Theurgist Villain - HELP PLEASE

[Adrayll]

I've suddenly found myself running a D&D 3.5 campaign, and have never DM'd before. I've got a campaign starting to be mapped out, and wanted a recurring villain who will level ahead of the players and be a nemesis. I know what levels I want him to have, unfortunately I need suggestions on everything else. Any help anyone is will to give would be really great.

Necromancer 1 (4HP)
Necromancer 2 (8HP)
Necromancer 2/Cleric 1 (16HP)
Necromancer 3/Cleric 1 (20HP)
Necromancer 4/Cleric 1 (24HP)
Necromancer 5/Cleric 1 (28HP)
Necromancer 5/Cleric 2 (36HP)
Necromancer 5/Cleric 3 (44HP)
Necromancer 5/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 1 (48HP)
Necromancer 5/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 2 (52HP)
Necromancer 5/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 3 (56HP)
Necromancer 5/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 4 (60HP)
Necromancer 5/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 5 (64HP)
Necromancer 5/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 6 (68HP)
Necromancer 5/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 7 (72HP)
Necromancer 5/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 8 (76HP)
Necromancer 5/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 9 (80HP)
Necromancer 5/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 10 (84HP)
Necromancer 5/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 10/ Hierophant 1 (92HP)
Necromancer 5/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 10/ Hierophant 2 (100HP)


That's the progression I want. His sorcery spells will focus on necromancy, but I have no idea for the Divine spells. I know he's gonna have a massive buttload of spells. Pretty much I need race, abilities, items (as he progresses) and that sort of thing.

[Optimystik]

Your main goal with MT is to enter it as early as possible - that way, you aren't lagging behind the other casters, and you have a good shot at 9th-level spells (which your proposed build doesn't get.)

Read this handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3092.0) for legal ways to get into Mystic Theurge early.

[Sinfire Titan]

Why Theurge? The idea behind it is that you have more spells/day, and thus more endurance. If it's a villian, you'll be lucky to get 2 rounds worth of actions out of him (much less two full encounters). Really, Theurges are more for PCs than NPCs, especially considering premade modules like the World's Largest Dungeon.


If anything, refluffing a Psion into a Necromancer (and then using Astral Construct to "create undead" on the spot) is going to be much more efficient than using a Theurge build of any kind.

[Adrayll]

>.< I accidentally posted this in homebrew, and moved it here, so I'm getting answers from two places. What I want is a caster who can create and control huge amounts of undead. I saw theurge as a way to do that by using both divine and arcane. Any way to do it better?

EDIT: I'm trying to avoid adding in things like psionics, to keep things relatively simple.

[AmberVael]

Dread Necromancer, from Heroes of Horror. It's like a sorcerer, but with a ton of awesome necromantic stuff.

[jiriku]

Since he's a recurring villain, you want to focus on survivability at the expense of burst damage. He needs lots of hit points, strong saves, good armor class, and a miss chance. He'll also benefit from being able to take multiple actions per round or use spells that affect multiple targets, because he'll usually be taking heat from several PCs at once. Strong detection skills are also helpful.

Skills (unfortunately these are mostly cross-class):
Balance, Concentration, Listen, Spellcraft, Spot, Tumble

Feats:
Improved Toughness

Gear:
Ring of protection
vest of resistance
amulet of health
healing or greater healing armor enchantment
any item granting the ability to teleport

Spells
mirror image
displacement
greater invisibility
false life
freedom of movement
magic vestment
conviction
heal
close wounds

Edit: You might consider taking the Tomb-Tainted Soul feat (LM), which will make your BBEG heal from negative energy. Then you can prep harm instead of heal, and use it either to attack or defend.

You want lots of undead pets and bodyguards. Blasphemes and a slaymate would be good choices (both from LM).

Edit Edit: Offensively, focus on debuffs to keep the players down so they don't demolish the BBEG in one round. AoE debuffs like fear, waves of fatigue, and waves of exhaustion are good. You can modify them with the black lore of moil feat (CA) and slashing gauntlets (MiC) so they deal some damage too. This makes them multi-threat attack/debuffs.

