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TheLonelyScribe
2010-03-31, 07:59 AM
I have very recently upgraded to 4e (as in very recently, some of the books have yet to arrive), and am very pleased, on the whole. The only problem I have found so far is that there are no rules for characters that do not want to live a life of violence! There aren't any NPC classes or profession skills, and all powers, except for a select few, are combat-orientated.

This thread is dedicated to fixing this problem, or pointing out bits in the rules that I've missed (like I said, I'm new to 4e.

The first reparation (that of skills) is easy, simply draft in the Craft and Profession skills from previous editions and leave them basically unchanged, simply changing the DC of certain tasks as appropriate.

The others are a little less simple, but I'll establish some goals.

a) Create a class or classes for the commoner, expert and aristocrat (perhaps all one class with different builds?)

b) Make slightly weaker versions of fighters, rouges, clerics and wizards to represent people who have had just a little training, or children (the toned-down cleric might be a good choice for your average priest, like a commoner but granted a few special powers for their faithfulness, and the demi-wizard might make a good apprentice)

c) Create non-combat powers of every level for NPCs who are powerful but peaceful.

Ultimately, this thread should become a good reference points for DMs making games where interaction with non-adventuring NPCs is common.

Corporate M
2010-03-31, 02:52 PM
I'd say pretty much they could remain the same sept have to be minions for the purpose of determining effectivness...

Commoners=Any primal class but now is a minion
Warriors=Any martial class but now is a minion
Magewright=Any arcane class but now is a minion
Adept=Any divine class but now is a minion
Aristocrat=Any psionic class but now is a minion


Infact, I could see this even being done for a gritty npc campaign. Where healing surge grants temporary HP to have some chance of surviving. (But not alot) Sense healing surges normally function as recovering 1/4th of your total HP. Instead they will function as granting you a number of temporary HP equal to what your class would've gained as an HP bonus every level after first+constitution mod. Here's an example. Your npc warrior (fighter) gains 5 hp after level one. He has 18 constitution. So his healing surge would grant him 9 temporary HP.

Constitution no longer effects your total HP score either. So instead, npc classes can use a number of healing surges per encounter equal to their constitution modifier+1. Using a healing surge now uses up a minor action. (Any number of them) So that npc warrior decides to just use all of his at once. The end result is at the start of combat he has temporary HP of 36. This is is only minmally higher then a level 1 PC fighter would be. And by level 2 it already becomes downgraded.


So in essence, npc classes are not classes, but rather a template that turns you into a minion with the added benefit of using healing surges as temporary HP for overcoming damage.

Rigon
2010-03-31, 04:21 PM
-craft and professions: i see no point. giving the NPCs skill checks for them to do in their peaceful time seems like a total waste of a time.


items of value => Quest reward/Shopping/Dungeon loot
magical item enhancements => Rituals.

-As for the "weaker classes" part, that is far away from necessary.
The DM and MM make it simple. Get a monster of the proper level rename/refluff their abilities (or replace them with proper powers).


child => minion
wizard/warlock/archer => artillery monster
rouge => skirmisher monster/lurker monster
fighter/paladin => soldier/brute monster
classes with buffs or area effects => leader monster

TheLonelyScribe
2010-04-01, 02:40 AM
That was really helpful! Like I said, I'm new to this edition of the game (and am still missing some of my books!) so forgive me for my ignorance.

Once I do get the full set of books, so as to avoid any solutions in obvious places, I'll come back and try making some non-combat spells and abilities.

Yakk
2010-04-01, 10:41 AM
NPCs do not, in general, use PC classes in 4e.

Even NPCs built using PC classes use different rules, and (for the most part) most people consider building a "normal monster" and flavouring with PC powers to be a better route (or not even using PC powers).

Level in 4e reflects, for PCs, where they are on the exponential power graph. Every 2-3 levels, the power of a PC doubles (really: have a PC face an even-level monster a half-dozen times in a row. Now have them face the same monster 3 levels later, and check how little resources the PC used in the second instance... it should be less than half, if the PC is played well.)

Monster level (and role) is a measure of how dangerous, in combat the monster is to a PC. If you are within 3 levels of a PC, it is pretty damn reliable.

Level, by default, doesn't exist in game (that much), other than at a few places as a proxy for power level (see magic circle). So a grandmaster smith might be trivial to defeat in combat, thus is a low level smith.

To model opponents who are not individually any challenge at all, 4e provides minions. To model opponents who require huge numbers to become a moderate challenge, use the swarm rules (a swarm of peasants might be a 4x4 level 10 normal monster).

...

As a previous poster noted, rather than build an NPC by taking a toned-down PC class, instead you build a skirmisher or lurker monster for their combat stats. You can also use this to determine, roughly, how good they should be at combat-related skills (and even non-combat related skills).

Now, if you want a deeper non-combat game, there are a number of approaches.

First, backgrounds can be key. A character could request having a background of "blacksmith", and you can work out between you and the character what that means in-game. It might mean that the PC finding raw materials rather than magic items, and being able to forge raw materials into magic weapons. And then the PC goes into a Paragon path that involves scribing runes of power on weapons (the Runepriest, for example, has such a paragon path).

Second, you could extend the non-combat game of 4e. Give players "trumps" that are non-combat usable abilities that are strong enough to change plot. Ie, a wizard might be a Portalmancer, which:
A> Lets them lock doors and portals with an Arcana Check as a standard action.

B> Lets them use Arcana to pick locks/break down doors as a standard action

C> For every round they repeat the above check, they get a +1 to their roll, cumulating at +10 after a minute.

The above is somewhat useful in combat, but mainly useful out of combat.

If you hand out such trumps at a rate of 1 every 5 levels or so (with paragon and epic trumps being ridiculously better), you can create a more rich out-of-combat game.

The standard 4e balance assumes that skills are used for the above. If you don't want to have a trump system, instead you can scale up what skills can do.

A DC 20 check lets you pull off a heroic-level skill feat, DC 30 a paragon-level skill feat, and DC 40 an epic-level skill feat. Maybe charge then an action point to try.

A heroic level skill trick is, MacGuiver, John McClain, Sherlock Holmes or Jack from 24 level of badassery (ie, something you could, while watching a movie, be convinced that a human could do)

A paragon level skill trick is wushu level: walking on leaves, dodging the raindrops, causing an earthquake that over a day flattens a city, etc.

An epic level skill trick is godly -- jumping from mountain-top to mountain-top to keep up with a dragon, etc. Think Exalted.