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Admiral Squish
2010-03-31, 04:01 PM
I love this class. I do. It's flavorful, it's a good buffer/healer, and it can do that while still being a relatively effective melee fighter and even a party face if you pick your totem right. It's a simple matter to adapt it to any sort of situation RP-wise, and everyone benefits if you lay out your auras right.

But it's still a pretty weak class, and sadly, there is literally zero support for it. What can be done to make a dragon shaman really work in anything above low-level optimization? Homebrew fixes, RAW exploits... I'm looking for anything right now.

Blackfang108
2010-03-31, 04:05 PM
I love this class. I do. It's flavorful, it's a good buffer/healer, and it can do that while still being a relatively effective melee fighter and even a party face if you pick your totem right. It's a simple matter to adapt it to any sort of situation RP-wise, and everyone benefits if you lay out your auras right.

But it's still a pretty weak class, and sadly, there is literally zero support for it. What can be done to make a dragon shaman really work in anything above low-level optimization? Homebrew fixes, RAW exploits... I'm looking for anything right now.

Double Draconic Aura from Dragon Magic. (there's extra auras there, too.)

EpicEvokerElf
2010-03-31, 04:09 PM
I'm tempted to suggest giving it full BAB...

Last Laugh
2010-03-31, 04:17 PM
Dragonborn Dragon Shaman gets two breath weapons with recharge timers.
Draconomicon is the way to go (Metabreath feats)

In all seriousness tho a Blue Dragon Shaman is just much to much fun, ventriloquism at will? Just imagine the fun that happens at 13th level? No one knows where their voice is coming from, where their friends voice is coming from, etc, etc.

Elfin
2010-03-31, 04:18 PM
I'd advise giving it full BAB as well, though otherwise I'm not sure. I agree, though - it's a great class, concept- and flavor-wise, at least.

On a different note, as long as the dragon shaman's being brought up, what are the best totems to choose?

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-31, 04:26 PM
Dragonborn Dragon Shaman gets two breath weapons with recharge timers.
Draconomicon is the way to go (Metabreath feats)

In all seriousness tho a Blue Dragon Shaman is just much to much fun, ventriloquism at will? Just imagine the fun that happens at 13th level? No one knows where their voice is coming from, where their friends voice is coming from, etc, etc.

Rules Compendium put a nerf on multiple Breath Weapons. Use one, and all of your BWs use that one's recharge time until you can use your Breath Weapon again.

Admiral Squish
2010-03-31, 04:37 PM
So far I got full BaB and a feat that doesn't happen until 12.

Would it break it to move the breath progression up to more like sneak attack? Boost the aura progression to +1 /3-4 levels? Maybe even knock touch of vitality up to 1st or 2nd?

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-31, 04:54 PM
So far I got full BaB and a feat that doesn't happen until 12.

Would it break it to move the breath progression up to more like sneak attack? Boost the aura progression to +1 /3-4 levels? Maybe even knock touch of vitality up to 1st or 2nd?

Bump the Touch of Vitality to 4th, Breath Weapon as Sneak Attack (but 2d6/3 levels, so 18d6 every 1d4 rounds, reflex half, energy resistance applies, set damage type).

Auras should progress to be 1/2 class levels, and there needs to be more than just 7 or 9 or so. They need options at each level, otherwise every single one plays the exact same way.

Bump the wings up to 10th. Nat Armor should be Con to Nat Armor bonus, limited by class level.

Zaq
2010-03-31, 06:17 PM
Give them a limited martial maneuver progression. I'd say White Raven (for synergy with the auras and other buffs) and Desert Wind (specifically changed to the energy type of your breath weapon). If you're especially adept at homebrew, maybe make their maneuver recovery method tied to their breath weapon. Off the top of my head, I'd say something like "When you use your breath weapon, you recover one maneuver for every enemy who fails their save, and one maneuver for every two enemies who succeed on their saves, with a minimum of one maneuver recovered. You may also recover maneuvers as a Swordsage."

Honestly, grafting ToB onto weak classes is one of the easiest fixes possible, and it works more often than not.

Raiki
2010-03-31, 06:24 PM
Honestly, grafting ToB onto weak classes is one of the easiest fixes possible, and it works more often than not.

