Bleach: (Formerly Gin Speculation, now general) (Spoilers)

[Drolyt]

Well, this week's Bleach was interesting, and now Gin is using his Bankai. Since we only have a week before we get to see it, I say we speculate! What is Gin's Bankai?

[Nerocite]

A gun. After Soifon's bazooka, anything is possible!

[Drolyt]

A gun. After Soifon's bazooka, anything is possible!

Well, Soifon had one of those finger rings with a point on the end and that somehow became a bazooka, but still why would Gin's extending sword become a gun? Didn't everyone's favorite Arrancar already do the whole dual wielding guns thing?

[Frozen_Feet]

I think it'll become Son Goku's staff.

[Innis Cabal]

Its going to be something with snakes. They've already used the analogy

[Drolyt]

I think it'll become Son Goku's staff.

They both extend, but I don't remember that thing having any special powers other than connecting to Kami's palace.


Its going to be something with snakes. They've already used the analogy

I like this theory. Might make him a bit too similar to Orochimaru though.

[Nerocite]

Well, Soifon had one of those finger rings with a point on the end and that somehow became a bazooka, but still why would Gin's extending sword become a gun? Didn't everyone's favorite Arrancar already do the whole dual wielding guns thing?

His shikai's release command is, "Shoot to Kill", and it extends at a high speed. Pretty gun-like to me.

[Isak]

Its going to be something with snakes. They've already used the analogy

A little too similar to Orochimaru (As stated already), and even Renji to some degree.

A gun seems very likely... Or even something like a Lance... Wasn't there one in some Myth that extended to extreme lengths?

[Drolyt]

A little too similar to Orochimaru (As stated already), and even Renji to some degree.

A gun seems very likely... Or even something like a Lance... Wasn't there one in some Myth that extended to extreme lengths?

Something in mythology that extended to extreme length? Nothing I can think of actually... was Goku's staff based on something from mythology, I know he was originally based on Journey to the West?

[Innis Cabal]

They both extend, but I don't remember that thing having any special powers other than connecting to Kami's palace.



I like this theory. Might make him a bit too similar to Orochimaru though.

Ummm...no? Orochimaru isn't even in the same manga. That has nothing to do with anything. Plenty of villians used snakes long before Orochimaru...


I still hold to my theory.

[Ganurath]

Bankais are supposed to be big, so it'll be a large weapon. Gin specializes in messing with people's heads, so it'll be a weapon that behaves in a manner that doesn't fit its appearances. Finally, he's a backstabber, so...

Gin's bankai will be a greatsword that he can wield like a dagger and can stab through interdimensional pockets to strike his enemies in the back.

[Drolyt]

Bankais are supposed to be big, so it'll be a large weapon. Gin specializes in messing with people's heads, so it'll be a weapon that behaves in a manner that doesn't fit its appearances. Finally, he's a backstabber, so...

Gin's bankai will be a greatsword that he can wield like a dagger and can stab through interdimensional pockets to strike his enemies in the back.

Stabbing through inter-dimensional pockets would be cool, but why a greatsword? Why not a bunch of snakes that can attack from all angles?


Ummm...no? Orochimaru isn't even in the same manga. That has nothing to do with anything. Plenty of villians used snakes long before Orochimaru...
They are rival shows? Especially in the US, where One Piece is less popular (in Japan One Piece dominates, but Naruto and Bleach fight for number two).

[Ganurath]

Stabbing through inter-dimensional pockets would be cool, but why a greatsword? Why not a bunch of snakes that can attack from all angles?Snakes are twisting, seething, difficult to track due to sheer complexity. Gin is direct in manner if not in motive, elegant in that he uses the minimum effort to maximum effect, difficult to track due to him being just that good.

Snake swarms are for schemers and wannabe masterminds. Gin has the power of Genre Savvy, and that means using a simple weapon with a useful set of easily concealed abilities.

[Drolyt]

Snakes are twisting, seething, difficult to track due to sheer complexity. Gin is direct in manner if not in motive, elegant in that he uses the minimum effort to maximum effect, difficult to track due to him being just that good.

Snake swarms are for schemers and wannabe masterminds. Gin has the power of Genre Savvy, and that means using a simple weapon with a useful set of easily concealed abilities.

Still, teleporting snakes is pretty direct. It technically covers less distance. Maybe just one snake?

[Tavar]

I like the greatsword idea. Plus, it seems more linked to his original release.

[Drolyt]

I like the greatsword idea. Plus, it seems more linked to his original release.

Linked to his original release? We have pointy rings that turn into bazookas, a giant cleaver that becomes a slim katana, a poisoned sword that turns into a giant baby caterpillar monster, a areal attack sword that creates a sphere of darkness... I don't think being linked to his original release is a prerequisite.

[KnightDisciple]

Linked to his original release? We have pointy rings that turn into bazookas, a giant cleaver that becomes a slim katana, a poisoned sword that turns into a giant baby caterpillar monster, a areal attack sword that creates a sphere of darkness... I don't think being linked to his original release is a prerequisite.

But neither is it unheard of. I point to Byakuya, Komamaru, and Renji as prime examples of this.

[Tavar]

In addition to what knight disciple said, we also have Captian Hitsugaya, with a clear ice dragon theme. Further more, going case by case;

We have pointy rings that turn into bazookas, a giant cleaver that becomes a slim katana,
Yeah, these are both non-similar. Not much I can say.

a poisoned sword that turns into a giant baby caterpillar monster,
That poisons everything around it. Yeah, the fact that it's a giant baby/catterpillar is freaky, but I think that's kinda the general theme; the first release is still a sword/handheld weapon of some sort, just with special abilities. The Bankia just throws this all out the window, and is more of the sword's spirit taking physical form, or something (this even give some evidence for Ichigo's Bankia, as his clothes then change to something similar to his swords old guy).

a areal attack sword that creates a sphere of darkness
It doesn't create a sphere of darkness. It creates a sensory deprivation chamber, that's bypasses if you can touch his sword. Very similar, and that's not even getting into the fact that the sword might have other sense-based powers in it's first state. Or possibly that the Bankia only blocks sight and sound(can't remember).

[Binks]

The attacking through alternate dimensions thing would be really cool, powerful, and fit Gin nicely. I'm not so sure about the broadsword thing though...I think it would fit his style more to have a Bankai like Ichigo's, small and unremarkable...and then bam, shoots you in the back through a dimensional portal. Basically his Shikai + teleporting the blade to attack from absurd angles.

Of course with the last few Bankai reveals (Looking at you Soifon) anything could happen...his Bankai could bake everyone in the area a delicious cake and make them reconcile their differences over some tea for all we know...

[Drolyt]

It doesn't create a sphere of darkness. It creates a sensory deprivation chamber, that's bypasses if you can touch his sword. Very similar, and that's not even getting into the fact that the sword might have other sense-based powers in it's first state. Or possibly that the Bankia only blocks sight and sound(can't remember).

The Bankai blocks everything but touch, even Reiatsu. I'm not saying Gin's Bankai won't follow a theme, just that there doesn't seem to be any rule saying it has to. And it could follow the theme in an unexpected way. Do we even know what the theme for his Shikai is supposed to be?

Of course with the last few Bankai reveals (Looking at you Soifon) anything could happen...his Bankai could bake everyone in the area a delicious cake and make them reconcile their differences over some tea for all we know...
So he's Chaos from 8-Bit Theater?

The fact that I'm typing this after watching Detective Conan episodes (I'm in the middle of the Clash of Red and Black arc) means that I keep thinking of Gin and Vodka when I'm supposed to be thinking of Ichimaru Gin.

[Revlid]

We have pointy rings that turn into bazookas, a giant cleaver that becomes a slim katana, a poisoned sword that turns into a giant baby caterpillar monster, a areal attack sword that creates a sphere of darkness...
We have a small sting that turns into a massive sting, a poisoned baby-face sword that becomes a massive poisoned baby-face monster, a sense-attack that becomes a massive sense-attack, razor-blossoms that become massive razor-blossoms, a sword-snake that becomes a massive sword-snake, a giant gauntlet that becomes an actual giant, and an ice dragon that becomes a different ice dragon.

I vote a hedgehog made of extending swords.

[TheSummoner]

Either a very large sword that is able to extend and twist in several impossible directions or several smaller blades that do the same and attack from multiple angles.

Gin using a his Bankai kinda rains on my "Hes going to outlive Aizen and become the main villain" theory though... Not impossible, but it makes it seem less likely.

[Fiery Diamond]

Either a very large sword that is able to extend and twist in several impossible directions or several smaller blades that do the same and attack from multiple angles.

Gin using a his Bankai kinda rains on my "Hes going to outlive Aizen and become the main villain" theory though... Not impossible, but it makes it seem less likely.

Yes, I agree, less likely, but not impossible. In fact, I think the recent exchange between Aizen and Gin says something about Aizen's lack of knowledge of what Gin's motives may be, which still leaves open the possibility of Gin being the new big bad.

I like how both Gin and Aizen have some obvious big bad attributes that are distinct.

Aizen: Supah Powah'd; Know-it-all; Plan-ahead; manipulative bastard
Gin: Sly; powerful (has hidden most of his powers until now); sneaky bastard; he really strikes me as more of a schemer as opposed to Aizen, who is a planner

[Mystic Muse]

Okay am I the only one who noticed the "it's been a long time since we fought, this time, I won't go easy on you" line? :smallsigh:

........crap.

GIN IS HOLLOW ICHIGO!!!!!!

Search your feelings. you know it to be true.

[Fiery Diamond]

Okay am I the only one who noticed the "it's been a long time since we fought, this time, I won't go easy on you" line? :smallsigh:

........crap.

GIN IS HOLLOW ICHIGO!!!!!!

Search your feelings. you know it to be true.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Totally awesome.

[Ganurath]

I thought he was referring to the entrance to the Sereitei.

[Mystic Muse]

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Totally awesome.

I'm not sure whether this is a joke or I actually believe it.:smallsigh::smallredface:

[Rogue 7]

I love how Isshin's attack basically consisted of flipping Aizen off. Ten kinds of awesome.

[Drolyt]

Okay am I the only one who noticed the "it's been a long time since we fought, this time, I won't go easy on you" line? :smallsigh:

........crap.

GIN IS HOLLOW ICHIGO!!!!!!

Search your feelings. you know it to be true.

That, is, uh, how would that work? I think Gin meant when Ichigo tried to get into Sereitei.

[Tavar]

I love how Isshin's attack basically consisted of flipping Aizen off. Ten kinds of awesome.

Yes, yes it is. And it seems to actually do something. Wonder what.

[Optimystik]

Keep in mind also that both Gin and Aizen have yet to use their "refined" Vizard-ness. I have a feeling that we'll be seeing both shortly.

Also, where's Ishida's dad? Big Damn Heroes in 3...2...

[Tavar]

Keep in mind also that both Gin and Aizen have yet to use their "refined" Vizard-ness. I have a feeling that we'll be seeing both shortly.
Azien said that he didn't Hollowfy himself, so only Gin potentially has that ability.

[KnightDisciple]

Azien said that he didn't Hollowfy himself, so only Gin potentially has that ability.

No, he just stuck the McGuffin in his chest.

Which is a scarier prospect, really.

[Optimystik]

Azien said that he didn't Hollowfy himself, so only Gin potentially has that ability.

Actually he said he didn't "undergo mere Hollowification." That's not the same as saying he won't be going One-Winged Angel at some point. He just might call it something else.

And yes, I'm fully expecting Gin to be a "complete" Vizarrancar like Tousen was, and for Matsumoto + Kira to take him down.

[Tavar]

Actually he said he didn't "undergo mere Hollowification." That's not the same as saying he won't be going One-Winged Angel at some point. He just might call it something else.
Right, but then it's not being a Vizard, as that only happens when a Shingami undergoes hollowification. I mean, that's the whole point of the mask, it's their inner hollow coming out and lending them strength.

And yes, I'm fully expecting Gin to be a "complete" Vizarrancar like Tousen was, and for Matsumoto + Kira to take him down.
You mean, the person currently down with a giant hole in her torso? That may be asking a bit much.

[Optimystik]

Right, but then it's not being a Vizard, as that only happens when a Shingami undergoes hollowification. I mean, that's the whole point of the mask, it's their inner hollow coming out and lending them strength.

The Vizard are the prototypes of what Aizen was trying to do. That's why he raped defeated them all so soundly. Thus, even if he puts on a mask/goes one-winged angel/gets hollow powers of any kind, he won't be a Vizard - any more than Tousen was. It's just a label.

But I don't for a second believe he has no hollow powers at all. Maybe he'll be able to use them without putting on a mask, but at some point he's going to drop the pretty-boy look.


You mean, the person currently down with a giant hole in her torso? That may be asking a bit much.

Holes in the torso don't seem to be quite as hindering in this series as they are in others. :smalltongue: (And no, I don't just mean for hollows.)

Besides, Hisagi got impaled more than once, and he still showed up to take on his mentor. It's the principle of the thing.

Gin and Ichigo have a minor history, but Kira and Matsumoto really have a reason to go after him. The first was the student, the second was the jilted lover.

[Drolyt]

I'm going to hazard a guess that neither Gin nor Aizen are going down just yet. I imagine they'll win this round. Probably. At any rate I don't see two lieutenants without Bankai taking on Ichimaru Gin of all people.

[Tavar]

Holes in the torso don't seem to be quite as hindering in this series as they are in others. :smalltongue: (And no, I don't just mean for hollows.)

Besides, Hisagi got impaled more than once, and he still showed up to take on his mentor. It's the principle of the thing.

Gin and Ichigo have a minor history, but Kira and Matsumoto really have a reason to go after him. The first was the student, the second was the jilted lover.

Holes aren't as big of a problem, no. But the ones that aren't are generally small (or hollow holes). She's missing what looks to be a third of her torso, and that kind of wound has been shown to be much worse. In fact, I think the only ones that treat that as nothing have high speed regeneration or that turning in to liquid thing that Mayuri Kurotsuchi does.

[Optimystik]

I'm going to hazard a guess that neither Gin nor Aizen are going down just yet. I imagine they'll win this round. Probably. At any rate I don't see two lieutenants without Bankai taking on Ichimaru Gin of all people.

And yet, Hisagi had no Bankai either.

I'm not saying they will beat him alone, but for them not to be involved in the fight at all is a much larger stretch.

(The fight where he goes down, at any rate.)


Holes aren't as big of a problem, no. But the ones that aren't are generally small (or hollow holes). She's missing what looks to be a third of her torso, and that kind of wound has been shown to be much worse. In fact, I think the only ones that treat that as nothing have high speed regeneration or that turning in to liquid thing that Mayuri Kurotsuchi does.

Hasn't Unohana arrived on the scene though? She's the best healer next to Orihime and Hachigen. I don't think Titty Tite Kubo brought her in for no reason.

[Drolyt]

And yet, Hisagi had no Bankai either.

Blind guy whose name I forget lost because he had fallen too low, he basically made the same mistake V did when he fought Xykon. He became ridiculously powerful, but forgot to watch out for sneak attacks. With his power he should have been able to repel Hisagi's attack with his reiatsu alone, but instead he received a fatal wound. I don't see Gin making a mistake like that.

[Optimystik]

Blind guy whose name I forget lost because he had fallen too low, he basically made the same mistake V did when he fought Xykon. He became ridiculously powerful, but forgot to watch out for sneak attacks. With his power he should have been able to repel Hisagi's attack with his reiatsu alone, but instead he received a fatal wound. I don't see Gin making a mistake like that.

Perhaps not that specific mistake; but Gin will make some mistake, because obviously he can't win.

He might not die (perhaps he can be redeemed, even after all he's done) but expecting him not to lose is a bit much.

And for Matsumoto and/or Kira to be completely uninvolved with that defeat is very anticlimactic.

[Frozen_Feet]

Something in mythology that extended to extreme length? Nothing I can think of actually... was Goku's staff based on something from mythology, I know he was originally based on Journey to the West?
Yup. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruyi_Jingu_Bang) Though now that I checked the name of the sword, it has also become to remind me of Gaé Bulg. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gae_Bolg)

Yes, I would be surprised if Kubo has done that much research, but hey.

[Binks]

Also, where's Ishida's dad? Big Damn Heroes in 3...2...

Lol...I've got this vision of everyone badly wounded and Aizen standing there all powerful...looks bad for the heroes, then a single arrow shoots right through Aizen's chest, killing him instantly...cue Ishida's Dad standing down on the ground somewhere putting down his bow and walking away mumbling about how the stupid shinigami were disturbing his concentration with their fight :P.

[Tavar]

Hasn't Unohana arrived on the scene though? She's the best healer next to Orihime and Hachigen. I don't think Titty Tite Kubo brought her in for no reason.
Even for her, this kind of injury can be a problem. Remember what happened with Kuchiki Byakuya or Tōshirō Hitsugaya when Azien revealed himself? She couldn't heal them instantly, and if anything this is worse. And there are many more people who need her help, like the one who was cut in half, or pretty much every captain.

[Ganurath]

Lol...I've got this vision of everyone badly wounded and Aizen standing there all powerful...looks bad for the heroes, then a single arrow shoots right through Aizen's chest, killing him instantly...cue Ishida's Dad standing down on the ground somewhere putting down his bow and walking away mumbling about how the stupid shinigami were disturbing his concentration with their fight :P.While I doubt he'll have the final blow, I imagine his Quincy arrow will be what destroys the Hokyoku.

[Mystic Muse]

That, is, uh, how would that work? I think Gin meant when Ichigo tried to get into Sereitei.

Gin and Ichigo actually fought? I don't remember that.

[Tavar]

Gin and Ichigo actually fought? I don't remember that.

After Ichigo defeated the gatekeeper guy, he then opened the door. After doing so, Gin Confronted him, cut off the gatekeeper's arm, and tried to kill him. Ichigo blocked the attack, however.

[Mystic Muse]

After Ichigo defeated the gatekeeper guy, he then opened the door. After doing so, Gin Confronted him, cut off the gatekeeper's arm, and tried to kill him. Ichigo blocked the attack, however.

Nope. Sorry. not ringing any bells.

[Mikeavelli]

Ichigo ran into Seireitei after defeating that giant Gate-guardian person back when Tite Kubo didn't feel all his Soul Reapers had to be human-sized and human-shaped.

Gin showed up and used his sword-shooting-thing to try to kill the giant dude, Ichigo got in the way and blocked with his sword. Then the gate fell down, and Gin did his "Bye-bye!" thing.

[Tavar]

Chapters 74 and 75.

[Demons_eye]

Does that count as a fight though?

[Optimystik]

Even for her, this kind of injury can be a problem. Remember what happened with Kuchiki Byakuya or Tōshirō Hitsugaya when Azien revealed himself? She couldn't heal them instantly, and if anything this is worse. And there are many more people who need her help, like the one who was cut in half, or pretty much every captain.

The captain's got messed up, but not fatally. They've been taken out of the fight, there is no need to rush to their aid. They're tough.

Matsumoto and Kira, as you yourself pointed out, are in much worse shape. They will thus be first for healing - basic triage. Therefore, they will be up and around before Hitsugaya, Komamura etc.

The latter set have nothing more to contribute anyway. We've seen all their tricks. That includes the Vizard.

Finally, we can't be sure that... thing she summoned was her Bankai either - therefore, we can't be sure that we've seen the limit of her ability. Nor can we be sure that she hasn't been training since the Rescue Arc along with the others. So even if it was her Bankai, she might be better at healing now than she was then.

