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TripperdeCleric
2010-03-31, 12:13 AM
First off I would like to say this is off from Birdmans Idea of the Morbidly Obese and his tactics.

Now I have an idea that came from reading his...what If I was extremely small?

I mean like I could be eaten...do you die when you are eaten? Or could I be an organ stabber?

I know the exit would suck...but in general how small can I get?


On another note...any other tactics with a small small person?

Starscream
2010-03-31, 12:16 AM
Well, any character of Small size or smaller can take the Confound the Big Folk tactical feat from RoW. It's pretty awesome, and one of the main reasons I prefer to play halfling rogues, even though humans are usually better at everything.

TripperdeCleric
2010-03-31, 12:19 AM
What is that book? and what does the feat do?

arguskos
2010-03-31, 12:20 AM
Well, any character of Small size or smaller can take the Confound the Big Folk tactical feat from RoW. It's pretty awesome, and one of the main reasons I prefer to play halfling rogues, even though humans are usually better at everything.
Dude, Hengyokai Sparrow Warlock with Confound the Big Folk. Proceed to giggle madly.

TripperdeCleric
2010-03-31, 12:21 AM
So the idea is not a dead one and has been used before I see.

arguskos
2010-03-31, 12:23 AM
So the idea is not a dead one and has been used before I see.
Hell yeah. Hengyokai (Sparrow) is like the go-to race for Confound the Big Folk silliness. Hit up Races of the Wild for Confound the Big Folk (IIRC) and Oriental Adventures for Hengyokai. Proceed to giggle.

BIRDMANﺕ
2010-03-31, 12:24 AM
Well to be honest my thread was about really really really really fat characters not necessarily big. but yeah tiny characters definitely can be useful. Nice pranksters and stealth... also in a large group they can be pretty silly

Like that one scene in army of darkness.... or if you go for an Anorexic like character he could be so skinny the guards can be all "Stop Right there Criminal Scum!" and then you get locked up but since your so anorexic skinny you actually fit in between the bars!

but your talking about tiny. Tiny things very useful I can see... despite being easily eaten and having a very interesting set of enemies to fight. (You thought housecats were a danger to the aspiring first level wizard wait till your smaller than a mouse!)

Kylarra
2010-03-31, 12:26 AM
Pixie warlock! invisible laser shooting sprites

sofawall
2010-03-31, 12:26 AM
DC 80 escape Artist check to climb up someone's rear
Enlarge person.
???
Profit!

Also, gives a chance for the old rectum/killed 'em line.

BIRDMANﺕ
2010-03-31, 12:29 AM
DC 80 escape Artist check to climb up someone's rear
Enlarge person.
???
Profit!

Also, gives a chance for the old rectum/killed 'em line.

OOOOOOOH! thats gotta hurt!

TripperdeCleric
2010-03-31, 12:30 AM
DC 80 escape Artist check to climb up someone's rear
Enlarge person.
???
Profit!

Also, gives a chance for the old rectum/killed 'em line.


Oh thats just nasty...


What about if I went with skinny and tiny?

I mean I could crawl into your ear...my biggest enemy would be bugs/cats/stomach acid...and the all famous rain/snow

BIRDMANﺕ
2010-03-31, 12:31 AM
Oh thats just nasty...


What about if I went with skinny and tiny?

I mean I could crawl into your ear...my biggest enemy would be bugs/cats/stomach acid...and the all famous rain/snow

yeah you could crawl into ears and all of your enemies would be everything from "Honey I shrunk the kids"

TripperdeCleric
2010-03-31, 12:32 AM
yeah you could crawl into ears and all of your enemies would be everything from "Honey I shrunk the kids"


That and a powerful spy and a flea sized attacker..making it alot of fun...would need a high jump skill. Wonder if I can use a roach as a mount...

BIRDMANﺕ
2010-03-31, 12:34 AM
That and a powerful spy and a flea sized attacker..making it alot of fun...would need a high jump skill. Wonder if I can use a roach as a mount...

well that all depends if you can tame it.... a bee would be a good mount too

TripperdeCleric
2010-03-31, 12:35 AM
well that all depends if you can tame it.... a bee would be a good mount too


Hmmm..I wonder if i could...maybe i should make a mini druid and have fun with that...

BIRDMANﺕ
2010-03-31, 12:36 AM
Hmmm..I wonder if i could...maybe i should make a mini druid and have fun with that...

Yes a tiny druid that can summon bees or wildshape into tiny insects as well...