[Sinfire Titan]

>.< I accidentally posted this in homebrew, and moved it here, so I'm getting answers from two places. What I want is a caster who can create and control huge amounts of undead. I saw theurge as a way to do that by using both divine and arcane. Any way to do it better?

Dread Necromancer, from Heroes of Horror. Far more efficient than a Mystic Theurge (because the PrC doesn't advance your HD cap for Controlling Undead).

Edit: Ninjas ninjas everywhere, and my Smeargles are completely useless against them...

[Adrayll]

So, just straight Dread Necromancer, or would there be something more efficient?

[Sinfire Titan]

So, just straight Dread Necromancer, or would there be something more efficient?

Straight DN is very viable. Some like PrCing out at 8th level, but it's good to 20th for most purposes.

[Adrayll]

excuse my ignorance, but what is PrC?

[Sinfire Titan]

excuse my ignorance, but what is PrC?

The acronym for Prestige Class.

[Adrayll]

Since he's a recurring villain, you want to focus on survivability at the expense of burst damage. He needs lots of hit points, strong saves, good armor class, and a miss chance. He'll also benefit from being able to take multiple actions per round or use spells that affect multiple targets, because he'll usually be taking heat from several PCs at once. Strong detection skills are also helpful.

Skills (unfortunately these are mostly cross-class):
Balance, Concentration, Listen, Spellcraft, Spot, Tumble

Feats:
Improved Toughness

Gear:
Ring of protection
vest of resistance
amulet of health
healing or greater healing armor enchantment
any item granting the ability to teleport

Spells
mirror image
displacement
greater invisibility
false life
freedom of movement
magic vestment
conviction
heal
close wounds

Edit: You might consider taking the Tomb-Tainted Soul feat (LM), which will make your BBEG heal from negative energy. Then you can prep harm instead of heal, and use it either to attack or defend.

You want lots of undead pets and bodyguards. Blasphemes and a slaymate would be good choices (both from LM).

Edit Edit: Offensively, focus on debuffs to keep the players down so they don't demolish the BBEG in one round. AoE debuffs like fear, waves of fatigue, and waves of exhaustion are good. You can modify them with the black lore of moil feat (CA) and slashing gauntlets (MiC) so they deal some damage too. This makes them multi-threat attack/debuffs.

Uhh... there's like 8 acronyms I don't know there. I'm sorry I'm so new at this, but can you have patience and explain these for me?

[Sinfire Titan]

PCs=Player Characters

LM= Libris Mortis

BBEG= Big Bad Evil Guy

AoE= Area of Effect.

CA= There's two meanings, but knowing the feat in question, he means CArc, or Complete Arcane. The other book with the same abreviation is Complete Adventurer, or CAdv.

MiC= Magic Item Compendium. One of the 5 most recommended books for 3.5.

[jiriku]

Sure!

List of acronyms I used:
PCs = player characters
LM = Libris Mortis (an undead-themed sourcebook)
BBEG = big, bad evil guy (generic term for a recurring villain or end-boss)
AoE = Area of Effect (any blast effect that affects multiple nearby targets)
CA = Complete Arcane (an arcane caster-themed sourcebook)
MiC = Magic Item Compendium (a compilation of magic items)

Edit: Let's add another term, ninja. In this context, it's someone who completes a post with the same information as yours, appearing after you hit the respond button but before you save your own post. Said post appears before yours and renders yours redundant, but you never see it there until after you've posted. I'm looking at you, Sinfire. :smallbiggrin:

Edit Edit: If you don't have access to Libris Mortis, you could replace the blaspheme with an advanced ghast and the slaymate with...umm, the Empower Spell feat?

[Adrayll]

Awesome. So now that I know what my villain is, how should I work out encounters with him? As in, The CR, as he will be accompanied by undead obviously. Should it just be his level + the CR of whatever his undead are = EL?

EDIT: He won't be fighting to the death. Will that affect it?

[Sinfire Titan]

Awesome. So now that I know what my villain is, how should I work out encounters with him? As in, The CR, as he will be accompanied by undead obviously. Should it just be his level + the CR of whatever his undead are = EL?

EDIT: He won't be fighting to the death. Will that affect it?