There's too many variables to make a snap judgment, but one constant - Matsumoto and Kira have more of a history with Gin than Ichigo, and the characters with the history end up in the fight.


Gin and Ichigo actually fought? I don't remember that.

Wow. Um, I thought you were kidding with the whole "Gin is Hollow Ichigo" theory. You'd have to find some way of explaining how Hollow Ichigo was hanging out with Aizen way back when the Vizard were created, how he got into a relationship with Matsumoto, how he got inside Sereitei before Ichigo did... yeah. :smalltongue:


Does that count as a fight though?

Of course it doesn't - hence "I won't go easy on you this time." If it was a real fight, he wouldn't have gone easy on him back then. :smalltongue:

[Mystic Muse]

Wow. Um, I thought you were kidding with the whole "Gin is Hollow Ichigo" theory. You'd have to find some way of explaining how Hollow Ichigo was hanging out with Aizen way back when the Vizard were created, how he got into a relationship with Matsumoto, how he got inside Sereitei before Ichigo did... yeah. :smalltongue:

I was. Decided there was no way it could happen for just those reasons today. it was 4 AM when I posted, cut me some slack.:smalltongue:

[Fiery Diamond]

Of course it doesn't - hence "I won't go easy on you this time." If it was a real fight, he wouldn't have gone easy on him back then. :smalltongue:

Exactly.


I love how Isshin's attack basically consisted of flipping Aizen off. Ten kinds of awesome.

Also, yes.

[Prime32]

Finally, we can't be sure that... thing she summoned was her Bankai either - therefore, we can't be sure that we've seen the limit of her ability. Nor can we be sure that she hasn't been training since the Rescue Arc along with the others. So even if it was her Bankai, she might be better at healing now than she was then.If you're talking about "Captain Mom", I believe the giant healing manta ray was officially stated to be her shikai.

[Drolyt]

If you're talking about "Captain Mom", I believe the giant healing manta ray was officially stated to be her shikai.

I'm fairly certain it is her shikai. Even if it is a gigantic monster.

[Optimystik]

If you're talking about "Captain Mom", I believe the giant healing manta ray was officially stated to be her shikai.

I thought so too, but I couldn't find a source. Regardless, that just proves to me that we can't judge her abilities yet based only on what we've seen so far.

EDIT: Bleach Wiki has it as her Shikai as well, but I'm still not sure what they're basing that on.

[Tavar]

Huh. Well, to be fair, she's the third strongest shingami(after Grumpy Old Man and Evil Superman).

[Optimystik]

Huh. Well, to be fair, she's the third strongest shingami(after Grumpy Old Man and Evil Superman).

Is she? I thought she was behind Kyoraku.

Bleach Wiki gives her a slight edge (10 points) over him, but his abilities seem more geared toward offense. Also, y'know, beating Stark with his Shikai and all. :smalleek:

[Tavar]

I always thought that was to do with the fact that his Shikai is a reality warper. Since he won the game, he won.

My main point, though, was that I had kinda forgotten that she was ranked that high, and if she's mainly focused on defense/healing, well, she must be really, really good at them.

[Optimystik]

Getting back to topic:

While I agree that all bets are off for Bankai now (thanks to Soi Fon's bazooka) I don't think Gin's will be that way. It might not be related to his shikai, though.

Bankai seem to be related somewhat to their user's personality. In addition to Gin's Bankai, we have Gin's Arrancar form which will probably be based on an animal of some kind. I think one of the two will be a Fox, that seems to fit his appearance and attitude to a tee.

I also posted to draw attention to my new avatar, and shamelessly plug the master stick artist Neoseph7 :smallbiggrin:

[Boo]

I guarantee you it will not be fox related.

It would be funny, however, if it were Tanuki related.

[Primal Fury]

I don't know about Gin's bankai, could be anything, but my bet is on something to do with serpents. He even looks like one. Dude is ugly. :smallyuk:

His hollow form (can't spell the word right now) is probably going to break the most important evil overlord rule: Don't turn into a snake. It never helps.

[Optimystik]

A lot of people are thinking snake, but I think Renji already has that ground covered.


I guarantee you it will not be fox related.

What makes you think that? Thematically, he fits the japanese kitsune mold to a tee. Cunning trickster, eyes always closed, very powerful, white hair. (Particularly a yako, the more malicious type.)

[Innis Cabal]

A lot of people are thinking snake, but I think Renji already has that ground covered.



What makes you think that? Thematically, he fits the japanese kitsune mold to a tee. Cunning trickster, eyes always closed, very powerful, white hair. (Particularly a yako, the more malicious type.)

They've already used the snake analogy, and the half lidded eyes isn't just a kitsune trope its a snake trope as well.

My bet, as it was on the first post, was snake theme.

[Optimystik]

They've already used the snake analogy, and the half lidded eyes isn't just a kitsune trope its a snake trope as well.

That's true - I did forget Rukia's speech about him.
But it wouldn't be the first time Tite set up a nice fat red herring in our way. (Cases in point... Nel, Isshin, and freaking Yammy.)

Perhaps the "snake" aspect was represented by his Shikai. I can't say for certain whether that would make his Bankai more likely to follow suit, or less.

[Drolyt]

I highly doubt Gin has a Ressurecion. Aizen seems to believe that acquiring hollow powers is beneath him, and as the only subordinate Aizen actually cares about it wouldn't make much sense for Gin to have have hollowfied.

[Optimystik]

I highly doubt Gin has a Ressurecion. Aizen seems to believe that acquiring hollow powers is beneath him, and as the only subordinate Aizen actually cares about it wouldn't make much sense for Gin to have have hollowfied.

There's a lot here I don't agree with:

1) I don't think Aizen cares about anyone, not even Gin.

2) Aizen never said Hollow powers were beneath him. His exact words were that he would not undergo hollowification, i.e. the process as we currently understand it. But the entire purpose of the Hougyoku is dissolving the barrier between Shinigami and Hollow - Aizen's speech in chapter 175 (to Ichigo and Rukia on the hill) makes this clear. So for him to change his mind and say "my powers have nothing to do with hollows!" makes no sense to me.

3) Gaining masks is the only way that Tousen and Gin could have become so much stronger than the Arrancar so quickly. They didn't have the 'training montage' that the captains did.

4) Even if Aizen himself is able to exceed normal shinigami limits without acquiring any hollow attributes at all, we can't reliably apply the same to Gin - he doesn't have a Hougyoku in his chest.

[Drolyt]

There's a lot here I don't agree with:

1) I don't think Aizen cares about anyone, not even Gin.

2) Aizen never said Hollow powers were beneath him. His exact words were that he would not undergo hollowification, i.e. the process as we currently understand it. But the entire purpose of the Hougyoku is dissolving the barrier between Shinigami and Hollow - Aizen's speech in chapter 175 (to Ichigo and Rukia on the hill) makes this clear. So for him to change his mind and say "my powers have nothing to do with hollows!" makes no sense to me.

3) Gaining masks is the only way that Tousen and Gin could have become so much stronger than the Arrancar so quickly. They didn't have the 'training montage' that the captains did.

4) Even if Aizen himself is able to exceed normal shinigami limits without acquiring any hollow attributes at all, we can't reliably apply the same to Gin - he doesn't have a Hougyoku in his chest.

Okay, you are probably right about #1. #2 is besides the point thought I still think that if Gin has any kind of hollow powers it won't be what we've seen so far. #3 I'm not certain on. #4 true we cannot say for sure that we can apply the same to Gin, but I think we can. Gin was built up much more than Tousen was, he's been made all mysterious. I think he'll play a more important part in the story than Tousen.

[Revlid]

I don't believe there's a single Bankai that has nothing to do with its Shikai, but whatever.

I've revised my idea for Gin's Bankai - a giant snake, with extending Shinso-swords for scales. Think Orochimaru's "true form" in Naruto, but with swords rather than snakes.

[Optimystik]

#2 is besides the point thought I still think that if Gin has any kind of hollow powers it won't be what we've seen so far.

I'm fine with them being different in some way, but that's not the same as saying he won't have any at all.

I definitely think hollow abilities will play some part in this fight, particularly if he brings the hollow out of Ichigo.


#4 true we cannot say for sure that we can apply the same to Gin, but I think we can. Gin was built up much more than Tousen was, he's been made all mysterious. I think he'll play a more important part in the story than Tousen.

Oh I agree that he has more plot-importance than Tousen, but he still has no Hougyoku. Though perhaps Aizen used it on him...


Incidentally, I caught something interesting - Tite Kubo did some masterful foreshadowing of Hirako Shinji's zanpakuto. Remember how he was spying on Ichigo at his first appearance - hanging around upside down in midair? And also how he wrote his name backwards on the first day of class? I got whacked upside the head with Fridge Logic on that one :smalltongue:

[Drolyt]

Incidentally, I caught something interesting - Tite Kubo did some masterful foreshadowing of Hirako Shinji's zanpakuto. Remember how he was spying on Ichigo at his first appearance - hanging around upside down in midair? And also how he wrote his name backwards on the first day of class? I got whacked upside the head with Fridge Logic on that one :smalltongue:

Yeah it was pretty cool how he pulled that off. Still it didn't work very well against Aizen.

[Tavar]

Yeah it was pretty cool how he pulled that off. Still it didn't work very well against Aizen.

Well, duh. He's Evil superman, and Shinji's Bankai just bounced off.

[Optimystik]

Well, duh. He's Evil superman, and Shinji's Bankai just bounced off.

Shikai, actually - we haven't seen Shinji's Bankai yet :smalltongue:

(Of course, we haven't seen Aizen's either... :smalleek:)

[Drolyt]

Shikai, actually - we haven't seen Shinji's Bankai yet :smalltongue:

(Of course, we haven't seen Aizen's either... :smalleek:)

It's not clear that it's his Shikai, his words were "you're Bankai isn't the only one that can control the senses". However, next scene he invokes it like his Shikai. So yeah, I 'd say it is most likely his shikai, but my first instinct was that it was Bankai because of what he said.

[Kaez]

You know, I always thought Gin was more fox like then snake like, and I coulda swore they said he looked like a fox... but maybe I am wrong...

As for his Bankai, I'm interested in seeing what crazy thing his sword turns into, I don't really know what that would be, as generally the shikai has some relation to what the bankai is like (Soifons is still yellow and black like a bee, Ichigo's is still a sword, just smaller but longer, Hitsygaya's gets covered with ice in shikai when he uses the attack, and just ice related in bankai...)

Part of me really thinks that Aizen is playing with peoples senses again and actually made it look like he was getting beat up on instead of Gin, but of course he's have to do it quick making sure anyone who has survived on the battlefield see it as well.

But then again, I could imagine Gin saying something when he realizes the switch, I imagine he doesn't want to die because Aizen is a douche.

[Optimystik]

It's not clear that it's his Shikai, his words were "you're Bankai isn't the only one that can control the senses". However, next scene he invokes it like his Shikai. So yeah, I 'd say it is most likely his shikai, but my first instinct was that it was Bankai because of what he said.

Bleach Wiki has it as his Shikai.
Also, in the scan I'm reading (Ju-Ni) he says "Do you think your Kyouka Suigetsu is the only Zanpakuto capable of controlling the senses?"

Finally, his release command is a shikai release: "Collapse, Sakanade."


Part of me really thinks that Aizen is playing with peoples senses again and actually made it look like he was getting beat up on instead of Gin, but of course he's have to do it quick making sure anyone who has survived on the battlefield see it as well.

But then again, I could imagine Gin saying something when he realizes the switch, I imagine he doesn't want to die because Aizen is a douche.

How far have you gotten? He's already revealed that he was fooling the captains yet again.

But I have a feeling that Isshin hasn't been tricked by his Shikai yet either.

[Binks]

Incidentally, I caught something interesting - Tite Kubo did some masterful foreshadowing of Hirako Shinji's zanpakuto...

Yeah that was pretty awesome foreshadowing, subtle enough to miss but pretty obvious once we saw his release.


I don't believe there's a single Bankai that has nothing to do with its Shikai, but whatever.

No, but there are plenty that are only loosely related (Soifon, Ichigo, Tosen, etc). Gin's Bankai probably has something to do with his Shikai, but that could be anything from a gun-like quality (since he 'shoots' his shikai) to being large (his shikai can get rather long) to having something to do with any trickster sort of animal (since his shikai is surprisingly effective). Or something else entirely.

[TSGames]

Hopefully his Bankai does this:

http://mantequillaconazucar.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/finglonger.jpg

[Drolyt]

Bleach Wiki has it as his Shikai.
Also, in the scan I'm reading (Ju-Ni) he says "Do you think your Kyouka Suigetsu is the only Zanpakuto capable of controlling the senses?"

Finally, his release command is a shikai release: "Collapse, Sakanade."


I agree, it must have been Shikai. The reason people are thinking it's his Bankai is the translation I read, I think it's sleepyfans, which honestly doesn't make any sense because Aizen's sensory control thing isn't a Bankai either, so why would they translate it "yours isn't the only Bankai that can control the senses"?

[Callos_DeTerran]

Even for her, this kind of injury can be a problem. Remember what happened with Kuchiki Byakuya or Tōshirō Hitsugaya when Azien revealed himself? She couldn't heal them instantly, and if anything this is worse. And there are many more people who need her help, like the one who was cut in half, or pretty much every captain.

Unohana is both there, hasn't revealed her bankai, and only trails behind Aizen and Yamamoto by a whopping 20 points.

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090204001239/bleach/en/images/thumb/e/eb/Unohana.jpg/190px-Unohana.jpg

And scary as it is, her offense is at a 100 out of a 100. Not to mention Kyoraku mentions he'd rather face Yamamoto's bankai then make Unohana mad. This may just be hyperbole or there could be truth to it. In any case, why would she spend her vast healing talent on Vice-Captains when they are still mid-battle, the only enemies left are Gin and Aizen (that are known), and there's allies on the field much more capable of HURTING those two then vice-captains. Like...potentially Yamamoto, Shiniji, the other vizard, Captain Blood-cough, etc.

As for a training montage never shown for them, there never needed to be one. Remember Espada no. 2's flashback? Gin and Tousen destroyed Barragon's little army with ease. They were obviously strong enough in the first place (this may or may not be after hollowification though).

And the source for all the info on Unohana is one of the databooks which, unless Aizen used his illusion powers on a completely separate book, we have to take as fact.

[Drolyt]

And the source for all the info on Unohana is one of the databooks which, unless Aizen used his illusion powers on a completely separate book, we have to take as fact.

While, just a couple weeks ago he used his illusion powers on the readers when he apparently got stabbed but oh not really that was an illusion. Even though we could read his thoughts, he somehow made those an illusion as well. Also you are talking about the Databooks where Kenpachi is the weakest captain. I don't think they can be trusted.

[Callos_DeTerran]

While, just a couple weeks ago he used his illusion powers on the readers when he apparently got stabbed but oh not really that was an illusion. Even though we could read his thoughts, he somehow made those an illusion as well. Also you are talking about the Databooks where Kenpachi is the weakest captain. I don't think they can be trusted.

Kenpachi is the weakest captain. Doesn't use kido, doesn't have a bankai, or none of that. I'm not saying he's not incredibly badass but the only reason he beat Tousen was a fluke. He beat Nnoittra because they were essentially the same damn thing (just different sides). Hell, he's fighting Byakuya/Yammy, right now and Byakuya isn't even using his shikai to fight him.

It's hard to believe Kenpachi has done as well as he has honestly.

[Drolyt]

Kenpachi is the weakest captain. Doesn't use kido, doesn't have a bankai, or none of that. I'm not saying he's not incredibly badass but the only reason he beat Tousen was a fluke. He beat Nnoittra because they were essentially the same damn thing (just different sides). Hell, he's fighting Byakuya/Yammy, right now and Byakuya isn't even using his shikai to fight him.

It's hard to believe Kenpachi has done as well as he has honestly.

Kenpachi did not defeat Tousen because of a fluke. Kenpachi is simply more powerful than Tousen, the only way Tousen could challenge him was through a Bankai that is honestly almost as hacks as Aizen's but Kenpachi got through that because he was a better fighter. Kenpachi also held his own against the wolf guy.

Moreover there is the whole fact that Ichigo defeated Kenpachi, then Byakuya, but barely managed to defeat Grimmjow who was supposedly weaker than Noitra, who Kenpachi then pwnd. The most obvious explanation is that Ichigo had bonuses in the captain fights he did not have when fighting Grimmjow, namely against Kenpachi he only won because of his Zanpakuto Spirit and against Byakuya he only won because of Shirosaki/Hichigo/that Hollow Spirit Thing.

There's also the fact that originally Ichigo could not even cut Kenpachi because of Kenpachi's awesome Reiatsu. Ichigo was almost certainly stronger than any lieutenant at that point, yet Tousen's lieutenant could kill him even though he was using Ressurecion, supposedly more powerful than Bankai.

I don't think you are giving Kenpachi enough credit. He's obviously got one of the highest Reiatsus in the Bleachverse. If he had Bankai and Kido he would probably be stronger than Yammamoto.

[TheSummoner]

Calling any of the captains weak is a bit of a stretch. However, Kenpachi is definatly the least rounded Captain... I doubt anyone could provide a good arguement against that. His strengths outshine the rest, but hes essentially limited to overwhelming force. Compare him to say... Byakuya or Kyoraku who are both ranked at 70-90 all around.

Unohana's power is more of an informed ability than anything else... but considering that Squad 11... and hell, even other Captains are afraid to make her mad, I wouldn't count her out.

[Optimystik]

In any case, why would she spend her vast healing talent on Vice-Captains when they are still mid-battle, the only enemies left are Gin and Aizen (that are known), and there's allies on the field much more capable of HURTING those two then vice-captains. Like...potentially Yamamoto, Shiniji, the other vizard, Captain Blood-cough, etc.

I have no doubt those three (or at least the first two) will be instrumental at going after Aizen, but narratively they have no relationship at all to Gin.

What you're suggesting, would be like if Hitsugaya had shown up in Hueco Mundo to destroy Grimmjow and save Ichigo. It makes no sense in the story, therefore it wouldn't happen.

Matsumoto has a partial flashback with Gin that we haven't seen all of yet. She is also the only person or thing that he could have remotely regretted leaving behind when he went to Hueco Mundo with Aizen. Why would Tite go to all the trouble of establishing that connection only to ignore it?

The same goes for Kira.


As for a training montage never shown for them, there never needed to be one. Remember Espada no. 2's flashback? Gin and Tousen destroyed Barragon's little army with ease. They were obviously strong enough in the first place (this may or may not be after hollowification though).

Aizen could have hollowified both captains anytime between 100 years ago (when he first created the Vizard) and the Karakura assault. We can't draw any conclusions about their state until we know exactly when he did it to Tosen, at least.

As for "weakest captain" I'd give that honor to Komamura, the Worf (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheWorfEffect) of the Gotei 13.

[Tavar]

but barely managed to defeat Grimmjow who was supposedly weaker than Noitra, who Kenpachi then pwnd.
Well, for most of the grimmjow fight he was still having problems with his Vizard skills, and afterwards he was wounded. Or, at least, that's how I interpreted it.




There's also the fact that originally Ichigo could not even cut Kenpachi because of Kenpachi's awesome Reiatsu. Ichigo was almost certainly stronger than any lieutenant at that point, yet Tousen's lieutenant could kill him even though he was using Ressurecion, supposedly more powerful than Bankai.

