but an object.Where is this written, or even inferred?

You can infer that a corpse is an object from the fact that things made from corpses are objects, and that (IRL) dead things cannot see, hear, taste, touch, or purposefully affect their surroundings any more than a rock can.

If there's no reference to something RAW, the game defaults to real-life paradigms to determine how things work. In this case, corpses are very much objects, though they have special rules regarding certain effects that affect them (such as animate dead and raise dead).

Taelas
2010-03-31, 10:18 AM
It is no longer a whole corpse. Putting the head back on through the use of fabricate changes nothing -- you are simply putting the two objects together, not repairing the damage caused. You could not sew the head back on and expect it to work either -- not without extensive microsurgery. Even if that worked, the spine would still be simply fused together, not functional.

The body has to be capable of living for raise dead to work. Even if you read it in the strictest literal sense, and claim the body is "whole" enough for the spell to work, the creature would die instantly, as none of the veins or arteries would be capable of circulating blood to the brain.

Corpses are not objects. I have explained why they are not. I don't see how repeating the explanation does either of us any good.

Lycanthromancer
2010-03-31, 10:21 AM
It is no longer a whole corpse. Putting the head back on through the use of fabricate changes nothing -- you are simply putting the two objects together, not repairing the damage caused. You could not sew the head back on and expect it to work either -- not without extensive microsurgery. Even if that worked, the spine would still be simply fused together, not functional.

The body has to be capable of living for raise dead to work. Even if you read it in the strictest literal sense, and claim the body is "whole" enough for the spell to work, the creature would die instantly, as none of the veins or arteries would be capable of circulating blood to the brain.

Corpses are not objects. I have explained why they are not. I don't see how repeating the explanation does either of us any good.Your 'explanation' amounts to, 'it just is'.

Like I said, could I have a quote? I can quote my end if you like, but can you do so to yours?

Taelas
2010-03-31, 10:27 AM
Your 'explanation' amounts to, 'it just is'.

Like I said, could I have a quote? I can quote my end if you like, but can you do so to yours?

A creature has a Wisdom score and Charisma score. An object does not. We agree this is the difference, yes?

A whole corpse, as per the raise dead spell, is a dead creature, ergo it has a Wisdom score and a Charisma score. It cannot be an object.

Once it no longer qualifies for the raise dead spell, it becomes an object, as per your argument.

Lycanthromancer
2010-03-31, 10:41 AM
A creature has a Wisdom score and Charisma score. An object does not. We agree this is the difference, yes?

A whole corpse, as per the raise dead spell, is a dead creature, ergo it has a Wisdom score and a Charisma score. It cannot be an object.

Once it no longer qualifies for the raise dead spell, it becomes an object, as per your argument.And dead creatures cannot see, hear, taste, touch (and thus has no senses, a la, no Wis), or affect their surroundings more than its simple existence (and thus has no Cha), according to real life evidence, and if RAW doesn't cover anything, it defaults to real life.

And you can still be a creature while being an object: look at creatures using metamorphosis. Or intelligent items.

Just because it used to be a creature doesn't mean it's not now an object.

Taelas
2010-03-31, 10:57 AM
No. A creature cannot be an object and an object cannot be a creature. The definitions are mutually exclusive. A creature has a Wis score and a Cha score; an object does not. Nothing in the rules say a dead creature loses its Wis and Cha scores, therefore it does not, since it has to qualify as a creature as per the raise dead spell.

Animated objects are creatures for as long as the spell is in effect, not objects; they have Wis and Cha scores. Intelligent items are not objects either. They are treated as constructs according to the Dungeon Master's Guide (pg. 268).

The Glyphstone
2010-03-31, 11:03 AM
It is no longer a whole corpse. Putting the head back on through the use of fabricate changes nothing -- you are simply putting the two objects together, not repairing the damage caused. You could not sew the head back on and expect it to work either -- not without extensive microsurgery. Even if that worked, the spine would still be simply fused together, not functional.

