Crawl 0.6.0

[Ponce]

So a new version of Crawl has been released. I have some complaints.

-Overhaul of the EV/AC system. (Or, the Armour Nerf)
Mainly, the Light/Heavy armour distinction is gone. What's this mean? Well, Heavy armour no longer grants guaranteed damage shaving. Previous to 0.6.0, heavy armour was guaranteed to shave at least 2*(Base Armour Rarting + Armour Skill)%, capped at your AC, or 50, whichever is lower. This is removed completely, you just get 1d{AC}-1 damage shaving. This means that even with Crystal Plate Mail and an armour skill of 27, you are still quite likely to shave only a negligible amount of incoming damage, or even none at all.

This is further compounded by the fact that armour now also gives an attack speed penalty IN ADDITION to the accuracy penalty you receive. While both of these can be reduced by the Armour skill, they can never be eliminated.

Furthermore, characters train dodge and evasion even if they wear what was previously identified as heavy armour. The only way to prevent this is to apparently overstuff your inventory (??). It may mean that the armour item weight is what is considered, but regardless, it is very silly. This essentially means that armour users are forced to waste xp on dodge and stealth.

On the whole, contrast this new system with the old one in which people wearing armour trained armour, and people without armour trained dodge. Armour defended you better because it also penalized your attacks. Now armour is as unreliable as evasion while also giving you even larger attack penalties and is even harder to train.

-Total removal of the Divination Spell School.
Yep. Detect Creatures, Detect Items, Identify, Magic Mapping... as spells? Gone. The whole skill is gone. This means you have ZERO capacity to prepare for what might be around the corner and removes a number of useful utility spells. I have no idea why this was done, given that Divination is a core feature of the fantasy genre, not just roguelikes. Divination is the expert's favourite tool. Why on earth would you get rid of it?

-New Initiative System
You go. I go. You go. I go. That's how the system used to work. Now it spices things up by occasionally giving the monsters a double turn, followed by giving the player a double turn, or vice-versa. What does this mean? It means that you can't column-dance with that ogre or hydra anymore. It will get to move twice eventually, and when it does, you die. The activation of this seems to be random, so you have no way of telling when it will happen. Sometimes a monster chasing you will fall a square behind for a turn. Sometimes they will get a free hit. This, despite the fact that they are the same speed as the player. Perhaps it is supposed to give you a chance to get up the stairs? It is much more likely to kill you.

-New Uniques
Some of the new uniques put Sigmund to shame. The strongest example is a new early-game unique Mummy. You'll probably meet him at around D:5 or in one of the new side-mini-vaults. He hits harder than an orc warrior. He has a death curse (being a mummy). He also casts. Doesn't sound to bad? Well, he casts pain. Not a big deal. He also casts haste. Ouch. This is harsh, considering how powerful his attack is. He also casts... Torment. Yeah, Torment. There are a few other new Specials around with a few rather irritating abilities. Some of them are cute, but I think some of them really go overboard.

All in all, I'm pretty disappointed. The above changes really damaged the game, in my opinion, and I've since stopped playing it online (or at all). This is a real shame since there were a few other changes that really polished the game, like the removal of random start stats and hp/mp gain, as well as new, interesting gods. But... I've been puzzling over what the heck could have motived these changes, but am coming up blank.

Discuss.

[KBF]

Um. And.. What is this..? Googling "Crawl" doesn't help very much.

[Aragehaor]

Um. And.. What is this..? Googling "Crawl" doesn't help very much.

I believe he means the new version of Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup. I havent tried the new version yet so i have nothing else to say here.

[Dave Hartwick]

Sounds like the dev team listened to the people who said Crawl was too easy. I guess the armor nerf was because some players said mountain dwarf fighters were too easy. The new initiative system could've been because some consider pillar dancing too easy. The new uniques are probably just sadism, though.

I haven't won a game of crawl since it was still in version 3.4 or thereabouts. You can bet your butt I don't think it's too easy. I have the earlier versions still on my hard drive, so maybe I'll go back to playing them.

[BlackSheep]

The new potions irk me, too. While I can still count on getting a handful of healing potions, I get way fewer heal wounds potions.

[Milskidasith]

Here's a simple idea: Read the dev logs for why things were removed.

Divination was removed because it A: made scrolls of divination spells useless, B: because it had no combat utility, like other magic, and C: because it allowed mages to do yet another thing fighters couldn't, and made the game too predictable. That's what the dev logs stated.

[Dr.Feelgood]

So a new version of Crawl has been released. I have some complaints.