I think in the first part, it's partially because even though Ichigo has the power, his will is weak. Kenpachi intimidated him, and until he got over his fear, he couldn't hurt him. That's actually something of a theme with him, as remember right after the shattered shaft? Kisuke Urahara said how his motivations wrong, with him feeling fear instead of determination. Also, Kenpachi makes a habit of holding back. I think that he simply didn't feel the need to hold back as much against their current foes, so he's less impaired later on in the fights.

Tousen's lieutenant lacked this fear, plus he was able to get a surprise attack in.


I have no doubt those three (or at least the first two) will be instrumental at going after Aizen, but narratively they have no relationship at all to Gin.

What you're suggesting, would be like if Hitsugaya had shown up in Hueco Mundo to destroy Grimmjow and save Ichigo. It makes no sense in the story, therefore it wouldn't happen.

Matsumoto has a partial flashback with Gin that we haven't seen all of yet. She is also the only person or thing that he could have remotely regretted leaving behind when he went to Hueco Mundo with Aizen. Why would Tite go to all the trouble of establishing that connection only to ignore it?

The same goes for Kira.

I think it depends on whether he's simply beaten, or if he's talked down. If the latter, I think that they'll have a part. If the former, I don't think they will.

[Optimystik]

I think it depends on whether he's simply beaten, or if he's talked down. If the latter, I think that they'll have a part. If the former, I don't think they will.

All of these fights have involved talking. "What is justice?!" He doesn't strike me as the type of guy to mindlessly follow Aizen because he likes killing (i.e. Nnoitra) or even to non-mindlessly follow Aizen because he likes killing (i.e. Grimmjow.) Ergo, he has some reason for doing so besides being bloodthirsty, and finding out what that is should involve Matsumoto in some way.

Care to wager 100 zeni on it?

[ZeroNumerous]

Why would Tite go to all the trouble of establishing that connection only to ignore it?

The same goes for Kira.

Because he, like Kishimoto, loves trolling his fan base.

[Optimystik]

Because he, like Kishimoto, loves trolling his fan base.

That's a possibility, but doesn't quite fit his track record for narrative fights - Komamura AND Hisagi take down Tousen, Ichigo AND Orihime take down Ulquiorra, Ichigo takes down Grimmjow, Rukia takes down Kaien Aaroniero... those are exactly the combatants you'd expect given established events.

[ZeroNumerous]

That's a possibility, but doesn't quite fit his track record for narrative fights - Komamura AND Hisagi take down Tousen, Ichigo AND Orihime take down Ulquiorra, Ichigo takes down Grimmjow, Rukia takes down Kaien Aaroniero... those are exactly the combatants you'd expect given established events.

Conversely: Renji lost against Byakuya. Ichigo narrowly lost against Byakuya. The 0th Arrancar comes out of no where and, despite having torn Chad's arms up prior, is defeated by Byakuya+Kenpachi. He has a running track record of throwing the convention away as well.

Further: Ichigo lost to Ulquiorra all around, until it's revealed that he has yet another transformation. Showing that the counter-convention of designated villain defeated by someone else is on even ground with the convention of designated hero defeating designated villain.

My money is on yet another troll and maybe even Aizen will just randomly decide to kill Gin.

[Optimystik]

Conversely: Renji lost against Byakuya. Ichigo narrowly lost against Byakuya.

Right, but at least they fought. Matsumoto/Kira have yet to cross blades with Gin in any capacity.


He has a running track record of throwing the convention away as well.

I disagree - see above.


Further: Ichigo lost to Ulquiorra all around, until it's revealed that he has yet another transformation. Showing that the counter-convention of designated villain defeated by someone else is on even ground with the convention of designated hero defeating designated villain.

Uh, what?

He would have never even gotten to that transformation if not for Orihime. First, she interfered in his fight by saving him with a barrier (chapter 341); second, after Ulquiorra blew a hole in Ichigo's chest, she's the one that called him back and caused him to Hollow up (#349).


My money is on yet another troll and maybe even Aizen will just randomly decide to kill Gin.

100 Zeni it is, then.


The 0th Arrancar comes out of no where and, despite having torn Chad's arms up prior, is defeated by Byakuya+Kenpachi.

This is the one example you've shown of an actual red herring. But of course, Yammy being the strongest one was meant to be a shock to everyone. All bets were off at that point.

[Drolyt]

I agree with Optimystik insofar as I think they will be inolved in the battle, but I doubt they'll be the ones to defeat Gin. That would just be anticlimactic. Also I don't think Yammy's dead yet, maybe I missed that.

[ZeroNumerous]

Right, but at least they fought. Matsumoto/Kira have yet to cross blades with Gin in any capacity.

They fought, granted, but it didn't serve any purpose other than watching Renji getting slapped down. Just as Matsumoto/Kira showing up may prove to be completely unremotely related to Gin's defeat. Narrative casualty for the genre would require the protagonist to defeat his rival, but as the Renji-v-Byakuya + Byakuya-v-Ichigo examples prove: This is not always true for Bleach.


I disagree - see above.

Nonetheless, Byakuya is still 2:0 to Ichigo. And Aizen's appearance might make it an unresolved karmic battle.


He would have never even gotten to that transformation if not for Orihime. First, she interfered in his fight by saving him with a barrier (chapter 341); second, after Ulquiorra blew a hole in Ichigo's chest, she's the one that called him back and caused him to Hollow up (#349).

None of which really matters as Ichigo himself never defeated Ulquiorra. Ichigo's hollow half/inner hollow/whatever it's name is now defeated it for him. Narratively, it would have been appropriate for Ichigo to kill Ulquiorra to show how much better he's gotten since last time #4 wiped the floor with him. Unfortunately, instead of that Ulquiorra get's Deus Ex'd to death by Ichigo's inner hollow. This certainly goes counter to the other examples you gave.


This is the one example you've shown of an actual red herring. But of course, Yammy being the strongest one was meant to be a shock to everyone. All bets were off at that point.

A shock? I disagree, it was meant to be a "wut a tweest" moment, but it just came out as idiotic.

EDIT:


Also I don't think Yammy's dead yet, maybe I missed that.

I don't think so either, but as far as I'm concerned he may as well be.

[Closet_Skeleton]

They were obviously strong enough in the first place (this may or may not be after hollowification though).

It's usually claimed to be before they got Hougoku because Aizen is wearing his glasses.

[Optimystik]

They fought, granted, but it didn't serve any purpose other than watching Renji getting slapped down.

You couldn't be more wrong here. That fight is the only thing that made Byakuya finally respect Renji. "Your fangs definitely reached me." (#144)

Their moment later in the infirmary (rudely interrupted by Ichigo/Orihime thought it was) could never have happened had it not been for that fight.


Narrative casualty for the genre would require the protagonist to defeat his rival, but as the Renji-v-Byakuya + Byakuya-v-Ichigo examples prove: This is not always true for Bleach.

I don't know where you got the idea that "narratively important battle" = "protagonist wins"; in fact, I can't think of any shonen anime where the protagonist wins every important fight. Often, the protagonists can learn just as much about themselves from being defeated.


Nonetheless, Byakuya is still 2:0 to Ichigo. And Aizen's appearance might make it an unresolved karmic battle.

How'd you get that score? I'm pretty sure he lost to Ichigo on Sokyoku Hill. "Kurosagi Ichigo - your freedom has shattered my blade. I can no longer pursue Rukia." (#167)


None of which really matters as Ichigo himself never defeated Ulquiorra. Ichigo's hollow half/inner hollow/whatever it's name is now defeated it for him.

While once I would have agreed with you and said that Hollow Ichigo is a separate being, that is clearly no longer true. And we have clear evidence.

Note his monologue in hollow form while fighting Ulquiorra. Before, his hollow self was simply obsessed with battle and cutting people up. Nothing at all in there about protecting Orihime. This one constantly repeats "I WILL PROTECT YOU." (#350) In other words, that thing was Ichigo, however bestial it became.

So no, none of my examples were countered, except by Yammy, which the entire fanbase agrees is an asspull.

[ZeroNumerous]

You couldn't be more wrong here. That fight is the only thing that made Byakuya finally respect Renji. "Your fangs definitely reached me." (#144)

He acknowledged that Renji had gained a bankai, not that he respected him or that they were equals. Given how he treats Ichigo(who is definitely his equal at this point), I doubt that Renji will ever get Byakuya's respect. Ultimately, the scene showed nothing but Renji losing.


I don't know where you got the idea that "narratively important battle" = "protagonist wins"; in fact, I can't think of any shonen anime where the protagonist wins every important fight. Often, the protagonists can learn just as much about themselves from being defeated.

Watching Matsumoto/Kira die(which, given Gin probably also has a Resurreccion, is probably what would happen if they fought) would only serve one real purpose: To show Gin's a monster. Which we already knew. If they got involved in the fight it would only detract from Ichigo's inevitable victory. Also: Off the top of my head TTGL, later DBZ, and Gamaran if you count manga. Any fight actually relevant to the story is won by the protagonist.


How'd you get that score? I'm pretty sure he lost to Ichigo on Sokyoku Hill. "Kurosagi Ichigo - your freedom has shattered my blade. I can no longer pursue Rukia." (#167)

First meeting + The hill. Yielding is not the same thing as defeat, it simply means you've stopped fighting. If you note, in 167 Ichigo falls first. He simply lacks the survival instinct that Byakuya has.


While once I would have agreed with you and said that Hollow Ichigo is a separate being, that is clearly no longer true. And we have clear evidence.

Note his monologue in hollow form while fighting Ulquiorra. Before, his hollow self was simply obsessed with battle and cutting people up. Nothing at all in there about protecting Orihime. This one constantly repeats "I WILL PROTECT YOU." (#350) In other words, that thing was Ichigo, however bestial it became.

Arguable. Every other non-filler appearance by Hollow Ichigo has kept Ichigo's goal(kill that guy) intact as well.

[Optimystik]

He acknowledged that Renji had gained a bankai, not that he respected him or that they were equals.

1) You don't have to be equals with someone to respect them.

2) He knew Renji had Bankai the minute he used it. The "fangs" comment was a reference to Renji's determination, not his power level.


Given how he treats Ichigo(who is definitely his equal at this point), I doubt that Renji will ever get Byakuya's respect. Ultimately, the scene showed nothing but Renji losing.

Oh come on. He disrespects Renji so much that he gave him a piece of his own uniform after the fight?

You're seriously misinterpreting the subject matter here.


Watching Matsumoto/Kira die(which, given Gin probably also has a Resurreccion, is probably what would happen if they fought) would only serve one real purpose: To show Gin's a monster.

Because Hisagi died, right?


First meeting + The hill. Yielding is not the same thing as defeat, it simply means you've stopped fighting. If you note, in 167 Ichigo falls first. He simply lacks the survival instinct that Byakuya has.

He flat-out said Ichigo broke his sword. What part of that don't you get?


Arguable. Every other non-filler appearance by Hollow Ichigo has kept Ichigo's goal(kill that guy) intact as well.

You do realize that his hollow changed dramatically after that whole inner battle in the Vizard camp, right? You know, the entire point of that scene?

[ZeroNumerous]

1) You don't have to be equals with someone to respect them.

2) He knew Renji had Bankai the minute he used it. The "fangs" comment was a reference to Renji's determination, not his power level.



Oh come on. He disrespects Renji so much that he gave him a piece of his own uniform after the fight?

You're seriously misinterpreting the subject matter here.

I'll give you that one.


Because Hisagi died, right?

Hisagi got a sneak attack on a melee-only fighter. Gin is neither stupid, power-obsessed nor melee-only. He'd definitely kill one or both of them.


He flat-out said Ichigo broke his sword. What part of that don't you get?

The part where his sword is made of tiny swords that can be broken up and reformed at will. You saw his bankai, didn't you? Granted that he did yield, but I think you're taking a poetic comment a bit too literally.


You do realize that his hollow changed dramatically after that whole inner battle in the Vizard camp, right? You know, the entire point of that scene?

I thought the entire point of that scene was so he could use his mask without experiencing vertigo. Which was the entire point of going to the Vizards in the first place.

[Optimystik]

Hisagi got a sneak attack on a melee-only fighter. Gin is neither stupid, power-obsessed nor melee-only. He'd definitely kill one or both of them.

So Hisagi got lucky? In a way I suppose he did, but you're forgetting what made him able to land that sneak attack in the first place. Tousen had never been in his Resureccion before. He was overwhelmed by the power and sensation.

He might kill Kira - no captain left, what would he have to live for? - but I severely doubt Titty Tite Kubo is going to kill off Matsumoto.

Also, how is Tousen "melee only?" He uses kido extensively, used a sonic attack to destroy Komamura's bankai, and was even charging up a double-cero when he got jumped.


The part where his sword is made of tiny swords that can be broken up and reformed at will. You saw his bankai, didn't you? Granted that he did yield, but I think you're taking a poetic comment a bit too literally.

Actually, that's you doing that. When he said "broke my sword" he wasn't talking about Senbonzakura's ability at all. The "sword" was a metaphor for his resolve to kill Rukia. Ichigo broke it, i.e. made him stop.

He was not referring to his actual sword at all; you're the one being too literal here.


I thought the entire point of that scene was so he could use his mask without experiencing vertigo. Which was the entire point of going to the Vizards in the first place.

You're discussing the symptoms, not the cause.

Yes, he went to them to be able to use his mask at-will - but to do that, he had to control his Inner Hollow. At the end of the fight, it melts back into Zangetsu.

His IH never gave a damn about Orihime before. The fact that it only came out because she called it is a huge change.

Come to think of it, has it ever come out at someone else's call before? Somehow I doubt it.

[Drolyt]

For the record, I agree with Optimystik on this one. That said, I don't think you guys are convincing each other any time soon, and I started this thread to see if anyone had theories on Gin's bankai.

To be fair, no one seems to have anymore input, so I guess I don't mind if you want to hijack the thread, but maybe you two should start a thread about who will fight Gin, then you could maybe get some outside opinions.

[Innis Cabal]

So everyone. The chapter is out sort of. Anyone wanting to know his real bankai read the spoiler below. You were warned.

It makes his sword grow in length to that of one hundred swords. Pretty lame.

[13_CBS]

So everyone. The chapter is out sort of. Anyone wanting to know his real bankai read the spoiler below. You were warned.

It makes his sword grow in length to that of one hundred swords. Pretty lame.

Maybe it has extra forms the way Byakuya's and Tousen's do?

[TheSummoner]

I doubt thats all there is to it... Gin doesn't seem like the kind who would let his opponent know everything up front. My money is still on the sword being able to twist and turn and weave in all sorts of directions incredibly fast.

[Innis Cabal]

Maybe it has extra forms the way Byakuya's and Tousen's do?

Unknown, he gets hit by Ichigo at the end of the chapter. So another week till we find out.

He -does- have a move with it, but its just a big swing

[Tavar]

Unknown, he gets hit by Ichigo at the end of the chapter. So another week till we find out.

He -does- have a move with it, but its just a big swing

There better be more. Otherwise, his first release sounds just as good, if not better.

[Drolyt]

Interesting. I'll have more to say when I actually see a scan.

[Revanmal]

So everyone. The chapter is out sort of. Anyone wanting to know his real bankai read the spoiler below. You were warned.

It makes his sword grow in length to that of one hundred swords. Pretty lame.

Wait, what?

That just sounds like his Skikai. :smallconfused: Where the heck did you find this information? Sauce, plox.

[Drolyt]

Wait, what?

That just sounds like his Skikai. :smallconfused: Where the heck did you find this information? Sauce, plox.

Yeah, I'm not entirely certain what he meant by that, but I read it like the Bleach games where it splits into a crapload of swords and skewers everything in sight. I guess I won't really know until I see a scan.

[Innis Cabal]

LINK CONTAINS SPOILERS

http://forum.onemanga.com/showthread.php?t=73554

[Callos_DeTerran]

Kenpachi did not defeat Tousen because of a fluke. Kenpachi is simply more powerful than Tousen, the only way Tousen could challenge him was through a Bankai that is honestly almost as hacks as Aizen's but Kenpachi got through that because he was a better fighter. Kenpachi also held his own against the wolf guy.

Kenpachi defeated Tousen because he figured out the blindness thing and was crazy enough to exploit the 'advantage' it gave. It didn't help that Tousen was careless enough to actually let Kenpachi grab hold of his zanpakuto.

So...yeah. Kenpachi got through because he was clever and Tousen was overconfident. And to the point, Kenpachi never really FOUGHT Kommamura. He withstood Captain Wolfhead's shikai but he didn't get a chance to fight the bankai because that's when the whole Execution bit started and Kommamura ran off to where he thought Yamamoto was.


Moreover there is the whole fact that Ichigo defeated Kenpachi, then Byakuya, but barely managed to defeat Grimmjow who was supposedly weaker than Noitra, who Kenpachi then pwnd. The most obvious explanation is that Ichigo had bonuses in the captain fights he did not have when fighting Grimmjow, namely against Kenpachi he only won because of his Zanpakuto Spirit and against Byakuya he only won because of Shirosaki/Hichigo/that Hollow Spirit Thing.

You must have a different definition of 'pwn' then me. :smallwink: Kenapchi admits himself that Nnoitra was coming close to actually killing him and so he had to use both hands. More importantly, Kenpachi was in even worse condition after that fight then the one he had with Ichigo (where he was still conscious and considered it a lose) so he was pretty much telling the truth about being close to death.


There's also the fact that originally Ichigo could not even cut Kenpachi because of Kenpachi's awesome Reiatsu. Ichigo was almost certainly stronger than any lieutenant at that point, yet Tousen's lieutenant could kill him even though he was using Ressurecion, supposedly more powerful than Bankai.

Ichigo couldn't cut Kenpachi not because of he lacked the power to, but because he lacked the killer instinct/will power/resolve to hone his own reiatsu fine enough to cut Kenpachi. That's less a testament to Kenpachi's absurd durability and more to the inexperience of Ichigo. This is not to say I don't think Kenpachi doesn't have an impressive reiatsu, but rather it's not what stopped Ichigo from cutting him. Ichigo was what was keeping Ichigo from cutting Kenpachi.


I don't think you are giving Kenpachi enough credit. He's obviously got one of the highest Reiatsus in the Bleachverse. If he had Bankai and Kido he would probably be stronger than Yammamoto.

I give Kenpachi the credit he deserves based on what he has done and against what sort of opponents, without inflating those deeds based on how badass they are. :smallwink: He's got good enough reiatsu to mimic a hierro-like effect, he's a crazy fighter and strong...But I wouldn't say he's strong (for a captain) by a long shot. Hitsugaya, Soi Fon, Byakuya, Mayuri, Shunsiu, and Yamamoto could defeat him with such ridiculous ease it's almost frighting and Ukitake probably could to, considering his bankai has never been seen. Kommamura stands a chance, at least, but it's not as sure a thing for him.

In other words, I'm saying Kenpachi is a badass of large proportions...among badasses of large proportions that make him seem less badass by comparison (even if he isn't) and that those stats should be taken as accurate because of that.

[Optimystik]

Ugh. Gin's Bankai is a letdown, assuming the source is accurate.
Hopefully there's more to it than that.

I'm really looking forward to Ukitake, Aizen and Yamamoto's though.