The body has to be capable of living for raise dead to work. Even if you read it in the strictest literal sense, and claim the body is "whole" enough for the spell to work, the creature would die instantly, as none of the veins or arteries would be capable of circulating blood to the brain.

Corpses are not objects. I have explained why they are not. I don't see how repeating the explanation does either of us any good.

The problem with this explanation is that it makes non-mutilated bodies un-resurrectable as well if they died from anything other than disease/sickness. If a fighter was killed by a stab to the heart, he would "die instantly" upon being raised, because his heart had been torn to shreds and would be incapable of pumping blood anywhere. Or if he was killed by an angry bear, he'd instantly bleed out from the dozens of claw marks and bite wounds all over his body. Raise Dead needs to heal death-related injuries short of outright mutiliation or dismemberment (Regenerate covers that)...healing magic makes microsurgery irrelevant, let alone magic capable of reawakening the dead.

Personally, I'd say that you would need to use Make Whole, not Fabricate, to repair damage done to a dismembered corpse, since it was one object to begin with that has been 'broken'. If you Fabricate either portion so that it no longer identical beyond superficial differences, it won't be Raise-able any more than casting Flesh to Stone, Stone Shape, and Stone to Flesh will get you a living creature.

Lycanthromancer
2010-03-31, 11:05 AM
No. A creature cannot be an object and an object cannot be a creature. The definitions are mutually exclusive. A creature has a Wis score and a Cha score; an object does not. Nothing in the rules say a dead creature loses its Wis and Cha scores, therefore it does not, since it has to qualify as a creature as per the raise dead spell.

Animated objects are creatures for as long as the spell is in effect, not objects; they have Wis and Cha scores. Intelligent items are not objects either. They are treated as constructs according to the Dungeon Master's Guide (pg. 268).Metamorphosis disagrees: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/metamorphosis.htm) "You can also use this power to assume the form of an inanimate object."

So you take on the 'object' type. You aren't a construct because anyone can become an object via metamorphosis, but only constructs can take the form of other constructs.

Taelas
2010-03-31, 11:10 AM
The problem with this explanation is that it makes non-mutilated bodies un-resurrectable as well if they died from anything other than disease/sickness. If a fighter was killed by a stab to the heart, he would "die instantly" upon being raised, because his heart had been torn to shreds and would be incapable of pumping blood anywhere. Or if he was killed by an angry bear, he'd instantly bleed out from the dozens of claw marks and bite wounds all over his body. Raise Dead needs to heal death-related injuries short of outright mutiliation or dismemberment (Regenerate covers that)...healing magic makes microsurgery irrelevant, let alone magic capable of reawakening the dead.
In normal cases, yes; the spell mentions this -- it heals wounds. But the body must be "whole" in order for this to occur.


Personally, I'd say that you would need to use Make Whole, not Fabricate, to repair damage done to a dismembered corpse, since it was one object to begin with that has been 'broken'. If you Fabricate either portion so that it no longer identical beyond superficial differences, it won't be Raise-able any more than casting Flesh to Stone, Stone Shape, and Stone to Flesh will get you a living creature.
Agreed.

The Glyphstone
2010-03-31, 11:13 AM
Y'know, I probably should have checked the text of Raise Dead before I posted that.:smallyuk:

Now that I think of it, the only problem with the Make Whole (or even Fabricate) solution is turning Raise Dead into a poor man's Resurrection. Assuming you have the entire body, but it's been damaged to the point where Raise Dead cannot function on it (say, decapitated), would it be broken/overpowered to allow Make Whole to restore the corpse, assuming you weren't missing any significant portions, to a state where Raise Dead could bring them back?

Taelas
2010-03-31, 11:18 AM
Metamorphosis disagrees: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/metamorphosis.htm) "You can also use this power to assume the form of an inanimate object."

So you take on the 'object' type. You aren't a construct because anyone can become an object via metamorphosis, but only constructs can take the form of other constructs.

Quite frankly, it doesn't matter whether it is an object or not. Fabricate does not say it only works on objects, it states it does not work on creatures.

Even if you were correct, and it is both a creature and an object, it still does not work.