1: The CR for a Dread Necromancer using Summoned Undead is just equal to the Dread Necromancer's character level. If he has commanded Undead, +1 to CR for every 2 undead that could threaten the party considerably (basically, if the Undead being controlled are within 2 CRs of the party). If the undead are considerably more dangerous than they should be (4 or more CRs above the party's level), use the Undead's CR and have the Dread Necromancer be a side-character in the actual fight (in other words, have him sit out of range).

2: If he isn't trying to kill them, the PCs are going to kill him unless they need him alive for some reason. Never underestimate your players and their ability/willingness to kill things and take it's loot.


Let's add another term, ninja. In this context, it's someone who completes a post with the same information as yours, appearing after you hit the respond button but before you save your own post. Said post appears before yours and renders yours redundant, but you never see it there until after you've posted. I'm looking at you, Sinfire.

:smallbiggrin:

[Adrayll]

I meant he will not be fighting to his own death. He will run away before getting killed does this change CR?

[Sinfire Titan]

I meant he will not be fighting to his own death. He will run away before getting killed does this change CR?

No. That just means he has a brain. They still get XP for overcoming the encounter.

Tip: Have him start a fighting retreat as soon as the PCs breach his Undead Wall. If you wait until his HP runs lower than 50% before he starts retreating, he's got very poor odds of seeing the next encounter. He should view his undead as expendable and himself as, well, not.

[Adrayll]

I thought that may be the case. Are there any guidelines for creating the ability scores of a NPC? Or just common sense?

[Sinfire Titan]

I thought that may be the case. Are there any guidelines for creating the ability scores of a NPC? Or just common sense?

Honestly, don't use the Elite Array in the DMG. If you have an idea of what he's supposed to do, here's a good list for scores (before racial modifiers):

SAD Caster:

16 Con
14 Dex
18 Casting Stat
10 everything else

MAD Caster

14 Con
14 Dex
16 Stat 1
16 Stat 2



For this character, however, you can do this:

16 Dex
14 Con
18 Cha
10 everything else.

Acronyms
SAD= Single-Ability Dependent. Character requires only Constitution and one other stat to be powerful.

MAD= Multiple Ability Dependent. Character needs more than Con and a single stat. Most classes go here.

[jiriku]

Well, the #1 problem DMs face with recurring villains is that players kill them. so, I'd start by giving the recurring villain some means of spying on the players in combat and assessing their tactics and strengths. This will provide an in-game excuse for what you are about to do, which is to shamelessly metagame against them and build a BBEG who is tailor-made to survive their attacks.

Now, I didn't say beat them or kill them, mind you. Just survive.

For example, if your players are fond of energy-based attacks, you need energy resistance and a strong Ref save. If they use save-or-die effects, he needs death ward and strong Fort and Will saves. Melee attacks? Learn to fly. Ranged attacks? Wall of wind. You also want an abnormally high Con score and Improved Toughness, to garner lots and lots of hit points. Really, you can't have too many hit points.

Second step: the villain needs an escape route. Running away on foot almost never works. Players can run, ride, fly, and teleport to catch up, and they can use grease, webs, entangling vines and all manner of badness to keep him from moving. Invisibility works well as an escape method at levels 1-2, and teleport works well up to 6th level or lower, but after that they start acquiring means of defeating those methods. One of the surest methods of escape is the ability to come back from the dead. This can be accomplished by being a vampire or a lich, or through the services of a friendly high-level cleric. Mechanically undead just generally make good recurring villains because they have loads of immunities, making it hard for players to knock them out of action with one spell. Plus, they're stylish.


To directly answer your question about ECL, I'd suggest the BBEG and escorts should be the party's EL+3 or 4, with the BBEG himself contributing at least half of the ECL.

Now, to make this challenging but not an automatic party wipe,the BBEG and all escorts should be built with an eye towards endurance, survivability, and debuffing (inflicting penalties on opponents, rather than damage). To provide a simple example, if the party is ECL6 and the BBEG is CR 8, enervation is a more appropriate attack spell than empowered scorching ray. Enervation will inflict at most 4 negative levels, costing the victim 20 hp, four lost spells, and a -4 to all rolls. That hurts, and inflicts lasting penalties. However, empowered scorching ray might deal 50 points of damage, which is enough to one-shot-kill many 6th level characters.