Well, I don't know about that. I think just giving the Dragon Shaman full BAB, and increasing the auras and breath weapon, you get a very well rounded and effective class.

And as far as making everything a tob class, that would be almost as ridiculous as giving every weak class full wizard spellcasting. Classes should really be reworked to stand on their own merits.

~R~

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-31, 06:29 PM
Welp, +1 to Head Desk count.



Seriously, Tome of Battle isn't anywhere near as broken as Wizard casting. It's about as good as Duskblade casting. Tops.

Zaq
2010-03-31, 06:30 PM
Well, I don't know about that. I think just giving the Dragon Shaman full BAB, and increasing the auras and breath weapon, you get a very well rounded and effective class.

And as far as making everything a tob class, that would be almost as ridiculous as giving every weak class full wizard spellcasting. Classes should really be reworked to stand on their own merits.

~R~

The thing about ToB is that it's modular enough to make very different flavors without too much work. The White Raven / Desert Wind combo I mentioned above, for example, doesn't appear on any existing class's list of disciplines, and although I'm sure it needs tweaking, it was a simple thing to come up with a unique recovery mechanic that ties in to the existing abilities of the class. The important thing to remember is that you don't take away the abilities of the class you give the maneuvers to. You just give them something new to do that augments their existing abilities and shores up their weak spots. In this case, the Dragon Shaman no longer just has to stand around saying "Ok, um, remember the +2 aura, guys! I'll just be over here, waiting to recharge, maybe making an ineffective attack or two... Try to get next to me if you need some healing, I guess... You know what? I'll go get the pizza." You're not giving them as many maneuvers as a swordsage. You're just giving them something new they can do to make the class less deathly boring.

Admiral Squish
2010-03-31, 06:31 PM
That's not the point he's trying to make. He's saying throwing on ToB maneuvers would be like saying the best way to fix a fighter is to play a duskblade.

They're different things, and they should remain thus.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-31, 06:33 PM
That's not the point he's trying to make. He's saying throwing on ToB maneuvers would be like saying the best way to fix a fighter is to play a duskblade.

They're different things, and they should remain thus.

Well, kinda. The best way to fix the Fighter is to address it's weakest points (the dead feats, the lack of actual class features that do anything relevant, the item dependency, the lack of action variability, etc).

The best way to avoid needing to fix the Fighter is to play a different class.

Admiral Squish
2010-03-31, 06:45 PM
But right now, we don't want to play a different class, because there's no other class that works quite the same as out beloved DS.

tyckspoon
2010-03-31, 06:57 PM
In addition to speeding up the scaling of the auras my approach would be to add additional effects to them that benefit the Shaman himself. So the damage aura would add damage to everybody's attacks as usual, while the Shaman would additionally get the bonus to Hit (effectively mimicking having full BAB for raw to-hit value, at the least). Everybody gets retributive energy damage, the Shaman does extra damage with/increases the DC of his breath weapon. Everybody gets energy resistance, the Shaman lowers the recharge timer on his breath. And so on. Tier-wise, you should be able to land comfortably in 4; the Dragon Shaman would still have a relatively limited bag of tricks (basically Hit Things or Breath On Things, as far as encounter-solving abilities go) but he'd be effective at them.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-31, 07:37 PM
But right now, we don't want to play a different class, because there's no other class that works quite the same as out beloved DS.

A Dragonfire Adept with Shape Soulmeld (Lifebond Vestments) and the Dragonic Aura feat. I just replicated 90% of the DS's class features.

Raiki
2010-03-31, 07:42 PM
Welp, +1 to Head Desk count.



Seriously, Tome of Battle isn't anywhere near as broken as Wizard casting. It's about as good as Duskblade casting. Tops.

Well, I wasn't actually saying that tob was as powerful as a Wizard's casting, just that fixing a class by tacking on the unmodified ability of another class isn't really fixing anything. It really does fall into the same argument as:
Q: "How do you build the best Fighter?"
A: "That's simple! Druid 20!"


But right now, we don't want to play a different class, because there's no other class that works quite the same as out beloved DS.