-Overhaul of the EV/AC system. (Or, the Armour Nerf)
-Total removal of the Divination Spell School.
-New Initiative System
-New Uniques
All in all, I'm pretty disappointed. The above changes really damaged the game, in my opinion, and I've since stopped playing it online (or at all). This is a real shame since there were a few other changes that really polished the game, like the removal of random start stats and hp/mp gain, as well as new, interesting gods. But... I've been puzzling over what the heck could have motived these changes, but am coming up blank.
Discuss.

1) The devs realized that they nerfed armour too heavily, so they'll try to fix it in 0.7.
2) Divination made some items useless. A few of those spells managed to survive the cutting block. It doesn't really matter, since there's going to be a divination god in 0.7.
3) Speed randomization actually makes the game easier most of the time.
4)Most of the uniques weren't hard or interesting in 0.5, so the devs removed several of them and added 14 new uniques. IMO the only new uniques that are difficult are Mara and Aizul.

Overall, Crawl is still easier than most roguelikes. 0.6 is harder than the previous versions, but none of the changes made it more difficult for me to win (I won twice last week).

[factotum]

Sounds like the dev team listened to the people who said Crawl was too easy.

Speaking as someone who's never had a Crawl character into double-digit levels, I find that bizarre. Yes, I'm sure the people who are really good at this sort of game maybe find it a bit easy, but people like me who find any Roguelike frustratingly difficult are just going to get put off by changes whose whole purpose is to make the game harder!

[Dave Hartwick]

Overall, Crawl is still easier than most roguelikes. 0.6 is harder than the previous versions, but none of the changes made it more difficult for me to win (I won twice last week).

Not in my experience, which, when it comes to major roguelikes, is mostly ADOM. However, I got the impression that the way Angband's levels work allows one to re-run levels as long as one pleases and that winning NetHack isn't terribly hard provided one gets thoroughly spoiled. ADOM was tough for me but I've seen a lot of ridiculous challenges beat-- like winning while still first level, for instance. I guess it could be called highly exploitable. I quit playing ADOM because I got so side tracked by things like mining and farming I figured I'd never get around to actually winning the dang thing.

The short form RLs I've played tend to be relatively easy. So which RLs are harder than Crawl?

[Ponce]

1) The devs realized that they nerfed armour too heavily, so they'll try to fix it in 0.7.
2) Divination made some items useless. A few of those spells managed to survive the cutting block. It doesn't really matter, since there's going to be a divination god in 0.7.
3) Speed randomization actually makes the game easier most of the time.
4)Most of the uniques weren't hard or interesting in 0.5, so the devs removed several of them and added 14 new uniques. IMO the only new uniques that are difficult are Mara and Aizul.

Overall, Crawl is still easier than most roguelikes. 0.6 is harder than the previous versions, but none of the changes made it more difficult for me to win (I won twice last week).

1) It could be a long time before that happens. Until then, one of the fundamental skills in the game is very underpowered. I like that they are going to bring it back up, but I didn't think it needed a nerf in the first place.
3) I think this depends on the player. For most, this means no pillar dancing. I've died twice to "surprise" hydras already (one coming down the stairs, one around a corner). Maybe I'm just not used to it, but the speed of the monsters was one of few things you could rely on.
4) The new Uniques ARE very interesting. But Torment that early is a bit ludicrous. The elf twins are also lethal if you aren't aware of the berserk mechanic.


Divination was removed because it A: made scrolls of divination spells useless, B: because it had no combat utility, like other magic, and C: because it allowed mages to do yet another thing fighters couldn't, and made the game too predictable. That's what the dev logs stated.

On Divination: Why is rendering items useless a bad thing? Should we get rid of mummies because they render food and potions useless? It doesn't render them useless for everyone, just those who choose to cast divination spells. What about crystal balls or racial magic mapping abilities?

Further, why does a spell have to have direct combat utility? This is more a question of philosophy, but lots of interesting possibilities are removed if only combat-direct spells are considered.

Divination is also the easiest school to use while being a non-mage.

Why not just raise the spell level costs or lower the effectiveness of the spell? It seems that they're going to keep most of the abilities, just not as spells.

Again, though, I like a number of the other improvements. The mummy buff, for example, and the new mini-vaults.

[Milskidasith]

On Divination: Why is rendering items useless a bad thing? Should we get rid of mummies because they render food and potions useless? It doesn't render them useless for everyone, just those who choose to cast divination spells. What about crystal balls or racial magic mapping abilities?