Regardless, you cannot be both an object as per the type and a creature. The definitions are opposite and mutually exclusive. They cannot both apply to the same thing. It is paradoxical. An object does not have Wis or Cha scores, yet a creature does.

The metamorphosis power states that you retain your senses, thus you are still a creature, regardless of your current form.

Lycanthromancer
2010-03-31, 11:20 AM
Quite frankly, it doesn't matter whether it is an object or not. Fabricate does not say it only works on objects, it states it does not work on creatures.

Even if you were correct, and it is both a creature and an object, it still does not work.

Regardless, you cannot be both an object as per the type and a creature. The definitions are opposite and mutually exclusive. They cannot both apply to the same thing. It is paradoxical. An object does not have Wis or Cha scores, yet a creature does.

The metamorphosis power states that you retain your senses, thus you are still a creature, regardless of your current form.And how many dead animals do you know that retain their senses?

...other than Spam, that is, but that doesn't count.

Taelas
2010-03-31, 11:23 AM
And how many dead animals do you know that retain their senses?

...other than Spam, that is, but that doesn't count.

The reason why a corpse remains a creature is not the same reason that you remain a creature when you become an inanimate object through metamorphosis. The reason is that a corpse qualifies for raise dead as long as it is whole; meaning it is a dead creature.

Really, I don't know how much clearer I can be on this.

jpreem
2010-03-31, 11:24 AM
This whole - whole body thing is ridiculus.:smallbiggrin:
How many stones do you need to make a pile of stones?

Dead stuff is stuff.

Yukitsu
2010-03-31, 11:29 AM
This is the sort of thing that makes me happy that my DM uses common sense.

Lycanthromancer
2010-03-31, 11:46 AM
The reason why a corpse remains a creature is not the same reason that you remain a creature when you become an inanimate object through metamorphosis. The reason is that a corpse qualifies for raise dead as long as it is whole; meaning it is a dead creature.

Really, I don't know how much clearer I can be on this.Yes, and a dead creature is an object. No Wis or Cha scores.

Really, I don't know how much clearer I can be on this.

Taelas
2010-03-31, 11:53 AM
Yes, and a dead creature is an object. No Wis or Cha scores.

Really, I don't know how much clearer I can be on this.
There is no rule that says a dead creature loses its Wis or Cha scores. If it did, the raise dead spell would be rendered invalid (as the corpse would become an object, not a creature), making it is obvious it does not happen.

The definitions of an object and of a creature are mutually exclusive. It is IMPOSSIBLE for them to apply to the same thing. Just as a direction cannot be both up and down at the same time, because they are OPPOSITE, something cannot be both a creature and an object.

jpreem
2010-03-31, 12:47 PM
I see some bold statements there :P

Yuki Akuma
2010-03-31, 12:49 PM
I'd really like you to cite your sources, Szar_Lakol. You seem to enjoy telling people "No. You are wrong." without actually saying anything that isn't your opinion.

The Glyphstone
2010-03-31, 12:52 PM
SL, the core of your argument seems to be;

1) Raise Dead targets a creature (a dead one).
2) Creatures are defined as having Wisdom and Charisma scores.
Therefore,
3) dead creatures must have Wisdom and Charisma scores.
4) Objects do not have Wisdom or Charisma scores.
Therefore,
5) Dead creatures cannot be objects.

Have I summarized accurately?

Trekkin
2010-03-31, 12:59 PM
Creature and object aren't necessarily mutually exclusive; look at warforged. You can treat their armor as an object and as part of a creature, albeit in doing different things. It's assumed to be an object for purposes of enchantment and a creature in that it doesn't have a hardness and hp distinct from the warforged.

Really, it just comes down to what you need it to be at the moment.

And if a direction can't be up and down at the same time, I just lost a LOT of interest in Pandemonium. :smallbiggrin:

Taelas
2010-03-31, 01:06 PM
I'd really like you to cite your sources, Szar_Lakol. You seem to enjoy telling people "No. You are wrong." without actually saying anything that isn't your opinion.