Actually... a flea for a mount would be AWESOME.

sofawall
2010-03-31, 12:38 AM
This was an oldpost I found that I copied into notepad a long while back. I just found it:

Extremely Tight Space: This is the DC for getting through a space when one’s head shouldn’t even be able to fit; this can be as small as 2 inches square for Medium-size creatures. Halve this limit for each size category less than Medium-size; double it for each size category greater than Medium-size. If the space is long, such as in a chimney, multiple checks may be called for.
See, I'm sure they were thinking of sliding between the bars in a cage, or moving up a chimney, except it was pointed out, on the thread which exists no longer, that one could therefore use such a skill check to fit inside someone's arse. Indeed, the entire party could fit themselves in the backside of a hireling/captive/monster that they hit with a Hold Monster spell, and then choose the right moment to leap out, surprising all foes.

Or using one of the "You grow. If you are in a container or room that you can't fit in, make a STR check to break it open." abilities. Possibly while wearing full plate.

A CharOp board thread was made to try getting +70 (so as to take 10) as early as possible, with ideal abilities to use once there, but I don't like the chances of it not being deleted.

TripperdeCleric
2010-03-31, 12:38 AM
Yes a tiny druid that can summon bees or wildshape into tiny insects as well...

Actually... a flea for a mount would be AWESOME.



Im going to work on it...how do i achieve such tiny size though?

BIRDMANﺕ
2010-03-31, 12:42 AM
Im going to work on it...how do i achieve such tiny size though?

well there is clearly races of course...

Brownies tend to be very very tiny... (no not the chocolate ones! :smalltongue:

Starscream
2010-03-31, 12:43 AM
Im going to work on it...how do i achieve such tiny size though?

There aren't many tiny races, but a few do exist. Imp, Petal, and so on. Then there are a few that can be tiny at will, like Tibbits.

Then, if you want to go even smaller, cast reduce person and become diminutive. I think there's an item somewhere that let's you always be under the effects of that spell. I forget what it's called, but I think it's from Lords of Madness.

TripperdeCleric
2010-03-31, 12:45 AM
where is that race that can change smaller at will? ill try and hunt that item down.

BIRDMANﺕ
2010-03-31, 12:46 AM
where is that race that can change smaller at will? ill try and hunt that item down.

It's the dragon compendium and its almost smaller at will. basiclly its a werehousecat kinda cute, and kinda creepy at the same time

TripperdeCleric
2010-03-31, 12:47 AM
Ill hunter it down and try this spy idea.

BIRDMANﺕ
2010-03-31, 12:49 AM
Ill hunter it down and try this spy idea.

yeah dragon compendium isnt a bad book. its basiclly all this popular stuff from dragon magazine. I personally like the jester class the best from it

TripperdeCleric
2010-03-31, 12:52 AM
I dont know just looking for a fun idea for later in my life once I join another game or this one ends.

Starscream
2010-03-31, 12:52 AM
It's the dragon compendium and its almost smaller at will. basiclly its a werehousecat kinda cute, and kinda creepy at the same time

Yeah, you can become a housecat at will.

Downsides, though. As a cat you can't cast spells with somatic components, and wielding weapons is out of the question.

Also, you are a Monstrous Humanoid, and so can't be affected by Reduce Person to become even smaller. Reduce Animal is still probably on the table, but since you can't cast for yourself in that form, you'd need someone to do it for you.

TripperdeCleric
2010-03-31, 12:55 AM
Yeah, you can become a housecat at will.

Downsides, though. As a cat you can't cast spells with somatic components, and wielding weapons is out of the question.

Also, you are a Monstrous Humanoid, and so can't be affected by Reduce Person to become even smaller. Reduce Animal is still probably on the table, but since you can't cast for yourself in that form, you'd need someone to do it for you.


Whats another choice then?

Starscream
2010-03-31, 01:21 AM
Whats another choice then?

Well, I've looked it up, and there is indeed a magic item in LoM that can help. The Ring of Reduction costs 20K and can reduce the size of any intelligent creature, regardless of type. So combine with any tiny sized race and enjoy.

TripperdeCleric
2010-03-31, 01:27 AM
Well, I've looked it up, and there is indeed a magic item in LoM that can help. The Ring of Reduction costs 20K and can reduce the size of any intelligent creature, regardless of type. So combine with any tiny sized race and enjoy.


Can you wear 2 of these for combined effect? Or even 4 if you have wear extra rings?


On another note..Im kinda likeing Brownie

Starscream
2010-03-31, 01:38 AM
Can you wear 2 of these for combined effect? Or even 4 if you have wear extra rings?

I seriously doubt it. There's also the Hengeyokai option. A sparrow is already Fine, which is basically as low as you can go within the rules.