Kenpachi defeated Tousen because he figured out the blindness thing and was crazy enough to exploit the 'advantage' it gave. It didn't help that Tousen was careless enough to actually let Kenpachi grab hold of his zanpakuto.

So...yeah. Kenpachi got through because he was clever and Tousen was overconfident. And to the point, Kenpachi never really FOUGHT Kommamura. He withstood Captain Wolfhead's shikai but he didn't get a chance to fight the bankai because that's when the whole Execution bit started and Kommamura ran off to where he thought Yamamoto was.

You must have a different definition of 'pwn' then me. :smallwink: Kenapchi admits himself that Nnoitra was coming close to actually killing him and so he had to use both hands. More importantly, Kenpachi was in even worse condition after that fight then the one he had with Ichigo (where he was still conscious and considered it a lose) so he was pretty much telling the truth about being close to death.

Ichigo couldn't cut Kenpachi not because of he lacked the power to, but because he lacked the killer instinct/will power/resolve to hone his own reiatsu fine enough to cut Kenpachi. That's less a testament to Kenpachi's absurd durability and more to the inexperience of Ichigo. This is not to say I don't think Kenpachi doesn't have an impressive reiatsu, but rather it's not what stopped Ichigo from cutting him. Ichigo was what was keeping Ichigo from cutting Kenpachi.

Agreed with all this.


I give Kenpachi the credit he deserves based on what he has done and against what sort of opponents, without inflating those deeds based on how badass they are. :smallwink: He's got good enough reiatsu to mimic a hierro-like effect, he's a crazy fighter and strong...But I wouldn't say he's strong (for a captain) by a long shot. Hitsugaya, Soi Fon, Byakuya, Mayuri, Shunsiu, and Yamamoto could defeat him with such ridiculous ease it's almost frighting and Ukitake probably could to, considering his bankai has never been seen. Kommamura stands a chance, at least, but it's not as sure a thing for him.

Now here is where you lost me... it seems that you lack an understanding of how Kenpachi's fighting works. It's easy to dismiss him as the weakest captain because he has no Bankai, but that is a mistake.

Kenpachi is about raw power; no tricks. Even a regular bankai is a trick, because before you bring it out you're just playing around - hiding what your sword can really do or what it really looks like. Rather, Kenpachi is what you could call the ultimate power-type. He's so much about raw power in fact, that his sword has absolutely nothing to contribute to his fights. I honestly think that if he took the time to learn his sword's name and rely on its bankai, he would actually become weaker.

Kenpachi fights by releasing his own, personal power in stages. First normal, then losing the eyepatch, and then using both hands. Note that his sword plays no part in that entire process - it's the same sword! No new shape, no new abilities, and still no name. Yamamoto understood immediately how he fights; thus, he taught him Kendo so that he could use his personal power even more efficiently.

The captains you listed being able to beat him - I agree with some, but not so much with others. Byakuya would be a difficult fight - getting the petals to reach him, never mind cut him, is not as easy as it sounds. And his spirit energy could blast away most kido that Byakuya could try to contain him with. But Byakuya is certainly faster, and I think Senkei could pressurize the blades enough to let Zaraki be cut. Yamamoto is obvious; he's a power-type too.

Soi Fon and Mayuri, he would definitely beat. They both rely on the ultimate trick - poison. But overwhelming force reduces that trick to nothing. Aizen proved that when he completely eradicated Soi Fon's Homounka, and I have little doubts that Zaraki can do the same, even if Soi Fon could penetrate his skin to put one on him to begin with.

Kyoraku could beat him, but not with his Shikai like he did with Stark - the children's games are deadly, but still tricks. He'd probably have to bring his bankai out. Ukitake uses your own force against you, so he would stand a chance, but the sickness would probably mess him up before the battle was concluded.

Hitsugaya, I'm not sure of. His potential is second only to Ichigo, so it would depend on how much of that potential was brought out during the fight. His zanpakuto is also about sheer power though (like Yamamoto's), even though he himself is still a child.

[Drolyt]

Kenpachi defeated Tousen because he figured out the blindness thing and was crazy enough to exploit the 'advantage' it gave. It didn't help that Tousen was careless enough to actually let Kenpachi grab hold of his zanpakuto.
What advantage? Before using Bankai Tousen couldn't even touch Kenpachi. After using Bankai it seemed he might win but Kenpachi found out how to beat it. Fact is Kenpachi is stronger than Tousen however you look at it, and I doubt Ressurecion would have made a difference.

So...yeah. Kenpachi got through because he was clever and Tousen was overconfident. And to the point, Kenpachi never really FOUGHT Kommamura. He withstood Captain Wolfhead's shikai but he didn't get a chance to fight the bankai because that's when the whole Execution bit started and Kommamura ran off to where he thought Yamamoto was.
It's implied that they fought at least a little, I don't remember if Kommamura used Bankai but there's also the fact that Kenpachi was confident that he could defeat both of them at once, it's a bit of a stretch to say that was just overconfidence.

You must have a different definition of 'pwn' then me. :smallwink: Kenapchi admits himself that Nnoitra was coming close to actually killing him and so he had to use both hands. More importantly, Kenpachi was in even worse condition after that fight then the one he had with Ichigo (where he was still conscious and considered it a lose) so he was pretty much telling the truth about being close to death.
While it's true that Kenpachi admitted his wounds were becoming severe throughout that fight he was never in any doubt about the victor and didn't even consider Nnoitra a worthy opponent like he does Ichigo. I'd call that pwn.

Ichigo couldn't cut Kenpachi not because of he lacked the power to, but because he lacked the killer instinct/will power/resolve to hone his own reiatsu fine enough to cut Kenpachi. That's less a testament to Kenpachi's absurd durability and more to the inexperience of Ichigo. This is not to say I don't think Kenpachi doesn't have an impressive reiatsu, but rather it's not what stopped Ichigo from cutting him. Ichigo was what was keeping Ichigo from cutting Kenpachi.

Kenpachi's exact words were that the reiatsu he leaked unconsciously was stronger than the reiatsu Ichigo honed into a fighting blade. This was after he defeated Renji. Remember that Renji alone of the Lieutenants was close to achieving Bankai, and also that when the other Lieutenants heard about Renji's defeat they were in total shock. This leads me to believe that Renji was the strongest Lieutenant. What this leads to inevitably is that Kenpachi's reiatsu is significantly greater than that of Tousen in his ressurecion.


I give Kenpachi the credit he deserves based on what he has done and against what sort of opponents, without inflating those deeds based on how badass they are. :smallwink: He's got good enough reiatsu to mimic a hierro-like effect, he's a crazy fighter and strong...But I wouldn't say he's strong (for a captain) by a long shot. Hitsugaya, Soi Fon, Byakuya, Mayuri, Shunsiu, and Yamamoto could defeat him with such ridiculous ease it's almost frighting and Ukitake probably could to, considering his bankai has never been seen. Kommamura stands a chance, at least, but it's not as sure a thing for him.
You honestly believe all those guys could defeat Kenpachi? Come on, I mean sure Yamamoto, Captain Grabass, and Captain Tuberculosis, and maybe Byakuya, but Hitsufailya, Mayuri, Soi Fon, and Kommamura? I really doubt it. Oh and Captain Mom, she could probably do it. And Aizen and probably Gin, but I digress. You are way underestimating Kenpachi based on what we've seen of his abilities.

In other words, I'm saying Kenpachi is a badass of large proportions...among badasses of large proportions that make him seem less badass by comparison (even if he isn't) and that those stats should be taken as accurate because of that.
And I completely disagree. The databooks, while official, were never claimed to be canon anyways.

[Grumman]

Linked to his original release? We have pointy rings that turn into bazookas,
Actually, those kind of fit. To me, Soifon's bankai looks less like a bazooka and more like a cruise missile. At least since the Persian Gulf War, the cruise missile has been considered a precision instrument used to destroy high-value targets: an assassination weapon. Having an artillery piece as her bankai was unexpected, but given that, a cruise missile makes sense.

Maybe if she didn't hate using it so much, she would have discovered she can guide the thing, and fire it from far enough away that she doesn't get caught in the blast.

[Revanmal]

Ugh. Gin's Bankai is a letdown, assuming the source is accurate.
Hopefully there's more to it than that.

Seriously. The thing Ichigo said intrigued me though.

"The direction you face is where your sword goes?"

Maybe I'm looking too hard, but perhaps Gin's bankai is an immense sword that's insanely fast? So quick it can move as fast as Gin's eyes? Or maybe Gin can shoot sword lasers from his eyes.

I don't know, I just really hope there's more to this than what we've found so far.

[Optimystik]

Ichigo's comment was interesting, and definitely fits with what we've seen. Back during his fight with Hitsugaya, he definitely looked at him (and even opened his eyes!) before firing Shinsou through the back of his haori.

So linking his sword with his sight might be the key to his release(s).

[Revanmal]

Ichigo's comment was interesting, and definitely fits with what we've seen. Back during his fight with Hitsugaya, he definitely looked at him (and even opened his eyes!) before firing Shinsou through the back of his haori.

So linking his sword with his sight might be the key to his release(s).

Or it might possibly have something to do with vision in general.

イチゴ　あんたの剣には何かがない～他のみんなと刀を併せた時にはわかるんだけど～
Ichigo: "There's something missing from your sword. When I crossed swords with everyone else I understood, but...
あんたはどこに向かって剣をむけているんだ～？　ここらへん覚えてない＞＜
The direction you face is where your sword goes?

I'm thinking Gin's sword might be something like Shinji's; it can distort perception or maybe space/dimensions. Maybe that's how Gin's shikai works too - Shunso doesn't grow, the space between the blade's hilt and its target shrinks, making the sword incredibly long ranged while staying just as fast. Gin controls space, giving him all the benefits of an immense weapon without the drawbacks of weight or inertia.

Oh god, I hope I'm right.

[Optimystik]

Or it might possibly have something to do with vision in general.

イチゴ　あんたの剣には何かがない～他のみんなと刀を併せた時にはわかるんだけど～
Ichigo: "There's something missing from your sword. When I crossed swords with everyone else I understood, but...
あんたはどこに向かって剣をむけているんだ～？　ここらへん覚えてない＞＜
The direction you face is where your sword goes?

I'm thinking Gin's sword might be something like Shinji's; it can distort perception or maybe space/dimensions. Maybe that's how Gin's shikai works too - Shunso doesn't grow, the space between the blade's hilt and its target shrinks, making the sword incredibly long ranged while staying just as fast. Gin controls space, giving him all the benefits of an immense weapon without the drawbacks of weight or inertia.

Oh god, I hope I'm right.

Your theory does sound plausible (and quite cool, if I may say so,) but there's two inconsistencies:

1) His release command - "shoot" - implies that the sword itself is projecting, as it appears.

2) It DID shoot - so strongly in fact, that it was able to push Ichigo, his oversized cleaver, AND Jidanbou out from under an extremely heavy gate, and propel them quite some distant beyond it. I doubt a normal sword strike with distorted visuals could accomplish that - it would need some momentum to achieve that level of force.

[Revanmal]

Your theory does sound plausible (and quite cool, if I may say so,) but there's two inconsistencies:

1) His release command - "shoot" - implies that the sword itself is projecting, as it appears.

2) It DID shoot - so strongly in fact, that it was able to push Ichigo, his oversized cleaver, AND Jidanbou out from under an extremely heavy gate, and propel them quite some distant beyond it. I doubt a normal sword strike with distorted visuals could accomplish that - it would need some momentum to achieve that level of force.

Thank you kindly. You make valid points, but...

1) Bankai is usually shikai turned up to 11. Gin's shikai makes the sword itself grow in length, perhaps increasing its weight while adding a bit of extra 'oomph' to give the attack great force. Meanwhile, his bankai makes it grow relative to regular space, but with no other effects beyond an increase in volume. Its' weight remains the same, letting Gin fight with it like it weighs nothing. This means Gin can hit you from miles away as if he were right next to you. Considering how good of a swordsman he's supposed to be, that's actually pretty scary. :smalleek:

2) A sword thrust from a Captain of the Gotei 13. Gin is strong. Very strong. Assuming my above theory is true, it would make sense for his sword thrusts to be capable of forcing Ichigo and the Gate Keeper out from under the gate, especially since no force would be lost. It wouldn't be like being hit by a bullet where a greater distance equals less force hitting the target. Gin was essentially stabbing them at point-blank range due to the warping of space. Very little loss of force.

This all assumes that my idea is right, however, and I'm not too sure of my own theory. We will see, I suppose.

[Optimystik]

Thank you kindly. You make valid points, but...

1) Bankai is usually shikai turned up to 11. Gin's shikai makes the sword itself grow in length, perhaps increasing its weight while adding a bit of extra 'oomph' to give the attack great force. Meanwhile, his bankai makes it grow relative to regular space, but with no other effects beyond an increase in volume. Its' weight remains the same, letting Gin fight with it like it weighs nothing. This means Gin can hit you from miles away as if he were right next to you. Considering how good of a swordsman he's supposed to be, that's actually pretty scary. :smalleek:

Now I'm confused. First you proposed that his sword isn't actually growing in shikai, now you're saying it is. Which one is it? :smallconfused:


2) A sword thrust from a Captain of the Gotei 13. Gin is strong. Very strong. Assuming my above theory is true, it would make sense for his sword thrusts to be capable of forcing Ichigo and the Gate Keeper out from under the gate, especially since no force would be lost. It wouldn't be like being hit by a bullet where a greater distance equals less force hitting the target. Gin was essentially stabbing them at point-blank range due to the warping of space. Very little loss of force.

I get the force possibly being able to dislodge them - though personally I attribute that to Gin's sword, and not his own physical strength.

What I don't get is how it was able to propel them so far, if the sword was not actually moving/growing. If the sword is physically stretching then this is plausible, but if it's essentially an illusion then I don't see it.

[Revanmal]

Now I'm confused. First you proposed that his sword isn't actually growing in shikai, now you're saying it is. Which one is it? :smallconfused:

Let me clarify: Gin's Shikai actually causes the sword to grow. His Bankai warps space, making it appear the sword is growing when, in reality, the space between it and its target is shrinking. I wasn't very clear on that, and I had modified it a bit in the face of your evidence. Sorry I confused you.

This also rectifies your other issue:


I get the force possibly being able to dislodge them - though personally I attribute that to Gin's sword, and not his own physical strength.

What I don't get is how it was able to propel them so far, if the sword was not actually moving/growing. If the sword is physically stretching then this is plausible, but if it's essentially an illusion then I don't see it.

Since Gin's Shikai causes the sword to actually grow, they could indeed be propelled a great distance by it, as you said.

[Optimystik]

Oh, so in Shikai it grows, but in Bankai it just appears to grow? (or maybe it grows as much as it does in Shikai, then uses spatial distortion to make up the difference?)

That's possible I suppose... it's too early to say for sure. But even so, it lacks the punch of the other Bankais.

[Revanmal]

I agree. There's gotta be something more going on with this. Gin seems like far too sneaky a bastard for his Bankai to be something as simple as a bigger sword, even if it does have some special skill or attack. Or maybe it's like the Onemanga forums thinks and Kubo's just trolling us/is incompetent.

[Callos_DeTerran]

@Optimystik:
Now here is where you lost me... it seems that you lack an understanding of how Kenpachi's fighting works. It's easy to dismiss him as the weakest captain because he has no Bankai, but that is a mistake.

Kenpachi is about raw power; no tricks. Even a regular bankai is a trick, because before you bring it out you're just playing around - hiding what your sword can really do or what it really looks like. Rather, Kenpachi is what you could call the ultimate power-type. He's so much about raw power in fact, that his sword has absolutely nothing to contribute to his fights. I honestly think that if he took the time to learn his sword's name and rely on its bankai, he would actually become weaker.

Kenpachi fights by releasing his own, personal power in stages. First normal, then losing the eyepatch, and then using both hands. Note that his sword plays no part in that entire process - it's the same sword! No new shape, no new abilities, and still no name. Yamamoto understood immediately how he fights; thus, he taught him Kendo so that he could use his personal power even more efficiently.

Lemme be clear, I'm not dismissing Kenpachi because he lacks a bankai. I even applaud his fighting style and the fact he gets it to work in the first place. Hell, he's easily one of my favorite captains. I just don't hold any delusions that raw power can conquer any trick put up against him. :smallwink: But yeah...believe me, I know he plays to his strengths. But when his strength is 'canny melee fighter who's hella durable/strong' there's only so much it can accomplish.


The captains you listed being able to beat him - I agree with some, but not so much with others. Byakuya would be a difficult fight - getting the petals to reach him, never mind cut him, is not as easy as it sounds. And his spirit energy could blast away most kido that Byakuya could try to contain him with. But Byakuya is certainly faster, and I think Senkei could pressurize the blades enough to let Zaraki be cut. Yamamoto is obvious; he's a power-type too.

How isn't it easy? Byakuya, unlike Ichigo, has no problems deciding to kill somebody. :smalltongue: As we've obviously seen. And unlike Ichigo, I doubt Kenpachi has the speed to cut away every individual petal. Or even view them as a threat in the first place until they begin to cut him.

And Yamamoto is just a given I mean...he's Yamamoto.


Soi Fon and Mayuri, he would definitely beat. They both rely on the ultimate trick - poison. But overwhelming force reduces that trick to nothing. Aizen proved that when he completely eradicated Soi Fon's Homounka, and I have little doubts that Zaraki can do the same, even if Soi Fon could penetrate his skin to put one on him to begin with.

Soifon doesn't use poison. The only point of reference for that is the Bount arc, which doesn't even have Kubo's advice to make it semi-legitimate. More to the point...you are comparing Kenpachi's reiatsu to Aizen's? That...yeah. I don't even think there is a comparison there. More to the point, that Aizen was an illusion. The seal could have turned into a tuna if Aizen wanted :smallwink: More to the point, I was actually referring, moreso, to the banzookai then to the equally usable death in two stings.

As for Mayuri...I admit Kenpachi would win the battle, but I doubt he'd survive for long afterwords once the poison got into his system. That is if he even had the use of all his limbs by that point. But, more to the point, Kenpachi has no way of really KILLING Mayuri in one strike...I base this mostly because I don't know if a beheading would work on the freak or not. >.>



Kyoraku could beat him, but not with his Shikai like he did with Stark - the children's games are deadly, but still tricks. He'd probably have to bring his bankai out. Ukitake uses your own force against you, so he would stand a chance, but the sickness would probably mess him up before the battle was concluded.

You can call them tricks, but that doesn't change the fact that Kenpachi would be forced to play by those rules. Including the color guessing game that decimated Starrk and would do even better against Kenpachi since Kyoraku and Kenpachi wear the same bloody uniform. Heck, we don't even know what the bankai is, but if it's more powerful then the shikai then...yeah. And I only said Ukitake because it's known he's a good swordsman and his bankai is unknown. His redirection attack in shikai only seems to work on energy blasts that Kenpachi doesn't have.


Hitsugaya, I'm not sure of. His potential is second only to Ichigo, so it would depend on how much of that potential was brought out during the fight. His zanpakuto is also about sheer power though (like Yamamoto's), even though he himself is still a child.

I'm not talking about potential with Hitsugaya, I'm talking about 'Kenpachi being frozen solid'. :smallwink: I don't know how he'd get out of that situation, considering that it seems to require outside assistance, and quickly, to escape from.