QFT


In addition to speeding up the scaling of the auras my approach would be to add additional effects to them that benefit the Shaman himself. So the damage aura would add damage to everybody's attacks as usual, while the Shaman would additionally get the bonus to Hit (effectively mimicking having full BAB for raw to-hit value, at the least). Everybody gets retributive energy damage, the Shaman does extra damage with/increases the DC of his breath weapon. Everybody gets energy resistance, the Shaman lowers the recharge timer on his breath. And so on. Tier-wise, you should be able to land comfortably in 4; the Dragon Shaman would still have a relatively limited bag of tricks (basically Hit Things or Breath On Things, as far as encounter-solving abilities go) but he'd be effective at them.

That's...actually a really good idea. I would also toss the 1d4 round recharge for the breath weapon, it works just fine for the Dragonfire Adept, and being able to drop one type of elemental damage at will in either a cone or a line isn't going to break anything.

I'd even go a bit further, and give them bonus metabreath feats every few levels (though, after you take away the recharge time, you'd have to houserule that they still qualify).

That's my 2 coppers anyway.


Edit @ Sinfire: Well, it's nice to be quoted, but I can't help but think that a man of your integrity wouldn't post a quote out of context just to ridicule someone's intentionally hyperbolous statement.
~R~

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-03-31, 08:11 PM
I'd probably use a Dragonborn of Bahamut (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060105b&page=1) with the Heart aspect, and get Entangling Exhalation from Races of the Dragon. Use a breath as often as possible, since the wait between uses will be tracked separately for each, and try to keep every opponent entangled. If you can use flaws take Shield Specialization and Shield Ward, and probably try to pick up Dreadful Wrath from PGtF. Recover Breath from the Draconomicon would also be a decent choice so you could use a breath weapon almost every round. Max out Intimidate, get the Never Outnumbered skill trick, and probably take Imperious Command from Drow of the Underdark. Intimidate checks to demoralize combine well with Dreadful Wrath, and Never Outnumbered can be useful for big encounters. Play it as a tanky debuffer, it's more of a support class than a damage dealer so focus on what it's good at and let the rest of the party be the ones dealing damage.

Admiral Squish
2010-03-31, 10:10 PM
Actually, we clarified, the rules say any case of multiple breath weapons ends up with you resetting all your breath timers every time you breathe.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-04-01, 02:45 AM
Actually, we clarified, the rules say any case of multiple breath weapons ends up with you resetting all your breath timers every time you breathe.

I guess that's what I get for skipping over most of the thread. Still, it will allow you to get Entangling Exhalation and Recover Breath prior to level 6, and if your opponents happen to be immune to your breath attack you can just switch to the Dragonborn breath. Suppose a character starts out as a Dragonborn Dragon Shaman of a good-aligned dragon variety, but he is unable to live up to Bahamut's standards, and his repeated offenses result in the loss of the template. He may be bitter and convert to a Dragon Shaman of an evil-aligned variety, or continue fighting Tiamat's minions his way, perhaps even becoming delusional and assuming everything he meets is somehow in league with his enemies. The end result would be a Dragon Shaman able to take breath weapon feats from 1st level, after which you'd convert back to your original race and regain everything that was lost in the transformation. It would cost only 100 gp for the original ritual, and you'd get a rich backstory for the character.

Greenish
2010-04-01, 04:25 AM
Well, I wasn't actually saying that tob was as powerful as a Wizard's casting, just that fixing a class by tacking on the unmodified ability of another class isn't really fixing anything. It really does fall into the same argument as:
Q: "How do you build the best Fighter?"
A: "That's simple! Druid 20!"Tagging a couple of schools of maneuvers on a class is hardly same as giving them "the unmodified ability of another class". It's a bit bigger change than full BAB, yeah, but hardly changes the class to a different one.

Besides, the OP did ask for homebrew fixes.

Optimystik
2010-04-01, 05:52 AM
A Dragonfire Adept with Shape Soulmeld (Lifebond Vestments) and the Dragonic Aura feat. I just replicated 90% of the DS's class features.

This, plus you get uber-smexy evocations. I like Dragon Shaman and all, but he's as redundant as Duelist when Swashbuckler came out.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-04-01, 07:31 AM
I love DS's

MY fixes ususaly consist of it Getting 3 things
1 is increase the skills to 4+
2. is giving the invocation ACF for free at the levels you could normaly take it.
3. double aura at 10th