GreyVulpine
2010-03-31, 01:41 AM
Tiny Von BigMcLargeHuge (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6428.0)

aaand the relavant post of the DC 80 escape artist build (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2287.msg72399#msg72399).

TripperdeCleric
2010-03-31, 01:45 AM
Tiny Von BigMcLargeHuge (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6428.0)

aaand the relavant post of the DC 80 escape artist build (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2287.msg72399#msg72399).

thank you very much

Leon
2010-03-31, 01:49 AM
Give the foe a face full of heid

Heliomance
2010-03-31, 03:56 AM
Nah, Hengoyokai isn't the go-to for Confund the Big Folk silliness, gnome is. After all, I may be tiny, but you're dead! (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872846/I_May_Be_Tiny,_But_Youre_Dead:_the_other,_melee_Ki ller_Gnome,_for_your_pleasure.)

TripperdeCleric
2010-03-31, 04:09 AM
Nah, Hengoyokai isn't the go-to for Confund the Big Folk silliness, gnome is. After all, I may be tiny, but you're dead! (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872846/I_May_Be_Tiny,_But_Youre_Dead:_the_other,_melee_Ki ller_Gnome,_for_your_pleasure.)


gnome is the winner?

Eldan
2010-03-31, 06:54 AM
Very likely not what you are looking for, and certainly outside of any PC except Pun-pun, but one of the deity abilites allows you to assume any size, down to the size of a grain of sand. Which, probably, can then still be combined with that ring.

jiriku
2010-03-31, 10:20 AM
The Giantbane tactical feat from CW complements Confound the Big Folk. Kobolds can count as tiny when it suits them to do so.

Ishcumbeebeeda
2010-03-31, 11:19 AM
There's a book out there called "Bastards and Bloodlines" from Green Ronin Publishing that has a race called Trixie. One of the racial abilities is to become diminutive as a full round action, no limit on uses. (IIRC the LA is +3 though, and when a my fiance played it we thought it really should only be a 1 or maybe 2, but, then again, her character wasn't optimized at all, let alone around the idea of being able to be so small.)

EpicEvokerElf
2010-03-31, 11:43 AM
The killer gnome really does win.

BIRDMANﺕ
2010-03-31, 03:27 PM
The killer gnome really does win.

Yep. Gnomes are probably the most underrated race ever

TripperdeCleric
2010-03-31, 03:29 PM
Yep. Gnomes are probably the most underrated race ever


I might put some time into the race and idea later today...

Darrin
2010-03-31, 10:37 PM
The killer gnome really does win.

Only against targets that are medium-sized or larger.

There are two tiny-sized races with no LA:

Jermlaine (MM2), they make decent druids if they survive long enough to get Wildshape.

Muckdweller (Serpent Kingdoms), much more playable stats, they make interesting warlocks and dragonfire adepts.

Hengeyokai (Oriental Adventures) also have several forms in the smaller sizes:

Badger (tiny), Burrow 10'
Carp (diminuative), Swim 10'
Cat (tiny)
Crab (diminuative), NA +1
Hare (tiny)
Monkey (tiny), Climb 30'
Rat (tiny), Climb 15'
Sparrow (fine), Fly 50'
Weasel (tiny), Climb 20'

Those also offer hybrid forms, that have similar movement modes or other special abilities.

Tibbits (Dragon Compendium) have also been mentioned.

Once you get tiny-sized or below, you're going to have problems with melee attacks because your reach is now zero, and you can only attack another creature by entering it's space, which provokes an AoO. There are a few methods around this, such as a high Tumble score, but it may take a while before you can consistently hit a DC 25. Use Martial Study (Desert Wind) or the Cityscape Web Enhancement "Skilled City Dweller" ACF to pick up Tumble as a class skill. Confound the Big Folk also helps, but the annoying 10 ranks of Tumble prereq means unless you blow two feats on Favored + Primary Contact, you can't get the feat until 12th level. Abberation Blood + Inhuman Reach can fix the reach problem. Invisibility and Hide checks (you get a +4 bonus on Hide checks for each size you're smaller than medium) may also help.

If your tinyish character is using ranged attacks or area effects (Warlock, Dragonfire Adept), then this isn't so much a problem, although you may have to be careful triggering AoOs.

absolmorph
2010-04-01, 03:31 AM
The breath weapon from a DFA isn't affected by small size, is it?
Because I just got a hilarious mental image.

Redshirt Army
2010-04-01, 09:16 AM
Wasn't there a flaw that made you one size category smaller? :smallconfused:

Lemme check...