Also, consider the setup. A straight-up fight with both sides attacking one another with no distractions is likely to result in fatalities on one side or the other. However, if the characters encounter the BBEG just as he's leaving a burning building with bound hostages inside it, the players are going to be distracted by the fire and the need to rescue hostages, while the BBEG is going to be attempting to leave. You might have a brief skirmish there, but most likely the BBEG is going to get away scot-free while the players rescue hostages.

[Optimystik]

Agreed on the Dread Necromancer front, and apologies for not delving deeper into your problem.

But for all of you, there's a whole stickied thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18512) on abbreviations that could have saved a lot of typing :smalltongue:

[Adrayll]

Here's what I have for the first time the PC's encounter Thomas. (I named him Thomas Vect)

Thomas Vect, Necromancer
Male Human, Dread Necromancer 3
Lawful Evil
CR: 3
HD: 3d6 + 9 + 3(improved toughness); (hp 30)
Init: +2
Spd: 20ft
AC: 17 (touch 13, flat-footed 15);
Atk: +1
SV Fort +4, Ref +3, Will +3;
Str 10, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 18.
Height 5’ 11”
Skills: Bluff , Concentration +9, Use Magic Device: +9 (due to spellcraft synergy), Spellcraft +8
Feats: Improved Toughness, Tomb-Tainted Soul, Corpsecrafter
Special Abilities: Charnel Touch, Rebuke Undead, Negative Energy Burst (1/day)
Sepcial Qualities: DR2/magic and bludgeoning
Possessions: Chainmail, +1 Ring of Protection, Scroll of Invisibility, Scroll of Mage Armor, Longsword, Scroll of Expeditious Retreat

Tactics:
1st Round: Uses scroll of Mage Armor on self, raising AC to 21. Draws sword just in case
2nd Round: If a significant portion of his undead are damaged, will move towards them and heal them with Negative Energy Burst. If not, he will cast his ray of enfeeblement on the strongest melee fighter.
3rd Round onward: Will continue to hide behind his undead, or 5-foot step forward to use chill touch on a PC. If he is not close enough to do so, will use Summon Undead I to summon a human warrior skeleton to aid his undead.
All undead are destroyed, or battle otherwise goes poorly: Thomas will use his scroll of Invisibility and begin to flee, followed by his scroll of Expeditious Retreat the following round, fleeing as fast as he can from the PC’s.

[JaronK]

If you want him to survive the encounter, don't put him in the encounter. Buff his undead making abilities (Corpse Crafter, Destructive Retribution, and so on) and have him make really nice undead. Use his advanced learnings to let him cast Animate Dread Warrior, and use disguised Dread Warriors as proxies for him (remember, DNs get Disguise as a class skill and they're charisma based). If you put him in front of the PCs, they'll kill him.

JaronK

[Adrayll]

The party I'm planning this against is a 3-person party of a gnome sorcerer, an elf ranger, and a human cleric (kord). I don't know whether that will help tailor him, since we haven't started playing yet.

[jiriku]

He should begin battle with mage armor already active and his weapon already drawn. I'd recommend an escort of 6 to 8 human warrior skeletons with reach weapons, so that they can use the threat of their attacks of opportunity to limit PC movement and help their boss get away. Your script should be something like:

Round 1: ray of enfeeblement
Round 2: negative energy burst
Round 3: invisibility and disengage
Round 4: expeditious retreat and flee

Be ready to turn invisible and flee on round 2 if injured for more than, say, 9 hp damage on the first round.

If the party is all 1st level and has no magic items, I'm still a little worried for your dude, but he should be OK if he focuses on getting out with his skin intact. If they are 2nd level, then he is going to die an ugly death.

Also, good advice: despite the best-laid plans, sometimes the BBEG goes down much sooner than you'd expect. Be prepared for this by having prepared at least a general idea of an even more villainous master or an ambitious lieutenant who can step in and be the new primary antagonist, just in case.