Divination renders things useless for no cost. You don't even need to put experience into divinations, because unlike, say, iron shot, where failing to use it could be deadly, having detect secret doors at poor still means you can cast it for a while and detect all secret doors. Everything else in the game has tradeoffs; mummies have terrible stats and growths and can't use potions in exchange for no food clock, deep dwarves have damage resistance and good stats in exchange for not healing naturally, deep elves are absurd at magic and very squishy, stabbing allows you to kill stuff easier at the expense of requiring lots of EXP in it and stealth (and using daggers for the best stabbings), divination allows you to make the game predictable in exchange for... the EXP it takes to get divinations to level 1? Not really a tradeoff.


Further, why does a spell have to have direct combat utility? This is more a question of philosophy, but lots of interesting possibilities are removed if only combat-direct spells are considered.


Because spells which you cast out of combat, while being nowhere near combat, encourage putting minimal points in the skill, turning it off, and ignoring the miscast effects, *especially* if you have Sif Muna. If you've got Sif Muna protecting you from miscasts, I'd want one point in divinations, if that much, and just spend a few hundred turns failing to cast Detect Creatures. Does that seem exploitable to you? It's not like melee classes can say "I want to get all the benefits of using a mace, but put all my points into axes anyway" while mages can say "I want more necromancy and conjurations and transmutations and translocations, while getting all the benefits of divination!"


Divination is also the easiest school to use while being a non-mage.

Which is the problem. Divination is the school where you only need one point in spellcasting, one point in divination, and (maybe) the ability to murder things for food, and you can cast every divination spell if you cast long enough.


Why not just raise the spell level costs or lower the effectiveness of the spell? It seems that they're going to keep most of the abilities, just not as spells.

Because that doesn't solve the problem? Magic mapping becomes a higher level and weaker spell.... so I eat an extra ration, take a bit longer to cast it, and cast it two or three times to know the whole level layout.

[Dr.Feelgood]

The short form RLs I've played tend to be relatively easy. So which RLs are harder than Crawl?

I meant Crawl is easier than most major roguelikes. I never played a short form RL. I beat Crawl in 3 weeks. Then, I won several times after that in a few months. A newbie game reviewer almost beat the game in a day. The best Crawl players have obscene win rates compared to other major roguelikes.

Roguelikes that are harder than Crawl?

Nethack - It took me 3 months to beat it, while completely spoiled. My 2nd win took me another month. The best Nethack and Crawl player, Stabwound, has less Nethack wins than Crawl wins.

ADOM - It's probably going to take me a few months to beat it.

IVAN - I never won. It's apparently the hardest roguelike to win without being cheesy.

@Ponce

Devs talk about Divination (http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/play-testing-hit-me-with-your-dowsing-rod#more-989)

0.7 is coming out in August. If the AC nerf makes the game that much harder for you, then try playing the 0.7 alpha (http://crawl.develz.org/trunk/).

[Dave Hartwick]

I meant Crawl is easier than most major roguelikes. I never played a short form RL. I beat Crawl in 3 weeks. Then, I won several times after that in a few months. A newbie game reviewer almost beat the game in a day. The best Crawl players have obscene win rates compared to other major roguelikes.

Well, you obviously like roguelikes, so you probably would enjoy some of the short form RLs. DoomRL is the usual suggestion, but I've been enjoying Desktop Dungeons lately.

Now, about you beating Crawl quicker than you beat NetHack, which did you play first? NetHack is better known, and people often play that first. So if you've developed a set of strategies in NH and they work in Crawl, well, yeah, you'll probably beat Crawl quicker than you beat NetHack. I can think of at least one prominent example of a player migrating to Crawl partly because he found NH too easy. (http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/the-dawn-of-stone-soup)

I just found it surprising to run into somebody who figures Crawl is one of the easier RLs, when my usual experience used to be people quipping "Crawl wants you dead" on Usenet. Despite that, I've been aware for a while that there are players who beat the snot out of Crawl. I'm all in favor of the dev team stamping out exploits, but I wish they wouldn't fret about the game being too easy, because as I said earlier, it's been ages since I won. I suspect that the people racking up freaky wins probably have a lot more time to spend on Crawl than I ever will (or would want), have a much better understanding of how the game works because they can read code, and/or suffer from OCD. I tried arguing once that the game-- particularly how combat works, exactly-- should be more transparent, but the dev who responded seemed to consider that spoiler information.

This is also the first time I ever ran into the assertion that IVAN is a major RL, but it's been a long while since I looked at IVAN. I'd suspect, though, that something like POWDER probably has more players. Hard to tell. Usually the big three of roguelikes was listed as ADOM, NetHack, and AngBand, with Crawl considered a minor.