@Drolyt:

What advantage? Before using Bankai Tousen couldn't even touch Kenpachi. After using Bankai it seemed he might win but Kenpachi found out how to beat it. Fact is Kenpachi is stronger than Tousen however you look at it, and I doubt Ressurecion would have made a difference.

Couldn't touch him? Tousen hurt Kenpachi just fine in shikai, it just didn't phase Kenpachi like all the other wounds he's ever taken. Seriously, have you ever seen him like he's acting as if pain is affecting him? Even after the fight with Ichigo he didn't seemed phased by his injuries. As for being stronger then Tousen, physically yes. Reiatsu-wise, yes. But Tousen was still hurting Kenpachi even after Tousen started fighting like an idiot. The moment Kenpachi actually hit him in melee while all of his senses were cutoff, Tousen should have retreated and resorted to using kido. But he didn't. Hence 'Kenpachi was clever and Tousen was over-confident'.


It's implied that they fought at least a little, I don't remember if Kommamura used Bankai but there's also the fact that Kenpachi was confident that he could defeat both of them at once, it's a bit of a stretch to say that was just overconfidence.

Yes, it's implied that but they also both looked no worse for the where after that implied fighting. And yes Kommamura used bankai but taking Kenpachi's confidence as the rule for his strength is ill-advised. Kenpachi thinks he can kill anyone. It's part of his personality, losing just isn't something he thinks about. That doesn't mean he could have beat both of them, considering Kommamura was un-wounded while Kenpachi was at least starting off with some injuries.


While it's true that Kenpachi admitted his wounds were becoming severe throughout that fight he was never in any doubt about the victor and didn't even consider Nnoitra a worthy opponent like he does Ichigo. I'd call that pwn.

Kenpachi didn't even consider Ichigo a worthy opponent until after Ichigo beat him. :smalltongue: More to the point, Kenpachi just wants to fight Ichigo again and if 'Thanks for the rush, Nnoitra!' is any indication, he'd gladly fight Nnoitra again too if given the chance.


Kenpachi's exact words were that the reiatsu he leaked unconsciously was stronger than the reiatsu Ichigo honed into a fighting blade. This was after he defeated Renji. Remember that Renji alone of the Lieutenants was close to achieving Bankai, and also that when the other Lieutenants heard about Renji's defeat they were in total shock. This leads me to believe that Renji was the strongest Lieutenant. What this leads to inevitably is that Kenpachi's reiatsu is significantly greater than that of Tousen in his ressurecion.

Renji achieved bankai, possibly even after Madarame, and Kenpachi's own words debunk your claims. Ichigo didn't spontenously get stronger until the very end of that fight. Yet, before that, he was able to start wounding Kenpachi because he was able to hone his sword's edge to a fine enough point. Ichigo, the un-trained (mostly) substitute shinigami was able to figure out how to cut Kenpachi. Presumably anyone with enough reiatsu and knowledge of how to hone the edge could do so which is likely to be most seated officers. And the shock at Renji's defeat isn't 'because it's Renji'. It's 'because a Vice-Captain lost'.


You honestly believe all those guys could defeat Kenpachi? Come on, I mean sure Yamamoto, Captain Grabass, and Captain Tuberculosis, and maybe Byakuya, but Hitsufailya, Mayuri, Soi Fon, and Kommamura? I really doubt it. Oh and Captain Mom, she could probably do it. And Aizen and probably Gin, but I digress. You are way underestimating Kenpachi based on what we've seen of his abilities.

Yes, I do. I think it'd be an interesting fight, for sure. But I have no doubts that unless Kenpachi figured out some sort of advantage to exploit, his normal fighting style would simply get him killed against all of the above. As for 'what we've seen of his abilities'...O.o You say that like there's more to see. It's Kenpachi. The fact he held his sword with two hands as his 'ultimate move' is rather telling that there isn't anything new about his abilities to see!


And I completely disagree. The databooks, while official, were never claimed to be canon anyways.

Weren't the databooks WRITTEN by Kubo? How could they not be canon if they are both official and contain pertinent information about the characters in them? That isn't revealed in the manga until later but is the same as the databook? :smallconfused: That makes no sense. [/spoiler]

[Innis Cabal]

Weren't the databooks WRITTEN by Kubo? How could they not be canon if they are both official and contain pertinent information about the characters in them? That isn't revealed in the manga until later but is the same as the databook? :smallconfused: That makes no sense. [/spoiler]

They are written by Kubo, so ya...they're cannon.

[Optimystik]

Lemme be clear, I'm not dismissing Kenpachi because he lacks a bankai. I even applaud his fighting style and the fact he gets it to work in the first place. Hell, he's easily one of my favorite captains. I just don't hold any delusions that raw power can conquer any trick put up against him. :smallwink: But yeah...believe me, I know he plays to his strengths. But when his strength is 'canny melee fighter who's hella durable/strong' there's only so much it can accomplish.

Raw power can conquer any trick. Aizen proved that. The only question is whether Kenpachi has enough of it to beat other captains. He might not be able to beat all of them, but certainly some.


How isn't it easy? Byakuya, unlike Ichigo, has no problems deciding to kill somebody. :smalltongue: As we've obviously seen. And unlike Ichigo, I doubt Kenpachi has the speed to cut away every individual petal. Or even view them as a threat in the first place until they begin to cut him.

Who said anything about speed? :smallconfused:
If he makes his reiatsu is dense enough, the petals can surround him but not reach him. Simple as that.

Remember that a zanpakuto is simply concentrated reiatsu. We know that concentrated reiatsu can deflect the blades (Ichigo does this), and we also know that Kenpachi's reiatsu is within his body rather than within his sword. So I'm not really sure I understand what you're getting at with "speed."


And Yamamoto is just a given I mean...he's Yamamoto.

Yes, that's what I said.


Soifon doesn't use poison. The only point of reference for that is the Bount arc, which doesn't even have Kubo's advice to make it semi-legitimate.

What then, does she use? He never said her ability wasn't poison either.
Aizen's comment is that he "contained" her ability with his reiatsu - a comment which carries connotations of containing a poison to keep it from spreading.
Until you have a better explanation for what it is, I'll just keep calling it poison.


More to the point...you are comparing Kenpachi's reiatsu to Aizen's? That...yeah. I don't even think there is a comparison there.

He doesn't have to be as strong as Aizen to beat another captain.


More to the point, that Aizen was an illusion. The seal could have turned into a tuna if Aizen wanted :smallwink:

We don't actually know when he made the switch. (He answers Shinji's question - "how long?" - with another question.)
And even if it was her the whole time, does it make his words any less true? Do you really think he'd be susceptible to Nigeki Kessatsu?


More to the point, I was actually referring, moreso, to the banzookai then to the equally usable death in two stings.

While I have no doubt that could seriously damage him, whether it could kill him (without a kido containment field anyway) is another matter. And she'd only get one shot.
By the way, her bankai proves my point - sheer power (an explosive) defeats a trick (decaying gas.)


As for Mayuri...I admit Kenpachi would win the battle, but I doubt he'd survive for long afterwords once the poison got into his system. That is if he even had the use of all his limbs by that point.

Somehow I don't see Kenpachi failing a fort save :smalltongue:
It would be a marvelous twist if his eyepatch was capable of leeching the toxin from him just like it leeches his reiatsu.


But, more to the point, Kenpachi has no way of really KILLING Mayuri in one strike...I base this mostly because I don't know if a beheading would work on the freak or not. >.>

Why does it have to be "one strike?"
Victory does not necessarily mean killing the other party. Ishida beat Mayuri too, but did not kill him.


You can call them tricks, but that doesn't change the fact that Kenpachi would be forced to play by those rules. Including the color guessing game that decimated Starrk and would do even better against Kenpachi since Kyoraku and Kenpachi wear the same bloody uniform.

Would it? I think Kenpachi can take more punishment than Kyoraku.
I'm not saying that Kyoraku wouldn't win, but it's not clear-cut.


I'm not talking about potential with Hitsugaya, I'm talking about 'Kenpachi being frozen solid'. :smallwink: I don't know how he'd get out of that situation, considering that it seems to require outside assistance, and quickly, to escape from.

The same way Grimmjow did - sheer strength.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Who said anything about speed? :smallconfused:
If he makes his reiatsu is dense enough, the petals can surround him but not reach him. Simple as that.

Remember that a zanpakuto is simply concentrated reiatsu. We know that concentrated reiatsu can deflect the blades (Ichigo does this), and we also know that Kenpachi's reiatsu is within his body rather than within his sword. So I'm not really sure I understand what you're getting at with "speed."

I mention speed because, for one, I'm not sure which point you are referencing. I'm referring to when Ichigo first went bankai and had to slash away all of the petals while he was in the air. That's where I'm getting 'speed' from.

And more to the point, what's to stop Byakuya from simply doing the same, but for attack? The other captains can do what Kenpachi does to, it just doesn't work that well against other captains who are in the same ballpark reiatsu wise.


What then, does she use? He never said her ability wasn't poison either.
Aizen's comment is that he "contained" her ability with his reiatsu - a comment which carries connotations of containing a poison to keep it from spreading.
Until you have a better explanation for what it is, I'll just keep calling it poison.

I'unno what she uses. Hasn't been explained. The closest it's come has been 'the seal joins with another that rapidly expands' which makes it sound like sticking something big and pointy in someone then rapidly enlarging it. All I know is what happened to Barragon's fraccion was not poison. :smalltongue: Poison doesn't make you explode while airbrushing a symbol in the air.


We don't actually know when he made the switch. (He answers Shinji's question - "how long?" - with another question.)
And even if it was her the whole time, does it make his words any less true? Do you really think he'd be susceptible to Nigeki Kessatsu?

That's very true, I was moreso making the point Aizen could very well have been playing psychological mind-games the entire time since with his illusions he could have just made it look like the seal disappeared. And with the reveal of the Hogyoku in his chest, I have my doubts that Nigeki Kessatsu would work on him too. But I'm referring to Kenpachi, not Aizen.


While I have no doubt that could seriously damage him, whether it could kill him (without a kido containment field anyway) is another matter. And she'd only get one shot.
By the way, her bankai proves my point - sheer power (an explosive) defeats a trick (decaying gas.)

Actually, if you'll remember, her bankai hurts your point because neither of her two shots managed to kill the 2nd Espada. It took a trick to kill him when Hachi teleported his decaying arm into Barragon's chest. So...yeah. Also, Soifon has demonstrated the capability of firing at least two shots. So yeah...I think the banzooka could defeat Kenpachi.


Somehow I don't see Kenpachi failing a fort save :smalltongue:
It would be a marvelous twist if his eyepatch was capable of leeching the toxin from him just like it leeches his reiatsu.

That eyepatch came from 12th Division. :smalltongue: It probably has an explosive in it. More to the point it's not what you see happening, it's what happens. Kenpachi has a body. It has an anatomy. Mayuri's poison and shikai do horrible things to bodies and adapts to antibodies. Like I said...Kenpachi could win the fight, but the 'war' would most likely end with a poisoned corpse and possibly a dead Mayuri.


Why does it have to be "one strike?"
Victory does not necessarily mean killing the other party. Ishida beat Mayuri too, but did not kill him.

Cause if it's more then one strike then Mayuri has the nasty habit of stabbing himself and turning into goo? I'm assuming Kenpachi wants to KILL Mayuri, not just send him running.


Would it? I think Kenpachi can take more punishment than Kyoraku.
I'm not saying that Kyoraku wouldn't win, but it's not clear-cut.

I believe it would. Remember, in the color game how hard you hit the opponent doesn't matter diddly squat, it's how well you play the game. Calling 'black' after taking off his coat and hitting Kenpachi in the shihakuso would do even more damage to Kenpachi then it did to Starrk (who only had the hollow hole as black from what was seen)..which supposedly killed him.


The same way Grimmjow did - sheer strength.

You are comparing Rukia's shikai to Hitsugaya's bankai, you know that right? :smalltongue:

[Optimystik]

I mention speed because, for one, I'm not sure which point you are referencing. I'm referring to when Ichigo first went bankai and had to slash away all of the petals while he was in the air. That's where I'm getting 'speed' from.

Yeah, so Ichigo slashed the petals to keep them away from him. What's to stop Kenpachi from just using his ungodly reiatsu to keep the petals away from him?


And more to the point, what's to stop Byakuya from simply doing the same, but for attack? The other captains can do what Kenpachi does to, it just doesn't work that well against other captains who are in the same ballpark reiatsu wise.

Actually, they can't do what he does. The others have to rely on their swords to achieve the same levels of power he does. His power is so great that it completely subsumes that of his sword. No other captain can do what he does.

Whereas Ichigo had to use his sword to block Senbonzakura, Kenpachi can likely produce enough power through his skin to do the same thing. No speed necessary.

I have little doubt we'll find out the truth of my statement shortly.


I'unno what she uses. Hasn't been explained. The closest it's come has been 'the seal joins with another that rapidly expands' which makes it sound like sticking something big and pointy in someone then rapidly enlarging it. All I know is what happened to Barragon's fraccion was not poison. :smalltongue: Poison doesn't make you explode while airbrushing a symbol in the air.

It kills you no matter how whole you are physically. Sounds like poison to me.


Actually, if you'll remember, her bankai hurts your point because neither of her two shots managed to kill the 2nd Espada. It took a trick to kill him when Hachi teleported his decaying arm into Barragon's chest. So...yeah. Also, Soifon has demonstrated the capability of firing at least two shots. So yeah...I think the banzooka could defeat Kenpachi.

For the Banzooka to defeat Kenpachi, we'd have to concede that Soi Fon has more raw power than Zaraki does. I highly doubt that.

As for Barrigan, he was really defeated by his own trick. He was not actually immune to his own death powers, he was just very good at avoiding them. This is a pattern in Bleach - the same happens to Szayel, Tousen (initially), and Shinji.


That eyepatch came from 12th Division. :smalltongue: It probably has an explosive in it. More to the point it's not what you see happening, it's what happens. Kenpachi has a body. It has an anatomy. Mayuri's poison and shikai do horrible things to bodies and adapts to antibodies. Like I said...Kenpachi could win the fight, but the 'war' would most likely end with a poisoned corpse and possibly a dead Mayuri.

[QUOTE=Callos_DeTerran;8243297]Cause if it's more then one strike then Mayuri has the nasty habit of stabbing himself and turning into goo? I'm assuming Kenpachi wants to KILL Mayuri, not just send him running.

If you recall, the word you used was "defeat," not "kill."


I believe it would. Remember, in the color game how hard you hit the opponent doesn't matter diddly squat, it's how well you play the game. Calling 'black' after taking off his coat and hitting Kenpachi in the shihakuso would do even more damage to Kenpachi then it did to Starrk (who only had the hollow hole as black from what was seen)..which supposedly killed him.

Stark brought a gun to a swordfight. I can't honestly believe that his susceptibility to a given tactic says anything definitive about Kenpachi.


You are comparing Rukia's shikai to Hitsugaya's bankai, you know that right? :smalltongue:[/spoiler]

So? Kenpachi is stronger than Grimmjow - he must be, since he was stronger than Nnoitra. So the difference in strength between the two ices is a wash.

[Drolyt]

The new bleach should be out on Manga Stream soon, then we'll see what Gin's Bankai is actually like. I don't doubt the spoilers really, but the scans give the full picture.

As for the Kenpachi debate, I don't know what to say. Seems we are at an impasse, but I honestly don't think Kenpachi is the weakest Captain.

[Frozen_Feet]

Just something about Kenpachi and Nnoitra - wasn't Nnoitra getting his ass handed to him by Nel moments before Kenpachi appeared? What if Zaraki winning was a factor of him being fresh, while his opponent was already exhausted?

[Drolyt]

Just something about Kenpachi and Nnoitra - wasn't Nnoitra getting his ass handed to him by Nel moments before Kenpachi appeared? What if Zaraki winning was a factor of him being fresh, while his opponent was already exhausted?

IRRC, Nnoitra hadn't even used his Resurecion yet, so I highly doubt that.

[Optimystik]

IRRC, Nnoitra hadn't even used his Resurecion yet, so I highly doubt that.

Correct, and Nel used hers. The general rule in Bleach - "he who releases first, loses."

(Though of course, there are exceptions.)

[Grumman]

It kills you no matter how whole you are physically. Sounds like poison to me.
I'd call it a Save or Die effect, but not a poison.


Correct, and Nel used hers. The general rule in Bleach - "he who releases first, loses."

(Though of course, there are exceptions.)
Therefore, Kenpachi will always win? :smallbiggrin:

[Drolyt]

I'd call it a Save or Die effect, but not a poison.


I don't think it's a poison either, even though it would be in character for her. More like a save or die, apparently it can be negated with sufficient Reiatsu. So far only Aizen has been shown to have such Reiatsu, the other only real candidates besides Aizen are Yammamoto, Ichigo, Kenpachi, and maybe maybe maybe Gin, Captain Grabass, Captain Tuberculosis, or Captain Mom.

[Optimystik]

I'd call it a Save or Die effect, but not a poison.

Obviously it's a save or die, but what causes it?
If you can't answer that and Tite hasn't either, how can we rule anything out? :smallconfused:


Therefore, Kenpachi will always win? :smallbiggrin:

He has a "release," at least in dramatic terms - his eyepatch is one, and the two-hand thing is another.

[Drolyt]

Alright, just read the scan. It stretches out to 13 ****ing kilometers. What the hells the point? Seriously, that's a pretty lame Bankai if that is all it can do, but I bet he's hiding something.

[Innis Cabal]

Scan's are up. I'd say thats pretty impressive.

[Drolyt]

Also, the scan reads "finally, the last battle" and the name of the chapter is Deicide. If this is really the last battle, and they aren't even going to bother exploring all that stuff like hell, the king of soul society, the royal guard, all the remaining Bankais, and the Quincy stuff like Uryuu's father, I'll be pissed. I really don't think this is the last battle, it would be terribly anticlimactic, but still...

[Revanmal]

Okay, so Gin's Bankai is indeed a souped-up version of his Shikai. Much like everyone else's. Although, we've only see him slash once and it appeared to take down a city block. Not a bad first showing. It was a lot more impressive then the spoilers indicated, as well.

We're nowhere near finished, either, so I'm hoping we'll see a bit more to this than what we've seen so far.


Also, the scan reads "finally, the last battle" and the name of the chapter is Deicide.

I think "Deicide" might have to do with Gin's Bankai. It's translated as something like "God Killing Spear." I don't know what the "Last Battle" stuff was about though.

[Optimystik]

Also, the scan reads "finally, the last battle" and the name of the chapter is Deicide. If this is really the last battle, and they aren't even going to bother exploring all that stuff like hell, the king of soul society, the royal guard, all the remaining Bankais, and the Quincy stuff like Uryuu's father, I'll be pissed. I really don't think this is the last battle, it would be terribly anticlimactic, but still...

Also, has Aizen managed to find a Vasto Lorde yet?

[Innis Cabal]

Also, has Aizen managed to find a Vasto Lorde yet?

At least two. Barrigan and Stark were both human shaped in their natural form.

[Optimystik]

At least two. Barrigan and Stark were both human shaped in their natural form.

That was them?

One was beaten by a shikai, the other by his own ability.

Color me impressed :smallsigh:

[Drolyt]

At least two. Barrigan and Stark were both human shaped in their natural form.

It's not entirely clear, but yeah that's fannon. Starrk is an odd case though, he may have already been arrancarized when Aizen found him, it's not really clear at all.