What sources? The definitions of creatures and objects? They're right there in the Monster Manual, under "Nonabilities" in the Glossary, pg. 312. They aren't reprinted in the SRD, I'm afraid.

The Raise Dead spell is, and it targets a dead creature.

The rest is logic.

The_Glyphstone, you are correct.

Yukitsu
2010-03-31, 01:11 PM
There is, unfortunately a branch of logic which states that anything with a particular class of modifier ("fake, previous, soon-to-be") directly negate that they are of that particular class. "Dead" typically falls into that class of modifier. So the second premise is not necessarily true, unless you can demonstrate that a dead creature is the same as a creature without said modifier.

A dead X is just as much an X, I would argue, as a fake X, is an X.

Taelas
2010-03-31, 01:18 PM
Eh, no, it does not. A dead man is still a man. A dead flower is still a flower. It does not fall into that class.

Yukitsu
2010-03-31, 01:24 PM
Now you're making an assertion that can't be backed up by rules or linquistic parlance. Doubly so in this particular case, as "creature" is defined as a living being, particularly an animal, or as an active being in D&D.

A "dead living being" meaning it's a "living being" is obtuse.

Taelas
2010-03-31, 01:26 PM
Hence why it specifies dead creature.

jpreem
2010-03-31, 01:27 PM
Eh, no, it does not. A dead man is still a man. A dead flower is still a flower. It does not fall into that class.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0709.html

I wanted to make a "low-standards" joke and also remembered this strip.

Taelas
2010-03-31, 01:28 PM
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0709.html

I wanted to make a "low-standards" joke and also remembered this strip.

Xykon's undead, though. Teensy bit difference.

Really, I'm not going to continue this discussion. I've said want I wanted to, and the whole subject is rather silly anyway. It's not as if it's going to come up in an actual game.

Yukitsu
2010-03-31, 01:29 PM
Hence why it specifies dead creature.

So you're going to continue asserting that a "dead living being" is a "living being"? Your perogative, but I think it neatly explains why no one agrees with your view.

Taelas
2010-03-31, 01:33 PM
So you're going to continue asserting that a "dead living being" is a "living being"? Your perogative, but I think it neatly explains why no one agrees with your view.

No, I am asserting that a dead creature is still a creature. If I wanted to be silly, I could point out that most dead creatures are quite active -- they're rotting, after all. But this is getting absurd.

jpreem
2010-03-31, 01:40 PM
I suggest lets agree to disagree solution :smallsmile:
We can,t get to those too quickly, otherwise there would not be many threads in this forum or at least they would be terribly short :smallwink:
To each his own. Let Szar DM his dead guys as active as he wants to and for me well the dead are dead.

( IF theyre not undead - and's thats a whole other thing)
PS.
the last thing also means Tsukiko is not necrophiliac ( as much as we now it) but hmm whats a latin word for undead.

Taelas
2010-03-31, 01:42 PM
:P My argument was based on the RAW, not on my personal opinion. It seems to be to be the only way it can work as written.

But it's not going to come up for most people, so it's a silly argument in the first place.

Yukitsu
2010-03-31, 01:50 PM
No, I am asserting that a dead creature is still a creature. If I wanted to be silly, I could point out that most dead creatures are quite active -- they're rotting, after all. But this is getting absurd.

Unfortunately, in standard language, the terms are identical. If you assert a dead creature is a creature, you are in fact asserting that a "dead living thing" is a "living thing." Or in D&D terms, a "dead individual who had a positive charisma and wisdom statistic" is the same as an "individual with a positive charisma and wisdom statistic." For that to be true, you're committed to the absurd RAW notion that people who die are still playable characters without the need to be raised from the dead.

As an aside, I don't agree that a "dead man" is still a man. A dead homo sapiens being the same as a homo sapiens I would agree with, but a "man" includes a gender identification, which relies on more than the body.

jpreem
2010-03-31, 01:52 PM
This thread needs some "thats what she said"-s in it.