[Adrayll]

wait, what? That would be a CR of like somewhere between 4-6. How would that work? I expect them to be around level 2 - part way to three. I do plan to have some skeletons with him.

EDIT: Am I misunderstanding CR?

[jiriku]

EDIT: Deleted long, confusing, factually inaccurate post. Replaced with the following:

A third level dread necromancer with a handful of skeletons is a very stiff challenge for a group of three 2nd-level adventurers, but it's a terribly, terribly dangerous gamble for the necromancer, especially if your plot can't afford to lose him. I'd personally peg his odds of survival at 40%.

If your PC group is three level 2 players, Thomas should maybe be level 5, and his escort should be 3-4 bugbear zombies or owlbear skeletons.

[Sinfire Titan]

Jiriku, PCs are expected to spend 25% of their daily resources on an equal-leveled Encounter according to the DMG. Not 80%. And an encounter 2 levels below the party should not cause a casualty without really poor luck/planning on the party's behalf.



Yes, this is WotC's line of thought. They actually thought a CR 5 solo encounter would be 25% of a 5th level party's resources when they printed the 3.5 MM.

[jiriku]

Jiriku, PCs are expected to spend 25% of their daily resources on an equal-leveled Encounter according to the DMG. Not 80%. And an encounter 2 levels below the party should not cause a casualty without really poor luck/planning on the party's behalf.



Yes, this is WotC's line of thought. They actually thought a CR 5 solo encounter would be 25% of a 5th level party's resources when they printed the 3.5 MM.

Edit: I think my previous post basically failed to accomplish its intended purpose, and had some math errors besides. It has now been massively edited to not cause insanity.

[Adrayll]

Thomas Vect, Necromancer
Male Human, Dread Necromancer 5
Lawful Evil
HD: 5d6 + 17 + 5(improved toughness); (hp 40)
Init: +2
Spd: 20ft
AC: 19 (12 touch, 17 flat-footed)
Atk: +2
SV Fort +4, Ref +3, Will +4;
Str 10, Dex 14, Con 18 (16+2), Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 20 (19+1).
Height 5’ 11”
Skills: Concentration +12, Spellcraft +5, Use Magical Device +12, Disguise +6
Feats: Improved Toughness, Tomb-Tainted Soul, Magical Aptitude
Special Abilities: Charnel Touch, Rebuke Undead, Negative Energy Burst (1/day), Fear Aura
Sepcial Qualities: DR2/magic and bludgeoning, Mental Bastion
Possessions: +3 Chain Shirt, Invisibility Potion, Scroll of Expeditious Retreat, +1 Cloak of Charisma, +2 Amulet of Health
Other: Advanced learning (added desecrate to 2nd level spells)

There he is again, at 5th-level as proposed. Now, he can heal himself and the proposed escort with his inflict moderate wounds. Similar tactics in general though. You can stack protection bonuses like that, right?

EDIT: Fixed hitpoint issues
EDIT EDIT: Fixed Issues with AC

[Gan The Grey]

Just a bit of a nitpick and small amount of help, but the average roll on 1d8 is 4.5, not 4, so every other level he will receive 4 HP, and every other level he will receive 5 HP. So...yeah. :smallsmile:

[jiriku]

His potion of mage armor, his chain shirt+1, and his bracers of armor won't stack with one another. He'll just get the benefit of the chain shirt. However, you could replace his potion of mage armor with a potion of shield, and convert the bracers of armor+2 and the chain shirt +1 into a chain shirt +3. It's a little above WBL, but no harm no foul.

[Adrayll]

Quick question, seeing as I'm fairly bad at calculating CR/EL. The partie's probably gonna be level 3, not 2. Should I bring him up one level or two? I'm thinking maybe even leave him the same, and add more undead gribblies?

[Sinfire Titan]

Quick question, seeing as I'm fairly bad at calculating CR/EL. The partie's probably gonna be level 3, not 2. Should I bring him up one level or two? I'm thinking maybe even leave him the same, and add more undead gribblies?

Putting him at 6th level or giving him a Ghoul minion to compensate would be enough.