[Demons_eye]

Damn it.... With all this talk of foreshadowing and arguments about fights, you people have made me reread it all.

[KnightDisciple]

That was them?

One was beaten by a shikai, the other by his own ability.

Color me impressed :smallsigh:

One was beaten by the 3rd or 4th most haxx shikai (after Aizen, Old Man Yama, and maybe Shinji). You know, the one that warped reality to fit a children's game.

The other was beaten by the combined effort of SoiFon's Bankai, super-barriers from Hachi, and a quick-thinking gamble from Hachi. It's a classic "hoisted on your own petard" scenario.

[Optimystik]

One was beaten by the 3rd or 4th most haxx shikai (after Aizen, Old Man Yama, and maybe Shinji). You know, the one that warped reality to fit a children's game.

I know which one. And hax or not, a shikai is a shikai.
Can you honestly say you were satisified watching the Primera Espada lose to a 1st release?

I'm not that upset about Barrigan (mainly because I love seeing Barrier Warriors in action) but he was still his own worst enemy. I prefer to think that there haven't been any real Vasto Lordes yet. The way Hitsugaya referred to them, they wouldn't even need to become Arrancar.

[Innis Cabal]

I know which one. And hax or not, a shikai is a shikai.
Can you honestly say you were satisified watching the Primera Espada lose to a 1st release?


Yes. Because unlike most of the fannon that goes with Bleach, I don't care about the EPIC powers so much as the EPIC utilization of them. And to be honest, ya. That was pretty hardcore.


I'm not that upset about Barrigan (mainly because I love seeing Barrier Warriors in action) but he was still his own worst enemy. I prefer to think that there haven't been any real Vasto Lordes yet. The way Hitsugaya referred to them, they wouldn't even need to become Arrancar.

Maybe we haven't, but both fit the description of a Vasto Lorde.

[KnightDisciple]

I know which one. And hax or not, a shikai is a shikai.
Can you honestly say you were satisified watching the Primera Espada lose to a 1st release?

I'm not that upset about Barrigan (mainly because I love seeing Barrier Warriors in action) but he was still his own worst enemy. I prefer to think that there haven't been any real Vasto Lordes yet. The way Hitsugaya referred to them, they wouldn't even need to become Arrancar.

I am, actually. Especially since he actually got beat on by 2 Captain-Level Vizard with their shikai, then ended up falling to Shunsui a.)using reality haxx, and b.)fighting smart. *Shrugs* I actually felt pretty satisfied as far as that went. I do still want to see several of the unseen bankai, true.

[Fiery Diamond]

I know which one. And hax or not, a shikai is a shikai.
Can you honestly say you were satisified watching the Primera Espada lose to a 1st release?

I'm not that upset about Barrigan (mainly because I love seeing Barrier Warriors in action) but he was still his own worst enemy. I prefer to think that there haven't been any real Vasto Lordes yet. The way Hitsugaya referred to them, they wouldn't even need to become Arrancar.

Indeed. I have every expectation that this will NOT be the final battle. On another note, I find it hilarious that Gin is calling Ichigo creepy.

[Optimystik]

Yes. Because unlike most of the fannon that goes with Bleach, I don't care about the EPIC powers so much as the EPIC utilization of them. And to be honest, ya. That was pretty hardcore.

I'm fine with finesse too, but beating an Espada (never mind the 1st Espada) with your Shikai should be dicey at best, and at least make you break a sweat. Captain Grabass still looked bored the entire time. In fact, Kubo makes a point of showing that the Vizard may not as well have bothered getting involved; both by Lisa lampshading the fact that Kyoraku was unharmed by a point-blank Cero, and Love's complaint about Kyoraku's interference later.

Rukia and Hisagi - now those were "EPIC utilization." But "nyah nyah, the black tiles are lava, don't step on them!" was just a ridiculous victory, and furthermore had nothing to do with the form of his zanpakuto either. It was almost as bad an ass-pull as Yammy, and I was extremely satisifed when Aizen messed them all up not long afterward.

[Shadowbane]

I was actually really disappointed by Gin's bankai. But then again, Gin's a tricky fox.

I personally think that there are two possibilities here:

a) The sword can grow other swords out of it that can nail Ichigo. Nasty fight, that.

b) The sword can move rapidly, turn corners and whatnot until it reaches eight miles of length. That way Gin could theoretically cage his opponents in and then slice them to pieces in one seriously impressive move.

At least, I hope. Gin's one of my favorite characters.

Now, a thought. "God-Killing Spear."

...Could this be foreshadowing that he kills Aizen?

[Grumman]

Obviously it's a save or die, but what causes it?
Magic. Duh.

[Optimystik]

Now, a thought. "God-Killing Spear."

...Could this be foreshadowing that he kills Aizen?

Especially with that volume's name... "Deicide."


Magic. Duh.

Magic poison.
Hai2u, square one!

(It being magic doesn't invalidate my point anyway.)

[Krazddndfreek]

I have had little faith in Kubo's ability to write a good story, so I really do think that he's trolling us, and that "God-Killing Spear" is really his bankai. However, as discussed, Gin is a crafty bastard. I'll bet he'll go off and attack someone other than Ichigo with his impressive reach, hoping Ichigo will try to protect them. Its not super-creative (Gin did pull that once already), but again, I don't think Kubo is.

[Frozen_Feet]

When you think about it, a 13 km sword is quite impressive. Imagine the weight, the leverage and the utterly ridiculous speed the tip must be traversing with. Also, potentially Gin could just whirl around and cut through all those pillars at once.

Yeah, it's not very fancy. But think how ridiculous the whole thing is from physics stand point, and it becomes quite interesting.

[Drolyt]

When you think about it, a 13 km sword is quite impressive. Imagine the weight, the leverage and the utterly ridiculous speed the tip must be traversing with. Also, potentially Gin could just whirl around and cut through all those pillars at once.

Yeah, it's not very fancy. But think how ridiculous the whole thing is from physics stand point, and it becomes quite interesting.

I don't feel like actually doing the math, but the tip has to cause some relativistic effects. :smallsmile:

[Prime32]

And yet, I doubt any of the other characters in the area will get hit by it. :smalltongue:

[Optimystik]

And yet, I doubt any of the other characters in the area will get hit by it. :smalltongue:

If Ichigo is, he'll just lose half his torso, collapse, get back up, put on his mask, yell "HABEEB IT!" and impale Gin. Who will then sorrowfully reflect on how little his life of wickedness actually accomplished, and that he regrets making Aizen the sole beneficiary of his high-premium life insurance policy.

[Drolyt]

If Ichigo is, he'll just lose half his torso, collapse, get back up, put on his mask, yell "HABEEB IT!" and impale Gin. Who will then sorrowfully reflect on how little his life of wickedness actually accomplished, and that he regrets making Aizen the sole beneficiary of his high-premium life insurance policy.

That's it! Aizen isn't trying to become a god, this whole thing is an insurance scam. Aizen took out policies on the the Espada, their Fraccion, the entire Gotei 13, even Ichigo and gang, and now he seeks to collect. Using his illusions he can convince the insurance company that it was absolutely not him that killed them, and yes they better pay up before Aizen kills everyone at the insurance company after taking out policies on them. It makes more sense than the actual plot, you know it does.

[Binks]

That's it! Aizen isn't trying to become a god, this whole thing is an insurance scam...

Who says they're mutually exclusive? What if the insurance policies Aizen took out payed in Souls, and just so happened to pay enough to make the Key! It's brilliant!

The conversion from angular to tip velocity is (angular degrees per second)*2*pi*(radius). So for Gin's sword, assuming x degree per second (360/x seconds to do a full circle) we'd get a tip velocity of (x)*2*pi*(13km) = 26pi*x ~= x*81km/s.

So to get that sword up to serious relativistic effects (say 5% the speed of light) requires that he swings it (c*.05)/(81km/s) = 183.5 degrees per second, or spinning 180 degrees around in a second, which is reasonable though not likely.

More generally (c*y)/(81km/s)=x ~=> 3670y=x or y = x/3670, where y is the percentage of the speed of light you want to achieve and x is the degrees per second you're swinging at. So if Gin maxes out at, say, x=45 degrees per second (a 45 degree change every second [or 8 seconds to do a full circle] swinging at full speed) his best y is 45/3670 ~= 1% of c.

Not bad. Not bad at all. There would be definite measurable relativistic effects at that velocity, though not enough to really matter in a fight.

Incidentally breaking c requires an x > 3670 degrees per second, or ~11 full circles in a second...which I wouldn't put past a bleach character. Of course with time dilation that would either be easier (somewhere around the 8-10 region) or completely impossible, depending on your point of reference.

Also incidentally a degrees per second speed of 1 means the tip is moving at mach 200+, which is just absolutely ridiculous. Everyone's ears should be bleeding from the sonic booms at this point. Mach ~880991 is c if you were curious.

We have 38s until that sonic boom should be reaching the immediate area around Gin (13km/mach 1)...get ready :P

* I haven't been in a physics class in a while so if you spot an error in my calculations let me know...and I'll blame google :smalltongue:

[Indon]

Also incidentally a degrees per second speed of 1 means the tip is moving at mach 200+, which is just absolutely ridiculous. Everyone's ears should be bleeding from the sonic booms at this point. Mach ~880991 is c if you were curious.

We have 38s until that sonic boom should be reaching the immediate area around Gin (13km/mach 1)...get ready :P

I'm not sure that's how it'd go.

Mind that a sonic boom is just a bunch of sound waves made by something, all piled up in the same area (so they hit you all at once). Sonic booms are deafeningly loud in our experience because they are made by things that are already very very loud (jets, whose pre and post-barrier breaking sound wakes when flying are already very loud even on the ground) and the sonic boom magnifies this.

But a sword does not make much sound. A sonic boom with a sword, which would require spending some time right at or below the speed of sound in order to allow the sound waves to build up mind you, would not be very big because swords do not produce much noise. Note furthermore that since Gin's weapon probably accelerates past the speed of sound pretty much instantly, it wouldn't build up any sound waves anyway.

[Drolyt]

Assuming Gin can swing that behemoth as fast as I can swing a normal sword, 360 degrees in 1 second shouldn't be that hard. 3670 degrees though, I'm not sure if even a Bleach character can do that. I mean, I bet he could do it with a normal sword, but with that... thing? I'm not sure.

[Binks]

I'm not sure that's how it'd go...

Thunder is a sonic boom (the air is heated and expands faster than the speed of sound) as is the 'crack' of a whip (the tip moves faster than sound) and at least part of the sound of dropping a pebble in the water. Not to even starting getting into the sound of a bullet being fired (which is IMHO the closest RL analogy we have to something like this, though still way off) Sonic booms aren't just caused by planes.

[Drolyt]

Thunder is a sonic boom (the air is heated and expands faster than the speed of sound) as is the 'crack' of a whip (the tip moves faster than sound) and at least part of the sound of dropping a pebble in the water. Not to even starting getting into the sound of a bullet being fired (which is IMHO the closest RL analogy we have to something like this, though still way off) Sonic booms aren't just caused by planes.

It should definitely make a boom, but what effect it would actually have is unclear. It's been a while since I've done any physics, I'm not sure how the hell that would work...

[Indon]

Thunder is a sonic boom (the air is heated and expands faster than the speed of sound) as is the 'crack' of a whip (the tip moves faster than sound) and at least part of the sound of dropping a pebble in the water. Not to even starting getting into the sound of a bullet being fired (which is IMHO the closest RL analogy we have to something like this, though still way off) Sonic booms aren't just caused by planes.

I think considering the amount of noise the blade would make, that we'd be looking at something closer to a whipcrack.

You could say the weapon's fairly snappy.

[Frozen_Feet]

Actually, considering how darn long the blade is, all in all it should cause a massive wooshing sound, probably as loud or louder than a freakin' thunderclap. Add to that the sound that those collapsing buildings make, and the battlefield should be noisy enough to deafen everyone around.

EDIT: I just realized air shoud be turning into plasma around the tip due to friction. ****.

[gooddragon1]

Tsk tsk... comparing length of their weapons. It's not about how long it is as Ichigo shows... it's how you handle it.

[Fiery Diamond]

Tsk tsk... comparing length of their weapons. It's not about how long it is as Ichigo shows... it's how you handle it.

*facepalm*

[gooddragon1]

*facepalm*

What?! At least I didn't say that when they release their bankai their naked weapon is out... that could have been way worse!

EDIT: Aw nuts.

EDIT2: Must choose edits more carefully...

[Shadowbane]

Tsk tsk... comparing length of their weapons. It's not about how long it is as Ichigo shows... it's how you handle it.

Get a grip. :P

[Binks]

EDIT: I just realized air shoud be turning into plasma around the tip due to friction. ****.

That's a good point. And that heating should be much like a lightning strike, so there should be a thunderclap, regardless of the actual sonic boom's sound.

Realistically something like this should be creating all sorts of messed up effects that you wouldn't expect, like superheating the air from friction and creating sonic booms/thunderclaps from its tip that take a while to arrive to minor relativistic effects to being effectively unblockable near the tip since you're getting hit with a sword moving, at minimum, mach 200+. Block that.

Unfortunately we probably won't see any of this, it'll just be a simple long sword that Gin swings around for a bit before going resurrection and getting killed. But man, Gin could have the trickiest weapon ever if you took into account everything a sword that long could do...

Ichigo fighting Gin, who's used Bankai, Ichigo uses Bankai + mask to jet around Gin, who swings his sword seemingly at random, then reaches up and puts in some earplugs. Boom! The thunderous sound of the thunderclap+sonic boom from the sword's tip hits, stunning Ichigo momentarily, as Gin jets off very far and fast and swings the tip at him. Ichigo goes to block but gets hit by a Mach 200+ sword coated in plasma whose momentum is enough to throw Ichigo around like a toy through just about anything in the way and which is pretty much impervious to his blasts, being a sword made out of equivalent strength reatsu at least. Oh, and good luck hitting Gin who's 13km away with anything...

Gin could be invincible with this thing if he started off the fight far enough away...

[Optimystik]

Tsk tsk... comparing length of their weapons. It's not about how long it is as Ichigo shows... it's how you handle it.

You obviously don't want much shounen. Every single fight between males in every series ever, is a thinly veiled phallic allegory.

[TheSummoner]

All this physics talk is making my head spin... I didn't learn a damn thing when I took that class because the teacher was a senile old fossil who got sidetracked so easily (whether we did it or he did it to himself) that he spent more time talking about his favorite restarants than teaching anything...

Regarding the power of the captains though... From strongest to weakest, I'd say...

1/2 - Yammamoto/Aizen
3 - Unohana
4 - Kyoraku
5/6/7 - Ukitake/Gin/Byakuya
8 - Kenpachi
9/10 - Soi Fon/Hitsugaya
11 - Kurotsuchi
12/13 - Tosen/Komamura

The ones I grouped together are that way because I don't think theres enough information, but if I were to guess, the one(s) I put first are stronger than the ones that come later in the group.

Regarding Hitsugaya... I've always thought the big thing about him wasn't that he was incredibly powerful, but rather that he wields the power of a captain at such a young age... The thing that makes him so "special" isn't how much power he has, but rather how early he got that power.

Re: Kenpachi vs Kurotsuchi. Mayuri doesn't seem like the physical type. For his poison to do anything, he'd have to actually cut Kenpachi. Maybe Kenpachi would let him... make things more fun, but short of that, I don't think his Shikai will be of any use. I also really doubt Nemu throwing herself at Kenpachi would do a damn thing. How about Mayuri's Bankai? If you're willing to take filler as any indication, Kenpachi has already demonstrated the ability to blow away Konjiki Ashisogi ***ō's (lol at the forums censoring the name) poison gas with the raw power of his awesome. If the eyepatch is rigged, it better be rigged in such a way that can kill Kenpachi in a single blow. If not, all you're left with is an angry Kenpachi with nothing limiting his power. Though (atleast as far as I can remember) its never been demonstrated, Mayuri is supposibly very skilled with Kido. Its really the only chance he would have in a fight against Kenpachi.

Re: Kenpachi vs Byakuya. I don't understand why people seem to think Kenpachi would be able to resist Senbonzakura's blades. If he was able to use his reiatsu actively to "harden" himself, he would've done it against Ichigo. This leads me to believe its a much more passive thing... That if Kenpachi is at power level X, you have to be above power level Y to be able to cut him. Ichigo had no problem with it, so theres no doubt in my mind that Byukaya is powerful enough to cut Kenpachi. Byakuya is also faster than Kenpachi and very skilled with Kido. It would be a difficult fight for him, but I have to give it to Byakuya.

[Zeful]

If he was able to use his reiatsu actively to "harden" himself, he would've done it against Ichigo.

He did (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/105/07/). It was a passive thing though, so the only time it works is when Kenpatchi's Reiatsu is way above his opponent's, which is probably not going to work in Captain/Captain battles so Kenpatchi's not going to be unaffected by Byakuya's Bankai.

[TheSummoner]

He did (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/105/07/). It was a passive thing though, so the only time it works is when Kenpatchi's Reiatsu is way above his opponent's, which is probably not going to work in Captain/Captain battles so Kenpatchi's not going to be unaffected by Byakuya's Bankai.

Yes, he did... Passively. Thats the key thing here. Its not something that can be turned on or off at will. Once Ichigo was able to cut him, Kenpachi wasn't able to simply flip a switch to harden himself further. Thats the entire point I was trying to make.

[nothingclever]

The thing is we don't really know how well he can strengthen his skin. You can assume it's a passive ability he has no control over that is automatically negated if someone is at or near your power level but we don't really know that for certain. You can assume Kenpachi has shown us his maximum power already and that holding his sword with two hands is his one and only trump card. You can assume he's easy to hit and that's why he doesn't bother trying to dodge attacks much if at all. You can assume he knows almost nothing about how to wield a sword because using one two handed was made to be something really special.

I personally think you guys are just grossly underestimating him and completely forgetting his personality and fighting style. Did you ever think maybe using two hands to kill Nnoitra had a lot of emphasis put on it because it shows how powerful he is without using any strategy and that he simply felt he didn't need to do anything else? It also could've been done mostly for comedic effect. Did you ever think maybe he let himself take such a big beating from Nnoitra because he knew he could survive it and he was simply limiting himself by not dodging or improving his reiatsu shielding because he didn't need to? Maybe using two hands isn't his greatest technique. Maybe it's just the tip of the iceberg. Perhaps he actual knows how to flashstep and dance around but he's never bothered to. Maybe he doesn't try to block Ichigo's blade with his reiatsu because it kinds of defeats the thrill of a single strike resolution to their fight if he just runs right through him. Plus Ichigo is hax. His powers are constantly fluctuating and he spoke to his sword for a plot based power up right before the decisive moment. I don't think losing to Ichigo means he's weak. I don't think he's going to harden his defenses when Ichigo already struggled so much just to get past his passive ones. Maybe he simply underestimated Ichigo and would've won if he had tried harder. Yeah, later he says he lost and even cries if I recall correctly but remember he's one of those battle obsessed people that might consider any loss to be a loss regardless of how it happened unless he was outnumbered or something. Kenpachi doesn't sound like someone that makes excuses to me either. You might say he shouldn't have cared so much about losing if he knows he really is stronger but seeing that he could double his power by attaining his shiki definitely sounds like something to be upset about for a strength obsessed person like him and that could've been what bothered him most.