Taelas
2010-03-31, 01:59 PM
Unfortunately, in standard language, the terms are identical. If you assert a dead creature is a creature, you are in fact asserting that a "dead living thing" is a "living thing." Or in D&D terms, a "dead individual who had a positive charisma and wisdom statistic" is the same as an "individual with a positive charisma and wisdom statistic." For that to be true, you're committed to the absurd RAW notion that people who die are still playable characters without the need to be raised from the dead.
No. All non-playable characters have Wisdom and Charisma scores. It is not a requirement to be a playable character.

Urgh, I just can't seem to stop discussing this. Last post, I promise.

Yukitsu
2010-03-31, 02:02 PM
That's rather badly missing the point. Playable character, nonplayable character, DMPC. Whatever. Your logic still requires you stand by their ability to act after dying.

Irreverent Fool
2010-03-31, 02:50 PM
SL, no offense, but your credibility is harmed when you say you're not going to continue a discussion and then do so anyway.

Even if your definitions are correct, simply severing a head would be enough to reduce a dead body from a creature to two objects. Since this is unnecessarily arbitrary, I find it unlikely that this situation/dilemma would come up in regular play. Since one can make leather from skins with craft skills and one gathers skins from corpses, I don't see any reason to disallow fabricate from creating leather from dead bodies (assuming they're not yet skinned). I do agree that the 'joined at the hip' example probably wouldn't work, since that doesn't really seem to fulfill the definition of 'intact', though it would be a relatively simple matter to achieve the same result through slightly different means.


That's rather badly missing the point. Playable character, nonplayable character, DMPC. Whatever. Your logic still requires you stand by their ability to act after dying.

The "dead as an undefined state" discussion is pretty old. I think in most cases it is rendered null by the fact that creatures fall unconscious at some point and "unconscious" is more or less defined.

Since this argument is clearly not going to go anywhere, I'm going to talk about something else now.

On topic:
With enough ranks in Craft (sculpting), I imagine one might be able to fabricate a dead body into something that appears to be a turkey or roast pig. Excellent for games of "I made you eat your fallen allies!".

obnoxious
sig

Ranos
2010-04-14, 03:38 AM
Oh hey, just adding some water to the mill :
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/intelligentItems.htm

Both objects and creatures.

taltamir
2010-04-14, 04:10 AM
Is there ANOTHER use for fabricate besides fabricating corpses / things from corpses? (because all DMs break the economy breaking ones; besides, desecrating corpses is fun) Heck spells like stone to flesh and a few others actually specify what happens when you play with corpses :P.

Oh I am just kidding... OP, you win an internet cookie :P

So... how "exotic" can you make a corpse with fabricate before it no longer qualifies to be raised as an undead?

Can you take the corpse of an orphan, fabricate a coat out of it, and then turn the coat into a vampire for a vampiric coat?

Darth Stabber
2010-04-14, 01:05 PM
I'm quite glad that I make my players play good characters (or at least neutral), making this entire thread a mood point, since they can't do it.

Now for a pun I have been waiting to make.

If dead bodies are objects, does that mean the serial killer has a habit of Objectifying women?

Wow, now I am ashamed of myself.

Criptfeind
2010-04-14, 03:14 PM
First post yay.

What many of you that are arguing against Szar_Lakol for seems to boil down to corpse are objects and they don't have wis or chr and they as a person don't have a existence... in the real world yes, but what you seem to be forgetting is that in DnD whenever you die, whoever you are you go to a different plane and become a little soul outsider guy. The fact is that dead people basically have two body, their old one and their new one, the only thing is they don't get input from the old one.

"But cript!" you say "outsiders do not always get new body!"

...

And what spell does not work on outsiders?:smalltongue:

Set
2010-04-14, 03:40 PM
Now, a corpse is technically an object, what with no Wis or Cha scores, and as such, dead bodies are valid targets for fabricate and the psionic version thereof.

'Well, as long as he's dead anyway, I might as well make some modifications before you ressurect him...'

'What?'