[Adrayll]

So, what I'm look at for the encounter is this (i'll just assume they don't multiclass early):

Good Guys
Cleric 3
Ranger 3
Sorceror 3

Bad Guys
Dread Necromancer 5
Ghoul
2 Owlbear Skeletons
6 Human Warrior Skeletons

All undead affected by Corpsecrafter
What would the CR be?

[jiriku]

I'd say about CR 8. Your three adventurers, if they were a monster encounter, would be CR 6. The ghoul minion, as a CR 1 monster, doesn't significantly increase the difficulty of the encounter. I'd recommend that you either upgrade the ghoul to a ghast or add a second ghoul. My money's on option 1, because then you get the fun stench aura and better save DCs for the paralysis. This makes the ghast more distinctively different from the other undead.

[Adrayll]

Wait, what? A CR of 8, if I understand it properly is 5 levels higher than the party, resulting in pretty much death, and only death. Could someone please explain CR and EL to me, since I apparently have no idea how it works?

[Devils_Blind]

Mostly, they don't. CR is a ballpark estimation of the level that a balanced 4-5 character party needs to be to defeat a threat. The estimation part is key there. This number doesn't not take into account:

The tactical/organizational skills of the party.
The tactical/organizational skills of the monsters at the specific time the PCs encounter them.
The class/feat/gear/spell optimization of the party.
The gear of the party compared to recommended wealth by level.
The specific relevance of character classes vs the monster (aka clerics vs undead).
The creativity of the players.
The presence of lucky crits or poor rolls on either side.

In general, you could say that CR 5 is tougher than a CR 3, and tha tboth are weaker than a CR 7. But, despite what the books and SRD may suggest, this is not a particularly meaningful comparison of power level to an actual specific party of characters, in an actual specific game.

[jiriku]

Wait, what? A CR of 8, if I understand it properly is 5 levels higher than the party, resulting in pretty much death, and only death. Could someone please explain CR and EL to me, since I apparently have no idea how it works?

You are spot-on correct, and you understand CR perfectly. CR 8 vs. 3 3rd-level PCs is death, death, and only death.

That's the point.

Any conflict with a BBEG in which the BBEG is "meant to survive" is essentially a loaded encounter. It's not a fair fight. The PCs will survive, not because they beat the encounter fair and square, but because the BBEG is more interested in exiting stage left than in killing them, and because once he leaves (possibly taking one or two undead with him as a rear guard), the encounter difficulty for the remaining monsters drops in half. Alternately, the players may survive because they realize that they're outgunned and they run away.

Why does it have to be this way? Because if you give them a fair fight, the players are likely to toast your villain, and the plot will collapse.

Edit: Also, if they kick his ass from here to next Tuesday, your players won't be fearful of the villain even if he escapes to menace them again.

Running a loaded encounter like this is not easy. It requires considerable finesse to make the players feel endangered without creating an automatic TPK (Total Party Kill). If that's not your style, or you don't feel up to the challenge, you have some alternatives that will allow you to pitch a tough-but-fair fight (say, CR 4-5) and let the dice fall where they may without endangering your storyline:

Use the villain's lieutenant, instead of the BBEG himself.
Use a simulacrum or clone of the villain.
Use a self-resurrecting villain, like a lich or vampire.

[Adrayll]

I understand now. I'll make sure he's good and mean.

EDIT: As in, do something to keep it running like say the owlbear skeletons don't go into combat, they instead stay with the BBEG to guard him, so they don't get hit by all the combat at once?

[jiriku]

Yeah, you've got it! Nothing says "I'm just toying with you" like sending the first wave of minions in, with a second, tougher wave held in reserve, visibly ready to follow on.

A challenge you might face is that all three of your PCs have access to spells or ranged attacks, so they may ignore the minions and just concentrate fire on the necromancer, trying to take him down as quickly as possible That's especially likely with the archer, since his player probably knows that D&D skeletons are resistant to piercing damage. He won't have a way to know that Thomas has DR as well, so ole' Tom will seem like the softer target.

[Adrayll]

Alright, I think i've got this under control.

Also, I wasn't sure about this, do you add DEX modifier to ranged damage? I don't think so, but...

EDIT: Forget it, I was reading DR backwards.