I just find all the assumptions silly.
"He didn't harden his reiatsu shielding? He can't do it then."
"He didn't dodge lots of attacks? He's too slow to dodge anything then."
"He didn't use any actual sword skills beyond gripping his weapon with two hands? He doesn't know how to sword fight then."
"He didn't flashstep? He never learned how then."

Uh... his first fight establishes him as someone that constantly holds back even if it isn't the smartest idea. He is shown to enjoy prolonging fights even if he pretty much knows he'll win. He gets off on being hurt and fighting in general.

Yeah... He totally must have shown everything he's capable of so far. No doubt about it. He has no reason to not use the full extent of his powers from start to finish whenever he fights. No reason at all.

I'm not trying to be a jerk but the logic boggles my mind. I paraphrased some things but come on.

[TheSummoner]

"He didn't harden his reiatsu shielding? He can't do it then."

I don't think anyone can actively do it. The way its been shown is as a purely passive thing. I'm not discounting Kenpachi's ability, merely arguing against a "skill" that I don't think exists.

Hell, look at who I ranked higher than Kenpachi... The head captain, the three original captains, the bigbad, the dragon, and Byakuya. The only one of those who isn't a badass by definition is only 1 higher and would still have a hell of a time trying to take Kenpachi down. The rest... I don't think hey'd stand much of a chance.

[Werewindlefr]

* I haven't been in a physics class in a while so if you spot an error in my calculations let me know...and I'll blame google :smalltongue:

Because of relativistic effects, your formulas cannot be used as is. Most notably, you make the assumption that the sword moves as a whole, which is forbidden by relativity.

In otherwords: at relativistic speed, his oversized substitute isn't straight anymore.

[Drolyt]

Because of relativistic effects, your formulas cannot be used as is. Most notably, you make the assumption that the sword moves as a whole, which is forbidden by relativity.

In otherwords: at relativistic speed, his oversized substitute isn't straight anymore.

This occurred to me, but it's been so long I have no idea how to do the math. What would his sword even look like?

[Closet_Skeleton]

So basically Gin just has Caladbolg? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caladbolg)?

That's scary in itself.

Except that Isshin claimed all captains could wield swords the size of skyscrapers if they wanted to.

[Half-Full]

So basically Gin just has Caladbolg? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caladbolg)?

That's scary in itself.

Except that Isshin claimed all captains could wield swords the size of skyscrapers if they wanted to.

As far as I can tell Caladbolg is the size of a regular sword, just that it can hit things outside of it's physical reach. I haven't read the Ulster cycle however, so I may be wrong.

And Gin's Bankai is such a let down... He had better have some tricks up his sleeve, but I can't say I think they'll be original or very good. Kubo just can't cut it as a writer any more.

[Grumman]

Aizen wants to destroy the real town, doesn't he? This looks like a perfect opportunity to "miss" Ichigo and bifurcate those pillars.

[Optimystik]

Aizen wants to destroy the real town, doesn't he? This looks like a perfect opportunity to "miss" Ichigo and bifurcate those pillars.

Yamamoto's seal is still active. His Ennetsu Jigoku was the only thing that could have broken through it, and then only by being concentrated into one titanic blast by Wonderweiss - but Yamamoto stopped it with his own body. So I doubt Gin will be able to break it, no matter how many buildings he chops up.

The real town remains unharmed - for the moment.

(Also... since when does Karakura Town have skyscrapers?)


And Gin's Bankai is such a let down... He had better have some tricks up his sleeve, but I can't say I think they'll be original or very good. Kubo just can't cut it as a writer any more.

I had my suspicions once I realized that Ikkaku had Bankai the whole time during his fight with Ichigo. They strengthened when the captains suddenly began exceeding Espada without a training montage, tapping into hollow powers, or any other reasonable explanation. They reached critical mass when Grimmjow was magically able to write Ulquiorra out of the story with his mystic plot box that was never used or even mentioned by anyone else before or since.

But Yammy... YAMMY... took the cake for me. KUbo needs to spend less time advising his studio on filler and more time focusing on being coherent.

[Grumman]

Yamamoto's seal is still active. His Ennetsu Jigoku was the only thing that could have broken through it, and then only by being concentrated into one titanic blast by Wonderweiss - but Yamamoto stopped it with his own body. So I doubt Gin will be able to break it, no matter how many buildings he chops up.
Poww already proved that you don't need all Yamamoto's power going nova to break one of the pillars. I see no reason why Gin couldn't do the same.

[Optimystik]

Poww already proved that you don't need all Yamamoto's power going nova to break one of the pillars. I see no reason why Gin couldn't do the same.

You do need it to break them all at once though.

I suppose we could have his sword extend far enough to cut them all down - that could be a narrative use for his massive phallus god-killing spear.

Are the pillars more than 26km apart?

[TheSummoner]

Except that Isshin claimed all captains could wield swords the size of skyscrapers if they wanted to.

Skyscrapers maybe, but 13 KM is longer than Mount Everest is tall. (Everest ~ 8.8 KM)


I had my suspicions once I realized that Ikkaku had Bankai the whole time during his fight with Ichigo.

This... this never made sence to me. Maybe Ikkaku didn't want others to know because he didn't want to risk promotion to captain and transfer out of squad 11... but that wasn't a possibility during his fight with Ichigo.


They strengthened when the captains suddenly began exceeding Espada without a training montage, tapping into hollow powers, or any other reasonable explanation.

To be fair, we never really had a gague on how powerful the captains were... Only Kenpachi, Kurotsuchi and Byakuya fought and "lost" to a human. Kenpachi intentionally handicapped himself, Kurotsuchi lost to the power of plot, and Byakuya was taken out by Ichigo's god mode.

As for the espada, only Hitsugaya was shown having any difficulty against them before they started going down... I have serious doubts to how powerful he actually is (Consider - With his power limited to 20%, he struggled against one of Grimmjow's fraccion. Compare this to Ikkaku who had a bit of difficulty but still managed to kill his opponent even with his power limited. Granted, Hitsugaya's opponent was probably stronger.)


They reached critical mass when Grimmjow was magically able to write Ulquiorra out of the story with his mystic plot box that was never used or even mentioned by anyone else before or since.

But Yammy... YAMMY... took the cake for me. KUbo needs to spend less time advising his studio on filler and more time focusing on being coherent.

When you're right, you're right.


You do need it to break them all at once though.

I suppose we could have his sword extend far enough to cut them all down - that could be a narrative use for his massive phallus god-killing spear.

Are the pillars more than 26km apart?

Well... 13 KM is roughly 8 miles... so 26 KM is ~16 miles... The area Aizen needs is one "spirit mile" (can't remember if thats radius or diameter)... No clue what the conversion is between normal miles and made up miles so no way to be sure on that...

[Drolyt]

This... this never made sence to me. Maybe Ikkaku didn't want others to know because he didn't want to risk promotion to captain and transfer out of squad 11... but that wasn't a possibility during his fight with Ichigo.


This I think I have an answer for. Ikkaku never gave a damn about the ryokas, he just wanted to fight someone strong. If he were to pull Bankai and kill Ichigo outright, what the hell would be the point? Just like Kenpachi with his eyepatch, Ikkaku wanted the fight to be fun. Also it was a really close fight, Ikkaku probably never considered he would lose, so even when Ichigo started winning it didn't occur to him to go Bankai until it was too late.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Ikkaku has been stated to not like using his Bankai and prefering to hide that he even has it.

[Drolyt]

Also, even if becoming a captain wasn't a realistic option at that point, it's possible they would want to upgrade him to Lieutenant or put him in another division or something. He didn't want anything like that, he just wanted to fight and serve under Kenpachi.

[Tavar]

This... this never made sence to me. Maybe Ikkaku didn't want others to know because he didn't want to risk promotion to captain and transfer out of squad 11... but that wasn't a possibility during his fight with Ichigo.
Not at that moment, no. But if it ever came up(and he'd only have to look at history to realize that captains have a decent turnover), having the ability would mean transfer.


As for the espada, only Hitsugaya was shown having any difficulty against them before they started going down... I have serious doubts to how powerful he actually is (Consider - With his power limited to 20%, he struggled against one of Grimmjow's fraccion. Compare this to Ikkaku who had a bit of difficulty but still managed to kill his opponent even with his power limited. Granted, Hitsugaya's opponent was probably stronger.)


Ikkaku wasn't limited; only captains and lieutenants are, and he's neither. Hence, he was full power the entire time.

[Drolyt]

Ikkaku wasn't limited; only captains and lieutenants are, and he's neither. Hence, he was full power the entire time.

True, but Hitsugaya still has the worst track record of all the captains.

[thubby]

You do need it to break them all at once though

since when?

[Tavar]

True, but Hitsugaya still has the worst track record of all the captains.

Oh, I'm not disputing that. Only the fact that they weren't under the same conditions.

[Optimystik]

since when?

Since they are at opposite ends of town and need massive force to break even one.


True, but Hitsugaya still has the worst track record of all the captains.

I beg to differ. Komamura has gotten his ass handed to him in every single fight, except for one - Barragan's Fraccion Poww, that whale guy. He didn't even get to fight the Bounto, and that wasn't even canon!

[Tavar]

Since they are at opposite ends of town and need massive force to break even one.

By why does that mean they have to do it all at once. Hell, even when they only broke 1, the spell already started to break. Breaking all of them in sequence would seem to work as well.

[Optimystik]

By why does that mean they have to do it all at once. Hell, even when they only broke 1, the spell already started to break. Breaking all of them in sequence would seem to work as well.

I didn't say they couldn't break them all in sequence; I was just saying you'd need a force on par with Yamamoto's ability to break them all at once.

[thubby]

I beg to differ. Komamura has gotten his ass handed to him in every single fight, except for one - Barragan's Fraccion Poww, that whale guy. He didn't even get to fight the Bounto, and that wasn't even canon!

komamura's opponent's thus far have been substantially more powerful, however. kenpachi, who was able to beat tosen before his power upgrade. tosen (post upgrade) and aizen, who are more powerful than espada.

hitsugaya almost lost to luppi, who was obliterated by grimjaw, had trouble with fraction, and had a huge type advantage over the halibel, who he couldn't kill on his own.

[Grumman]

I didn't say they couldn't break them all in sequence; I was just saying you'd need a force on par with Yamamoto's ability to break them all at once.
You've got your logic backwards. Knowing that Yamamoto's ability is sufficient to break the pillars says nothing about the effect of weaker attacks, only stronger attacks. If Yamamoto's nova is 10, it only tells you that the minimum required is less than 10. It doesn't mean the minimum required must be 9.9, just that it's somewhere between 0 and 10.

[Drolyt]

You've got your logic backwards. Knowing that Yamamoto's ability is sufficient to break the pillars says nothing about the effect of weaker attacks, only stronger attacks. If Yamamoto's nova is 10, it only tells you that the minimum required is less than 10. It doesn't mean the minimum required must be 9.9, just that it's somewhere between 0 and 10.

Uh, it could also, you know, be 10 exactly.

komamura's opponent's thus far have been substantially more powerful, however. kenpachi, who was able to beat tosen before his power upgrade. tosen (post upgrade) and aizen, who are more powerful than espada.

hitsugaya almost lost to luppi, who was obliterated by grimjaw, had trouble with fraction, and had a huge type advantage over the halibel, who he couldn't kill on his own.
They both fail pretty hard, and yet there was the guy above still arguing they were stronger than Kenpachi, despite Kenpachi owning the 5th Espada.

[Shadowbane]

I beg to differ. Komamura has gotten his ass handed to him in every single fight, except for one - Barragan's Fraccion Poww, that whale guy. He didn't even get to fight the Bounto, and that wasn't even canon!

It's sad. Komamura could be so much cooler than he is. I mean, seriously. That is one awesome bankai, except, y'know, it sucks.

Argh.

[TheSummoner]

Uh, it could also, you know, be 10 exactly.

If Yammamoto is 10 and Poww took one out without even using his resurrection, then no... the minimum force to take one out can't be 10... its more like 2.

Gin is more powerful than Poww. Gin will have no problem destroying the pillars should he actually try to do it.


They both fail pretty hard, and yet there was the guy above still arguing they were stronger than Kenpachi, despite Kenpachi owning the 5th Espada.

The real question is who would win in a fight between Hitsugaya and Komamura... Taking all bets!

[Optimystik]

hitsugaya almost lost to luppi, who was obliterated by grimjaw,

Luppi was not healed between getting sealed away in Hitsugaya's Sennen Hyourou, and being taken back to HM. Grimmjow WAS fully healed. So his easy defeat of Luppi means nothing about Hitsugaya.


had trouble with fraction,

While limited.
(Soi Fon also had trouble with Fraccion, is she weak too?)


and had a huge type advantage over the halibel, who he couldn't kill on his own.

She's Espada #3 - of course it was a tough match. It being difficult doesn't really mean much.

[TheSummoner]

(Soi Fon also had trouble with Fraccion, is she weak too?)

In direct combat, yes, I would say she is. Her strengths are that shes probably the fastest captain and can easily take out an opponent if she can get two clean shots.

However, keep in mind she was toying with Ggio Vega... trying to size up the enemy before moving on to a stronger opponent.

[Optimystik]

In direct combat, yes, I would say she is. Her strengths are that shes probably the fastest captain and can easily take out an opponent if she can get two clean shots.

Also, y'know, the whole cruise missile bankai thing.


However, keep in mind she was toying with Ggio Vega... trying to size up the enemy before moving on to a stronger opponent.

Doesn't that run contrary to the "weak" argument?

[TheSummoner]

Yes, the whole cruise missile that she can't use in direct combat because of the blast and leaves her incredibly drained afterwards.

Weak for a captain, but even Komamura took out every fraccion he ever fought (yeah, its only one fight, but the point stands).

Put Soy Bean Soi Fon against an opponent fast enough to dodge or skilled enough to block the doublestab and she'd lose. Put her against someone she can't use lethal force to defeat and she'd lose her biggest advantage.

[thubby]

Luppi was not healed between getting sealed away in Hitsugaya's Sennen Hyourou, and being taken back to HM. Grimmjow WAS fully healed. So his easy defeat of Luppi means nothing about Hitsugaya.
point



While limited.
(Soi Fon also had trouble with Fraccion, is she weak too?)
hitsugaya made a point of mentioning he probably would have lost if he didn't have the element of surprise from the limit release.
I don't recall soi fon ever having trouble with fraction. when fighting the tiger guy she was clearly holding back (and said as much), then proceeded to kill him with little effort. all while only using shikai and still wearing that ridiculous cloth thing.


She's Espada #3 - of course it was a tough match. It being difficult doesn't really mean much.
that he had a clear advantage and couldn't get a kill with it quantifies his max power rather well.

[Drolyt]

If Yammamoto is 10 and Poww took one out without even using his resurrection, then no... the minimum force to take one out can't be 10... its more like 2.

True, but not according to the argument I was correcting, which only considered Yammamoto.


Doesn't that run contrary to the "weak" argument?
No, because the fraccion were all weaker than Lieutenants. The fact that Hitsugaya had trouble with one, even at 20% power, shows how weak he is compared to the other captains. As for Soi Fon, she's not very strong physically and appears to be somewhat frail for a captain, but she makes up for it with speed and attack power. Essentially she's the glass cannon of the captains, like a Rogue from D&D or WoW, fast and can deal huge damage, but otherwise weak.

Do note that the power level of the captains has been shown to vary wildly, Starrk was able to defeat two Vizard, both of which were former captains, and yet lost to Captain Grabass' Shikai.

[Prime32]

Do note that the power level of the captains has been shown to vary wildly, Starrk was able to defeat two Vizard, both of which were former captains, and yet lost to Captain Grabass' Shikai.I like to believe that becoming a Vizard makes your zanpakuto weaker as its power is absorbed by your Inner Hollow.

I mean, when was the last time Ichigo was fast in bankai?

[Tavar]

hitsugaya made a point of mentioning he probably would have lost if he didn't have the element of surprise from the limit release.
I don't recall soi fon ever having trouble with fraction. when fighting the tiger guy she was clearly holding back (and said as much), then proceeded to kill him with little effort. all while only using shikai and still wearing that ridiculous cloth thing.

From what I recall, he needed the surprise because of the limit. Normally, the fight wouldn't have been a problem, but because he had the limit he was injured, and tired. But if he hadn't been hampered from the start, he could have taken his opponent.


I like to believe that becoming a Vizard makes your zanpakuto weaker as its power is absorbed by your Inner Hollow.

I mean, when was the last time Ichigo was fast in bankai?
Didn't he shatter all of his bones when he did that last? Seems that's something you'd want to save.

[Optimystik]

hitsugaya made a point of mentioning he probably would have lost if he didn't have the element of surprise from the limit release.

I don't think that line is in the manga, and therefore not canon.
In the manga he says "We can't even beat Gillian without the limit release." That's all.


I don't recall soi fon ever having trouble with fraction. when fighting the tiger guy she was clearly holding back (and said as much), then proceeded to kill him with little effort. all while only using shikai and still wearing that ridiculous cloth thing.

Fair enough, she isn't really relevant to Hitsugaya's strength anyway.


that he had a clear advantage and couldn't get a kill with it quantifies his max power rather well.

What "clear advantage?" It's not as if she was using fire.



I mean, when was the last time Ichigo was fast in bankai?

When Kubo remembered his notes :smallsigh:

[Closet_Skeleton]

I mean, when was the last time Ichigo was fast in bankai?

When it was actually mentioned that he had super speed (not a black energy blast) as is Bankai ability. Which would be the first time his bankai appeared.

Yeah.

Maybe it's just that when everyone has shunpo/sonido, a superspeed bankai is essentially worthless.

Or that Ichigo actually sucks and needs a super speed bankai to compete with people who actually have the combat skill to be fast.

[Tavar]

I don't think that line is in the manga, and therefore not canon.
In the manga he says "We can't even beat Gillian without the limit release." That's all.
Actually, looking back, I remember this being said in the Anime. By Renji.


When Kubo remembered his notes :smallsigh:
I think this is more likely overall, though.

[Drolyt]

I was under the impression that although Ichigo was naturally fast, he couldn't use Flash Step and so his super speed Bankai only really allowed him to keep up with opponents he honestly shouldn't be fighting at his level. I also maintain that the only reason he defeated Byakuya is because his Inner Hollow took over. Similarly he only defeated Zaraki because Zengetsu helped him. Grimmjow was his first fair victory since the start of the Soul Society Arc (even against Renji he only won because his Inner Hollow was protecting him).

[Tavar]

I was under the impression that although Ichigo was naturally fast, he couldn't use Flash Step and so his super speed Bankai only really allowed him to keep up with opponents he honestly shouldn't be fighting at his level.
He uses flash step against Byakuya, before unleashing Bankai. It's just that his Bankai allowed him to go even faster, though it supposedly did shatter his bones.

[Fiery Diamond]

And bone-shattering isn't a very good idea, you know?

Though, I do agree that Grimmjow was probably his first fair victory against someone non-weak since the beginning of Soul Society Arc (at least in canon).

[Tavar]

The former Espada?

Though, that just reminded me. If the former Espada go off into their own areas, why didn't Grimmjow?

[Fiery Diamond]

The former Espada?

Though, that just reminded me. If the former Espada go off into their own areas, why didn't Grimmjow?

Didn't he have Nel's help on that?