'He told me he wanted me to turn him into a troglodyte, because of the hard scales. I'll just save myself a lot of trouble and give him an exo-skeleton, made from his own sculpted bone. The ressurection will repair the missing internal bones, and he'll be good to go, with a bony exoskeleton! Ooh, I'll make bone spurs that act like armor spikes, while I'm at it, and perhaps some retractable foot-long bone-spurs that come from his palms, for when he gets disarmed. Let me just make some heal checks and craft - armorsmith checks to get this right, wouldn't want to mess things up and leave him a grotesque mewling wrack of ravaged flesh and bone, unable to move...'

'Like the last guy you tried this on?'

'That was deliberate! I meant to turn him into a fancy coat-rack! An artist is never understood in his own time...'

taltamir
2010-04-14, 05:46 PM
btw... why do you actually need a spell for that?

the WOTC core content already has a bunch of tomes bound in human skin, wands made from human bones...

heck there is a nunchucks made from human bones in weapons of legacy...

Manufacturing goods from humans is a staple of evil in fantasy and was even done IRL.

Prime32
2010-04-14, 06:46 PM
I'm now imagining a guy who goes around fabricating corpses into the image of a lost loved one in an attempt to bring them back. Like Mr. Upside-Down-Head from the first FMA anime.

This has interesting implications if combined with clone. Don't like your nose? Clone yourself, use fabricate to change the nose, then commit suicide. Or just freak people out with "you-trees".

And no-one brought up permanently PAOing corpses into living creatures? Or Haunt Shifting/Psion Sandwiching corpses?

Strategos
2010-04-14, 07:40 PM
One more proof I found while Reading Races of the Wild of all places, the spell Dust to Dust states, after removing the flavour text:
A corpse or undead creature struck by the ray takes 1d8 points of damage per two caster levels (maximum 10d8). Any Large or smaller creature reduced to 0 or fewer hit points by this spell is disintegrated, leaving behind only a trace of fine dust.

The ray has no effect on objects that are not corpses; thus, the creature’s equipment is unaffected.

A creature that makes a successful Fortitude takes half damage.

So, feel free to come up with whatever wierd and freakish corpse related project that strikes your fancy :smallbiggrin:. I for one intend to use this information to create the Ghost Ship (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tt0hml2j43E), but more of an actual ship.

The Glyphstone
2010-04-14, 07:51 PM
One more proof I found while Reading Races of the Wild of all places, the spell Dust to Dust states, after removing the flavour text:

So, feel free to come up with whatever wierd and freakish corpse related project that strikes your fancy :smallbiggrin:. I for one intend to use this information to create the Ghost Ship (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tt0hml2j43E), but more of an actual ship.

"I swear, if you make me sail a ship made of hobgoblin corpses across the ocean, I will find a way to make you pay..."

Slayn82
2010-04-14, 09:07 PM
I'll just give my contribution in the current discussion about dead bodies not being objects (something that i disagree).

I think magic jar effects could bring an interesting angle about where exactly the mental atributes of an individual reside (the subject's soul), and there is enought information on the printed core books about what happens with the soul of a deceased person in D&D. Ergo, deceased bodies have no mental atributes.

Also, i think in context, wearing dragon scale's fullplate armor is a poor idea at high levels. On another angle, a wielded object has the saves of its owner.

Now, as an personal anecdote, i did this once. Our party had fought a bunch of orcs, and my wizard turned them all into supplies, as rope, tents and sausages (removing all the evidences of them). Then, we left the "supplies" behind for the enemy to capture.

Magicyop
2010-04-14, 09:39 PM
I can't stop cracking up at this thread. This is the best thing ever. I wonder if I can convince members of the party to let me give them, say, a couple extra arms or legs. All I need is to murder them horrifically, shape them, and then get them raised. Or, as someone mentioned, Living Bonsai. "While you were under, I made you into a tree." What if you fabricate armor out of corpses, then raise dead? Do you get living armor?

Also, I thought that the response to Polymorph Any Object + Fabricate cracked me up. The image of a party member wearing a sweater, and then suddenly having a wolverine wrapped around them is hilarious. Heck, you could even dismiss Polymorph Any Object. Imagine the fun!