[Mando Knight]

Or that Ichigo actually sucks and needs a super speed bankai to compete with people who actually have the combat skill to be fast.

He's not as skilled as the other speedsters, so right now his Bankai only gives him average speed. The black Getsuga also appeared in his first fight using Bankai (though only after his hollow side began to take over), and it's essentially an expansion of his blade's only other known ability.

[thubby]

I was under the impression that although Ichigo was naturally fast, he couldn't use Flash Step and so his super speed Bankai only really allowed him to keep up with opponents he honestly shouldn't be fighting at his level. I also maintain that the only reason he defeated Byakuya is because his Inner Hollow took over. Similarly he only defeated Zaraki because Zengetsu helped him. Grimmjow was his first fair victory since the start of the Soul Society Arc (even against Renji he only won because his Inner Hollow was protecting him).

zangetsu is the physical manifestation of ichigo's power. saying it helped him is like saying using both hands is cheating.
(hichi is a special case seeing as how he he has his own completely different kind of power)


What "clear advantage?" It's not as if she was using fire.

ice is naturally more dangerous than water, he could control the weather, he has a power she arbitrarily can't influence despite it being exactly the same as the billion others used in the fight. take your pick.

[Mando Knight]

zangetsu is the physical manifestation of ichigo's power. saying it helped him is like saying using both hands is cheating.
(hichi is a special case seeing as how he he has his own completely different kind of power)

Hollow Ichigo is Zangetsu, and Zangetsu is Hollow Ichigo.

[DiscipleofBob]

My (admittedly rather worthless) two cents on the subject of ranking captains by power.

Yamomoto

Aizen

Unohana - This is purely speculation, but it's hinted a couple of times by some of the lieutenants that Unohana is actually extremely powerful and frightening, to the point where a lot of the lieutenants are afraid of her. Once again, purely speculation since the only things we know about her is that she's a great healer and either her shikai or her bankai is that giant green stingray thing. Once again, purely speculation

Shunsui - While he and his zanpakuto are equally lazy, and his Shikai has some really weird abilities, but when he does get off his ass, he's shown he's strong enough to at least coolly stand up to Old Man Yama (granted, with no hope of actually winning, but still ready to fight him) and taking out Starrk.

Byakuya - Here's the thing between Byakuya and Kenpachi. Ichigo was able to fight to a draw against Kenpachi just after awakening his zanpakuto. Shortly after that epiphany, it's openly stated that he's still way out of Byakuya's league so Yoruichi trains him. Even after learning bankai, Ichigo still has a tough time with Byakuya and has to pull out some of his inner hollow in order to win.

Kenpachi - Obviously Kenpachi's got raw power, yet he still seems to have problems against some of his oponents, even if said problems are because he likes to handicap himself.

Ukitake - From what I understand, Ukitake would be on the same level as Shunsui if it weren't for his constant illness which takes him down quite a bit. The ability to reflect back attacks is pretty cool though.

Gin - It might be just me, but Gin seemed pretty confident he could take Hitsugaya back in Soul Society. Still, unless I see some more abilities from his bankai or hollow form, I'm putting him here.

Hitsugaya - For all the talk of "most powerful ice-type zanpakuto", Hitsugaya sure tends to lose a lot.

Komamura - Despite having his own zanpakuto-mech, he really doesn't show that much prowess and gets kicked around a lot. Doesn't help that he takes the same damage as his now very easy to hit zanpakuto.

Tousen - While his zanpakuto has a nice disabling effect, it's more of a trick and less of a sign of strength and combat prowess. Not to mention in his hollow form he gets taken out by his own lieutenant's shikai. Pretty pathetic.

Soi Fong - She has the 2-hit-kill shikai, which is nice but once again more of a trick than actual fighting prowess, a bankai which can only damage an espada and requires a lot of assistance just to properly set up, and while she technically won most of her fights (except against Yoruichi), she does tend to have trouble in a lot of them, even in filler arcs (Yea, I know, filler doesn't count)

Kurotsuchi - Yes, I'd say Kurotsuchi is the weakest, but he doesn't really need to be strong. His zanpakuto is only good for paralyzing enemies with its toxin and his bankai was destroyed by Ishida in Soul Society of all people, but he has so many other mad science gimmicks he doesn't need actual strength or fighting prowess. Who needs swordsmanship or power when you have Xanatos Gambits?

Ichigo is hard to place since they literally state his power level is wildly fluctuates depending on the fight, but I'd say on average I'd put him between Byakuya and Shunsui.

[Grumman]

Uh, it could also, you know, be 10 exactly.
There's not really such a thing as exactly equal in a real-life environment, once you're above the atomic scale. You can get pretty close, but 9.99999 is still less than 10, which is what's important.

[Tavar]

My (admittedly rather worthless) two cents on the subject of ranking captains
Soi Fong - She has the 2-hit-kill shikai, which is nice but once again more of a trick than actual fighting prowess, a bankai which can only damage an espada and requires a lot of assistance just to properly set up, and while she technically won most of her fights (except against Yoruichi), she does tend to have trouble in a lot of them, even in filler arcs (Yea, I know, filler doesn't count)


Actually, her Bankai only had problems against that espada because of his incredibly broken abilities. Plus, the Shikai requires her to hit the same spot twice, which is actually pretty difficult.

[Drolyt]

There's not really such a thing as exactly equal in a real-life environment, once you're above the atomic scale. You can get pretty close, but 9.99999 is still less than 10, which is what's important.

Practically yes, but theoretically you could have exactly 10. The fact that "astronomical odds" doesn't describe it is besides the point.

[Optimystik]

ice is naturally more dangerous than water, he could control the weather, he has a power she arbitrarily can't influence despite it being exactly the same as the billion others used in the fight. take your pick.

None of those seem particularly convincing to me.

He controls water, she controls water, what advantage?


He uses flash step against Byakuya, before unleashing Bankai. It's just that his Bankai allowed him to go even faster, though it supposedly did shatter his bones.

He also uses it against the lieutenants, when Renji is escaping with Rukia. He moves from the top of the Soukyoku and into their path in a split second, before beating them with his bare hands.


Actually, looking back, I remember this being said in the Anime. By Renji.

Only the manga is canon. The anime typically embellishes (e.g. Ishida having flashbacks to that Bounto crap while his father berates him, even though that never actually happened.)

So I consider Hitsugaya to have been able to defeat Shawlong with ease, had he not been limited at the beginning. The fact that he fights toe-to-toe with Harribel days later with no additional training backs me up.

[Drolyt]

So I consider Hitsugaya to have been able to defeat Shawlong with ease, had he not been limited at the beginning. The fact that he fights toe-to-toe with Harribel days later with no additional training backs me up.

Except, you know, Harribel kicks his ass.

[Tavar]

Only the manga is canon. The anime typically embellishes (e.g. Ishida having flashbacks to that Bounto crap while his father berates him, even though that never actually happened.)

So I consider Hitsugaya to have been able to defeat Shawlong with ease, had he not been limited at the beginning. The fact that he fights toe-to-toe with Harribel days later with no additional training backs me up.

True, but the anime actually supports what you say. Renji actually says something along the lines of "well, if I hadn't been limited, and thus been getting my ass kicked for the whole fight, I could have easily taken him. But because I was beaten up so much, I needed the surprised to win."

[Optimystik]

Except, you know, Harribel kicks his ass.

I take it you didn't read 359 or 364. In the first, Hitsugaya used his Bankai Uber Weather Control Ice Flower thing to completely lock her out of the fight, and in the second, Wonderweiss had to save her ass by breaking it. Had he not done so, she would have died even before Aizen decided he was done with her.

So yeah, totally wrong.


True, but the anime actually supports what you say. Renji actually says something along the lines of "well, if I hadn't been limited, and thus been getting my ass kicked for the whole fight, I could have easily taken him. But because I was beaten up so much, I needed the surprised to win."

Indeed, but we're talking about Hitsugaya's strength. I still rank him ahead of Komamura. (And Tousen now that you mention it.)

[Drolyt]

I take it you didn't read 359 or 364. In the first, Hitsugaya used his Bankai Uber Weather Control Ice Flower thing to completely lock her out of the fight, and in the second, Wonderweiss had to save her ass by breaking it. Had he not done so, she would have died even before Aizen decided he was done with her.

So yeah, totally wrong.

Fair enough. What this does show is that Hitsugaya is probably in fact one of the strongest captains, but as he said he is inexperienced, so he didn't know if that would work right or if he might catch some of his allies in the blast. But yeah, if it weren't for Wonderweiss Hallibel would probably have died right then and there.

[thubby]

I take it you didn't read 359 or 364. In the first, Hitsugaya used his Bankai Uber Weather Control Ice Flower thing to completely lock her out of the fight, and in the second, Wonderweiss had to save her ass by breaking it. Had he not done so, she would have died even before Aizen decided he was done with her.

So yeah, totally wrong.

freezing doesn't mean dead, or even lost. rukia froze grimjaw, who would have blown her head off but for the vizards.

[Tavar]

Indeed, but we're talking about Hitsugaya's strength. I still rank him ahead of Komamura. (And Tousen now that you mention it.)

Well, I was talking about the original quote, and backing you up in that Thubby was mistaken in regards to the evidence he quoted.

[Optimystik]

freezing doesn't mean dead, or even lost. rukia froze grimjaw, who would have blown her head off but for the vizards.

She had no way out, and a certain-death countdown. Big difference.

It's not like he was going to just leave her there frozen until the battle was over. She literally was going to die.

[thubby]

She had no way out, and a certain-death countdown. Big difference.

It's not like he was going to just leave her there frozen until the battle was over. She literally was going to die.

there's nothing certain about it. people have been frozen solid and survived, and it doesn't seem to be that damaging if it isn't an instant kill.

actually, so far as i recall, being frozen has only killed one person, and it was rukia freezing one of the fraction that attacked karakura.

[Drolyt]

there's nothing certain about it. people have been frozen solid and survived, and it doesn't seem to be that damaging if it isn't an instant kill.

actually, so far as i recall, being frozen has only killed one person, and it was rukia freezing one of the fraction that attacked karakura.

You are correct that we can't be absolutely certain it would have killed Harribel, but it wasn't just freezing. Hitsugaya said that ones the petals reached 100 (whatever the hell that even means) she would die. Not sure how, or what exactly it was supposed to do, but it seems it was more than just freezing.

[Optimystik]

there's nothing certain about it. people have been frozen solid and survived, and it doesn't seem to be that damaging if it isn't an instant kill.

actually, so far as i recall, being frozen has only killed one person, and it was rukia freezing one of the fraction that attacked karakura.

I'm not sure you should be refuting evidence you clearly haven't read. He says the ability will kill her when the flowers accumulate. This sounds very similar to Yumichika's ability (used to kill Charlotte Cuulhorne.)

[TheSummoner]

It is possible she could've escaped even without Wonderweiss though. It sure as hell would've been harder and taken longer to do from the inside of the ice. Kind of a stretch, but so is a Hitsugaya being stronger than Harribel... who later stood toe to toe against him and two vizards without any noticable trouble before Aizen could no longer restrain his puppy-kicking.

[thubby]

I'm not sure you should be refuting evidence you clearly haven't read. He says the ability will kill her when the flowers accumulate. This sounds very similar to Yumichika's ability (used to kill Charlotte Cuulhorne.)

you shouldn't assume something like that just because i disagree with you.

it does sound a lot like yumichika's ability, but then someone thinking their ability should kill. and it actually doing that, are two separate things.

[Drolyt]

Again, I think it is possible that Harribel might have escaped the ice without Wonderweiss' help, but we have no evidence for that. Hitsugaya obviously thought that his attack would kill her, and that's the clearest evidence we have. Arguing about something for which we have no real evidence either way except for Hitsugaya's word (which could be wrong) is entirely pointless.

[TheSummoner]

Like I said, its a stretch, but so is him winning against someone who just a little later had no noticable problem fighting 1 on 3 against him and two others of equal or greater power.

[Optimystik]

it does sound a lot like yumichika's ability, but then someone thinking their ability should kill. and it actually doing that, are two separate things.

It's still a very different effect from Rukia's vanilla freeze, so equating the two remains meaningless.


Like I said, its a stretch, but so is him winning against someone who just a little later had no noticable problem fighting 1 on 3 against him and two others of equal or greater power.

She survived one attack by the three of them before Aizen showed up to dispatch her. We can't judge her strength from that, especially when compared to a life-drain attack by Hitsugaya.

Again using Yumichika's ability as an example, life-drain attacks don't seem to operate off strength anyway. Yumichika is weaker than Hisagi (5th seat vs. Lieutenant) and has no hidden Bankai to set him apart, yet he beats him soundly. Later vs. Charlotte Cuulhorne, he is weaker again, and triumphs again.

So even if Hitsugaya was weaker than Harribel power-wise, that may not have mattered. I still rank him higher than Komamura.

[Drolyt]

Again using Yumichika's ability as an example, life-drain attacks don't seem to operate off strength anyway. Yumichika is weaker than Hisagi (5th seat vs. Lieutenant) and has no hidden Bankai to set him apart, yet he beats him soundly. Later vs. Charlotte Cuulhorne, he is weaker again, and triumphs again.


You have a strange definition of weaker/stronger. Yumichika was stronger than those two because he won. That's all there is to it. The fact that he was only able to win by using his uber ability is besides the point. Also Yumichika makes a huge point in his speech to Hisagi about why his 5th seat didn't matter. Yumichika wanted 3rd seat but what's his name the bald dude already took it. Yumichika decided 5 was prettier than 4. It's at least implied that both Yumichika and the bald dude were strong enough to be Liutenants but Kenpachi made that girl his Liutenant (it's not clear how powerful she is or if she is really more powerful than those two).

[TheSummoner]

I don't think rank is always a good gague of power... Just sticking with the squad 11 examples, lets look at their lieutenant... Yachiru, a little girl. While she is definatly stronger than she looks (able to carry Kenpachi for an example), she has never shown any combat prowess... or even been in a fight really... If it wasn't for her connection to Kenpachi, I doubt she'd hold that rank. Ikkaku has a bankai. Even as third seat, he is without a doubt stronger than any lieutenant with the possible exception of Renji, though hes still probably got Renji beat. Yumichika is only fifth seat by choice... because he finds the kanji for 4 ugly and because 3 belongs to Ikkaku. Yumichika also rarely uses even his Shikai because of the stigma it carries in squad 11. Ikkaku is undoubtably stronger than Yumichika, but that doesn't mean Yumichika isn't strong enough to be a lieutenant.

[Optimystik]

You have a strange definition of weaker/stronger. Yumichika was stronger than those two because he won. That's all there is to it.

Vs. Charlotte you may have a point, but Hisagi isn't as clear-cut. He very likely didn't fight at full strength (including releasing his zanpakuto) during his fight with Yumichika. Had he done so, Ruriio-Kujaku might not have gotten the better of him like it did. So it's quite possible that my theory holds there.

@TS - we can't really use Yachiru for anything until we know more about her, including whether or not she has Bankai.

[TheSummoner]

Even if you ignore Yachiru because her abilities are mostly an unknown, the other facts remain. Perhaps it was element of surprise that allowed Yumichika to beat Hisagi, but the fact remains that he won.

[Tavar]

@TS - we can't really use Yachiru for anything until we know more about her, including whether or not she has Bankai.
Of course she had Bankai. She calls it Ken-Chan.
What? I like that theory. It makes me laugh.

[Drolyt]

Of course she had Bankai. She calls it Ken-Chan.
What? I like that theory. It makes me laugh.

That theory is old. Awesome, but old nonetheless. The question is, if Kenpachi is her Bankai, then how is it that Kenpachi can appear without her being anywhere near him? Besides that Kenpachi appears to be constant, not summoned or anything, if he is Yachiru's Bankai then she is the only character known to be able to keep her Bankai active constantly.

[Optimystik]

Even if you ignore Yachiru because her abilities are mostly an unknown, the other facts remain. Perhaps it was element of surprise that allowed Yumichika to beat Hisagi, but the fact remains that he won.

...Which proves nothing. Ikkaku had Bankai and lost to Poww solely because he was unwilling to use it. The exact same principle applies here.

[Drolyt]

...Which proves nothing. Ikkaku had Bankai and lost to Poww solely because he was unwilling to use it. The exact same principle applies here.

Right, so we have no reason to suppose that Aizen is really stronger than Don Kanonji. Don Kanonji was obviously holding back against that weak Hollow that appeared to be way stronger than he was. Similarly we have no reason to believe that Yammamoto is stronger than Nanao Ise. She might have faked being overwhelmed by his spiritual force.

Seriously though, we have no evidence that Hisagi was holding back. No reason to think he was. Why would he? I think the Yumichicka > Hisagi thing is pretty damn set in stone myself.

[Tavar]

That theory is old. Awesome, but old nonetheless. The question is, if Kenpachi is her Bankai, then how is it that Kenpachi can appear without her being anywhere near him? Besides that Kenpachi appears to be constant, not summoned or anything, if he is Yachiru's Bankai then she is the only character known to be able to keep her Bankai active constantly.

You're right. He's obviously her Shikai. After all, Ichigo has a constant release shikai, so we know it's possible...At this point I'm just running with it

With Hisagi, how about the fact that he didn't release his sword? Seems to be holding back.

[TheSummoner]

We didn't see the fight, how do you know he didn't release?

Hisagi knows the fight is lieutenant vs a 5th seat. Initially, he thinks there is no reason to release... that it would be an easy victory. Yumichika explains that he would be third seat if that rank didn't already belong to Ikkaku (and that fourth is unthinkable to him). Yumichika then releases and attacks. Cut to later where Hisagi is so drained that he is unable to move.

How do you know that he didn't release when he Yumichika proved to be a threat? What makes you think he would simply stand there and take a beating without doing something thats pretty much necessary for defending yourself? Or maybe Yumichika had defeated Hisagi before Hisagi even had the chance to release... but if that were the case, in what sence is Yumichika weaker? Which is it? Did Hisagi stand there and not even try to defend himself or did Yumichika beat Hisagi before he had the chance to?

If you were to order the non-captain shinigami from strongest to weakest, Hisagi would probably be pretty close to the top, but theres plenty of evidence that Yumichika would be right up there too.

Edit: For the luls, I decided to put them in order based on my own perception...

1) Ikkaku*
2) Renji
3) Rukia**
4) Yumichika*
5) Hisagi*
6) Kira*
7) Rangiku
8) Nemu
9) Hinamori

Not enough information to place properly) The Squad 1 Lieutenant that never seems to do anything worth having his name remembered, Isane, Iba, Nanao

Dead Last) Omaeda

Intentionally excluded) Ichigo

Not worth noting) Anyone else

*In the battle against Aizen, these four were tasked with guarding the four pillars. It makes sence that the four given that task would be the four strongest available... Captains excluded because they would be focused on the espada. Ikkaku and Renji are the only two non-captains known to have a Bankai, so of the four, he would have to be strongest. Yumichika beat Hisagi so he would be higher on the list. Though I don't remember the exact dialogue, in the Renji/Hinamori/Kira training flashbacks, Hisagi was presented as being very advanced which leads me to believe hes stronger than Kira.

**Though it was incredibly close and partially because of luck, Rukia did manage to kill an espada. She also has the power of plot on her side due to being a main character. This is why I put her higher than anyone who doesn't have a bankai. However, I could see her being weaker than Yumichika or Hisagi... shes almost definatly got Kira beat though.